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Creative Corner => Campaign Settings and World-Building => Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) => Super Robot Wars d20 => Topic started by: oslecamo on September 13, 2012, 04:59:06 PM

Title: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 13, 2012, 04:59:06 PM
Ideas, questions and other similiar stuff goes here.

Topic of the week, get some setting fluff done! My current plan for now will be to shamelessly copy from the SRW OG setting, mix in some fantasy/D&D stereotypes, a touch of my own madness and see what happens.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: The-Mage-King on September 13, 2012, 10:30:13 PM
I suggest that you change the second post in the "Intro/Mech basics" thread to read like the following (yes, I'm still proofing. Because TYYYYPPOOOOOOOSSSSS!).


A note about mecha scale:
(click to show/hide)

Mecha Combat basics
(click to show/hide)


Combat between mechas and non-mechas.
(click to show/hide)

 :P


In the case of the fort save, liken it to a Massive Damage save. Makes sense.


I'll proof stuffs.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 14, 2012, 12:19:34 PM
Edited in your version, thanks!

Also, reduced the save DC to 15+Damage taken since 20+Damage taken felt a little too much in retrospective.

I'm not sure I get your "liken it to a Massive Damage save" comment. I didn't use massive damage rules because they're non-scaling, and I wanted to make it harder to resist, say, a WildWurger's Beetle Crusher than a simple Gespent's Punch.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: The-Mage-King on September 14, 2012, 12:50:29 PM
I mean add something saying that it's treated as massive damage for the purposes of saves.


Because I'm pretty sure there are a few things that give bonuses to saves v. massive damage, so...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Garryl on September 14, 2012, 12:54:43 PM
Edited in your version, thanks!

Also, reduced the save DC to 15+Damage taken since 20+Damage taken felt a little too much in retrospective.

I'm not sure I get your "liken it to a Massive Damage save" comment. I didn't use massive damage rules because they're non-scaling, and I wanted to make it harder to resist, say, a WildWurger's Beetle Crusher than a simple Gespent's Punch.

Isn't that what losing hit points from damage taken is supposed to represent? Joe F. Soldier is going to die, save or not, from taking so much damage. But should Bear Grylls ß, the time-traveling cyborg commando archmage who fights with dragons and wrestles with Cthulhu really be taken out by a piece of steel just because it's 100 times his size?

With the current rules, unless you're fighting a mecha much lower level than you, you'll generally only make the save on a natural 20. With the reduced DC, you might make it from time to time at lower levels, but at higher levels damage still scales much faster than saving throws.

Edit: Actually, having looked at the damage values, I think I'm incorrect, at least at mid levels. I'll have to run the numbers properly when I have the chance. I'm still heavily against SoDs on every attack regardless, though.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: The-Mage-King on September 14, 2012, 01:07:37 PM
Hm... Why not make it DC 15 as base, scaling up with mecha size/Pilot level?



So a 1st level mech forces a DC 15 save, but a 10th level mech forces a DC 20? Or similar.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 14, 2012, 02:30:17 PM
I did tried to make the mecha damage don't scale too fast, so the save DCs shouldn't increase too much either (and remember you need to actually hit the target to force them to sav).

Making the saves DC just based on mecha size/Pilot would mean you rather use your smaller, faster firing weapons to deal with non-mecha targets. Which kinda makes sense now that I think about it.

Or perhaps I could simply make it that mechas deal 10x damage against non-mecha opponents (after DR), just as they take just 1/10th the damage from others (before DR).

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Prime32 on September 15, 2012, 04:47:12 PM
Problems with the mecha vs non-mecha rules:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCVLF3-KuAI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ktk8ic3yfiw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awkMHi28E-4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YpJG3AcrtY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSxMI2iP8PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gFpVUcIvmI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdaGIFFT3e8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAizwLfZbUA

Also
Note: Mecha Mooks as PCs

This class is intended for NPC enemies, but it should be fine for a player to use it, as long as they're fine playing with 5 characters that can just perform basic attacks, whitout spirits/maneuvers or anything else but basic attacks, plus a lot of dead levels.
Well depending on how you handle multiclassing... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kh7uBEJbnE)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 15, 2012, 06:49:42 PM
Those are some pretty persuassive arguments, so I removed both save-or-die and damage multipliers/reducers between mechas and non-mechas. The giant robots still have the advantage of bigger speed/reach and range, but if that warblade gets near that gespent, he'll crack it open with a good Stone Hammer now.

Also I can't believe I made the Mecha Mook class and didn't remember he could make the perfect basis for your usual 5-man team! Right now they tecnically can't multiclass, but will most definetely work on something along that line. Perhaps multiclass feats of some sort? You start as a squad of 5 mooks, then 2nd level Super Robot multiclass and can combine plus starting to get spirits and maneuvers.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: fye121 on March 09, 2013, 10:13:25 PM
I got a question. Maybe i miss it but what is the kind of action to reload ranged weapon using ammo?
Example: If i shot all 12 shot form the Mega beam riffle to reload it is a standard action , a full-action ?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on March 12, 2013, 06:59:24 AM
Fullround action, clarified it in the Real Robot list weapon section.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 25, 2013, 04:34:41 PM
Added in capstones for Real and Super pilots, plus a few more arsenal options.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 25, 2013, 04:41:04 PM
Does the Super Pilot ability let you have an extra Growth (to Colossal+)?

... 10d10 weapon with a plus 20 to hit and a 16-20 crit range. x3. That's... quite a lot. @_@
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 25, 2013, 05:28:26 PM
It also takes a lot of arsenal space and doesn't have Power/Rending.

Being able to go over specific HD caps wasn't intended, clarified.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on April 26, 2013, 01:01:42 AM
How do we get in/out of a mecha (sans the emergency escape pod)? Required action, mostly.
Can we fight with the cockpit open to have line of effect to our enemies at normal scale from within? (probably allowing them to damage you directly)?
How much spare space to store stuff within a mecha of your size in Mu, if enough space, can it have passengers? (On your lap, if needs be). Or even more than one pilot without becoming a ship. (a-la power rangers' combined super mecha)
Can a mecha be disabled so as to neutralize its pilot without destroying it?


Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on April 26, 2013, 01:21:53 AM
Could a shield arsenal item and/or upgrade be created? Some mecha use them.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 26, 2013, 05:51:05 AM
Good point on geting in/out, added it in.

The cocpkit isn't meant just to protect the pilot. It's also meant to protect the delicate control mechanisms. Anyone foolish enough to fight with an open cockpit can and will have his mecha instantly disabled the first time any enemy with two brain cells/transistors fires at them.

Clarified "storage space".

If the pilot is weak enough, you may able to knock him down with crits before the mecha itself is destroyed. Otherwise they're kinda stuck.

Could a shield arsenal item and/or upgrade be created? Some mecha use them.
Usually as in-built stuff.

Added a bunch of shields. Also buffed up the higher arsenals that grant a bonus to attack rolls.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Clanjos on April 26, 2013, 01:59:00 PM
Is there a feasible way to emulate interchangeable parts in battle, such as with Steel Jeeg? Or mechs that combine?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on April 26, 2013, 02:01:36 PM
Sad we can't go Kira Yamato-style and disable mechas left and right. Maybe some kind of mecha non-lethal damage.

Also, what about attacks that damage only living beings?
Do they affect pilots directly or do a mecha counts as living for the purpose of taking hits for the pilot. Or does the pilot count as non-living while inside a mecha?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 26, 2013, 02:27:27 PM
Is there a feasible way to emulate interchangeable parts in battle, such as with Steel Jeeg? Or mechs that combine?

That would fall in the "under development" part. :p

Sad we can't go Kira Yamato-style and disable mechas left and right. Maybe some kind of mecha non-lethal damage.
How you finish off an opponent's mecha is up to you. By all means claim you're just disabling key parts instead of exploding it into atoms. There's no pratical diference as far as destroyed mecha rules care.

Also, what about attacks that damage only living beings?
Do they affect pilots directly or do a mecha counts as living for the purpose of taking hits for the pilot. Or does the pilot count as non-living while inside a mecha?
Both shrug it off. Half the reason of encasing yourself in a massive steel coffin filled with unstable stuff is because at least it keeps pesky chemical weapons/ low radiations away.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on April 26, 2013, 07:27:05 PM
Besides the possibility to salvage the mecha.
By the way, when a mecha is destroyed, does the pod ejection's movement provokes an AoO?
Would the escape pod contain the storage space or is it lost in the wreckage?

It might be better if the storage space was static.
You don't want crazy strong characters with ridiculous light loads carrying buildings in their mecha.  :blush

It might be a good idea to have a general table of mecha functions here instead of splitting them between real and super.
It feels odd to have to go in the real robot page to find information on how super robots work. Like how energy is recharged.

Also, are androids ageless or do they eventually waste away?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 26, 2013, 07:33:28 PM
I see no problem with that. What's wrong with using mecha to transport buildings? :???
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on April 26, 2013, 07:45:45 PM
Nothing wrong with it if the mecha is carrying the building, like, in its arms.

If the building somehow magically fits inside the mecha... the laws of physics would like a word with you.

Also, it makes no sense the other way around, either. I'm a small sized character so there is somehow less space inside my mecha than there would be if I was bigger?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 26, 2013, 07:57:44 PM
Quote
Nothing wrong with it if the mecha is carrying the building, like, in its arms.

If the building somehow magically fits inside the mecha... the laws of physics would like a word with you.

Given that one show (Getter Robo Armageddon, I'm told) has "So much for the laws of physics!" as pretty much an exact quote, I still don't see the issue. Mecha break physics by dint of being human in shape. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Prime32 on April 26, 2013, 08:42:45 PM
(click to show/hide)
Sorry, but this is bugging me.

That name (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newtype) refers to humans who have developed psychic powers, usually implied to be the next stage in evolution. UC Gundam calls them Newtypes, Gundam SEED calls it "enhanced spatial awareness" (Mu La Flaga's thing, not to be confused with Coordinators or the SEED Factor), Gundam 00 calls them True Innovators, Gundam AGE calls them X-Rounders, and Super Robot Wars OG calls them Psychodrivers (or just Psychics).

They have battle precognition at low levels, large-scale mind links at high levels, and can use special psychic equipment which improves their mech's power and response time (especially in response to strong emotions), or generates forcefields, or lets them control remote weapons like funnels (sometimes via telekinesis, but usually they're just too complex for normal pilots to handle without AI assistance). The closest D&D equivalent to awakening as a Newtype would be taking Psychic Warrior (or War Mind) levels.

The term is established enough that it's the name of a magazine, so using it for an artificial human is just confusing...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 27, 2013, 08:42:43 AM
Besides the possibility to salvage the mecha.
The art of salvaging technology has improved quite a lot with the advancment of mechas and their increased destructive power. :p

By the way, when a mecha is destroyed, does the pod ejection's movement provokes an AoO?
No, clarified.

Would the escape pod contain the storage space or is it lost in the wreckage?
The "storage space" is free room inside the cockpit, so it's not lost.

It might be better if the storage space was static.
Not when pilots can have so much space as the mecha itself.

You don't want crazy strong characters with ridiculous light loads carrying buildings in their mecha.  :blush
Please, ever since the first Phantasy Star the characters were storing tank-fortresses on their pockets. :P

If your human-sized character is strong enough to carry a building as a light load, then screw it, he can find a way of fitting it inside his cockpit's spare space.

It might be a good idea to have a general table of mecha functions here instead of splitting them between real and super.
It feels odd to have to go in the real robot page to find information on how super robots work. Like how energy is recharged.
Dully noted.

Also, are androids ageless or do they eventually waste away?
An highly debated question. It's well known that androids can go on for centuries with basic maintenance, but most of the time they end up wrecked by some exterior force, so there's lack of data for long-term survival.  There's some records of Androids going for long periods of activity whitout stopping and/or maintenance that will indeed waste themselves down in less than half a millenia. If put under continuous stress they may not even last a century. The "longest-lived" android in known history would be Wren, that pops up in several major events that span over 5000 years, but many scholars claim that there's actually been not one but multiple "Wrens", all built as close in resemblance to its predecessor as possible.

Nothing wrong with it if the mecha is carrying the building, like, in its arms.

If the building somehow magically fits inside the mecha... the laws of physics would like a word with you.

Also, it makes no sense the other way around, either. I'm a small sized character so there is somehow less space inside my mecha than there would be if I was bigger?
Yes. Mechas are customized to the pilot. A smaller pilot will get a smaller cockpit, any leftover space will be spent in extra stablizing systems to stop him/her from being squashed like a bug against a windshield when the mecha moves.

(click to show/hide)
Sorry, but this is bugging me.

That name (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newtype) refers to humans who have developed psychic powers, usually implied to be the next stage in evolution. UC Gundam calls them Newtypes, Gundam SEED calls it "enhanced spatial awareness" (Mu La Flaga's thing, not to be confused with Coordinators or the SEED Factor), Gundam 00 calls them True Innovators, Gundam AGE calls them X-Rounders, and Super Robot Wars OG calls them Psychodrivers (or just Psychics).

They have battle precognition at low levels, large-scale mind links at high levels, and can use special psychic equipment which improves their mech's power and response time (especially in response to strong emotions), or generates forcefields, or lets them control remote weapons like funnels (sometimes via telekinesis, but usually they're just too complex for normal pilots to handle without AI assistance). The closest D&D equivalent to awakening as a Newtype would be taking Psychic Warrior (or War Mind) levels.

The term is established enough that it's the name of a magazine, so using it for an artificial human is just confusing...
Changed it to Numan then (Newearl for females, Newman for males).

As an aside, the easiest way of representing a psychodriver would be just to pick up Hidden Talent.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Nanshork on April 27, 2013, 02:56:24 PM
Every time you edit the Mecha Basics post I have to go through it and figure out what you changed.  :P

Edit: What does the Accel Spirit actually do?  I'm assuming it adds that distance to your movement speed but it doesn't actually say.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on April 27, 2013, 03:30:30 PM
Alright. Thanks.

Does it mean an Android can take the Ancient Temple discipline?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 27, 2013, 04:54:39 PM
Yes. Tales of the hungry ghost mistress and her blades have crossed the stars to other worlds.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on April 27, 2013, 05:17:14 PM
Neat.
Hm, is there a way to increase Upgrade points for Super Robots that I have missed?

The Nanomachine and Mysterious Powers need 5 upgrade points for their last version, but since all upgrade points must be spent as soon as they are acquired, they cannot be saved to gain more than 4 points to pay for them.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on April 27, 2013, 05:24:15 PM
Might be a good idea to allow Super Pilots to switch around their upgrades at some point (possibly every level?) which would also answer the above question.

Quote from: Mecha vs Non Mecha Combat
A mecha can choose to use a single-target weapon to damage all non-mecha  targets smaller than himself in a single 5 mu square.

How does this work? Is it an attack or a damaging area effect? If the former is it a single roll compared to all ACs or multiple rolls? If the latter, is there a save and what is it?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 27, 2013, 05:28:55 PM
Recovering 40% of your max HP every round is already pretty strong, so I'll just cap it at that and call it a day. Changed the example as well.

Area attack you roll once and compare against the AC of everybody inside.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 27, 2013, 05:33:13 PM
Ships have HD? :huh

Kind of amusing that they start off with Arsenal space but can't get anything in there until level 4.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 27, 2013, 05:46:26 PM
You could earlier if you were a multiclass. :p

Fixed typo.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on April 27, 2013, 10:18:06 PM
What happens to a Super Robot when its pilot dies in a manner that does not damage the robot?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 28, 2013, 04:29:45 AM
Evidently it will lay in wait of a new hotblooded pilot to pick it up and slowly work to unlock its full potential again. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on April 28, 2013, 04:45:56 AM
When you get your mecha destroyed and do the redeeming quest, do you have to get the same mecha as the one that was destroyed?

Also, can an Android use One With the Machine with a Moon Vanguard's nanoarmor?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 28, 2013, 05:31:48 AM
You can get a new mecha.

I'll say yes to Android with nano armor as well.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on April 28, 2013, 08:41:58 AM
Thanks.
Just to make sure I get One With the Machine, is the mecha's own hp 'saved' while the android takes the hits? As if, when it leaves the ability, it gets back to the hp it had before OwtM.
I could be that the damage
If so, is the mecha destroyed when the android's hp reaches zero or is the mecha getting its 'saved' hp back when the android dies within it?

You also made me notice that bit about Mecha weapons always counting as [Force] effects whenever it would be benefical for them.
Does that mean that by counting as a force effects, their damage can also count as force damage?

Because if that is so, all mecha weapons can bypass DR altogether.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 28, 2013, 02:55:34 PM
One With the Machine replaces the mecha's HP. That means that yes if the android exits the mecha, it gets back to the HP it had before.

However if the mecha is reduced to 0 HP while One With the Machine is active, the mecha is destroyed regardless of how much HP it normally had. The android may still be kicking if it didn't drop below -9.

Put in clause that mecha weapons counting as force effects doesn't make them bypass DR.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on April 28, 2013, 07:58:40 PM
Evidently it will lay in wait of a new hotblooded pilot to pick it up and slowly work to unlock its full potential again. :p

How does this interact with this passage from Super Pilot?

Quote
If you're piloting another person's super robot (either burrowed or stolen), you can use any maneuvers that super robot knows without you knowing them yourself, but you use the super robot's level instead of your own level for the purposes of those maneuvers.

Does a Super Robot stop being "yours" when you die?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on April 28, 2013, 11:06:52 PM
Speaking of which, I just thought of something; if you have the leadership feat or otherwise gain the ability to have followers or apprentices. Can they have levels in Mecha Mook?
It could be interesting to go in their junk-mecha with them when you're in a bind when yours blow up or if you don't have a mecha to begin with.

Also, on the subject of Relationship feats, what happens if the person you chose when you took the feat dies or if you stop having the required feeling for that person.
Those feat have no actual requirement and so do not need you to still have the relevant feelings to still work, and a dead selected one may still be returned to life. Normally.
Still, is there a process by which this feat may be realigned to someone else?
This would be quite useful in these kind of online pbp games when you never know if the player whose character you linked yourself to won't go MIA for months without warning.
Otherwise the safest targets of those feats would be DMPCs and cohorts.

The Extra upgrade option of the Super Robot grants an extra in-built weapon. Where do we select those? The Arsenal? If so, is that extra weapon taking arsenal space as well?

Mighty refers to a main weapon. How do we determine which is the main weapon? Even the Real Robot don't seem to have one.

Sentient; Supporting states that the robot itself provides bonuses. It seems to imply that the robot is spending the immediate action, not the pilot, and can more or less grant those once per round even if the pilot is inside it.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on April 29, 2013, 07:27:42 AM
Quote
Stealth:The mecha can hide whitout actualy having anything to hide behind, even in the middle of the sky or the empty space.

Can this basically be taken to mean that it works as the Hide in Plain Sight feature?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on April 29, 2013, 05:11:16 PM
The Extra upgrade option of the Super Robot grants an extra in-built weapon. Where do we select those? The Arsenal? If so, is that extra weapon taking arsenal space as well?

It means an extra basic weapon of the type described in the Super Robot base stats spoiler. That is, it's a melee weapon with base damage of 1d6+str.

Mighty refers to a main weapon. How do we determine which is the main weapon? Even the Real Robot don't seem to have one.

Main Weapon is an upgrade.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on April 29, 2013, 06:31:22 PM
Ah, I see! Thanks. Totally makes sense.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 29, 2013, 06:44:43 PM
Evidently it will lay in wait of a new hotblooded pilot to pick it up and slowly work to unlock its full potential again. :p

How does this interact with this passage from Super Pilot?

Quote
If you're piloting another person's super robot (either burrowed or stolen), you can use any maneuvers that super robot knows without you knowing them yourself, but you use the super robot's level instead of your own level for the purposes of those maneuvers.

Does a Super Robot stop being "yours" when you die?
Yes. Just like the rest of your posessions.

Speaking of which, I just thought of something; if you have the leadership feat or otherwise gain the ability to have followers or apprentices. Can they have levels in Mecha Mook?
It could be interesting to go in their junk-mecha with them when you're in a bind when yours blow up or if you don't have a mecha to begin with.
Yes. Can't say it is very safe to fly around in one of those yourself tough, may be better to just get into an ally's mecha.

Also, on the subject of Relationship feats, what happens if the person you chose when you took the feat dies or if you stop having the required feeling for that person.
Those feat have no actual requirement and so do not need you to still have the relevant feelings to still work, and a dead selected one may still be returned to life. Normally.
Still, is there a process by which this feat may be realigned to someone else?
This would be quite useful in these kind of online pbp games when you never know if the player whose character you linked yourself to won't go MIA for months without warning.
Otherwise the safest targets of those feats would be DMPCs and cohorts.
Easy retraining would kinda defeat the whole idea behind "Strong feelings give you power".

There's regular retraining feats in a splat somewhere are they not? I believe those would work well for geting over an old love/rivarly/friendship.

Also I already pointed out absent PCs can be controlled by active PCs. Having a relationship feat would actually give you priority on that.

Sentient; Supporting states that the robot itself provides bonuses. It seems to imply that the robot is spending the immediate action, not the pilot, and can more or less grant those once per round even if the pilot is inside it.
As per sentient, the Super robot can still only take actions on its own when you're outside of it. That was more meant for those pilots that prefer to stand at the side of their super robots rather than inside them.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on April 29, 2013, 06:51:52 PM
Excellent. Thanks.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on April 30, 2013, 12:05:31 AM
A detail I was wondering; wouldn't it be better to have the damage of a critical hit deal as much damage to the pilot as it would deal to the mecha instead of just normal damage to the pilot and the multiplied damage to the mecha? I mean, you hit the bloody cockpit. I think that's usually an instant kill in mecha stuff.
Mostly because I think a pilot would normally have a much easier time healing himself than healing his mecha. I'd rather have my pilot eat the normal damage than have my mecha eat it instead.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 30, 2013, 02:36:28 AM
With mecha as comparatively durable as they are, that would make critical hits really bad news. Go check how high the damage output on weapons can get. Or ships' beam cannons. >_>;
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on April 30, 2013, 03:05:07 AM
I have and I don't really see a problem with it. Mecha pilots have no shortage of means to avoid/reduce damage either.
You may be right, still.

Currently looking for means to save a mecha from blowing up at 0 hp. One with the Machine doesn't let you die for the mecha so maybe there is some die-for-you effect somewhere I can use. Mmh.  :plot

...Also, once your mecha gains sentience, would it be considered weird, or maybe even a little creepy, to have relationship feats with your mecha as the target?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 30, 2013, 03:58:27 AM
It doesn't really make sense--cockpits being damaged at all are represented by the critical hit harming you.

Somehow, I don't think having a relationship feat with your mecha is going to be acceptable (rival and love are mind-boggling).

What's the carrying capacity for ships?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on April 30, 2013, 04:16:17 AM
Aye, but as is you only get the normal damage. The critical damage goes to the mecha. A x3 crit weapon would harm the mecha more than it hurts the pilot.
Though I've watched a few mecha pilot deaths just now and usually when they get the cockpit both the mecha explodes with the pilot, or the pilot gets killed by a bigass weapon and the mecha explodes afterwards, so the mecha suffering much from the attack makes sense.

I don't think it will be either. I think rival/love could work when the pilot is a robot too, though.
Dying for the mecha in my case might be easier since I more or less become the mecha by having it use my hp.
Not sure some construct resurrection ability could resurrect it.
It would be akin to the enemy thinking he has defeated the mecha and destroyed it, but somehow there is STILL a tiny little bit energy left within, enough for the spark of power remaining to become a hot blooded inferno thanks to the strong emotions of the pilot (And maybe a flashback or two. Or three.) that somehow survived the mecha's destruction without using the escape pod. And for some reason now it is strong enough to defeat that great enemy.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 30, 2013, 06:35:11 AM
Aye, but as is you only get the normal damage. The critical damage goes to the mecha. A x3 crit weapon would harm the mecha more than it hurts the pilot.

Given that 'critical' does not mean 'direct hit on the cockpit' but rather 'damaged vital/delicate systems', it makes sense for the mecha to take waaaaaaaaay more damage.

In which case, you have unleashed a monstrosity whose only priority is to follow orders from you onto the battlefield, without your being there to instruct it. :p

Oh, hey, found a scene I was looking for a while ago. (http://vimeo.com/58406924)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on April 30, 2013, 01:02:35 PM
Wondering, is there something on mechas that stop people from just teleporting into another's mecha?
Like using a dimension door, or phasing in from the etereal plane. Or otherwise appear in your cockpit to duke it out with you from inside.
And if you get attacking inside the cockpit, are you at a disadvantage if you don't stop piloting your mecha while getting attacked?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 30, 2013, 06:35:36 PM
Okay, observation: there's a line in the Main Weapon upgrade that specifies what happens if an in-built weapon is Heavy. You can't get a heavy in-built weapon (save for Real Robot multiclassing, which just seems weirder: Real Robots get a bonus effect out of a Super upgrade?)

Regeneration seems hellishly overkill. Get it fully upgraded with a Super Robot that's poured all its points into health and regeneration? 160 (+1.75)  HP back. Per turn. Get two things like that, without any save or die effects, and they'll be firing away forever...

And now... a short version (because it's too late at night for the long version) of something that's been bugging me all day: Real Robots just seem plain better to go for than the Supers. They get power jumps, yeah, but the tiers are fully competitive right before upgrading, and they get better Arsenal stuff at the same time as better robots. The gap just never seems to close.

Hell, take their class abilities: average difference of 1 hp isn't going to make a big difference, both have full BAB and one good save, Real Pilot has more skillpoints, same proficiencies. Okay. Next? Well, the Real Pilot gets more bonus feats, but less spirit and doesn't have the favoured maneuver ability. Fair? Doesn't really seem like it: one bonus feat all but erodes the difference in spirit, leaving another two to do whatever with over the super pilot. Maybe the +4 to Pilot Level of one maneuver (and +3 to another, etc.) might make up the gap? Not really expecting so with the large save bonuses everywhere, honestly. And finally, capstone: the super pilot gets 4 upgrade points that cannot exceed HD caps, the real pilot gets another Arsenal weapon.

See, there's a bit of a problem: if a Super Pilot puts 63 points into the straight numerical bonuses, that leaves them another 17 points to play with. Now, what upgrades can be achieved with 4 points? Growth? Well, if you haven't spent it before, that's straight from Medium to Colossal. Higher damage (do the Arsenal weapons even scale?) but suddenly all those targeter upgrades and AC boosts are pretty necessary. Transform? Well, the one option might be handy. Basically, you get a small bonus (because they can be picked at any level) to any one thing. Now, if I'm a Real Pilot? I can grab any of the special weapons if they'd be handy. Any basic weapon that would be useful but isn't already squeezed into the mecha. +6 to dodge and reflex saves (firmly beating whatever the Super Pilot can achieve with the same thing), +8 to all my attack rolls, or--and here's one of the most ridiculous--+8 to dodge and reflex, +10 mu to speed, +10mu to range, and +4 to attack rolls.

Real Robots also have better weapons to start with (aside from anything else, the fact that they get multiple types and everything automatically has a weapon doing more than 1d6 damage or special abilities) and, in general, more access to abilities (especially weapon). The one thing they cannot pull off is regeneration. Everything else? They're going to do just as well or better.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on April 30, 2013, 07:07:59 PM
I tried both both options and made myself diagrams to evaluate which was the better option and I went with super robot in the end.
Perhaps by the latest levels real robots would get the upper hand again but it would be tight. The Supers' upgrades are quite excellent. They get more HP and energy than reals, which allows them to spend them for maneuvers and energy-hungry weapons more freely. What they lack in weapons they gain in style and durability. Being one step under in arsenal isn't so terrible considering the reals are inferior in everything else but weaponry and that's arguable because in most instances all you need is one good weapon or two. Also, Sentience.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on April 30, 2013, 07:20:43 PM
I started writing a response to this on the Phantasy Star campaign board but it would be more appropriate here I think.

Super Robots have superior HP and Energy at every level of Real Robot from II to V and it's only at Real Robot VII that they're actually outclassed in that department.

Quick rundown,

II: Gaurlion has 20/20, Huckbein has 30/20, Super Robot has 40/40

III: Altiesen 60/20, Weiss Writter 30/40, Super Robot 70/70

IV: Astelion 40/60, Boxer 80/80, Super Robot 100/100

V: Wild Wurger 100/100, Wild Falken 80/120, Super Robot 130/130

VI: Ash Saber 150/100, Rappie Cage 200/200, Super Robot 160/160

VII: Altiesen Riese 400/200, Alegrias 200/300, Super Robot 190/190

And that's both base stats before upgrades and stats at the level the new real robot is unlocked.

Given that many of the weapons real robots get built in or from arsenal require energy, as do maneuvers, as does moving, the energy advantage that super robots have is a big deal. It is compounded by Reactor being easier to access for Super Robots. They get Reactor II at level 3, III at lv6 and 4 at lv10. Real robots get reactor II at lv7, III at lv13 and IV at lv19.

Also, Super Robots can have pretty much equal Arsenal space with Real Robots from lv8 on and by lv20 they can have 175 by spending 5 upgrade points. That's more than any real robot. They're only 1 grade of arsenal behind so they can use that space to pretty effectively blunt the advantage arsenal gives the real robot.

Some of the other comparrisons are more complicated but Super Robots definitely have the advantage in a few important areas and their advantage is largest in the mid levels, which is where most campaigns are played.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 30, 2013, 07:39:53 PM
'Gain in style'.

They're all built to be generalists. Despite being supposedly more customisable. As for more HP? One of the two VII Real Robots has exactly 5 less HP. They can get 100 more Energy, but there's no reason to ever do that, because the most you're going to spend is 45 (real robots can get the 70-energy cannon, but Super Robots pretty much just have maneuvers--they have no energy-hungry weapons) and if you use high-level maneuvers constantly, you're better off investing in regenerating it than having a bigger stockpile.

One good weapon or two? They have that by default. Before upgrading.

Don't really agree that the upgrades are 'quite excellent'. Aside from the straight numerical bonuses, you either spent points on weapon properties, flight (whilst normally brilliant, the inbuilt tendency for anything that doesn't have flight to have hugely powerful ranged weapons in this makes it less excellent), or size changes. Being bigger is the only way to have weapon damage keep up, too, which counteracts the numerical bonuses.

Sentient is less useful outside of a gestalt, simply because of the inadvisability, in general, of standing outside your mecha in a class which works best if you stay in the damn thing.

(click to show/hide)

Hilariously, I was focusing on the tier-I Real Robots and tier VII.

Though this raises a question--do Super Robots use energy to fly?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on April 30, 2013, 07:52:56 PM
Super Robots are also much better at regenerating energy than real robots and the reason a bigger base energy is better, even if you're not using all of it, is that reactor regenerates a portion of your total. A larger total means more regenerated, means you can go longer without running down.

The real robot list is the only place mecha flying is discussed but it does say "all mecha" so I'm thinking that's a yes. That section should probably be copied into the mecha basics post. Also, it says that flying drains energy but it says that in the context of explaining the speed stat. Seems like flying is the default movement mode. Is it possible to move without flying and thus without losing energy? If so, does such movement work off the same speed stat or a different one? This should probably also be addressed in the mecha basics post.

If you look only at I and VII, Super Robots will appear to suck. They're much better in between those two.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 30, 2013, 08:00:42 PM
I still take issue with the fact Super Robots draw from a modular system that's based off of Real Robots. :/

Because it's depressing to invest upgrade points into Hyperspace Containment (or is it Storage?) because that translates one upgrade point into the equivalent of half a dozen or more. And it isn't even thematically appropriate.  :-\

High-levelled Regeneration/Nanomachines/whatever it's called seems likely to lead to attrition problems.

The most Super Robot-y stuff is in Burning Justice... which is kind of weird; you would think lasers are built in. Much of that just seems like a way of getting ranged attacks, though (and it looks very strange for the school to effectively give you better hardware, when the other three schools are all sticking to 'use what you have better' type stuff)

Maybe I'm overthinking this. It just seems... weird that the Super Robot choices will end up so sameish.

Random Balance Thing: I've been looking at it, and increased energy storage (for a Super Robot) is pointless. Reactor II is enough. Aside from levels 1 and 3, you always regenerate as much or more energy than your highest-level maneuver costs, so energy total becomes more of a buffer. Specifically, it's because then your energy regenerated goes up by 6 every two levels, starting at 3, whilst maneuver cost only goes up by 5.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on May 01, 2013, 04:03:09 AM
Not necessarily pointless. Especially when you want to use your highest strike maneuver, maybe also your highest boost/counter maneuver, and maybe use your great speed, and perhaps a main weapon.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on May 01, 2013, 04:48:14 AM
Random Balance Thing: I've been looking at it, and increased energy storage (for a Super Robot) is pointless. Reactor II is enough. Aside from levels 1 and 3, you always regenerate as much or more energy than your highest-level maneuver costs, so energy total becomes more of a buffer. Specifically, it's because then your energy regenerated goes up by 6 every two levels, starting at 3, whilst maneuver cost only goes up by 5.

Besides what Anomander mentioned there's also arsenal weapons that cost energy and the special weapons that drain energy when they hit you. I think you're seriously underestimating how much energy you are likely to need on a given turn. 
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on May 01, 2013, 05:17:31 AM
Random Balance Thing: I've been looking at it, and increased energy storage (for a Super Robot) is pointless. Reactor II is enough. Aside from levels 1 and 3, you always regenerate as much or more energy than your highest-level maneuver costs, so energy total becomes more of a buffer. Specifically, it's because then your energy regenerated goes up by 6 every two levels, starting at 3, whilst maneuver cost only goes up by 5.

Wait what? How? Mecha maneuvers cost 5 times the level of the maneuver in energy. Your highest level maneuvers thus costs 45 energy. You need like almost 250 energy for Reactor 2 (20% energy regen) to cover that and come out roughly even.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 01, 2013, 05:23:38 AM
You can't actually use all of these things in one turn (Main Weapon and Arsenal weapons are cheap to use, too) and this is on top of having Level x10 energy.

I think I'd still rather upgrade reactors than expand capacity. At level 5, the maximum is 25 a turn, for 10 points. At level 10, it's 50 (highest single expenditure is 25) and at level 20 it's 100 and that number is now 45. This is the amount that comes back a turn, so even if it's hugely drained there's still a lot of options next turn. Energy boosts? It can double your capacity, but you burn through it much quicker, and you end up investing more to get the maximum out.

Energy Drain seems worse for large energy reserves as opposed to regeneration. You're getting less back.

Hmm... spreadsheet time. Going to check stuff.

Random Balance Thing: I've been looking at it, and increased energy storage (for a Super Robot) is pointless. Reactor II is enough. Aside from levels 1 and 3, you always regenerate as much or more energy than your highest-level maneuver costs, so energy total becomes more of a buffer. Specifically, it's because then your energy regenerated goes up by 6 every two levels, starting at 3, whilst maneuver cost only goes up by 5.

Wait what? How? Mecha maneuvers cost 5 times the level of the maneuver in energy. Your highest level maneuvers thus costs 45 energy. You need like almost 250 energy for Reactor 2 (20% energy regen) to cover that and come out roughly even.

Mecha regenerate 1/10th of their energy per turn by default. If Reactor isn't additive, Reactor I is effectively useless.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on May 01, 2013, 05:50:22 AM
Why are you assuming a maximum of 1 maneuver/ round? The schools all have boosts and counters. You're not accounting for movement, either. 

It's not a choice between reactor and capacity in any case. You clearly do both to some degree.

The fact that mecha regenerate energy without the reactor property really needs to go in the mecha basics post. This was the first I'd heard of it.

In fact, it makes no sense to make "Reactor" a special property that starts at I when mecha already regenerate that much automatically. Reactor should be an inherent property with all mecha having reactor I, and the upgrades/arsenal should improve it.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 01, 2013, 06:06:47 AM
A detail I was wondering; wouldn't it be better to have the damage of a critical hit deal as much damage to the pilot as it would deal to the mecha instead of just normal damage to the pilot and the multiplied damage to the mecha? I mean, you hit the bloody cockpit. I think that's usually an instant kill in mecha stuff.
Mostly because I think a pilot would normally have a much easier time healing himself than healing his mecha. I'd rather have my pilot eat the normal damage than have my mecha eat it instead.

Too bad, mechas are designed to protect the pilot, not the other way around.


...Also, once your mecha gains sentience, would it be considered weird, or maybe even a little creepy, to have relationship feats with your mecha as the target?
Mechas, even if sentient, just as intelligent equipment are not individuals.

What's the carrying capacity for ships?

How much you can fit inside.

I tried both both options and made myself diagrams to evaluate which was the better option and I went with super robot in the end.
You actually multiclassed into real robot to get a bunch  of extra HP, energy and arsenal space.

The real robot list is the only place mecha flying is discussed but it does say "all mecha" so I'm thinkig that's a yes. That section should probably be copied into the mecha basics post. Also, it says that flying drains energy but it says that in the context of explaining the speed stat. Seems like flying is the default movement mode. Is it possible to move without flying and thus without losing energy? If so, does such movement work off the same speed stat or a different one? This should probably also be addressed in the mecha basics post.

All mechas have base speeds, flying speeds are always extra. It cannot be adressed more than that.


You can't actually use all of these things in one turn (Main Weapon and Arsenal weapons are cheap to use, too) and this is on top of having Level x10 energy.
As already pointed out, you also burn energy for flying and then there's stuff like the Mighty upgrade and using multiple maneuvers in a single round.

Mecha regenerate 1/10th of their energy per turn by default. If Reactor isn't additive, Reactor I is effectively useless.
It is additive.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on May 01, 2013, 06:11:04 AM
All mechas have base speeds, flying speeds are always extra. It cannot be adressed more than that.

You could put it in the mecha basics post.

It would also be good to phrase this portion:

Quote
All mechas are equiped with thrusters of some kind that allow them to fly at their base speed on their own turns, but they must end their turn on a surface or fall when their turn ends, unless they're in space. Mechas with a flight speed can fly all the time when on a planet's surface. Either way, flight consumes 1 energy for each 5 mu moved. A mecha reduced to 0 energy falls or is rendered immobile if in space.

"that grant them a flight speed equal to their base speed"

That way it is clear that the flight speed and the base speed are seperate things. The way it is currently written it can be read to say that the flight speed is the base speed and thus all movement costs energy.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 01, 2013, 06:15:35 AM
Yeah, I realised there's extra costs. So far I have four pages on this thing. >_>;

Not helped by the fact it likes glitching on me.

Anyway... back to working on it.

Though I would like to know how you could manage to use all of this stuff in one round (which, by the way, looks like you'll be getting two rounds out of it, best case scenario)

Edit: Yeah, one round if you just blast everything you have (three top-level maneuvers, maximum flight, fully upgraded main weapon, etc.) and haven't upgraded energy, two if you have. Time until you can redo it: 2 rounds and 5 rounds, respectively. That's... what, average of 1/3 of the time and... 3/12 of the time? Okay, it's a smaller difference than I was expecting, I'll admit (but I haven't taken energy drain into account, which honestly would be worse with less regeneration as it takes longer to recover. Also because there's a fort save, so it's kind of... unpredictable).

That's 20th level. 15th, 10th, and 1st level, you can't use everything (three maneuvers of the highest level you have access to, maximum movement, energy-using arsenal stuff, and fully upgraded main weapon) at once. But your regeneration is too slow without Reactor to make it feasible to use anything over the long term...

Since mecha get such high HP, and there's a comparative lack of save-or-die stuff here, I'm inclined to view things as lasting longer than just the few rounds.

But... it bothers me, still: they get increasingly generic the more I look at it. Having good weapons requires either large energy expenditure or being larger, and both of those require other things to not be a death sentence. Gaaaaah.

... really annoyed at the Real Robot with vastly higher DR and Natural Armour than a mecha eight times its size can even get at, though with all the power and rending stuff dodge is probably more useful... hmm... probably time to respec the Yatagarasu, though.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 01, 2013, 12:24:34 PM
Improved the base HP/energy of all real robots between II and VI.

Since mecha get such high HP, and there's a comparative lack of save-or-die stuff here, I'm inclined to view things as lasting longer than just the few rounds.
That's the plan at least.

But... it bothers me, still: they get increasingly generic the more I look at it. Having good weapons requires either large energy expenditure or being larger, and both of those require other things to not be a death sentence. Gaaaaah.

By all means sugest new upgrade options for the Super Robots. The original plan was to add new crazy options as inspiration kicked in, but alas, it never came. :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on May 01, 2013, 01:09:48 PM
Quote
You actually multiclassed into real robot to get a bunch  of extra HP, energy and arsenal space.
Yep. But I chose to go with way more Super R levels than Reals. I went with super robot in the end.  Will look again now that the second and third real tiers have been upgraded.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 01, 2013, 01:18:29 PM
Missed this one the other time.

Wondering, is there something on mechas that stop people from just teleporting into another's mecha?
Like using a dimension door, or phasing in from the etereal plane. Or otherwise appear in your cockpit to duke it out with you from inside.
And if you get attacking inside the cockpit, are you at a disadvantage if you don't stop piloting your mecha while getting attacked?
You can try to teleport inside somebody else's mecha. However due to its internal structure, and the fact there's plenty of parts moving around in the interior means chances are that you'll end up attempting to materialize inside something solid and be shunted outside.

Similar problem for ethereal. You can pass trough it, but actually geting into the cockpit and back into the material in time is a trick against all odds.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 01, 2013, 01:40:22 PM
An upgrade to make a weapon an area attack? Pretty much every Real but one from level four onwards has something like that. And whilst there are some Arsenal weapons with the property, a short range, low power shotgun is the only option before level 13. Then there's the Remote Slasher... and I honestly have no idea what that is meant to be. :???

I wonder if it would be possible to have some sort of mutually exclusive upgrades for weapons? Like something that changes the die type from d6 but is mutually exclusive with Mighty (so, in the weapon size/damage charts, move from shortspear downwards to longswords, bastard swords, greatswords). Need to work out how they compare (for mecha of different sizes). Hmm... (also work out what the hell to do about the fact bastard sword damage improves faster than greatsword damage beyond colossal)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on May 01, 2013, 02:23:27 PM
You can try to teleport inside somebody else's mecha. However due to its internal structure, and the fact there's plenty of parts moving around in the interior means chances are that you'll end up attempting to materialize inside something solid and be shunted outside.

Similar problem for ethereal. You can pass trough it, but actually geting into the cockpit and back into the material in time is a trick against all odds.

Doesn't sound so complicated once you know exactly where the pilot is within the mecha.
As to ethereality/incorporeality, you don't have to re-materialize to be a threat. Once the pilot is in sight and within line of effect, you can do stuff to him.

What changed in the races?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 01, 2013, 02:30:57 PM
An upgrade to make a weapon an area attack? Pretty much every Real but one from level four onwards has something like that. And whilst there are some Arsenal weapons with the property, a short range, low power shotgun is the only option before level 13. Then there's the Remote Slasher... and I honestly have no idea what that is meant to be. :???
Well, the Burning Justice school has plenty of area attacks, but I could see that.

Remote slashers are basically mecha-sized shurikens with auto-spinners or something like that. :p

You can try to teleport inside somebody else's mecha. However due to its internal structure, and the fact there's plenty of parts moving around in the interior means chances are that you'll end up attempting to materialize inside something solid and be shunted outside.

Similar problem for ethereal. You can pass trough it, but actually geting into the cockpit and back into the material in time is a trick against all odds.

Doesn't sound so complicated once you know exactly where the pilot is within the mecha.
As to ethereality/incorporeality, you don't have to re-materialize to be a threat. Once the pilot is in sight and within line of effect, you can do stuff to him.
That's where the "moving components" part comes in. No mecha is static. In battle it is constant movement inside and out.

As for ethereal, even if you don't want to return to the material, good luck geting said line of sight.

Just like you cannot teleport yourself inside somebody else's stomach/heart just because they're considerably bigger than you, or enter ethereal inside their body and attempt to target their vital organs.

What changed in the races?
Clarifying that the android's personal weapon doesn't carry over to the mecha she pilots.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 01, 2013, 02:39:00 PM
Well, it has the Drill Rocket Punch, but what if I was drawing from the other school? :p

It's kind of unfortunate that you put most of the mechanical upgrades into the school, since it leaves less to suggest.

It seems that, fully upgraded (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsurXelXBiG3dENyWFVIMGJMakI0WTdFZk1DYmlLT0E#gid=0),  Mighty is always superior. +4 to +24 for four upgrades isn't bad, though; it just tends to lose its impact. Would probably be more energy and upgrade-efficient, if less outright powerful.

Also, Bastard Swords become a real bitch beyond Colossal. >_>;
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on May 01, 2013, 02:49:06 PM
Not sure whether or not you actually cannot port into the body of a large but I get what you mean.

The effects I had in mind can teleport you next to your target, so no matter how much it moves in there you don't have to decide where in there you teleport. You just do and right next to it, so even if entering solid material the closest space would be next to the pilot.
Another effect in mind is a reversal teleportation that switches your place with the target, so the pilot would be outside and the user inside the mecha.

Edit: Nevermind. It technically works, but for practical reasons it just doesn't.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Clanjos on May 01, 2013, 04:06:17 PM
Hm... Combining mecha are a staple, but this is proving difficult. Perhaps they start out at Mecha (Small) or (Tiny) and combine into something at a more reasonable size. The more components going in, the larger it becomes. Not sure how to handle the individual pilots though- maybe they need to upgrade their mechas to add more docking points for additional mechs in the combination.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 01, 2013, 04:13:12 PM
The biggest problem with Combining Mecha looks like it would be getting multiple people... and then making it worth it, because they would hardly get number of people x actions. Hmm.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 01, 2013, 06:56:37 PM
My skeleton plan for the Combining Robot Team would be something along this lines:
-You get 3-5 pilots, each with a minor vehicle.
-They can combine into an extra-super robot, but that is stressing for the machines, so they can only hold it up for some rounds every day/hour/something. You can end it earlier than usual to save up uses, being even viable combine/divide/combine again during combat. Perhaps it just drains energy like crazy while disabling all energy recovery.
-The combining robot works like a super robot, except its upgrades are spread out evenly among the diferent team member vehicles when separated.
-Like in a ship, secondary pilots can only help with spirits. However you can swap who is leading the robot with swift/move action.
-Custom school where when one pilot uses a maneuver, others can help if they also know it. All of the team pilot members know the same maneuvers. This helps them be useful when separated, but gets even better when they're combined.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 01, 2013, 07:01:36 PM
So, bigger team = stronger robot (due to more upgrade points)?

Hardest part seems to be not making it possible to specialise in being the 'leader' and therefore turning the combined time into a one-man show. Hmm.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 01, 2013, 07:10:24 PM
All of the team pilots are under control of the same player. There'll probably be a leader, but even then they each will be quite weak individually compared to other pilots.

If you pick less "parts", they simply get more upgrades. Think of Getter HRobo, where even separated their fighter jets are quite good.

Hmm, have to remember to add a feat to allow a single pilot to keep the whole thing going if things come to worst. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 01, 2013, 07:13:34 PM
Huh, I thought that this was going to be multiple players rather than one. Because... uh... four or five sets of actions and the ability to combine into a mecha better than anything the other two classes can get, and five characters? You're basically a one-man party. :/
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on May 01, 2013, 07:25:29 PM
Well. Let's see.
Here's a draft, probably flawed as it was thought up rather quickly and I don't have much time for it right now.

(click to show/hide)

Argh. 4 posts already got in before I could finish!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 01, 2013, 07:39:24 PM
Quote
The merged mecha would be the size of the biggest mecha +1 per additional mecha.

Doesn't add up. Large is twice the size of Medium, but four times the size of Small, and Huge is four and eight times, respectively.

The thing with those rules... is that you end up with a ludicrously overpowered robot in base stats and action economy (can take a move action and several fullround actions? Awesome) and you single out both one person to have control of the mecha and one of your class features.

Three or four pilots should be enough to have every possible upgrade maxed, and you'll have 40% HP and 50% Energy regeneration per round online at level 3.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 01, 2013, 07:45:30 PM
Yeah, plus it goes completely bonkers with leadership in that you only need one "main" guy and then an army of 1st level pilots to sky-rocket your stuff. Combining robot just doesn't work if only one of the pilot really matters and the rest are just fodder to stack up on top.

Huh, I thought that this was going to be multiple players rather than one. Because... uh... four or five sets of actions and the ability to combine into a mecha better than anything the other two classes can get, and five characters? You're basically a one-man party. :/

One player for the team. Multiple players for a single robot is a can of worms I will not open.

However, I'll reiterate the team members are individiually much weaker than any other pilot. Check the mecha mooks, which is basically the equivalent for real robots. No bonus feats, minor saves, HD and skills, and they'll only get limited spirits. And they can only combine for a limited amount of time every day, and even then the head pilot will still be inferior to other pilots.

Probably a custom vulnerability as well, in that the head pilot is more exposed than normal, meaning you'll probably have to cycle trough the secondary pilots.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 01, 2013, 07:54:09 PM
Ah, I think I understand.

However, question: would it be possible to start with a Super Pilot for, say, five levels, then multiclass into the combining class as the 'leader'? The other mecha would be several levels behind, but the leader's would be a bit tougher.

I may or may not have gotten this episode stuck in my head (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8cCyNp9fNo).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on May 01, 2013, 08:01:19 PM
Doesn't add up. Large is twice the size of Medium, but four times the size of Small, and Huge is four and eight times, respectively.
It could grow more as per the individual size of merging mechas as per that system. I just went with that way to make simple increases rather than semi-complex size maths.

The thing with those rules... is that you end up with a ludicrously overpowered robot in base stats and action economy (can take a move action and several fullround actions? Awesome) and you single out both one person to have control of the mecha and one of your class features.
Not sure how that is different than a bunch of people riding a titanic creature. Action economy isn't so uber considering everyone still gets to do actions but lose the ability to go where they all want to be and that every attacks made against them would count as area attacks affecting them all. One person doesn't control your actions but spirit management doesn't have to be managed by one person. I thought that would prevent having everyone supply a bunch of defensive spirit uses on the main robot or something like that. Its just a draft. Very open to improvement.

Yeah, plus it goes completely bonkers with leadership in that you only need one "main" guy and then an army of 1st level pilots to sky-rocket your stuff. Combining robot just doesn't work if only one of the pilot really matters and the rest are just fodder to stack up on top.
Not at all since you cannot invest more upgrade points in an ability that your level+1. If it takes one point per mecha able to combine, then the 1st level pilots cannot invest enough to join in.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 01, 2013, 08:07:42 PM
Who cares about the upgrades?
Quote
The merged mecha would be the size of the biggest mecha +1 per additional mecha.
...
The base stats of the merge robot are that of the highest level robot +2 super pilot level per participating mecha.

There. Get 10 1st level minions. You grow 10 size categories and count as +20 super pilot level. And probably more spirit points than you can spend. 3-5 members team will always be defeated by general Zorgon and his mook horde.

Ah, I think I understand.

However, question: would it be possible to start with a Super Pilot for, say, five levels, then multiclass into the combining class as the 'leader'? The other mecha would be several levels behind, but the leader's would be a bit tougher.
No multiclassing rules at start, this will already be complicated enough by itself.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 01, 2013, 08:09:14 PM
Points to get 50% Energy Regen: 10 (also, the Super Robot Upgrade List needs to be fixed, the maths is still working out as if there was a fifth)
40% HP Regen: 10
Agility/Targeter/Plating/Mighty/Battery Maxed: Level+1

Points by level 3: 12. Two robots to supply regeneration, and one with, say, flight. The other takes one of the weapon upgrades. Two more spend four points each on agility/targeter/plating/battery, etc. At level 3, you have maxed HP, AC, energy, energy regen, HP regen, DR, speed, and flight. Now, the big expenditures for half your robots are out of the way, so you can have them choose weapon upgrades, or transformations, etc.

Hell, the bigger problem is that you run out of upgrade choices by about level 8 and have a perpetually maxed robot. With, as pointed out, high base stats as well.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on May 01, 2013, 08:15:14 PM
What?
The +2 base stats would only grant it:

HP: +20
DR: +2
Save bonus: +2/3 super
Energy:+20

The first level minions won't have enough upgrade points to have their mecha merge to begin with.

If everyone gets their upgrades only to avoid overlapping then they will be at a disadvantage when they aren't merged. They would keep their own stats while merged too, so they might still want to get plating and more energy and so on.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 01, 2013, 09:09:12 PM
Had almost forgoten this.
Also
Note: Mecha Mooks as PCs

This class is intended for NPC enemies, but it should be fine for a player to use it, as long as they're fine playing with 5 characters that can just perform basic attacks, whitout spirits/maneuvers or anything else but basic attacks, plus a lot of dead levels.
Well depending on how you handle multiclassing... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kh7uBEJbnE)

Added custom feat to the Mecha Pilot. Combined Robot is now a multiclass Mecha Mook/Super Robot. Still need to work a custom school but the basics are now there.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 03, 2013, 05:04:47 AM
Reduced Stats = 9/5 = 1.8 = 2? Are they getting the full upgrade (10 per level) to HP spread over five robots?

Mildly concerned that the individual mecha will be useless, and the final combined robot inferior to an actual super (since it eats through all of its energy in two or three rounds, is multiclassed by default, cannot take any upgrade which costs more than 1 upgrade point, and you've stated that they only use the best AC, which means that if one has all the plating (does the HP bonus from that get cut to +1?) and one has agility, they won't stack. Hm.

On the other hand, because DR isn't cut into a fifth and stacks, a Mecha Mook 5/Super Robot 15 team can cheerfully have DR 140/-.

I also observe a minor downside with the current 1/5 of storage space per robot in the Mecha Mook class: there are only four robots with enough storage space to actually equip accessories (and they only have access to four weapons and some of the special weapons--if their storage space is 100 to start with). For instance, only two of the starting robots Arsenals will actually fit anything when cut into a fifth (and at that point, you have a choice between a knife and a machine gun for one of them). The Tier III's will fit those weapons and an accessory, but no Tier IV Real Robot's arsenal, divided by five, will fit much of anything (Energy Taker, Steel Knife, Machine Gun, G-Revolver--that's all).

Given that Real Robots already have plenty of inbuilt weaponry, maybe it would be better to make it a flat '1 accessory'/Storage Space 25 thing? Because with the storage sizes available, you get the majority of your options available by level 4.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 03, 2013, 08:27:53 PM
Changed the combining rules a bit. They now gain full multiclass HP but it is spread over the 5 members (+2 to 4 and +1 to the last for the total of 9).

The combined robot also gains an extra 5 upgrade points that apply only while transformed, and clarified that you get both the best Natural Armor and Dodge from the combining members, but removed the DR stacking.

Mass Produced Models being unable to pick most acessories is intended. I actually created the Refined Armament so they had something to pick up. Added some new acessories and weapons with low arsenal cost tough.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 03, 2013, 08:39:30 PM
Looks good (though cartridges + something like the G-Impact Stake or the Alteisen Reise's Claymore Avalanache seems liable to cause problems)

Do the Mecha Mooks get the full d12 Super Pilot HP?

And finally... you should probably add a clause to the combining rules that negates Promotion, 'cause that really wouldn't work. :lmao

I am now imagining a Mecha Mook 20/Super Pilot 4 team. @_@

EDIT: Can't help but think that ships are currently more bland than even straight Mecha Mook. There's absolutely no choices invested in them aside from size, which is kind of... odd. You'd think there would be amenities of some sort or something (not entirely sure about the fact that everything is apparently the Yamato :p)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 04, 2013, 03:56:38 PM
Looks good (though cartridges + something like the G-Impact Stake or the Alteisen Reise's Claymore Avalanache seems liable to cause problems)

Do the Mecha Mooks get the full d12 Super Pilot HP?

And finally... you should probably add a clause to the combining rules that negates Promotion, 'cause that really wouldn't work. :lmao
Reduced to mecha mook HD and skill points, also put clause against Promotion.

I am now imagining a Mecha Mook 20/Super Pilot 4 team. @_@

EDIT: Can't help but think that ships are currently more bland than even straight Mecha Mook. There's absolutely no choices invested in them aside from size, which is kind of... odd. You'd think there would be amenities of some sort or something (not entirely sure about the fact that everything is apparently the Yamato :p)
That's for what multiclassing is for, go Super Robot if you want fancy battleships.

Pure Ship Captain is more about leading and supporting your troops than piloting a combat machine yourself.

Also, in SRW the battleships are indeed very standardized, always with some variant of "anti air batteries, big ass cannons, then smaller cannons/missiles".
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 04, 2013, 04:08:20 PM
I... cannot actually find any rules regarding multiclassing between Ship Captain and Super Pilot. Wait... they're in the Ship Captain section? Rather than the Super Robot list with the Real Robot/Super Robot multiclass rules? :huh

... because SRW has all its ships be the same, all ships in this must be pretty much the same or start digging into a list of Super Pilot upgrades? I... what? :???

EDIT: A multiclass ship/super robot gets less HP than a straight super robot. Despite ships getting more. Also less energy, despite their having the same beforehand. And automatically gains a humanoid form. I must state that this is making less and less sense. Transforming, maybe, but worse health? :|

... also, for taking the full 20 levels in ship captain, you get... a 10th level cohort and one more maneuver. Um... is there any conceivable way that this level  is worth it?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 04, 2013, 05:36:02 PM
I... cannot actually find any rules regarding multiclassing between Ship Captain and Super Pilot. Wait... they're in the Ship Captain section? Rather than the Super Robot list with the Real Robot/Super Robot multiclass rules? :huh
I get it, I get it, I have to figure out a better overall organization for this.

... because SRW has all its ships be the same, all ships in this must be pretty much the same or start digging into a list of Super Pilot upgrades? I... what? :???
This is Super ROBOT Wars d20. Mechas are suposed to be the main weapons of war, ships play a support role.  Or you play a ship-robot hybrid.

Also, what else would you sugest? I already have the upgrade list for super robot and fixed lists for real robots.

EDIT: A multiclass ship/super robot gets less HP than a straight super robot. Despite ships getting more. Also less energy, despite their having the same beforehand. And automatically gains a humanoid form. I must state that this is making less and less sense. Transforming, maybe, but worse health? :|
Fluff-all of those moving parts in such a big structure aren't exactly stable.

Crunch-Don't want for a single ship captain dip to produce a straight out better super robot than what the super pilot gets.

... also, for taking the full 20 levels in ship captain, you get... a 10th level cohort and one more maneuver. Um... is there any conceivable way that this level  is worth it?
Said 10th level cohort gives you 3 more spirits and 70 spare spirit points. Even more if you have her invest in spirit-boosting feats.

Which reminds me, gonna have to put a clause in relationship feats to prevent you from loving/friending/rivaling your own officers. :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 04, 2013, 06:10:57 PM
Internal stuff? You start with all the basics (and I find the Custom Ship fluff amusing given that you've already been carrying all the accessories for three levels for Real Pilots) but there's got to be some stuff that can be added. Somewhere to get non-mecha items. Library. Faster loading/offloading of mecha. Medical bay. Something to enable changing HDxSuper Robot upgrade points for a cost or something.

Super Pilot: bonus upgrade points. Real Pilot: sudden accessory. Ship Captain: "Don't I already have two of you? Go serve food in the cafeteria or something until we're all dead." Not, exactly, a distinctive upgrade. You also ruined the nice pattern you had going (since you get a bonus feat level 18 instead of 4th Officer). Something to improve your leader aura for a brief duration? If you put all your bonus feats into it, you get a 25 foot range aura. In something built to hang around at the back of the battlefield. But to actually use much of your support stuff, you need to be near them... thereby putting your giant target right where people can hit it. Hmm.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 04, 2013, 07:24:43 PM
Internal stuff? You start with all the basics (and I find the Custom Ship fluff amusing given that you've already been carrying all the accessories for three levels for Real Pilots) but there's got to be some stuff that can be added. Somewhere to get non-mecha items. Library. Faster loading/offloading of mecha. Medical bay. Something to enable changing HDxSuper Robot upgrade points for a cost or something.
Added a bunch of captain-only feats based on that, thanks for the ideas!

Super Pilot: bonus upgrade points. Real Pilot: sudden accessory. Ship Captain: "Don't I already have two of you? Go serve food in the cafeteria or something until we're all dead." Not, exactly, a distinctive upgrade. You also ruined the nice pattern you had going (since you get a bonus feat level 18 instead of 4th Officer). Something to improve your leader aura for a brief duration? If you put all your bonus feats into it, you get a 25 foot range aura. In something built to hang around at the back of the battlefield. But to actually use much of your support stuff, you need to be near them... thereby putting your giant target right where people can hit it. Hmm.

For the record, Ships Full of Hope has the Great Commander stance that can considerably increase your aura.

4th officer replaced by Legendary Leader capstone nonthless.


4th officer replaced by new Legendary Leader capstone.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on May 05, 2013, 11:22:56 PM
Quote
Stealth:The mecha can hide with out actually having anything to hide behind, even in the middle of the sky or the empty space.

Can this basically be taken to mean that it works as the Hide in Plain Sight feature?

Even I forgot I had asked this question and never got an answer  :tongue
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on May 06, 2013, 04:06:18 AM
How does multiclassing between Arcane/Divine Pilot and Super/Real Pilot work?

That is, if you're an Arcane Pilot who multiclasses to Real Pilot and takes a Real Robot, does your robot have full stats or is it modifed as per the Divine Robot feature?

Same question for the various class combinations.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 06, 2013, 05:24:29 PM
Quote
Stealth:The mecha can hide with out actually having anything to hide behind, even in the middle of the sky or the empty space.

Can this basically be taken to mean that it works as the Hide in Plain Sight feature?

Even I forgot I had asked this question and never got an answer  :tongue
No. HiPS usually demands some special condition/terrain to work. It's far from a standardized ability.

How does multiclassing between Arcane/Divine Pilot and Super/Real Pilot work?

That is, if you're an Arcane Pilot who multiclasses to Real Pilot and takes a Real Robot, does your robot have full stats or is it modifed as per the Divine Robot feature?

Same question for the various class combinations.

Multiclassing between a "caster" pilot and a "noncaster" pilot will still result in modified stats as per the caster pilot entry. Still apply usual ship/super/real multiclass rules before modified stats.

Multiclassing between arcane pilot and divine pilot means you get to channel both kinds of magic. Still reduced stats of course.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on May 06, 2013, 11:32:11 PM
Oh, so the mecha stealth ability is better? :D
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 07, 2013, 02:29:57 AM
Out of curiosity, what made you decide to use maneuvers for stuff like rocket punches, bigger rocket punches, and ultimate attacks?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 07, 2013, 04:19:06 PM
Oh, so the mecha stealth ability is better? :D
Yes. I didn't feel like complicating things on that matter.

Out of curiosity, what made you decide to use maneuvers for stuff like rocket punches, bigger rocket punches, and ultimate attacks?
If I remember correctly, it came from a discussion with Prime32 about how to do the Super Robot martial school.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on May 08, 2013, 06:55:25 PM
Could there be an option for life-energy dependant mechas?
kind of like Zearth in Bokurano, but maybe not as vicious.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on May 09, 2013, 04:09:48 AM
Oh, so the mecha stealth ability is better? :D
Yes. I didn't feel like complicating things on that matter.

Ah, I don't suppose being Stealthed counts as being Invisible for Hide bonuses, does it?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on May 09, 2013, 12:10:48 PM
Nope. It only allows you to Hide anywhere. If you successfully hide, you're not invisible, only unseen.
But I understand your confusion. In shows the camouflage sort of feel like an invisibility. Perhaps invisibility-seeing effects could negate the stealth.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on May 09, 2013, 01:45:26 PM
Nope. It only allows you to Hide anywhere. If you successfully hide, you're not invisible, only unseen.
But I understand your confusion. In shows the camouflage sort of feel like an invisibility. Perhaps invisibility-seeing effects could negate the stealth.

Size penalties on super huge mechs make this Stealth option a tough one to imagine using then.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 09, 2013, 03:15:59 PM
Could there be an option for life-energy dependant mechas?
kind of like Zearth in Bokurano, but maybe not as vicious.
Maybe. But not really a priority, since that kinda stuff is a pain to balance out.

Nope. It only allows you to Hide anywhere. If you successfully hide, you're not invisible, only unseen.
But I understand your confusion. In shows the camouflage sort of feel like an invisibility. Perhaps invisibility-seeing effects could negate the stealth.
Perhaps noncasters should get nice things that aren't automatically defeated by a bunch of staple spells.

Size penalties on super huge mechs make this Stealth option a tough one to imagine using then.
Nacht system now allows you to ignore size penalties to hide checks.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 09, 2013, 03:38:59 PM
Hm, I wonder if it would be possible to create a variant of the Super Pilot/Robot where they get more upgrade points (and/or a split between utility and weapons) but don't have maneuvers, basically folding the weaponry and energy costs into it? Not suggesting you do it, just wondering if it's possible.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on May 09, 2013, 05:52:47 PM
Nacht system now allows you to ignore size penalties to hide checks.

Yeah that really does make it easier to utilize  :)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 09, 2013, 05:53:20 PM
Clearly, large enough mecha just pretend to be hills.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on May 11, 2013, 03:00:22 AM
Do multiple instances of the Reactor property stack? From both arsenal and upgrades, for example?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 12, 2013, 12:36:33 PM
Huh, oddity: Veteran Mechanic doesn't help the ship itself at all. You'd think having someone on board that knew what they were doing would at least cut down the time taken to get it airworthy after crashing.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 12, 2013, 03:29:51 PM
Do multiple instances of the Reactor property stack? From both arsenal and upgrades, for example?
No. That's why I made it a keyword. It still stacks with the base mecha regeneration because it has no actual keyword.

Huh, oddity: Veteran Mechanic doesn't help the ship itself at all. You'd think having someone on board that knew what they were doing would at least cut down the time taken to get it airworthy after crashing.
Good point, will add something about that.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 14, 2013, 06:50:24 PM
Suggestion: feat that lets you keep fighting after your mecha is destroyed, but all damage goes directly to your HP. Also have to burn Spirit in place of Energy.

... the idea probably needs work. XD
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on May 14, 2013, 08:42:40 PM
I like the idea but then what would be the point of the One with the Machine ability of the android?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on May 14, 2013, 08:44:10 PM
I like the idea but then what would be the point of the One with the Machine ability of the android?

Every other race but androids would still benefit then?

Does sound like a pretty interesting feat.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on May 14, 2013, 08:56:05 PM
I know, I just mean that it is about the same but better.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 15, 2013, 05:05:11 AM
So something needs to be done to make the downside equivalent to two fullround actions. Simple enough.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 16, 2013, 03:33:24 PM
Simple, but still too good for a feat. Maybe a pilot prestige class mid/final ability.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 16, 2013, 03:35:13 PM
Maybe a pilot PrC based around Spirit?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 19, 2013, 03:21:46 PM
An idea for the future.

Meanwhile added Cruising Speed ability to the Battleship.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on May 19, 2013, 03:37:02 PM
Since the use of spirits is considered to be a mecha action, I was wondering; the Pilot feats do not specify that they only work when you are in a mecha.

Do they?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 19, 2013, 03:39:49 PM
I had already said in the OOC thread that pilot feats still work when you're outside the mecha.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on May 23, 2013, 02:52:38 AM
The super robot upgrade Transform: what kind of action does it take to transform?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on May 23, 2013, 02:59:10 AM
Its the same as the Real Robot Transform special property, a swift action.
Its under the Mecha Special Properties spoiler on the Real Robot List thread where all of the special property stuff is described in more detail.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on May 23, 2013, 03:43:46 AM
Ah, I see.

Does it mention somewhere if a mecha can fight with certain weapons two-handed for 1.5 str damage?
Like sword-like arsenal weapons.
Or when they have only one melee weapon, natural weapon-like or not, such as the Meggilot's Bug Horn.

If they can fight two-handed, how'd it interact with the Main Weapon upgrade? It'd only add .5 to the multiplier?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 23, 2013, 04:41:02 PM
Ah, I see.

Does it mention somewhere if a mecha can fight with certain weapons two-handed for 1.5 str damage?
Like sword-like arsenal weapons.
Or when they have only one melee weapon, natural weapon-like or not, such as the Meggilot's Bug Horn.
People keep asking that, so I'll just add a note on super robot basics.

If they can fight two-handed, how'd it interact with the Main Weapon upgrade? It'd only add .5 to the multiplier?
Yes.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on May 24, 2013, 11:16:48 PM
Quote
Mecha Melee weapons add 1,5 the Str mod of the user if they don't use any other weapon for that round
There is a big difference between fighting two-handed and not using other weapons (after all, my favorite kind of two-weapon combat involved two-handed fighting), but I suppose that you'd prefer to handle it this way as far as mecha combat is involved.
I imagine that specifying melee weapons means that we cannot use brutal ranged weapons "two-handed".

While on the subject, how are the attack rolls with multiple weapons handled? Like normal weapons or natural weapons? Or a mix of the two?
Say, a fullattack action by an Alteisen with BAB 11 that doesn't have arsenal weapons would be:
A) Revolver Stake x3 (no penalty, -5, -10) || Autocannon x3 (no penalty, -5, -10) || Heat Horn x3 (no penalty, -5, -10) || Claymores x1
B) Revolver Stake, Autocannon (-5) and Heat Horn (-5) || Claymores x1
C) Revolver Stake x3 (no penalty, -5, -10), Autocannon (-5) and Heat Horn (-5) [Revolver Stake can be replaced by the other two] || Claymores x1
D) [pilot has 2-W fighting feats) Revolver Stake x3 (no penalty, -5, -10 and two-weapon fighting penalties) and Autocannon x2 or Heat Horn x2 (no penalty, -5, and two-weapon fighting penalties) || Claymores x1
E) As D, but the Heat Horn or Autocannon can attack once at -5 as a natural weapon on top of the rest.
F) As B, but none of the weapons get penalties on their attack.

Also, since mecha flight movement costs 1 energy per 5 mu moved, I was wondering. Does double flight speed when going downward count for energy movement costs? Reasoning is that since your speed is doubled when flying downward because gravity is doing half the job, should you pay half energy costs when flying downward?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 25, 2013, 08:36:22 PM
Using multiple mecha weapons are treated precisely as using multiple manufactured weapons.

Also, since mecha flight movement costs 1 energy per 5 mu moved, I was wondering. Does double flight speed when going downward count for energy movement costs? Reasoning is that since your speed is doubled when flying downward because gravity is doing half the job, should you pay half energy costs when flying downward?

Giant robots tell gravity to fuck off. They move at regular speed at regular energy costs regardless of the direction they're going.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 25, 2013, 09:04:36 PM
No-one wants their giant robot in an uncontrolled descent, after all. :D
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on May 25, 2013, 09:10:56 PM
Quote
Giant robots tell gravity to fuck off. They move at regular speed at regular energy costs regardless of the direction they're going.
So as per Perfect flight speed no matter the maneuverability, but without double speed downwards. Or as some kind of Air Walk. Gotcha.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 14, 2013, 07:22:22 PM
We really need a 'fight mecha on foot' class. :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on June 14, 2013, 07:28:00 PM
We really need a 'fight mecha on foot' class. :lmao

Moon Vanguard!  :D
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 14, 2013, 07:41:51 PM
We really need a 'fight mecha on foot' class. :lmao

Moon Vanguard!  :D

That doesn't count. It's not in the same subforum, even! :<

Also because you still have a mecha.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on June 14, 2013, 07:48:11 PM
It sorta COULD count  :whistle

Otherwise a class that doesn't get a mecha that can fight mechas......is probably gonna be like a Shounen Superhero kind of thing.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 14, 2013, 07:50:13 PM
It sorta COULD count  :whistle

Otherwise a class that doesn't get a mecha that can fight mechas......is probably gonna be like a Shounen Superhero kind of thing.

It happens. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAizwLfZbUA)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on June 14, 2013, 07:58:06 PM
Exactly my point.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 14, 2013, 07:59:33 PM
Exactly my point.

I'm not sure declaring Master Asia a superhero is the right thing to do. And that is from a Gundam show. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 14, 2013, 08:05:09 PM
It sorta COULD count  :whistle

Otherwise a class that doesn't get a mecha that can fight mechas......is probably gonna be like a Shounen Superhero kind of thing.

It happens. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAizwLfZbUA)
Master Asia just happens to be ridiculously high level, so yes he can own low level mechas barehanded. :p

Anyway, how about a pilot feat that allows you to:
-Use your pilot maneuvers and stances on foot (each only once per ecounter).
-Inflict status effects on mechas while on foot.
-Gives you some jetpack/jetbike/bionic legs that turn your movement into mecha type for a short burst of time.

That would take care of the "pilot left on foot can still keep facing enemies head on".

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on June 14, 2013, 08:13:34 PM
That seems like a pretty powerful feat.

Oh, actually, what if you incorporated using Spirit with the pilot feat idea to use mecha maneuvers and stances outside of your mecha? Because, like, its Spirit. Like, um....gosh I don't quite know how to explain what I mean.  :-\
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on June 14, 2013, 10:26:43 PM
You mean using Spirit instead of Energy to use maneuvers on foot, since spirit is to the pilot kind of what energy is to a mecha? Sorta?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 14, 2013, 10:29:42 PM
You mean using Spirit instead of Energy to use maneuvers on foot, since spirit is to the pilot kind of what energy is to a mecha? Sorta?

I think that's similar to something I was pondering for a spirit focused class--when they run out of energy or HP, spirit can be substituted instead. :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on June 14, 2013, 10:35:11 PM
You mean using Spirit instead of Energy to use maneuvers on foot, since spirit is to the pilot kind of what energy is to a mecha? Sorta?

Sorta, yeah.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 16, 2013, 10:29:18 AM
You mean using Spirit instead of Energy to use maneuvers on foot, since spirit is to the pilot kind of what energy is to a mecha? Sorta?

I think that's similar to something I was pondering for a spirit focused class--when they run out of energy or HP, spirit can be substituted instead. :lmao

The thing is, spirits can still be used by pilots on foot.

The 1/ecounter mecha maneuver was suposed to be a desesperation move.

For example here's Kouji Kabuto using Rocket Punch when unable to acess the Mazinger. (http://www.mangareader.net/930-37868-27/shin-mazinger-zero/chapter-2.html) Definetely something you can't pull twice in the same ecounter, regardless of how strong your spirit is. :p

Anyway, any objections against the feat?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 16, 2013, 10:32:49 AM
No objections on my part, though I should point out that for the thing I was thinking of there, they'd still be in the mecha.

If you can't power your robot through hot bloodedness, you're doing something wrong and I think both the TTGL and Getter Robo universes are going to be disappointed in you. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 16, 2013, 10:54:28 AM
Increased the energy cost from The Gravity Wall and Gravity Wall prototype to 15 and 10 respectively.

Also following Raine Daze's sugestion on the Phantasy Star campaign, you can quickly get a weaker robot/ship if your main one gets destroyed to help you in your quest.

Feat should come up later today, need food now.

No objections on my part, though I should point out that for the thing I was thinking of there, they'd still be in the mecha.

If you can't power your robot through hot bloodedness, you're doing something wrong and I think both the TTGL and Getter Robo universes are going to be disappointed in you. :p
Well, that's for what spirits are for. You can use them to make your mechas keep going, deal more damage, act faster, etc.

As for Getter, I still have to figure out some mechanics for 3-member combineable robots. :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on June 16, 2013, 01:27:12 PM
Not sure about the escape pod ruling being one size bigger than the pilot.
I seem to recall a ruling that the pilot cannot be larger than the mecha, so a mecha's minimum size is equal to the pilot's (in cases of very large pilots and/or very small mechas through miniaturization abilities).
If the escape pod is bigger than the mecha, something fishy is going on.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 16, 2013, 01:28:45 PM
Maybe if you're as big as your mecha, there's no escape pod and you're just ejected 1d12x5 MU?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on June 16, 2013, 03:22:58 PM
I've been idly contemplating the idea of a Super Pilot who picked the max number of miniaturization upgrades, such that they have a mecha diminutive (which translates to large) robot at lv12.

 Such a character could technically bring their mecha anywhere that an average party would be expected to go, and thus adventure in their mecha at all times.

Would having one character in a party able to use mecha scale when it suited them cause serious balance problems?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on June 16, 2013, 03:39:23 PM
Well, that would be getting pretty close to a Moon Vanguard's nanoarmor that is always working on Mu scale.  :tongue
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 16, 2013, 03:42:24 PM
You'd probably have to slow down in confined spaces unless you like smashing into walls. :rolleyes
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on June 16, 2013, 03:57:33 PM
Naaah. These are all equipped with the same technology installed in those vacuum-cleaner-bots. They scan the area in front of them and make turns automatically.
They can also ignore the ongoing forces of their own acceleration whenever they make sharp turns.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 16, 2013, 04:22:09 PM
Maybe if you're as big as your mecha, there's no escape pod and you're just ejected 1d12x5 MU?
Done.

I've been idly contemplating the idea of a Super Pilot who picked the max number of miniaturization upgrades, such that they have a mecha diminutive (which translates to large) robot at lv12.

 Such a character could technically bring their mecha anywhere that an average party would be expected to go, and thus adventure in their mecha at all times.

Would having one character in a party able to use mecha scale when it suited them cause serious balance problems?
Average parties don't have large party members. Whatever limitations can prevent the players from just crashing Not-Mazinger into wherever they want to go can be applied to diminutive mechas as well.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on June 16, 2013, 05:30:27 PM
Average lv12 parties? There's lots of ways to be permanently large at that level, even sticking to published material.

Average homebrew enabled parties will have large members sooner.

The rest of your post made no sense to me. I think I missed a reference or an earlier conversation or something. What are the limitations you allude to?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 16, 2013, 05:43:01 PM
What, you mean you don't give the druid and persistent cleric good reasons to drop their size buffs now and then? :p

Average size-changing homebrew also usually includes options to turn to more manageable sizes.

Limitations can include narrow portals/tunnels where only a small creature fits naturally. Medium creatures can squeeze in. Large ones not. Said portals/tunnels are key parts of an important structure you don't want wrecked no matter what, meaning you can't just smash an hole with brute force to make room for bigger guys.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 16, 2013, 05:46:33 PM
Level 16, fine-MU mecha.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on June 16, 2013, 07:58:15 PM
What, you mean you don't give the druid and persistent cleric good reasons to drop their size buffs now and then? :p

Average size-changing homebrew also usually includes options to turn to more manageable sizes.

Limitations can include narrow portals/tunnels where only a small creature fits naturally. Medium creatures can squeeze in. Large ones not. Said portals/tunnels are key parts of an important structure you don't want wrecked no matter what, meaning you can't just smash an hole with brute force to make room for bigger guys.

So if someone chose to play a medium sized mounted charger and focused on it to the point that they sucked without their mount, you would force them to abandon it on a regular basis?

The hypothetical diminutive mecha pilot isn't in any worse a situation than the mount based character above. They just get out of their mecha and fight (or find a role that doesn't require that.)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 17, 2013, 10:50:19 AM
Last time I checked, mounted chargers indeed prefer to be small-sized in order to ride a medium-sized mount so they don't risk facing themselves with enemies in 5-feet passages.

Not to mention classes like the paladin get to call their mounts only when needed pokemon-style.

As for level 16 fine mecha, well, I guess I'll just have to remove that option and limit miniaturization to diminutive mechas.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 17, 2013, 01:32:26 PM
Last time I checked, mounted chargers indeed prefer to be small-sized in order to ride a medium-sized mount so they don't risk facing themselves with enemies in 5-feet passages.

Not to mention classes like the paladin get to call their mounts only when needed pokemon-style.

As for level 16 fine mecha, well, I guess I'll just have to remove that option and limit miniaturization to diminutive mechas.

Aww, but that's such a high level there's surely worse things you could be doing by that point? Like laser-cannoning every fixed obstacle and sifting through the rubble? :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 18, 2013, 06:40:11 PM
New batch of feats added, also pimped up Prevail, Guardian, Predict and Attacker a bit. Any comments here please.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 18, 2013, 06:55:48 PM
Ace Legend = constant +10 to Dodge AC? :huh

Bit amused that you specified Love here, didn't think all Real Pilots were Casanova wannabes.

Wargear is almost the Real Pilot capstone, and it's a lot more usable. Plus that entire supply thing raises so many questions about how it's being executed if, say, you're on a stealth mission or something, or supposed to be acting independently. Ditto for sudden Mecha Mook.

Same thing--constant Energy-free Gravity Wall, instead of constant +10 AC.

Come to Me presumably has the potential for the same issues as the Real Pilot spontaneous arrival stuff.

Pure Crafting? Really? A completely system, just for a single feat? The basic options don't even seem that good, for mecha. :eh

Your choice of skills here isn't very good (Strength and Con are not known for their wonderful array of skills) in comparison to free Knowledge, observation, and stealth ranks. :p

The communications stuff seems more like a tax on feats and maneuvers than a handy option, especially not the communications (because it cripples energy recovery)

The Warp stuff reminds me of Gunbuster, and it's nice to see really long range travel somewhere, but... again, seems kind of like a tax. :/

Prevail is definitely a lot more worth it... if you can keep your HP in that area. Same for Attacker and Guardian, if the individual enemies are strong enough. Still kind of situational, but better than previously.

EDIT: Possibly the most grating thing about the Ship Captain feat: one of its abilities is more flavourful than practical, two are practically obligatory, and it requires a feat that focuses on personal combat when it's mostly a support package.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 18, 2013, 07:15:04 PM
Ace Legend and An Ally of Justice grant the feat, but you still need to activate it in the case of Evade/Defend.

The detail with wargear supply is that it's one level lower of what you can usually get (plus you need either swift+move or double move to get it). How they get there ? Who knows. Maybe just by crashing in at high speed. Maybe they were there all along waiting for you, prepared in advance.

Come to Me is an iconic super robot ability.

I needed 4 options per feat but couldn't remember anything else, so yes pure crafting ho!  :p

Cha still beats everything else in the skills department.

Communication/Warp isn't that much of a tax if you take in account you can only benefit from one at a time. So if you're in combat you can always switch to the bonus feats, whereas the Real/Super need to drop their bonus feats to benefit from the other stuff.

EDIT: And what if I drop the Born To Fight prerequisite from Heaven-Sailing Dragon?

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 18, 2013, 07:22:54 PM
If they're so good at infiltration into Places Lesser Men Dare Not Go, why are we the heroes, again? Nevertheless, a bunch of useful Arsenal equipment is lower level, since you just don't have space (and it alternates shields/armour, so if you only have one in your basic load-out, you can casually grab the other).

Come to Me is definitely iconic, I just find it a bit odd, since there's the 'HOW THE HELL DID THIS GET HERE' thing. Though maybe all Super Robots are now Nono. That would work.

I mean that their utility--long distance communication and transport--make spending the two feats pretty obligatory, especially if the campaign is tending towards space opera.

I honestly don't think Pure Crafting is that useful. You only get the plain benefits; the weaponry doesn't come with Power, Rending or an attack bonus; several materials for armour and shields are pretty useless in these situations; and all the good defensive benefits require two matching items. If you have any good SU abilities or UMD tools, they're also getting in the way. So, uh... not the best addition. Hmm...

EDIT: Without the prerequisite, it's a lot more attractive. Spend a feat at level 6 (if you've been focusing on a very support-oriented ship rather than BEAMCANNON, HO), get the communication and transport.

Not entirely sure of the utility of Jamming, but eh. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 18, 2013, 07:41:00 PM
They're not that good. You are that good, and it's only thanks to your tactical genius that they got so far ahead. And then they die and you're still alive to tell the story. :p

Pretty much every named Kurogane No Linebarrel character with a personal robot can use Come to Me,  and there's quite a bit of named characters with personal robots in that series.  :P
(click to show/hide)

Over the Top now allows you to grant Pure Metal properties to one of your mecha's weapons.

Removed Born to Fight from Heaven-Sailing Dragon prerequisites.

Changed jamming to just reduce energy recovery if you're using it simultaneously with commonications. It's useful to prevent enemies from alerting the rest of the planet and stuff.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 18, 2013, 07:46:33 PM
Hm...

Question

Does Pure Adamantine's 'ignore half DR' stack with... Rending, I think it is? (An exception to the not-granting-rending thing, but since that's all it would do... @_@)

Only other useful metals look like Pure Iron and Pure Mythril, Gold is a diplomatic tool, Silver is anti-undead, and Cold Iron is more Caster focused.  :lmao

Teleporting Super Robot! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFppdq6vEPg) XD
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on June 19, 2013, 04:34:18 AM
Come to Me can be abused terribly I feel like because of this
"...It arrives instantly and at full energy..."

Whats to stop some one from hopping out of their still operational but low on energy (or out of energy) mecha in the middle of a battle, using some extra move actions thing, and immediately using Come to Me to refill the energy and hop back in one round? Something like giving this option a cooldown could maybe help with that. Or making it usable only once per encounter? Better yet, it only works when the mecha has more than a certain level of energy? Say 1/2 or 2/3?

I dunno. *shrugs*

Edit: What was edited into the Super Robots List? I'm not seeing mention of anything or I'm missing something.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on June 21, 2013, 06:53:05 PM
It now requires it to be at full energy, so that line becomes redundant.
Should there be a pilot feat for Into the Dangerzone too?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 21, 2013, 08:31:08 PM
Yeah I edited that one, but forgot to point it out here. Busy busy.

And there should be a pilot feat for Into the Danger Zone. When I get another burst of inspiration. :p
(ideas welcome tough)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 22, 2013, 10:45:59 AM
Feat suggestion: 'Advanced Combat Model' or somesuch. Let's an Android have one Accessory in addition to their weapon. Again, non-functional in the mecha.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 22, 2013, 11:11:07 AM
Good idea, done.

Also changed the Strike spirit cost to 30.

Speaking of which, can anyone sugest me how an ideal layout would be for this when I have the time to organize? One new thread for all mecha general rules, including muticlassing notes?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 22, 2013, 11:18:03 AM
Right, as I see it:


Aside from rearranging, there's also making sure that all the rules for a single property etc. are in one place rather than needing multiple disparate threads open to check the ruling for something (this especially crops up with the Super Robot list, where it references the Real Robot thread)

I can't say there's anything else I can think of that's necessary, but I'd condense all four schools into one thread, or get  a subforum and put them in there. :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on June 22, 2013, 11:45:57 AM
I second the mech merge. Set up all the rules to the mechs in a single thread. All the upgrade rules, cost, and who can take then in a single post rather than two threads, etc.

When you merged your Funnel Feats into the main Feat thread you now have a half empty Funnel thread that contains enough. The thread should probably be deleted, or at least contain copypasta.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 08, 2013, 12:40:14 PM
Will take care of the great re-organization once I've stablized my D&D campaigns.

Meanwhile, mechas now ignore hardness and DR against non-mecha targets smaller than themselves.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 20, 2013, 11:40:00 AM
I'm having trouble working out how Who The Hell Do You Think I Am is supposed to work. What does it... you know, do?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 20, 2013, 11:47:05 AM
Buffs two skills of your choice (or two of Str, Con or Cha checks) until you end it or activate another option of I am Invincible!

The insight bonus is equal to the highest level Burning Justice maneuver you can use.

On another note, hopefully I'll  be able to finally make the big clean-up around here this weekend.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 20, 2013, 11:48:34 AM
Any of those skills, or just those you don't have ranks in?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 20, 2013, 02:10:27 PM
Those you dont have ranks in, correct.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on July 20, 2013, 02:47:04 PM
The new Ship Captain feat, Veteran Mechanics says:
Quote
The ship itself may be repaired in just two weeks if reduced to 0 HP, or 20% of its max HP per hour of interrupted work if still at positive HP.

Should be "uninterrupted", shouldn't it?

Also, Engineering Bay sounds like a really cool feat after reading the part about a hybrid Real/Super ship being able to reconstruct itself.
It's kinda like a really, really slow transformation scene  :D
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 20, 2013, 02:49:29 PM
The new Ship Captain feat, Veteran Mechanics says:
Quote
The ship itself may be repaired in just two weeks if reduced to 0 HP, or 20% of its max HP per hour of interrupted work if still at positive HP.

Should be "uninterrupted", shouldn't it?

Also, Engineering Bay sounds like a really cool feat after reading the part about a hybrid Real/Super ship being able to reconstruct itself.
It's kinda like a really, really slow transformation scene  :D

No, no, the transformation scene is when the ship goes from a ship to an absolutely huge robot.

They're not actually new feats, Os has just started rearranging things. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on July 20, 2013, 02:55:59 PM
They're new to me :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 20, 2013, 03:28:36 PM
Well looks like the new organization is producing results already! :P

That should be it for now. Merged pilots threads with their respective machines, consolidated a bunch of rules bits on the sticky post, updated index, locked threads no longer in use, overhauled funnels to hopefully make them more simple and efficient.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on July 20, 2013, 04:09:02 PM
Thank you.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on July 20, 2013, 09:57:26 PM
Question about the discipline pilot feats:
They say they require you to be in the right stance and that "You cannot start one while another is still active tough."
Now.
Is being in the stance necessary only for the activation or must the stance be kept to maintain any continuous effects?

Shooting Star, Cut Trough the Night: Making sure I got this right.

Ace Legend: I imagine that if a relationship feat is taken for this option, its requirements must be fulfilled as normal? Meaning, you can only use it on someone you actually love. That said I'm unsure why Love better fits real pilots and Rivalry better fits super pilots. Might make more sense to grant any relationship fit instead of a specific one.

Supply drop: Locks you out of using the other options from the moment you use it, including the 1d3 delay and until the drop is used/expires.
The feat also makes a distinction between using a drop (to prevent it from expiring after 5 rounds) and picking them up.
It does not mention the action needed to equip/use/activate them after picking them up. Wargear seems to add an additional 5 seconds of use on top of how long it took to use it. The drone doesn't say how long it lasts after being activated if left unattacked. It is unsure if the drone can be activate more than once to have it move again on successive rounds.

Natural Leader: It locks you out of using the other options for as long as the mook is around. The oddity of seeing every loyal henchmen you ever call get destroyed randomly aside, what is the level of that mecha mook, and is there a way to send him off early to be able to use your other options without waiting for him to explode?

I am Invincible!

Come to Me: You're saying it is at full energy twice. The second one can be taken out seeing how you already put it as a requirement for the option's use.

Over the Top: It seems you must have the pure metal thing to be used with this option. You don't temporarily spawn one out of nowhere like the real pilot discipline feat like, say, bigass pure metal mecha sunglasses. From the moment you start integrating the thing, you get locked out of using the other options, and that until after the 1d3 rounds to remove it are done.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 20, 2013, 10:01:15 PM
If Over the Top needs the actual item... uh, what. That effectively makes it a three feat requirement to use the whole feat.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on July 21, 2013, 02:16:32 AM
Can't you just buy the thing or have someone else craft it for you?
It would be logical to need the piece to be used as there is no guideline for what kind of pure metal thingy could be spawned otherwise.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 21, 2013, 06:21:30 AM
Question about the discipline pilot feats:
They say they require you to be in the right stance and that "You cannot start one while another is still active tough."
Now.
Is being in the stance necessary only for the activation or must the stance be kept to maintain any continuous effects?
You must remain in a stance of the respective school, altough you can change between diferent stances from the same discipline.

Shooting Star, Cut Trough the Night: Making sure I got this right.

Ace Legend: I imagine that if a relationship feat is taken for this option, its requirements must be fulfilled as normal? Meaning, you can only use it on someone you actually love. That said I'm unsure why Love better fits real pilots and Rivalry better fits super pilots. Might make more sense to grant any relationship fit instead of a specific one.
What can I say, Real Pilots seem to be the ones that actually try to advance relationships with their loved ones, while super pilots are too busy being angst/hotblooded and showing off to actually try to stablish a deeper connection with another being of the same size (totally unbiased opinion as my current avatar proves :p)

Supply drop: Locks you out of using the other options from the moment you use it, including the 1d3 delay and until the drop is used/expires.
The feat also makes a distinction between using a drop (to prevent it from expiring after 5 rounds) and picking them up.
It does not mention the action needed to equip/use/activate them after picking them up. Wargear seems to add an additional 5 seconds of use on top of how long it took to use it. The drone doesn't say how long it lasts after being activated if left unattacked. It is unsure if the drone can be activate more than once to have it move again on successive rounds.
[/quote]
Hmm, good points, removed the 1d3 rounds delay and tweaked a bit the supply drop effects.


Natural Leader: It locks you out of using the other options for as long as the mook is around. The oddity of seeing every loyal henchmen you ever call get destroyed randomly aside, what is the level of that mecha mook, and is there a way to send him off early to be able to use your other options without waiting for him to explode?
More good points, tweaked that one a bit as well.

I am Invincible!

Come to Me: You're saying it is at full energy twice. The second one can be taken out seeing how you already put it as a requirement for the option's use.
Done.

Over the Top: It seems you must have the pure metal thing to be used with this option. You don't temporarily spawn one out of nowhere like the real pilot discipline feat like, say, bigass pure metal mecha sunglasses. From the moment you start integrating the thing, you get locked out of using the other options, and that until after the 1d3 rounds to remove it are done.
Allowed option to spawn lesser pute metal items out of nowhere. Also clarified the removal is instant.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on July 21, 2013, 11:54:01 AM
Alright cool.
Here's some thoughts on usage and such.

I like how you made leaving some of the continuous effects a swift/move - it made switching between two stances less of an effective way to efficiently cancel them to use other options.

Supply Drop (Energy Tank) - Kinda feels like Wargear. Wargear can give you an energy regen+ arsenal gizmos. This one though stacks with them, though, so once you get this feat, considering 5 rounds is half a minute - and this thing can be used once per minute - it becomes rather hard to ever fall out of energy.

Natural Leader - Now that the timer is removed and the dude stays until the effect is discontinued, it feels better to have it on an hourly cooldown. It clearly isn't the intent but since the minion is now kinda-permanent, it means that every hour you can call an additional single mecha mook, and slowly build a little army. Unless the hour cooldown begins from the moment the mecha mook is dismissed/destroyed.
Problem I can imagine with this option granting the capability to spawn him anywhere is how neat it can be used in puzzle situations and such. Say you see a lever at the other side of a gauntlet of obstacles of all kinds that would stop the timer of the self destruction of the base you're in or whatever, and you make the mook appear next to it. You easily defeat the gauntlet/puzzle/other. It is also probably pretty useful if you get imprisoned: Make the dude appear every hour, bypassing every security measures of the great prison and try to break out.

Over the Top - Just a thought, can you remove the pure metal item even if you aren't in the mecha? You might feel funny next time you try to call your mecha and you remember you forgot to remove those pure metal sunglasses before leaving it in that one dump (though there is always that stance swapping trick to take care of it).

Good work all-round.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 21, 2013, 04:17:44 PM
Thanks!

Both Energy Tank and personal mook are considered effects from that feat, so you can't use them again or one of the other effects while they last. You can keep them around all the time yes, but that then cuts down your options.

Being useful in puzzle situations is fully intended for those feats, so pilots aren't just big hulking brutes. Friends showing up of nowhere to rescue you from the enemy fortress is a classic after all. Just be prepared for the alarm to be raised when they press said lever and they get shot to bits, leaving you to find a way out for the next hour. :p

Which reminds me I had some drafts for more exotic types of grenades. And still have the expanded real robot list to finish.

Integrating/removing items with Over the Top doesn't seem to actually demand you being inside your mecha. I'll leave it like that for now since your robot throwing you your personal sword does sound like the kind of stuff you should be able to do. :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 23, 2013, 09:33:07 PM
Is there a reason the Gravity Wall Prototype is basically more effective? :huh

10 energy for (InitialDamage-DR)/2 as the outcome (prototype)
15 energy for InitialDamage/2-DR as the outcome.

The second can potentially reduce it to 0--but the former actually works out as InitialDamage/2-2*DR.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 24, 2013, 04:57:04 AM
Let's say you take 50 damage and have 20 DR.

Prototype: apply DR (30 damage) and divide by 2 (take 15 damage).

Regular: divide by 2 (25 damage) and apply DR (take just 5 damage).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 24, 2013, 08:09:07 AM
For reasons I am not quite awake enough to decipher, the regular always has a 10 damage advantage. Never mind, then.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 09, 2013, 07:14:48 PM
Added a bunch of special weapons, a new Relationship feat (Devotion), Dandy Pilot feat for Into the Danger Zone and buffed up Friendship a bit by making the bonus scaling.

On a completely unrelated note, I had finally managed to watch Diebuster 1 and 2 at the end of the last month.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 09, 2013, 07:18:42 PM
Added a bunch of special weapons, a new Relationship feat (Devotion), Dandy Pilot feat for Into the Danger Zone and buffed up Friendship a bit by making the bonus scaling.

On a completely unrelated note, I had finally managed to watch Diebuster 1 and 2 at the end of the last month.

So... you mean you've seen Gunbuster and Diebuster and now have some idea what I'm talking about if I start rambling about space monsters? :p

EDIT: Oh, hey, Nono feat. Though I say Love is more fitting, but it is only a 6-episode OVA, so... XD
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 09, 2013, 07:23:03 PM
But of course.

It also gave me a burst of inspiration to finally start working on einst/space monster horde class, altough that one will take longer as I have to figure out rules for bioships and extra-giant flesh monsters and whatnot. :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 09, 2013, 07:28:13 PM
I would advise you to not make them to scale with Gunbuster's monsters. Those things at the end? Well...

I found this thread a while back. (http://monsterarchives.proboards.com/thread/2058) They end up just a little unreasonably big. Oh, and a page on the ships. Because I always forget their names. (http://www.toponeraegunbuster.com/Gunbuster-Starships.html) Also because one of them is responsible for the... THING in Diebuster. And the other became Jupiter. :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on August 09, 2013, 09:09:05 PM
Dam, that Dandy feat for ItDZ is rather nasty. And I mean the Field Improv ability of it. Specifically I mean the extra ability added to a Rending weapon. I would love that. The rest of the feat's options are pretty underpowered, imo, compared to that one.  :tongue
Just because that is the only option I would outright want to use all the time and it can be used all the time, so long as you're in an IDZ stance.

Edit: Thinking about it, the other three options for the Dandy feat do actually look like situational abilities appropriate a tactical feat, but the Field Improv ability of the feat really isn't a situational ability it seems like. That ability alone seems more fitting of its own feat.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 14, 2013, 05:53:38 AM
After some tought, changed the rending one to halving energy recovery, much like the power one to HP.

Yes, the abilities are somewhat situational, but you get a big variety of them, so you should always have something useful (and if nothing else,  Devotion or Counter is always nice to have).

No comments on the new special weapons added to the arsenal?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 14, 2013, 08:11:32 AM
New special weapons? I have no idea, sorry. I'm not even sure which ones you added. @_@
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 14, 2013, 11:03:02 AM
Every one below Weapon Breaker.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on August 25, 2013, 12:11:56 PM
Question one of the super robot upgrades:
Quote
Mighty:You can expend 1 energy to make all of the super robot's in built weapons deal +1 damage. In the case of the main weapon it deals +2 damage instead. Picking this option multiple times allows you to spend extra energy to get a bigger bonus.
Is the bonus to the weapon's damage meant to last one one round or do you reduce your max energy for a given damage boost and the damage bonus lasts, like some kind of energy based Power Attack?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 25, 2013, 06:51:53 PM
You spend energy per attack in an individual basis.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on August 25, 2013, 09:50:48 PM
Then it is unclear since it says all your weapons get that buff whenever you activate it. It would clearer if it was one weapon at a time; the one whose dmg is being buffed. If all weapons get one buffed attack per use then just add that it applies only on their next attack instead of an indefinite amount of time.

Also curious as to why you can get the hyper jammer in the Arsenal but not the regular jammer.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on August 27, 2013, 10:49:17 AM
Another question that just stroke me.
Mechas are destroyed when they reach 0 hit points, but what happens if they take nonlethal damage equal to their remaining hit points (or more). Are they disabled?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 29, 2013, 11:35:39 AM
Then it is unclear since it says all your weapons get that buff whenever you activate it. It would clearer if it was one weapon at a time; the one whose dmg is being buffed. If all weapons get one buffed attack per use then just add that it applies only on their next attack instead of an indefinite amount of time.
Should be clarified now.

Also curious as to why you can get the hyper jammer in the Arsenal but not the regular jammer.
Very well, just let me decide what level it should be.

Another question that just stroke me.
Mechas are destroyed when they reach 0 hit points, but what happens if they take nonlethal damage equal to their remaining hit points (or more). Are they disabled?
As machines, mechas are immune to nonlethal damage, just as you can't deal nonlethal damage to a house or catapult.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: veekie on August 30, 2013, 11:33:35 AM
Theoretically you could deliver disabling attacks in the form of energy overloads, damaging sensors, vents or joints, but mecha design is too varied for it to be consistent.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 30, 2013, 11:55:37 AM
And attacking such sensible weaknesses will utterly fail when you get to super robots. Logical weak points? What're they? :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: veekie on August 30, 2013, 12:02:31 PM
Actually most of those examples I've seen are in Super Robot media. The monster-of-the-day loves to use an obscure attack to disable the super robot so they actually have to try something different so that their finishing move works.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 30, 2013, 12:11:44 PM
Actually most of those examples I've seen are in Super Robot media. The monster-of-the-day loves to use an obscure attack to disable the super robot so they actually have to try something different so that their finishing move works.

I said sensible. If it's obscure or requires being a particular monster, isn't that already not sensible? :p

Mmm, but it was more a comment on the 'variable design' thing. No two Super Robots seem to share a design, ever, so they all end up with slightly different weaknesses, making 'destroy them' basically the only option.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: veekie on August 30, 2013, 12:39:05 PM
More that things like redundancies, backup systems and shielding seem to happen more in Reals, giving them a graceful failure path as you take out their primary systems and cripple the secondaries.
For supers you just need to target their unobtainium, or pour glue on their joints.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 30, 2013, 12:40:11 PM
More that things like redundancies, backup systems and shielding seem to happen more in Reals, giving them a graceful failure path as you take out their primary systems and cripple the secondaries.
For supers you just need to target their unobtainium, or pour glue on their joints.

And pray that the pilot is asleep or something so it actually... sticks? :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on September 06, 2013, 04:55:40 PM
A Numan gets this ability:
Quote
Mixed Heritage: A Numan can count himself as any race for qualifying for feats, class abilities and prestige classes. If a Numan picks Monster Blooded, she automatically gains the related Monster Hybrid feat.
Perhaps it would be better to rephrase to say that the Numan can simply enter the respective monstrous classes as if he had the related Monster Hybrid feat as opposed to actually acquiring the feat. Otherwise a Numan could choose EVERY feat he gains to be a Monster Blooded feat and just retrain or "Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos" the free Monster Hybrid feats into something else, effectively getting a number of ability points equal to the amount of feats they would normally have (or more if the feats replacing the Monster Hybrid feats are more Monster Blooded feats).
The infinite ability score cheat is easy to DM ban but I thought I'd point it out.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on September 09, 2013, 02:20:41 AM
Another thing that just got me thinking.
Mecha's aren't affected by abilities that increase their size, but what about abilities like Powerful Build? That abilities allows you to behave as if you were bigger without actually being bigger. If it does carry over to the mecha, does it allow it to use its weapons as if it was bigger as well, die size increase and so on?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 09, 2013, 08:56:06 AM
A Numan gets this ability:
Quote
Mixed Heritage: A Numan can count himself as any race for qualifying for feats, class abilities and prestige classes. If a Numan picks Monster Blooded, she automatically gains the related Monster Hybrid feat.
Perhaps it would be better to rephrase to say that the Numan can simply enter the respective monstrous classes as if he had the related Monster Hybrid feat as opposed to actually acquiring the feat. Otherwise a Numan could choose EVERY feat he gains to be a Monster Blooded feat and just retrain or "Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos" the free Monster Hybrid feats into something else, effectively getting a number of ability points equal to the amount of feats they would normally have (or more if the feats replacing the Monster Hybrid feats are more Monster Blooded feats).
The infinite ability score cheat is easy to DM ban but I thought I'd point it out.
That falls on my auto-ban list, but I guess editing your suggestion doesn't hurt.

Another thing that just got me thinking.
Mecha's aren't affected by abilities that increase their size, but what about abilities like Powerful Build? That abilities allows you to behave as if you were bigger without actually being bigger. If it does carry over to the mecha, does it allow it to use its weapons as if it was bigger as well, die size increase and so on?
Clarified that Powerful Build doesn't apply as well.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on September 10, 2013, 08:59:52 AM
I cannot find a note on the subject of Heavy weapons being used for pilot maneuvers.
Many maneuvers allow you to do something that involves making an attack with a weapon of your choice, but most of these maneuvers take a standard action while a Heavy weapon normally requires a fullround action. Unless a ruling is done on using Heavy weapons for these maneuvers, it makes it possible to use them as a standard action with these maneuvers. Just in case it was not intended.

IE:
Quote
Disabling Hit (Ace Pilot LvL 2 maneuver)
Standard action initiation
When you initiate this strike, make a single attack against an enemy. If you hit with that choose one weapon of your enemy. That enemy can't use that weapon for until the beginning of your next turn.

Then there are maneuvers like Return Fire (Ace Pilot 2) that allows you to make an attack as an immediate action as part of the counter. Not sure a weapon used with a fullround action is supposed to be usable as an immediate action with a level 2 counter.

Another concern:
Quote
Area:Instead of a normal shot, you may make the weapon fire a  line with the width of your mecha and the same lenght as the first range increment of the weapon. Roll to hit against all targets inside the line. If you target an oponent bigger than you with this, the line needs to pass trough the middle of their position.
I wasn't under the impression that mecha ranged weapons had range increments.
I see they have a 'range' section, which seems to be fixed.
A Gespent's Split Missiles have a 50 mu range. Are those meant to actually be a range increment? If so, the misunderstanding is probably due to maneuvers and spells having a range indicator, while weapons generally have a range increment property rather than a range property.

Since I'm already talking of maneuver range, here is a question on Multitarget (Ace Pilot 3)
Quote
When you initiate this maneuver, you may perform one basic attack against each enemy within reach of your weapon.
The maneuvers mentions 'reach' but it can be used with any weapon and is limited by ammo. The description, along with the maneuver's name, suggest that it is also meant to be used with ranged weapons, but ranged weapons have range/range increment and little reach to speak of. Is it meant to use a ranged weapon's range instead of its reach?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 10, 2013, 12:53:39 PM
Yes, maneuvers that allow you to fire weapons as standard/immediate also work for heavy weapons, and Support Attack works as well.

Quote from: Anomander
Quote
Area:Instead of a normal shot, you may make the weapon fire a  line with the width of your mecha and the same lenght as the first range increment of the weapon. Roll to hit against all targets inside the line. If you target an oponent bigger than you with this, the line needs to pass trough the middle of their position.
I wasn't under the impression that mecha ranged weapons had range increments.
I see they have a 'range' section, which seems to be fixed.
A Gespent's Split Missiles have a 50 mu range. Are those meant to actually be a range increment? If so, the misunderstanding is probably due to maneuvers and spells having a range indicator, while weapons generally have a range increment property rather than a range property.
You're right, replaced Range with Range Increment on the Real Robots and Arsenal lists.

Quote from: Anomander
Since I'm already talking of maneuver range, here is a question on Multitarget (Ace Pilot 3)
Quote
When you initiate this maneuver, you may perform one basic attack against each enemy within reach of your weapon.
The maneuvers mentions 'reach' but it can be used with any weapon and is limited by ammo. The description, along with the maneuver's name, suggest that it is also meant to be used with ranged weapons, but ranged weapons have range/range increment and little reach to speak of. Is it meant to use a ranged weapon's range instead of its reach?
Yes.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on September 26, 2013, 08:07:10 AM
(click to show/hide)

How do you use this with any kind of attack action that isn't just an AoO, barring doing something to give yourself extra standard/fullround actions. Cause it would expire before your next normally available standard/full attack action.  :-\
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 26, 2013, 07:13:19 PM
It was suposed to be a swift action, fixed.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 28, 2013, 04:04:17 AM
Miniaturization (SRU) states it can be selected once every 4th pilot level, down to diminutive at pilot level 12. Shouldn't it end at Fine at pilot level 16, as colossal is?

Also, if your mecha is shrunk to diminutive/tiny, its reach on mecha scale becomes 0 mu. If you translate that to normal scale, 0 mu is also 0 feet.
So does a mecha that is diminutive/tiny on mecha scale and medium/large on regular scale have to enter the space of those it means to attack in order to hit them, since their regular scale reach is technically 0 feet?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 28, 2013, 06:12:22 AM
I'm curious why a small creature can't get all the way down to Mecha Size Fine (since isn't Diminutive Large?)

I think your problem here, Ano, is using its mecha scale reach rather than just calculating reach fresh for its size on the normal scale.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 28, 2013, 06:53:06 AM
I know that would be the normal thing to do. But I'm talking straight conversion of scale since mechas weren't meant to behave on normal scale and that is how they technically should work as written (since Medium-size in MU is colossal-size in normal, but its stats are always those of a medium-sized creature on both scales).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 28, 2013, 06:54:45 AM
So... why are we adopting the counter-intuitive approach when this stuff has, to my knowledge, been used once? :huh
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 28, 2013, 07:11:14 AM
I am not adopting it. It is merely read as written. Maybe this is supposed to happen for all I know.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 28, 2013, 07:15:25 AM
So... what? You're extrapolating that from size penalties not applying against normal-scale enemies to 'reach does not increase from 0'? Despite the fact that a Medium-sized mecha (in normal terms) is fully capable of moving and of humanoid dimensions, and would consequently have at least 5' reach?

... also, this makes me really want to play an Anthromorphic Animal Butterfly Sneaky Type//Super Pilot (if only I could find a way to get those last two size categories down. :()
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 28, 2013, 07:43:27 AM
Not really. I am asking if, because Tiny/Diminutive mu-sized mechas are using the same stats as Tiny/Diminutive-sized creatures on normal scale, they also share the reach of 0 feet/0 mu.

A Diminutive mecha has the same space as a large creature, but it is not large. They have the stats of a diminutive creature except for weapon size. A medium-sized creature would have the same trouble hitting the size bonus to AC of that mecha as if it was diminutive even though it is larger that it is.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 28, 2013, 07:53:23 AM
But that's size bonuses, not reach. Need more evidence than that to justify making the size rules even wordier. :/
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 28, 2013, 07:58:49 AM
No no no. That was only an example of why a Diminutive mecha isn't treated the same as a large creature.
Quote
Miniaturization: The super robot becomes one size category smaller, gaining all standard advantages and penalties except ability score changes, and it's Natural armor and In Built weapons damage doesn't change either. This can only be taken once for every 4 pilot levels, up to diminutive size at 12th pilot level.
Notice that it states that all the standard advantages and penalties are gained. This is meant to include reach, I would think.

Also, the Sentient SRU Imprint states the SuRo gets its pilot's stats while it is out of it. Are these stats meant to be limited to his ability scores, or is it all his stats, in general.

The Transform: Fighter also increases your speed by 1.5
Just to make it isn't multiplying it by 1.5 instead of adding 1.5 your speed.
Someone with a speed of 30 in the former would have 45 and 75 in the later (and how it is currently written).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 29, 2013, 04:29:34 PM
Miniaturization (SRU) states it can be selected once every 4th pilot level, down to diminutive at pilot level 12. Shouldn't it end at Fine at pilot level 16, as colossal is?
Because that would end with a medium-sized mecha, which is basically mechanized armor, and we already have Moon Vanguard for that.

Also, if your mecha is shrunk to diminutive/tiny, its reach on mecha scale becomes 0 mu. If you translate that to normal scale, 0 mu is also 0 feet.
So does a mecha that is diminutive/tiny on mecha scale and medium/large on regular scale have to enter the space of those it means to attack in order to hit them, since their regular scale reach is technically 0 feet?
Yes.

Also, the Sentient SRU Imprint states the SuRo gets its pilot's stats while it is out of it. Are these stats meant to be limited to his ability scores, or is it all his stats, in general.
Just ability scores, otherwise it would be redudant to include feats and skills.

The Transform: Fighter also increases your speed by 1.5
Just to make it isn't multiplying it by 1.5 instead of adding 1.5 your speed.
Someone with a speed of 30 in the former would have 45 and 75 in the later (and how it is currently written).
Multiplications in D&D only add unless noted otherwise.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 29, 2013, 04:35:16 PM
Miniaturization (SRU) states it can be selected once every 4th pilot level, down to diminutive at pilot level 12. Shouldn't it end at Fine at pilot level 16, as colossal is?
Because that would end with a medium-sized mecha, which is basically mechanized armor, and we already have Moon Vanguard for that.

Except Moon Vanguard can grow and doesn't need for you to be smaller than the mecha itself, does it?

Also, if your mecha is shrunk to diminutive/tiny, its reach on mecha scale becomes 0 mu. If you translate that to normal scale, 0 mu is also 0 feet.
So does a mecha that is diminutive/tiny on mecha scale and medium/large on regular scale have to enter the space of those it means to attack in order to hit them, since their regular scale reach is technically 0 feet?
Yes.

Wait, so if we had one Diminutive mecha against a party of unarmoured adventurers, it would need to enter their spaces to attack? :eh
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 29, 2013, 04:48:46 PM
Moon Vanguard needs you to be smaller than the mecha itself, and the "growth" lasts a pretty short time.

Wait, so if we had one Diminutive mecha against a party of unarmoured adventurers, it would need to enter their spaces to attack? :eh

If you were fighting in mecha scale, and the mecha wanted to get in melee, yes. But the adventurers wouldn't get an aoo since their own reach would be 0.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 29, 2013, 04:51:51 PM
Moon Vanguard needs you to be smaller than the mecha itself, and the "growth" lasts a pretty short time.

... so you can only get a medium-sized mecha with a small race? No different from this. And you can still achieve the same effect as a medium-sized Moon Vanguard by picking miniaturisation whenever you can. :huh

And short time or not, it's still an option. Pick miniaturisation and you're putting finite resources towards always being small.

Quote
Wait, so if we had one Diminutive mecha against a party of unarmoured adventurers, it would need to enter their spaces to attack? :eh

If you were fighting in mecha scale, and the mecha wanted to get in melee, yes. But the adventurers wouldn't get an aoo since their own reach would be 0.
[/quote]

But on normal scale? :O
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 29, 2013, 05:30:26 PM
Moon Vanguard needs you to be smaller than the mecha itself, and the "growth" lasts a pretty short time.

... so you can only get a medium-sized mecha with a small race? No different from this. And you can still achieve the same effect as a medium-sized Moon Vanguard by picking miniaturisation whenever you can. :huh
My bad, you need to be the same size as the mecha or smaller for Moon Vanguard.

And short time or not, it's still an option. Pick miniaturisation and you're putting finite resources towards always being small.
You're missing the part where the actual mecha has mecha speed and mecha range all the time. Part of the mecha basis is that mechas won't fit in tight places where regular humanoids can escape into. But if miniaturization goes all the way to diminutive, then we have the whole evil subterranean society/underground HQ of the good guys wiped out by a single kiting supersonic mecha that easily goes anywhere the dudes on foot can, but has unmatched speed and range.

But on normal scale? :O
Then the miniaturized mecha would  be large-sized, and be able to punch them from 10 feet away.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 29, 2013, 05:38:16 PM
And short time or not, it's still an option. Pick miniaturisation and you're putting finite resources towards always being small.
You're missing the part where the actual mecha has mecha speed and mecha range all the time. Part of the mecha basis is that mechas won't fit in tight places where regular humanoids can escape into. But if miniaturization goes all the way to diminutive, then we have the whole evil subterranean society/underground HQ of the good guys wiped out by a single kiting supersonic mecha that easily goes anywhere the dudes on foot can, but has unmatched speed and range.

This is at level 16. :/

... also, are we assuming the guy in question has Spring Attack and/or Shot on the Run, here? :huh
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 29, 2013, 06:16:14 PM
The idea of having a Fine mecha was mostly intended for smaller creatures. Since a mecha cannot be smaller than his pilot to begin with. Nanoarmor have different rules since they work as armors while a mecha is more of an armed vehicle.
I don't mind your decision. It was mere curiosity.

Quote
Multiplications in D&D only add unless noted otherwise.
Yes, but in your homebrew you previously told me the contrary; multipliers stack unless you say otherwise.
If you're using it now, thought, then great!

In this case, however, it isn't a situation of multiplicative addition as ruled in D&D (that being the use of the sum of the involved multipliers instead of multiplying them together). Since there is only one multiplier, it has no other multiplier to add itself to (such as two doubles becoming a triple instead of a quadruple). You're adding a value to a stat, that value being the stat multiplied.
This situation is the question of whether the multiplied value is added to the result or if it multiplies the result.
If it is only meant to multiply the value, without any addition whatsoever, it should just multiply it instead of adding something to it.

Quote
But on normal scale? :O
Technically nothing special should happen on normal scale.
You'd have a combat map for those in normal scale and one for the mechas on mecha scale.
The diminutive mecha would share its space with the non-mechas on mecha scale to attack them.
The only problem with that is determining where the mecha is supposed to be located on normal scale, where precision actually matters to the non-mechas. Which makes Osle's ruling of giving them normal scale reach an ideal solution.
Quote
... also, are we assuming the guy in question has Spring Attack and/or Shot on the Run, here?
Nah, it is all about the fact that their movement and attack range is in MU scale. You can kite them easily when your 5ft step sends you 30ft away.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 29, 2013, 06:28:17 PM
Quote
... also, are we assuming the guy in question has Spring Attack and/or Shot on the Run, here?
Nah, it is all about the fact that their movement and attack range is in MU scale. You can kite them easily when your 5ft step sends you 30ft away.

Would still provoke an AoO (with real scale being medium) without Spring Attack, and without Shot on the Run you wouldn't be able to get far enough away to prevent retribution unless the enemies have no ranged attacks anyway, which makes kiting them kind of easy.

Plus you become vulnerable to all those AoO's you might be able to ignore.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 29, 2013, 06:46:20 PM
I'm not sure I'm following you. I don't see how those apply.
5ft steps being an example. You don't need to move in range before moving away with Shot on the Run when you can just always keep them within your insane range and move out of theirs when they get close enough (assuming large open spaces without obstacles, which works for normal mechas vs nonmecha combat anyway).
Anyway, it certainly give an advantage. Which is pretty much the one reason one would want a smaller mecha: getting in smaller places without tearing them apart.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 29, 2013, 06:58:56 PM
If a mecha is inside, I'd imagine range would be severely curtailed by default. If a mecha is not inside, this argument is moot because it's about whether allowing mecha to be Fine on an MU scale would make sense or not.

Well... going inside in a mecha is kind of the whole point of hammering down their damage like a madman. That, and hiding, and some bonuses.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on January 05, 2014, 08:34:24 AM
So on the Real Robot list we have the RapieCage at rank VI. It's Over Oxtongue Rifle B mode has a range of 75 dam?
Does this translate into 'dam huge range' or something? -_-'
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 06, 2014, 07:14:09 AM
A surviving typo from a much earlier version. Erased. Hopefully the last of its kind.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on March 14, 2014, 07:36:14 AM
Nerfed Strike to apply just to one attack, but also reduced the cost back to 20 SP.

Buffed up Assault to allow it to work with fullround maneuvers, heavy weapons and charges.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on May 29, 2014, 08:47:15 PM
I just thought of something right now while looking at my snazzy new laser in the phantasy star game.

Why don't mechas have options for adding appendages? (Adding for Supers, having multi-limbed models for Reals)

Multiweapon Fighting Mechas could be cool too  :pout
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 30, 2014, 01:46:25 PM
The Extra upgrade for Super Robots could be described as extra limbs if you wish.

Multiweapon fighting is already possible with most of the super robots. The Wild Wurger for example has the Beetle Crusher in one arm, Triple Vulkans in the other, the Raptor Wings on its back and still has a couple free hands to wield Metal Sword.

Actually, the intention was that if you take Arsenal Weapons, you can fit them in shoulders, or waist, or back, and fire them all simultaneously as long as you-re willing to take the multipweapon fighting penalties.

Which reminds me, llet us see if this weekend I can finally post an initial form of the mecha monster class. The basic idea would be that you pick one central frame with a number of slots, and then add specific bioweapons and bioupgrades from a list.

No, wait, those would be your minions. The class itself would be the queen that mass produces those. Or you can also spawn swarms of smaller monsters that attack as one entity.

Also, what would people think of ship captains being able to deploy swarms of fighter jets?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 30, 2014, 01:57:09 PM
Sort of... super-funnels?

Woo, bio-monsters! Hopefully with nothing in common with the Gunbuster/Diebuster Space Monsters because we need a humanity left. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 03, 2014, 01:18:09 PM
Right, while writing the space monster class, I wanted to add stuff like their weapons grabbing/disarming/slowing down targets. And then decided it would be worthwhile to add some new mecha weapon special properties for both standardization's sake and make weapon choice more interesting than "grab whatever deals more damage while aiming for power and/or rending".

Real Robot and Ship Captain units have already been updated, and Super Robots get a new upgrade option to add new properties to their in-built weapons (but no more than one per weapon).

Also finished stating up a decent amount of bioframes and bioweapons, but still need stuff to fill the rest of the class. Here is the rough plan so far:
-Queen can nom pretty much anything that isn't solid dry rock to make minions. She however can only keep control of a few at a time, giving them a big bonus while nearby. The rest can be given basic instincts to control their behavior to a very limited degree like Hunting or Lurking, but they don't get the stat bonus, so they're pretty much crap.
-Queen gets Real/Super spirits, can choose for a spirit to affect all of her currently controled minions with a single use instead of herself.
-Following on the above, the queen's pilot bonus feats can be transfered to minions.
-Queen herself has two main paths. Either she's a big monster herself with her own bioframe and bioweapons that can also grant mutations and whatnot, or she's a loli regular-sized humanoid that gets to pick a couple schools to learn maneuvers from. In that case the minions themselves can skip bioweapons and pick some maneuvers and stances of their own. Why? Because I love Knight Run damnit! :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 03, 2014, 03:32:42 PM
So, does the space monster class gain immunity to the insides of stars? >.>
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 13, 2014, 02:41:38 PM
So, having read the timeline first:

1) Formatting could do with improvement. For instance, the numbers are counting down--but the present day has a minus sign too? What sort of calendar system (except for geological timescales) works backwards from the current date? Record keeping would be a bitch. As would learning history.

2) Terra seems fairly inappropriate for something that isn't Earth.

3) What, no development of fusion power, or utilisation of magic as a power source? Everything still seems to be fission-powered. And nuclear fission androids sounds impractical.



Technoillithids? :O

Quote
Almost all of them Newman tough, just some very few Newmans among their numbers.

I think that line needs rewriting.



All in all, seems like an interesting start, though an editor might come in useful.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on June 14, 2014, 02:54:06 AM
Will Infernal Mechas be an actual player option as part of the Mecha Galaxy setting?
Or is that just a fluff thing.

Just sounds interesting.

Same with what appears to be the opposite (those mechas granted to servants of Machine Gods)

Sounds like stuff that could work as Alternate Class Features maybe?

Whoa, could Technotopia be some Ghost in the Shell inspired D&D stuffs? That could be interesting :D

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on June 14, 2014, 09:54:51 AM
Grork's preparations took almost 100 years. Is it supposed to be normal that he was so old when he fell in battle? Especially since it begins with him uniting the tribes... as an infant?
Though maybe he got lifespan increases from something. Fairly possible. Just a point I though possibly relevant.

There is this massive succession of huge technological breakthroughs over 200 years (from medieval tech to mechas, nuclear power, bionics/androids, cloning/gene-splicing, warp speed...), then more than three thousand years of small steps.
Its a bit odd.

Does Alpha Nei's group become a faction all the years after? Maybe across the Space Sailors?

Where does the Federation of Technotopia come from? Colonists of a planet that got a meaningful amount of influence?
They just appear as a faction right now without really saying where they come from in all of this.

That's all I got for now.

Quote
Whoa, could Technotopia be some Ghost in the Shell inspired D&D stuffs? That could be interesting :D
Oh dear yes. Though the entire population feeling against staying in a shell of flesh would be odd. Especially given the discrepancies in social classes with the poor not really being able to keep upgrading, leading to no poor caste since they all end up as semi-sentient servants. Bionics would probably be the solution, with the most part of the population using upgrades of some kind. Cyber brain, a better arm, better eyes... a fully android body... Having many AI-guided robots and androids would be a given considering the technological specialties of the faction. It would also give the possibility of groups with different mentalities. Like people in the ghettos that are mostly natural but have no means of leaving (or no desire to) and despise the unnatural replacement of body parts for mechanical/bionic 'upgrades'. Along with possible groups of beings so disconnected with material things that they mostly live in the 'net'.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 14, 2014, 10:02:15 AM
Minor pedantry: referring to something as 'the government' when it's got no centralisation or governing body at all also seems inaccurate.

It's got even less oversight than the Holy Roman Empire did towards the end. O_o
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 14, 2014, 06:15:54 PM
Thanks for the replies!

Expanded timeline, added some new stuff to the second post.

Also if any of you has run into any fantasy/sci-fi inspiring pictures that think would go nice with any of the events/factions, or that you think should be NPCs/factions, post them in!

So, having read the timeline first:

1) Formatting could do with improvement. For instance, the numbers are counting down--but the present day has a minus sign too? What sort of calendar system (except for geological timescales) works backwards from the current date? Record keeping would be a bitch. As would learning history.

2) Terra seems fairly inappropriate for something that isn't Earth.

3) What, no development of fusion power, or utilisation of magic as a power source? Everything still seems to be fission-powered. And nuclear fission androids sounds impractical.
1)Remade the year counting system.
2) New name edited in. If you have better ideas for it, I'm all hears.
3)Added fusion power to the fluff. I guess that arcane/divine mechas can count as running on magic.

Technoillithids? :O
Not my intention, but sounds like a great idea for a subfaction!

Quote
Almost all of them Newman tough, just some very few Newmans among their numbers.

I think that line needs rewriting.
Fixed.

Will Infernal Mechas be an actual player option as part of the Mecha Galaxy setting?
Or is that just a fluff thing.

Just sounds interesting.

Same with what appears to be the opposite (those mechas granted to servants of Machine Gods)

Sounds like stuff that could work as Alternate Class Features maybe?
Something I would like to work on the future yes, but for now I would rather work on expanding the fluff itself, specific rules can come later. :P

Whoa, could Technotopia be some Ghost in the Shell inspired D&D stuffs? That could be interesting :D
Definetely intended.

Grork's preparations took almost 100 years. Is it supposed to be normal that he was so old when he fell in battle? Especially since it begins with him uniting the tribes... as an infant?
Though maybe he got lifespan increases from something. Fairly possible. Just a point I though possibly relevant.

There is this massive succession of huge technological breakthroughs over 200 years (from medieval tech to mechas, nuclear power, bionics/androids, cloning/gene-splicing, warp speed...), then more than three thousand years of small steps.
Its a bit odd.
Taken care with the new timeline.

Does Alpha Nei's group become a faction all the years after? Maybe across the Space Sailors?
Hmm, good idea, added!

Where does the Federation of Technotopia come from? Colonists of a planet that got a meaningful amount of influence?
They just appear as a faction right now without really saying where they come from in all of this.
Developed as well on the expanded timeline.

Quote
Whoa, could Technotopia be some Ghost in the Shell inspired D&D stuffs? That could be interesting :D
Oh dear yes. Though the entire population feeling against staying in a shell of flesh would be odd. Especially given the discrepancies in social classes with the poor not really being able to keep upgrading, leading to no poor caste since they all end up as semi-sentient servants. Bionics would probably be the solution, with the most part of the population using upgrades of some kind. Cyber brain, a better arm, better eyes... a fully android body... Having many AI-guided robots and androids would be a given considering the technological specialties of the faction. It would also give the possibility of groups with different mentalities. Like people in the ghettos that are mostly natural but have no means of leaving (or no desire to) and despise the unnatural replacement of body parts for mechanical/bionic 'upgrades'. Along with possible groups of beings so disconnected with material things that they mostly live in the 'net'.
Oh, that's definetely the kind of thing I wanted, definetely gonna add it, thanks! :D

Minor pedantry: referring to something as 'the government' when it's got no centralisation or governing body at all also seems inaccurate.

It's got even less oversight than the Holy Roman Empire did towards the end. O_o
Arrogance goes a long way as far as titles go around. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 14, 2014, 06:44:21 PM
Apple references? I am disappointed. :p

Though I am now inclined to investigate how God//Einst Queen could be worked. Still think Planetar would work better. Drone buffing! Just thought of it because of the machine gods. XD
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 16, 2014, 12:49:57 PM
Added a couple of worlds and elves and orcs fluff, plus racial alternate class features in the races thread.

If people like this approach, I intend to repeat the process with dwarves and halflings at least.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 16, 2014, 12:55:57 PM
I am bad at balance concerns, but I am amused that elven super pilots apparently end up piloting a tree. Also, I am reminded of Tenchi Muyo for some reason.

Quote
At 18th level, if the battleship is destroyed, the ship ca the wrecks

That needs to be rewritten because it looks like a few words got removed.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 16, 2014, 02:06:47 PM
Steal from all sources Pure coincidence I'm sure.

Also cleaned up that bit.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on July 16, 2014, 08:00:49 PM
I like the possibility of the elven planet awakening to sentience.

The new stuff looks really good so far. Can't find anything to complain about yet :)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Michael Lightning on August 18, 2014, 09:35:27 PM
So, Ranieh's putting together a game for this, and we'd like to have a Captain, if at all possible. The thread is here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=14425.new#new
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 18, 2014, 09:39:23 PM
We would? I didn't know about this. D:
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Michael Lightning on August 19, 2014, 08:58:30 AM
So, I have a question about one of the feats; I Am Invincible allows you to make an item out of pure metal, including adding its properties to one of the built-in weapons. One of the properties is 'cannot be enchanted or otherwise improved'. Does that mean the Super Robot upgrades don't work with it, or do they?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 19, 2014, 09:15:59 AM
You're applying its properties to the already-upgraded weapon, rather than making it out of pure metal and then upgrading it. Nothing there that should stop it from, say, going on top of a buffed Main Weapon.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Michael Lightning on August 19, 2014, 09:45:37 AM
That's what I was wanting to clear up.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 21, 2014, 12:30:44 PM
I think there's an increasing mecha storage problem with Battleships. Once you have non-Real Robots, size demands are liable to get bigger and bigger-huge Super Robots, Drones--but a Battleship is capped at 1 Colossal-sized mecha. The best solution other than 'nerf yourself' is currently 'leave mecha behind (I Am Invincible) and use Burning Justice' and 'devour drones, remake drones constantly, hope to not be attacked (Einst)'.

The main issue is that there's no facility for bringing other things along with the warp travel options and teleport at any point. (As a side note, there's no practical option for interplanetary travel thus presented, when the setting requires interstellar--12,000 miles for max teleport range is nothing)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 21, 2014, 12:57:47 PM
I think there's an increasing mecha storage problem with Battleships. Once you have non-Real Robots, size demands are liable to get bigger and bigger-huge Super Robots, Drones--but a Battleship is capped at 1 Colossal-sized mecha. The best solution other than 'nerf yourself' is currently 'leave mecha behind (I Am Invincible) and use Burning Justice' and 'devour drones, remake drones constantly, hope to not be attacked (Einst)'.
Or you can go Ship Captain/Super Robot to further increase your battleship's size. The very multiclass rules for that are based on super humongous Macross after all. :p

The main issue is that there's no facility for bringing other things along with the warp travel options and teleport at any point. (As a side note, there's no practical option for interplanetary travel thus presented, when the setting requires interstellar--12,000 miles for max teleport range is nothing)
Good points, allowed for the basic option of warp speed to pimp your movement speed up to 10 000 times, which should cover interplanetary travel nicely enough, and then boosted the teleport to 5 000 000 000 000 mu per pilot level, which should cover interstellar travel, even if you still need to make multiple jumps. Sounds good, or did I royally screw the math again?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 21, 2014, 01:07:49 PM
I think there's an increasing mecha storage problem with Battleships. Once you have non-Real Robots, size demands are liable to get bigger and bigger-huge Super Robots, Drones--but a Battleship is capped at 1 Colossal-sized mecha. The best solution other than 'nerf yourself' is currently 'leave mecha behind (I Am Invincible) and use Burning Justice' and 'devour drones, remake drones constantly, hope to not be attacked (Einst)'.
Or you can go Ship Captain/Super Robot to further increase your battleship's size. The very multiclass rules for that are based on super humongous Macross after all. :p

I keep thinking about Gunbuster and the Exelion. Sure, it only had one Gunbuster, which fits neatly into the 'Colossal' bracket, but it had vast amounts of smaller stuff. :P

It also seems weird to require multiclassing to get the one size increase. It's not something that can really start being an issue until level 12 or so (when Super Robots can hit Gargantuan and take up half the space on their own, minimum), so perhaps Battleships could get their cap raised by one size? Fluffwise, ships being expanded to cope with bigger robots make sense. :lmao

Quote
The main issue is that there's no facility for bringing other things along with the warp travel options and teleport at any point. (As a side note, there's no practical option for interplanetary travel thus presented, when the setting requires interstellar--12,000 miles for max teleport range is nothing)
Good points, allowed for the basic option of warp speed to pimp your movement speed up to 10 000 times, which should cover interplanetary travel nicely enough, and then boosted the teleport to 5 000 000 000 000 mu per pilot level, which should cover interstellar travel, even if you still need to make multiple jumps. Sounds good, or did I royally screw the math again?

2 weeks at lowish levels to get from Earth to Mars at their nearest? Hm, should fit. Not like this is hard science where we need to hit relativistic speeds.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 21, 2014, 01:26:15 PM
Did you take in account that the ship's speed scales up with ship captain level and you can equip speed-boosting acessories?

Anyway, added a feat for further size increases for ship captain, that also brings some extra arsenal space.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 21, 2014, 01:33:01 PM
Correction, about a week at level 6 with no speed-boosting arsenal upgrades. I was working off of 30 MU.

So two months from Earth to the far side of its orbit to run into Mars. Not bad going, all things considered.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on August 21, 2014, 08:17:53 PM
I think there's an increasing mecha storage problem with Battleships. Once you have non-Real Robots, size demands are liable to get bigger and bigger-huge Super Robots, Drones--but a Battleship is capped at 1 Colossal-sized mecha. The best solution other than 'nerf yourself' is currently 'leave mecha behind (I Am Invincible) and use Burning Justice' and 'devour drones, remake drones constantly, hope to not be attacked (Einst)'.
Or you can go Ship Captain/Super Robot to further increase your battleship's size. The very multiclass rules for that are based on super humongous Macross after all. :p

I keep thinking about Gunbuster and the Exelion. Sure, it only had one Gunbuster, which fits neatly into the 'Colossal' bracket, but it had vast amounts of smaller stuff. :P

I don't see where the problem was?
Cause just cause a Battleship got big enough to be able to finally store 1 Colossal Mecha doesn't mean it can't store anything else but that 1 Mecha?
Or am I misunderstanding something?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 21, 2014, 08:27:02 PM
I think there's an increasing mecha storage problem with Battleships. Once you have non-Real Robots, size demands are liable to get bigger and bigger-huge Super Robots, Drones--but a Battleship is capped at 1 Colossal-sized mecha. The best solution other than 'nerf yourself' is currently 'leave mecha behind (I Am Invincible) and use Burning Justice' and 'devour drones, remake drones constantly, hope to not be attacked (Einst)'.
Or you can go Ship Captain/Super Robot to further increase your battleship's size. The very multiclass rules for that are based on super humongous Macross after all. :p

I keep thinking about Gunbuster and the Exelion. Sure, it only had one Gunbuster, which fits neatly into the 'Colossal' bracket, but it had vast amounts of smaller stuff. :P

I don't see where the problem was?
Cause just cause a Battleship got big enough to be able to finally store 1 Colossal Mecha doesn't mean it can't store anything else but that 1 Mecha?
Or am I misunderstanding something?

It can store 1 mecha of its size category.

What the Exelion had is 1 colossal mecha*, and a whole ton of stuff. Fighters, things that would register as Diminutive or Tiny on an MU scale, etc (and in the sixth OVA, and even bigger ship was prepared).

*Two Gargantuan spaceships/combining mecha.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on August 21, 2014, 09:06:32 PM

It can store 1 mecha of its size category.

Plus a number of mecha of the next size category down.
Plus more stuff of the 3rd size down.
Plus even more stuff of the 4th size down.
And so on and so forth.

Which is where my confusion comes from on what you are saying.
Cause what I am reading is you saying "If I have a Colossal Ship, I can put 1 Colossal Mecha inside that ship, and nothing else."
Am I wrong?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 21, 2014, 09:13:05 PM

It can store 1 mecha of its size category.

Plus a number of mecha of the next size category down.
Plus more stuff of the 3rd size down.
Plus even more stuff of the 4th size down.
And so on and so forth.

Which is where my confusion comes from on what you are saying.
Cause what I am reading is you saying "If I have a Colossal Ship, I can put 1 Colossal Mecha inside that ship, and nothing else."
Am I wrong?

But that's the case.

A 'Colossal' ship has a 'Colossal' storage space.

Or space for two Gargantuan entities.

So if you have a Colossal ship and a Gargantuan Super Robot, you have space for two huge mecha, or four large, or eight medium, or 16 small; and so on. But you can't fit a Colossal, and you can't fit eight medium and a single large.

You basically have a space of 256.

Colossal = 256.
Gargantuan = 128
Huge = 64
Large = 32
Medium = 16
Small = 8
Tiny = 4
Diminutive = 2
Fine = 1

You can fit 128 human-sized mecha in your hangar, but a single colossal. Doesn't stack up with the available area, but D&D is concerned with area a thing takes to stand, not volume.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on August 21, 2014, 09:15:18 PM
Oh? I was pretty sure it was "And" and not "Or" when it came to the hanger space of a Ship.

At the least, I was absolutely certain this had come up in discussion before and it'd been declared as such........
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 21, 2014, 09:18:47 PM
Quote
Mecha Transport: A battleship can load and carry one mecha of its own size, two mechas of one size category smaller, four mechas of two size categories smaller, and so on. Entering or exiting a battleship is a move action on the part of the mecha. The battleship can prevent  'aunfriendlies from entering.

I don't see any 'and' implied.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on August 21, 2014, 09:21:20 PM
Quote
Mecha Transport: A battleship can load and carry one mecha of its own size, two mechas of one size category smaller, four mechas of two size categories smaller, and so on. Entering or exiting a battleship is a move action on the part of the mecha. The battleship can prevent  'aunfriendlies from entering.

I don't see any 'and' implied.

Bolded it.
Commas are also not "or" in meaning or use. The use of them in that sentence has them being used to separate a list, not define a set of choices.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 21, 2014, 09:25:57 PM
Quote
Mecha Transport: A battleship can load and carry one mecha of its own size, two mechas of one size category smaller, four mechas of two size categories smaller, and so on. Entering or exiting a battleship is a move action on the part of the mecha. The battleship can prevent  'aunfriendlies from entering.

I don't see any 'and' implied.

Bolded it.
Commas are also not "or" in meaning or use. The use of them in that sentence has them being used to separate a list, not define a set of choices.

'eight mecha of three sizes smaller, sixteen of four sizes smaller, thirty-two of five sizes smaller sixty-four of six sizes smaller, one hundred and twenty eight of seven sizes smaller, and two hundred and fifty six of eight sizes smaller'.

Given that I don't believe Os is a native English speaker, I've assumed it's an oversight lacking an 'Or'.

Rather than 'a colossal battleship can contain only one colossal mecha, but it can fit the equivalent of seven more, if they're of smaller sizes'.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on August 21, 2014, 09:29:00 PM
I could just be cheesy and say that Colossal stuff can, within the rules, squeeze into a space one size smaller than them and thus you can now have 2 colossal mechas on 1 colossal ship :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Michael Lightning on August 21, 2014, 09:31:07 PM
So, I see my slight remark in the game interest thread has done this...... but eh. I have a bit of a cross-question with Pure Crafting. It says that while using the items, you can't use SLA/Spells, etc. or triggered items like wands and the like. Does that mean that passive magic items (like the stat boost items) still work?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 21, 2014, 09:33:56 PM
Yup. Unless you take Purity (the Saint option), magic still affects you.

You can't activate it, but you ain't immune.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Michael Lightning on August 21, 2014, 09:35:05 PM
Yup. Unless you take Purity (the Saint option), magic still affects you.

You can't activate it, but you ain't immune.
Good. I wanted to grab some magic items that will scale into my mech.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Michael Lightning on August 21, 2014, 09:56:02 PM
If the mech is sentient and uses my stats, does that mean that my CON bonus would give it extra HP?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 22, 2014, 05:09:08 AM
It's as RD said for mecha storage, if anyone has a better wording for it feel free to post it and I'll edit it in.

If the mech is sentient and uses my stats, does that mean that my CON bonus would give it extra HP?
That's kinda hard to happen since Con bonus applies to HD and mecha have none of it.

I could just be cheesy and say that Colossal stuff can, within the rules, squeeze into a space one size smaller than them and thus you can now have 2 colossal mechas on 1 colossal ship :p
Funny, but the interior of a ship isn't an empty space to allow to use the squeeze rules.

I guess you could have one colossal mecha inside and another riding on top, but that one would be left behind when using warp speed. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 22, 2014, 10:11:51 AM
Mecha Transport: A battleship can load and carry one mecha of its own size, or two mechas of one size category smaller, or four mechas of two size categories smaller, and so on. Entering or exiting a battleship is a move action on the part of the mecha. The battleship can prevent  'aunfriendlies from entering.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 22, 2014, 04:20:03 PM
Quote
Nature's Oath: At 15th level 1/day, if you would die or your mecha be destroyed while in a location with natural vegetation, you can have trees and vines grow to repair your body and machine. You and your mecha recover all HP and remove all non-instantaneous ill effects from themselves, and can keep acting normally while you remain within 10 miles of the location that brought you back to life. If you go further away, or all the vegetation inside the radius is destroyed, you die.

This replaces the bonus feat a Super Pilot usually gains at 15th level.

I think something is missing to allow you to move more than 10 miles from this place, ever, without dying and making it questionably useful as a replacement feature (sure, I can keep fighting for the one battle... in the right environment, and if we have to move on I drop dead?)

Also rewording, because it currently kills you if you move too far away and your mecha was the one broken.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on August 23, 2014, 02:12:58 PM
A detail I thought I'd point out, in case it wasn't intentional: If a super robot takes a 1 level dip in Ship Captain, they can transform into a humanoid form of huge size, basically getting two Growth upgrades that stacks with those they might want every 4 super pilot levels.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 23, 2014, 02:16:29 PM
There needs to be some way to stop that (and they could freely be a Colossal mecha, not simply 'huge'), but restricting multiclasses to picking Growth would mean multiclassing the other way is shooting yourself in the foot. Hm.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on August 23, 2014, 02:54:43 PM
The colossal humanoid would probably get the same restriction in that it doesn't have any mechanical advantage past just being bigger, so you'd mechanically still count as huge-sized.
It could work just as it does for its speed. The transformation is into a normal sized super robot without any size advantage that can get size increases normally. You keep track of the sizes of the battleship form and humanoid form separately. It would probably benefit from Humongous Ship but, since it requires a feat instead of a few upgrade points and the 9 levels in SC limits the maximum growth upgrades that can be taken anyway, that wouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 23, 2014, 03:14:33 PM
Size means reach.

I'm not a fan of 'colossal ship becomes a medium robot'. Doesn't make sense, and if the inspiration is Macross...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on August 23, 2014, 03:27:35 PM
Quote
A captain may choose to start with a bigger battleship up to colossal size, but this won't grant any mechanical benefit besides being able to carry more mechas, filling a bigger space and bigger size penalty to AC and attack rolls.
Doesn't include reach.

Well, its a super robot battleship so I guess that kind of spectacular thing could happen. It makes sense to me. Probably makes as much sense as a bunch of other super robot stuff. Could be a special ship upgrade that makes your humanoid form match the size of the ship with a bigger upgrade cost since it gives more than one size increase. Or even make it so that the humanoid's size past medium counts as medium the same way a ship counts at start as huge-sized.
Or sort of the option to keep 'hem separate, Gurren-Lagann style. The battleship form splitting off the robot with a Real/Ship Captain multiclass-like system.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 23, 2014, 03:56:17 PM
I think it would be better if the resultant size stems from the class balance. Kind of weird from a mechanical perspective, but it means primary captains fit the 'transform the whole thing' ideal.

At least making Growth specify sizes per upgrade, now there's another way to make ships get bigger, would fix the ability to exploit the one level to obscene sizes.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 23, 2014, 03:58:14 PM
You do realize that being a super/captain multiclass means you end with the Cumbersome penalty (read:no immediate actions) in either form that makes adjacent enemies count you as flatfooted and also automatically confirm their crits, right?

So yes, pretty big robot for relatively cheap, but if enemies get close they're gonna hurt you a lot as they aim at your vulnerable points for critical damage.

Anyway added options for both multiclass super/captain and super size upgrades+transform that allow them to have different sizes because magic SUPER SCIENCE!

Also, edited in RD's transport version, thanks!

Quote
Nature's Oath: At 15th level 1/day, if you would die or your mecha be destroyed while in a location with natural vegetation, you can have trees and vines grow to repair your body and machine. You and your mecha recover all HP and remove all non-instantaneous ill effects from themselves, and can keep acting normally while you remain within 10 miles of the location that brought you back to life. If you go further away, or all the vegetation inside the radius is destroyed, you die.

This replaces the bonus feat a Super Pilot usually gains at 15th level.

I think something is missing to allow you to move more than 10 miles from this place, ever, without dying and making it questionably useful as a replacement feature (sure, I can keep fighting for the one battle... in the right environment, and if we have to move on I drop dead?)
Very well, added option of ending the oath.

Also rewording, because it currently kills you if you move too far away and your mecha was the one broken.
That's not a bug, it's a feature of being a tree-hugging elf. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 23, 2014, 04:05:13 PM
I sure as hell would never want to use a class feature that loses me a level, and play time, in exchange for taking part in a fight I survived.

Also: a Super 19, Captain 1 can never use any Counters? I really hope Ships Full of Hope has none, too.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 23, 2014, 04:13:43 PM
I sure as hell would never want to use a class feature that loses me a level, and play time, in exchange for taking part in a fight I survived.
Hmm, right now 1 minute worth of emo speech will remove the oath, it's not that much time and definitely not a level. :tongue

Also: a Super 19, Captain 1 can never use any Counters? I really hope Ships Full of Hope has none, too.
You can as long as your enemy isn't adjacent (that's what makes cumbersome turn the ship flatfooted). Like, using ranged weapons from afar. Gives a reason for flying in close for point-blank blasts.  Also "This Battle Isn't over Yet" is a counter that can be used only  when an ally gets hurt.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Michael Lightning on August 23, 2014, 09:10:17 PM
So, you have rules for heavy melee weapons, but I haven't seen any weapons with that tag. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Clanjos on August 24, 2014, 12:41:42 PM
Regarding the arcane pilot: do familiars selected in place of Arcane Feat get their own pod?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 25, 2014, 10:00:37 AM
Yes.

So, you have rules for heavy melee weapons, but I haven't seen any weapons with that tag. Am I missing something?

No. Just planning for the future.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Michael Lightning on August 25, 2014, 06:56:31 PM
So, a question about the Iron Charge stance in Into the Danger Zone: How long does the AC/Save bonus last? Until the start of next turn? Best bonus until stance is removed? I'm curious.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on August 25, 2014, 07:59:11 PM
So, a question about the Iron Charge stance in Into the Danger Zone: How long does the AC/Save bonus last? Until the start of next turn? Best bonus until stance is removed? I'm curious.

Currently in game, I've been using it under the assumption that the bonuses reset at the beginning of your turn. Thus you have to keep moving to keep dodging. You can't dodge if you don't move :p

Made sense like that to me.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Michael Lightning on August 25, 2014, 08:02:36 PM
That's what I'd assume, but it might be something that would want to be cleared up. RAW and RAI can be 2 VERY different things.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on August 25, 2014, 08:20:24 PM
I would imagine most homebrew is intended to be RAI? No?

Unrelated but
@OSLECAMO

So Moon Vanguard gets Nanoarmor that can emulate a Real or Super Robot.
What happens if a Moon Vanguard multiclasses into Ship Captain?
Does my Super Robot Nanoarmor get to become a Super Battleship somehow?  :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 26, 2014, 04:01:42 PM
Quote
Primordial Pilot: The Einst Queen counts as a Pilot for meeting the prerequisites of feats, and her drones count as having the same Pilot level for any ability that cares about it. If she picks Funnel Control System,  instead of robots she unleashes a massive swarm of diminutive Einst drones from  her body, that follow the same game rules as funnels.

Sadly, Funnels demand spellcasting ability, so it's a rather unlikely option unless you just want one level of casting. Are they still supposed to still have that requirement, or was it an oversight?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 05, 2014, 05:55:15 PM
Clarified typo.
I would imagine most homebrew is intended to be RAI? No?

Unrelated but
@OSLECAMO

So Moon Vanguard gets Nanoarmor that can emulate a Real or Super Robot.
What happens if a Moon Vanguard multiclasses into Ship Captain?
Does my Super Robot Nanoarmor get to become a Super Battleship somehow?  :lmao
Moon Vanguard doesn't really interact with pilot classes. The nanoarmor is a separate entity from the mecha/ship, and it growing to that kind of size would kinda defeat the whole point of the class of skimpy power armor.

Quote
Primordial Pilot: The Einst Queen counts as a Pilot for meeting the prerequisites of feats, and her drones count as having the same Pilot level for any ability that cares about it. If she picks Funnel Control System,  instead of robots she unleashes a massive swarm of diminutive Einst drones from  her body, that follow the same game rules as funnels.

Sadly, Funnels demand spellcasting ability, so it's a rather unlikely option unless you just want one level of casting. Are they still supposed to still have that requirement, or was it an oversight?
Psionics is fine too. Grab that feat that grants one psionic power.

On the other hand, I guess I could add a spellcasting variant to the Einst Queen. How does bard progression instead of maneuvers or mutations sounds?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 05, 2014, 06:09:27 PM
I actually considered Hidden Talent and taking funnels until I realised that I couldn't grant it to my drones instead, because they aren't casters. :lmao

Bard Progression? But what spell list? Druid stuff? Bards?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on October 17, 2014, 04:03:16 PM
Few questions:

1- How does the Disarming weapon property works against Mechas? A mecha is expected to fight other mechas, so what's the point of disarming if their weapons are all built-in and undisarmable? Or does it make them unusable for a moment? I suppose Arsenal weapons could be disarmed but I don't think once disarmed you can just take them... unless perhaps one voluntarily keeps his arsenal points used lower to make some space for stolen arsenal weapons.

2-Engine Overload (Into the Danger Zone 1 Stance): Is it meant to be 1 extra energy per extra 5-ft. granted by this stance or indeed 1 extra point of energy per 5-ft. moved. Because that makes all your movement -before- you actually get to the extra movement granted by this stance require more energy.
Ie: You have a fly speed of 60 and move 65 mu with this stance. As written, it costs 26 energy to move 5-ft. further than you would had you only paid 12 energy for 60-mu.
If it was only extra energy for the extra movement, you'd pay 2energy per extra 5 mu, so 65-mu would cost 14, which makes more sense. This level 1 stance otherwise won't be used much since no mecha will have all that much energy to use it.

3-Battleships and Ammo: I don't see where it says we can refill ammunition. The Cartridge accessory in the arsenal points out you can get a new cartridge when you go to the place where you can change your arsenal but that doesn't cover ammo in general. Otherwise, a battleship has ammo limits, and can be change its own arsenal over time. If it picks cartridges, by visiting its own battleship, doesn't that mean the captain's battleship get infinite ammo? It would make more sense if it took some time, but definitely not the time it takes to change arsenal. Making ammo isn't that time consuming. Also, if it takes Veteran Mechanics, does it gain infinite ammo?

4-Relationship feat numbers: You'll be seeing more of those soon in-game, so I'd rather point out right away that I feel the numbers are a bit huge before I use them. Love gives a bonus to damage equal to HD up to x3. That is a -lot- of bonus damage just for being adjacent to your loved one when you attack, even for up to 3 feats.
Friendship and Rivalry might be alright. I think.

5- Battleship Cruising Speed: It takes a full-round action to initiate the process, and then movement begins on its next turn? Or is it supposed to take a full-round action like withdrawing or running, and include the movement?

6- Magic Zephyr Sword-Just kidding (Burning Justice 1 boost):
Quote
For every 3 pilot levels you have, you can summon a weapon of a Level higher, up to weapons lvl VII when you reach pilot level 18
Is it normal that there isn't a melee arsenal Lv5 weapon in the list? Otherwise there is nothing at that level to use the maneuver for.

7- Great Commander (Ships Full of Hope 3 Stance):
Quote
for every 3 Ship Captain levels
Being a maneuver, shouldn't it work out of pilot levels instead of levels in the class?
I mean, it already points out that "This doesn't do anything if you don't already have the leader feat." but it already doesn't do anything if you do don't have at least 3 levels in Ship Captain, which includes the Leader feat. It is very redundant. It would make sense if it worked out of pilot levels instead though, so perhaps that's what was intended.

8- Machinery Warrior Android: If it gets in One with the Machine mode with its mecha, is it supposed to heal from its own nanomachines plus those of its mecha? If so, at Self-Regenerating V they would pretty much heal all their HP at beginning of their every turn.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 17, 2014, 06:48:58 PM
I actually considered Hidden Talent and taking funnels until I realised that I couldn't grant it to my drones instead, because they aren't casters. :lmao

Bard Progression? But what spell list? Druid stuff? Bards?
Been thinking on that, and decided that the best would be making a custom list of spells like I did for the Arcane and Divine Pilots. Even if it takes more work on my part.

1- How does the Disarming weapon property works against Mechas? A mecha is expected to fight other mechas, so what's the point of disarming if their weapons are all built-in and undisarmable? Or does it make them unusable for a moment? I suppose Arsenal weapons could be disarmed but I don't think once disarmed you can just take them... unless perhaps one voluntarily keeps his arsenal points used lower to make some space for stolen arsenal weapons.
I guess I naver clarified that. Added something about that in the weapons section.

Quote
Mecha weapons can be disarmed, representing the weapon being ripped off its supports. Built-in weapons gain a +4 bonus against disarm attempts. A mecha who had a weapon disarmed can pick it up and perform improvised repairs to make it work again as a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity. Each weapon is specially adapted to each mecha, even generic arsenal ones, and thus it's impossible to pick up and use disarmed weapons from other mechas during combat.


2-Engine Overload (Into the Danger Zone 1 Stance): Is it meant to be 1 extra energy per extra 5-ft. granted by this stance or indeed 1 extra point of energy per 5-ft. moved. Because that makes all your movement -before- you actually get to the extra movement granted by this stance require more energy.
Ie: You have a fly speed of 60 and move 65 mu with this stance. As written, it costs 26 energy to move 5-ft. further than you would had you only paid 12 energy for 60-mu.
If it was only extra energy for the extra movement, you'd pay 2energy per extra 5 mu, so 65-mu would cost 14, which makes more sense. This level 1 stance otherwise won't be used much since no mecha will have all that much energy to use it.
The stance is called "Engine Overload", not "efficient energy use", so yeah the bigger energy cost. And yes it's meant for mechas that have the extra energy to burn.

3-Battleships and Ammo: I don't see where it says we can refill ammunition. The Cartridge accessory in the arsenal points out you can get a new cartridge when you go to the place where you can change your arsenal but that doesn't cover ammo in general. Otherwise, a battleship has ammo limits, and can be change its own arsenal over time. If it picks cartridges, by visiting its own battleship, doesn't that mean the captain's battleship get infinite ammo? It would make more sense if it took some time, but definitely not the time it takes to change arsenal. Making ammo isn't that time consuming. Also, if it takes Veteran Mechanics, does it gain infinite ammo?
-Added clauses about that in the arsenal section of the battleship.

4-Relationship feat numbers: You'll be seeing more of those soon in-game, so I'd rather point out right away that I feel the numbers are a bit huge before I use them. Love gives a bonus to damage equal to HD up to x3. That is a -lot- of bonus damage just for being adjacent to your loved one when you attack, even for up to 3 feats.
Friendship and Rivalry might be alright. I think.
Yeaaahh, I had already kinda noticed that (your first encounter? They were all lovers) :blush

Nerfed it to only work 1/round.

...I'm also now afraid that your character is in love with her special doll.

5- Battleship Cruising Speed: It takes a full-round action to initiate the process, and then movement begins on its next turn? Or is it supposed to take a full-round action like withdrawing or running, and include the movement?
The first fullround action doesn't include movement.

6- Magic Zephyr Sword-Just kidding (Burning Justice 1 boost):
Quote
For every 3 pilot levels you have, you can summon a weapon of a Level higher, up to weapons lvl VII when you reach pilot level 18
Is it normal that there isn't a melee arsenal Lv5 weapon in the list? Otherwise there is nothing at that level to use the maneuver for.
...Wait, it's melee only? It was supposed to be any weapon. Fixed. GETTER GATLING GUN!!!!!

7- Great Commander (Ships Full of Hope 3 Stance):
Quote
for every 3 Ship Captain levels
Being a maneuver, shouldn't it work out of pilot levels instead of levels in the class?
I mean, it already points out that "This doesn't do anything if you don't already have the leader feat." but it already doesn't do anything if you do don't have at least 3 levels in Ship Captain, which includes the Leader feat. It is very redundant. It would make sense if it worked out of pilot levels instead though, so perhaps that's what was intended.
Good point, changed to scaling to pilot level.

8- Machinery Warrior Android: If it gets in One with the Machine mode with its mecha, is it supposed to heal from its own nanomachines plus those of its mecha? If so, at Self-Regenerating V they would pretty much heal all their HP at beginning of their every turn.
Abilities with the same name don't stack unless noted otherwise. The nanomachines keyword is used for both, so it simply overlaps.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on October 19, 2014, 03:16:05 AM
Alrighty.

Quote
Yeaaahh, I had already kinda noticed that (your first encounter? They were all lovers)
Speaking of which. There seemed to be a lot of attacks involved. How many synchro attacks can there be per turn?
-ie1: Two pilots in a relationship attack same target on round 1, then both attack it again on round two. When pilot A attacks, synchro attack with pilot B. If pilot B attacks it as well, does it trigger another synchro with pilot A or only a single synchro that is triggered by either of them?
-ie 2: Pilot A and B are in a relationship and both used an area attack that hit a few targets on round 1. On round two, Pilot A uses another area attack that hits those they both got on round 1. Do they make a synchro attack against each one of those targets?
-ie 3: Pilot A, B and C all have relationships with eachother (say, Love between A and B, Devotion between A and C, and Rivalry between B and C). They each attack the same target on round 1. They all get adjacent to eachother and start to synchro attack. Do they all participate in a single (or more depending on the answer for ie1) synchro attack or is it triggered for each relationship (Love synchro, Devotion synchro, Rivalry synchro)?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 19, 2014, 06:12:24 AM
1-Pilot A and Pilot B can both trigger synchro attacks on the same round as long as they have enough ammo/energy remaining.
2-Sychro attacks can only be performed against a single target, but area effects and whatnot may allow you to hit others as collateral as part of that.
3-Only two partners may participate in a single synchro attack. They could chain together, in your example  B and A synchro, then A sychros with C, then C synchros with B.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Annforest on October 19, 2014, 06:26:50 AM
I see.
Just to be sure though; since in example 1 they both can trigger it, would example 3 result in:

1- All 3 pilots attack the same target on round 1. On round 2, A attacks the target and triggers a synchro with B or C, or is it triggering two separate synchro attacks, one with B followed by another with C? Since C (or B) attacked the target as part of the synchro, it triggers a synchro attack with B (or C) or again with A. And so on. Unless attacks from synchro attacks cannot trigger another synchro attack and must be triggered by a attack that uses the pilot's own actions, which leads to...
2-  All 3 pilots attack the same target on round 1. On round 2, A attacks the target and triggers a synchro with B. It then makes another attack and triggers another synchro with C. Then, B makes an attack of his own and triggers a synchro with A, then makes another attack and triggers a synchro with C. Finally, C makes two attacks of his own, triggering a synchro with A and then with B with the second attack.

Also... I like the soulmeld system. How does it work with your mecha system? From what I read, it doesn't seem like the big robots have an item slot they could use to channel the soulmelds.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 19, 2014, 09:25:59 PM
Quote
-ie 3: Pilot A, B and C all have relationships with eachother (say, Love between A and B, Devotion between A and C, and Rivalry between B and C). They each attack the same target on round 1. They all get adjacent to eachother and start to synchro attack. Do they all participate in a single (or more depending on the answer for ie1) synchro attack or is it triggered for each relationship (Love synchro, Devotion synchro, Rivalry synchro)

This example also sounds like a stunningly dysfunctional group of relationships.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on October 19, 2014, 09:49:38 PM
No its a love triangle.

A loves B. (Love feat)
A & C are childhood friends (Devotion feat)
B & C are rivals for A's love (Rivalry)

Always assuming A & C are opposite genders :D
Its a classical, stereotypical cliche~
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 19, 2014, 09:51:27 PM
No its a love triangle.

A loves B. (Love feat)
A & C are childhood friends (Devotion feat)
B & C are rivals for A's love (Rivalry)

Always assuming A & C are opposite genders :D
Its a classical, stereotypical cliche~

Why does the gender of participants matter? :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on October 19, 2014, 10:01:13 PM
Quote
This example also sounds like a stunningly dysfunctional group of relationships.
Quote
No its a love triangle.
That was kind of intended. :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on October 19, 2014, 10:03:23 PM
No its a love triangle.

A loves B. (Love feat)
A & C are childhood friends (Devotion feat)
B & C are rivals for A's love (Rivalry)

Always assuming A & C are opposite genders :D
Its a classical, stereotypical cliche~

Why does the gender of participants matter? :P

Because otherwise it's not a cliche. Otherwise, it's a studio trying to be edgy and different and pretending to do something unique when it's actually not but advertising it as if it was  :eh
Basically, what I said is a cliche, and when it doesn't matter, it's a marketing ploy  :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 20, 2014, 05:24:22 AM
1- All 3 pilots attack the same target on round 1. On round 2, A attacks the target and triggers a synchro with B or C, or is it triggering two separate synchro attacks, one with B followed by another with C? Since C (or B) attacked the target as part of the synchro, it triggers a synchro attack with B (or C) or again with A. And so on. Unless attacks from synchro attacks cannot trigger another synchro attack and must be triggered by a attack that uses the pilot's own actions, which leads to...
Yes, of course they can't trigger new attacks, otherwise you would get an infinite loop with just two pilots (A starts, B synchros, then A synchros, and so on). Clarified it.

2-  All 3 pilots attack the same target on round 1. On round 2, A attacks the target and triggers a synchro with B. It then makes another attack and triggers another synchro with C. Then, B makes an attack of his own and triggers a synchro with A, then makes another attack and triggers a synchro with C. Finally, C makes two attacks of his own, triggering a synchro with A and then with B with the second attack.
If A/B/C can make two separate attacks on their own per turn, yes, they can trigger two synchros. Remember that the action used for the attack is the same granted to the synchronized pilots.

Also... I like the soulmeld system. How does it work with your mecha system? From what I read, it doesn't seem like the big robots have an item slot they could use to channel the soulmelds.
Pilot soulmelds, benefits are granted to the mecha.

No its a love triangle.

A loves B. (Love feat)
A & C are childhood friends (Devotion feat)
B & C are rivals for A's love (Rivalry)

Always assuming A & C are opposite genders :D
Its a classical, stereotypical cliche~

Why does the gender of participants matter? :P

Because otherwise it's not a cliche. Otherwise, it's a studio trying to be edgy and different and pretending to do something unique when it's actually not but advertising it as if it was  :eh
Basically, what I said is a cliche, and when it doesn't matter, it's a marketing ploy  :P
CCS disagrees with you. :p
...
Oh, wait, you were talking about mecha series.
...
(click to show/hide)
Totally happened on the official series.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 19, 2014, 05:37:39 AM
I'm considering making or helping out with the creation of a Mecha Engineer class.

Its design would be centered like the Einst Queen on two 'modes'; Engineer with maneuvers and engineer with class abilities.

The premise is that I've seen many instances where the pilot of a mecha actually is a good for nothing that can't really do much when it isn't piloting the mecha, and that is mostly because the mecha is doing all the work.
Explanation: The pilot sucks, but whoever made the mecha is a damn genius.

The mecha engineer would have low BaB progression, high Will save, 4+int skill points and skill ranks mostly in craft and knowledge skills. I would have it get 8+int skill points but instead I'll have it gain 4 skill points that are only possessed by mecha itself and solely in Str or Dex-based skills and perhaps perception skills. I would also have it get a high BaB progression but only the mecha itself is considered to have it. The mecha would also work has if it had a high Reflex save progression. So out of the mecha the engineer would be pretty wimpy.

What I am aiming for, however, is for the engineer and the mecha to be completely separate stat wise.
The mecha does not benefit from any self buffing class abilities, from the engineer's feats, skill points (beside the 4/level mentioned) or whatever. The engineer designs it to have its own stats, set of feats and so on and if the engineer pilots it, the mecha doesn't benefit from the engineer's stats in any way.
...Which is why the engineer usually doesn't pilot the mecha and supports the party instead (kind of like a sentient super robot, but without copycat stats). The one piloting his machine would usually be some random angsty kid with emotional problems (level 1 commoner or any other ally willing to pilot it) that was "chosen" to pilot it for a reason or another. Odds are the first crit takes out the kid, though. No matter. There are plenty of kids out there dying to be "chosen" by fate or whatever. It could have a similar Eisnt Queen system in which the engineer can build a few mechas (if it has the time and resources to do it) that are piloted by more stupid kids.
Going that way would give the Eisnt Queen a non-alien-apocalypse counterpart, I suppose, but I'm not sure about threading that route.

If the engineer gets a cohort, it could replace the wimpy kid or represent the kid growing a spine and actually becoming a competent pilot, in which case the mecha would use the cohort's stats instead of its own as usual while it pilots it. Or not and just make the pilot less vulnerable to being whipped out and maybe give it the possibility of using spirits.

Maneuver-based engineer would program some maneuvers that the mecha would know (not the engineer, though) and the engineer with class abilities would get special features for himself or for the mecha in the form of Breakthroughs (it would have its own).
The mecha would work like a real, super or multiclass robot, which would make multiclassing into Mecha Engineer rather simple for the purpose of determining what the mecha has access to.

It wouldn't get spirits and rely on progress points. It'd get about 7 feats throughout the 20 levels and the capstone that would maybe allow it once per hour to have a little more energy regen than usual for 1 minute. Like +1/10.


Only if you're cool with it though.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 19, 2014, 07:33:18 AM
On other news, expanded the real robots list (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7161.msg178254#msg178254) a bit. Also reduced the arsenal cost of many weapons, and an option of picking pairs of lower-level weapons for reduced cost while granting them the twin-linked property.

Only if you're cool with it though.
That depends widely on how good that independent mecha is when compared with the mechas given by the other classes when being piloted. And what the engineer can exactly do. And how much of a force multiplier the mecha engineer is for a group.

Because honestly right now the custom mecha alone seems to be plain superior. Basically works by itself, but gets its own customized maneuvers and feats and skills and then unique upgrades on top of that. And then the engineer seems like he'll have stuff of his own to do during combat. If you're gonna get two characters for the price of one, they need to be weaker, and if then they're also a lot more versatile, then that's still trouble.

Also if you're gonnna go with the borked "My enemy has a mecha? I don't care, I can directly attack the pilot inside. Oh, wait, I do care that my enemy has a mecha because I get to turn it into extra bonus for myself, while they still don't get any benefit from it against my attacks, they're all complete suckers for even trying to use a mecha against me.", then just forget it.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 19, 2014, 08:11:57 AM
Quote
Because honestly right now the custom mecha alone seems to be plain superior. Basically works by itself, but gets its own customized maneuvers and feats and skills and then unique upgrades on top of that. And then the engineer seems like he'll have stuff of his own to do during combat. If you're gonna get two characters for the price of one, they need to be weaker, and if then they're also a lot more versatile, then that's still trouble.
It shouldn't be that impressive. As far as two characters for the price of one goes, I aim for something between Einst drone and how good a Super Pilot's Sentient Imprinted mecha could be.
The super pilot's mecha is pretty similar, it "works by itself, but gets its own customized maneuvers and feats and skills and then unique upgrades on top of that". The difference is that unlike the super robot, the engineer doesn't have the maneuvers (unless it pilots the robot) and the stats of the robot are independent of the engineer's.
...Which technically should make it harder to abuse since the robot doesn't benefit from the PC's very high stats, self-buffing class abilities and so on. Kind of like a einst drone that is controlled and not piloted.
If the pilot forsake maneuvers, it gets other stuff that would be an equivalent.

The only thing I'm wondering is if the stuff it would get for not taking maneuvers should be available to a would-be pilot other than the engineer that wants to pilot it, since when someone pilots someone else's robot they have access to that robot's maneuvers on top of their own for some reason.

Quote
That depends widely on how good that independent mecha is when compared with the mechas given by the other classes when being piloted. And what the engineer can exactly do. And how much of a force multiplier the mecha engineer is for a group.
The engineer gets class abilities if it doesn't get maneuvers. Unless it pilots the mecha himself or buy magic gear for the kids, the mecha won't benefit much from equipment other than arsenal.
I guess power players will want to pilot their own mecha, which makes sense since there are instances of pilots being great engineers, or have some cohort or a fellow PC do it.
What the engineer does would be limited by its equipment, skills, feats and whatever it gets for multiclassing in something else if he goes the maneuvers path. If it takes class abilities instead, it should be about on par with what having divine spellcasting in mu-scale should offer to a group.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 19, 2014, 08:22:52 AM
If it takes class abilities instead, it should be about on par with what having divine spellcasting in mu-scale should offer to a group.

Danger Will Robinson!

A Divine Pilot only gets an heavily nerfed real robot for their troubles, while the engineer you speak of would get something close to a sentient super robot. That would definitely be crossing the power line.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 19, 2014, 08:35:36 AM
Yes, but the divine pilot gets Spirits on top of divine casting. The engineer would have its engineering and class abilities be about the equivalent of the divine casting by itself.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 19, 2014, 08:41:51 AM
Spirits are not equal to the gap between a good robot and a bad one.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 19, 2014, 09:13:21 AM
Not to mention, while the Divine Pilot needs to be inside her mecha to get her spells going mecha-scale and has bad skills, the engineer's mecha gets to go around with good combat stats, combat feats, better skills than the divine pilot, and maneuvers, which will probably be superior to spirits. While the engineer themselves are still throwing their spellcasting-equivalent support at the same time their custom mecha is beating the crap out of stuff.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 19, 2014, 09:19:37 AM
Quote
Spirits are not equal to the gap between a good robot and a bad one.
The mecha is already suffering from not benefiting from self buff class abilities and copying your stats. That in itself is already a big nerf.

Quote
...good combat stats, combat feats, better skills than the divine pilot, and maneuvers, which will probably be superior to spirits.
No. As I said, they get either the class abilities or the maneuvers. Not both.
The robot doesn't get both.

Either way, it should be fine. If it feels too strong it'll be adjusted. The maneuverless mecha + engineering support should be no greater than an infiltrator einst queen with drones under queen's will.

By the way, do you have a suggestion for the character to portray it? You're more familiar to those series than I am.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 19, 2014, 10:24:30 AM
Quote
Spirits are not equal to the gap between a good robot and a bad one.
The mecha is already suffering from not benefiting from self buff class abilities and copying your stats. That in itself is already a big nerf.
No, it isn't, since it just means the engineer can dump their physical stats and their mecha still rocks at physical combat.

Independent stats just means you can specialize each of your two-for-one characters for one thing.

Quote
...good combat stats, combat feats, better skills than the divine pilot, and maneuvers, which will probably be superior to spirits.
No. As I said, they get either the class abilities or the maneuvers. Not both.
The robot doesn't get both.
The robot still gets independent actions and their own feats, which can all be specialized for combat.

Either way, it should be fine. If it feels too strong it'll be adjusted. The maneuverless mecha + engineering support should be no greater than an infiltrator einst queen with drones under queen's will.
Thing is, the einst queen can't benefit other party members, so she's just a force multiplier for her own minions. That's a lot easier to balance.

Which is the only way I could see your idea working without being a nightmare to balance. The engineer customizes his own weaker mechas, and gets suckers to pilot them, or cheap AIs, or whatever, but he can't modify other player's mechas, only his creations, and the other players have no reason to want to pilot the engineer's creations because they're weaker than their own machines.


By the way, do you have a suggestion for the character to portray it? You're more familiar to those series than I am.
Funny that you mention that. Closest things I can remember are...

 Tasuku.
(http://i.imgur.com/rAUbrl0.jpg)
He wanted to be a pilot, but in the physical tests proved both a weakling and clumsy, so they put him on grunt mechanic duty instead. Then in a battle he took a mecha that nobody was using and saved the day.


And  Ryoto
(http://i.imgur.com/BexIFQR.png)
While Tasuku had a fighting spirit but sucked physically, Ryoto  was quite capable but just not much into the whole killing thingy, so he ended up becoming the in-field engineer that now and then pilots a mecha when things get desesperate enough.


Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 19, 2014, 10:43:38 AM
Quote
No, it isn't, since it just means the engineer can dump their physical stats and their mecha still rocks at physical combat.
Only if there isn't an actual competent pilot piloting it.
Which means that if a commoner is doing the piloting, a single critical hit will make the mecha pilotless.
If the engineer is piloting it, then its non-combat stuff won't be of much use since either they overrule the mecha's combat ability or it doesn't benefit from other class abilities. Which is a very significant minus considering you intend those mecha classes to mostly be used in gestalt.
If someone else pilots it, then whatever combat feats and skills are built into the mecha become meaningless as well.

Thanks for the suggestions!

I don't mind going for self-only boostage (even though some maneuvers in many disciplines can provide benefits to allies, or more like Ships Full of Hope), but it would seem awkward thematically.
The way I had planned for it to work is that the engineer would have to be within the mecha it works on without piloting it. Which makes it impossible for multi-mecha boosts. Only one at a time and to even begin work on someone else's machine he has to spend actions reaching it, getting inside and leaving it when he's done to attend to another.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 22, 2014, 03:35:25 AM
I see that your new class is actually a repaint job of your previously crazily OP class. Heck, you didn't even bother to properly replace the names in several instances! Arguably even more OP now because it now also gets cheap spammable minions. And the prototype gets extra HP and energy over a regular real robot before anything else. That you kept claiming "Trust me, totally balanced by the mecha engineer having bad Bab", and then the self-controling OP mecha gets full Bab anyway, well, that's the cherry on top.

I had a glimmer of hope for this. It was completely crushed. Not gonna bother visit that thread again for a year.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 22, 2014, 04:23:38 AM
Cheap spammable minions? :twitch It was intended to be nothing better than uncontrolled einst drones.

I did some maths and I don't see how it could get a clearly better HP/Energy than a normal real robot.

The low bab was never meant to balance it. It applies only when it isn't piloting the mecha to avoid multiple super warriors at a time, like the Einst Queen. The self(kid) controlled mecha is about as good as a the controlled einst drones and about as vulnerable to crits.

I think it is much weaker than you think and you're exagerating. If I made mistakes in my calculations I'm sure it can be quickly fixed.

You had invited me to make a Engineering system here and so I did. Obviously I took the revamped version I made for the other one and adjusted it since you wanted to have something that could be available to the other classes.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 22, 2014, 10:15:42 PM
I reviewed it again just to makes sure and I am pretty confident it is weaker in power than the Einst Queen and the Super Pilot. If anything those two classes should maybe be nerfed.

Its HP potential is weaker than a super pilot and, since unlike the other classes it doesn't get by default an ability that has the potential to fully heal the mecha (or all einst drones) every 2-3 rounds with a free action, it might in fact be proper to give it a higher max hp potential.

The ability to make a bunch of suits isn't that impressive since it is time consuming, can properly be done only at specific places unlike a einst queen and a similar result could be done better and more cheaply by just hiring mercenaries since they would actually follow orders and come with their own mecha.

And its kid-piloted mecha prototype isn't OP. I don't see how it could be better than 3+ controlled einst drones or a super pilot.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 22, 2014, 10:21:39 PM
From the above post I can only conclude you actually want Guts nerfed, not Super Pilot.

Or, from earlier stuff, Sentient rather than a blanket nerf. <_<
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 22, 2014, 11:17:25 PM
Not really the point. I'm only adding that things like free heals, such as uber regeneration, guts and trust, is (maybe) calculated in determining what HP is enough for a mecha. The engineer doesn't have free heals per round so even if the mecha's hp was a bit higher than the norm (and it really isn't), it might actually be alright.

I'm talking about the Queen Eisnt and Super Pilot package as a whole. But nerfing them and how that should be handled isn't the subject. Just feel that saying that the Mecha Engineer is crazy OP is really disturbing compared to whats offered over there. It can do some nice stuff, sure, but when it comes to raw power a Spirit user will be on top.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 18, 2014, 05:53:59 AM
Perhaps I've should've clarified something. In SRW everybody that matters get spirits. Supers, reals, your mom, alien monstruosities from outer space, ancien awaken gods, if they have an unique name, they have spirits. Only nameless faceless mooks meant to die in droves don't get spirits. Making a class other than "mecha cannon fodder" without spirits, and using that as an excuse to fit in other dubious stuff while claiming "It's balanced because it doesn't have spirits!", is not a valid character class option for here as far as I'm concerned. You balance spirits by giving spirits in some form to everybody.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on December 18, 2014, 06:17:07 PM
Ah, that's good to know!

Quote
"It's balanced because it doesn't have spirits!"
The class is balanced by much more than the lack of spirits. That detail only makes it a lot less easy to abuse.

But okay, that's even better. I can instead convert this engineering system into a Spirit based one by switching the acquisition of Integrated Technology with a Spirit feature, make feats that allow you to spend spirits to get the engineering options and make spirits with the [Mecha Engineer] tag. It'll make it easier for other pilots to dabble in engineering. Sounds good.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 19, 2014, 05:51:31 PM
Just for the love of Judecca don't make it tied to yet another custom resource...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on December 19, 2014, 06:45:09 PM
Like the Super Pilot's upgrades or the einst queen's nutrients? Didn't plan to.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 19, 2014, 07:02:15 PM
Yours tend to get overcomplicated.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on December 22, 2014, 06:53:10 PM
There's a few Spirits I think could perhaps get implemented.
Not sure if Morale should be a thing since you already replaced it for static values for a few feats so I think I'll just translate it for now as a bonus to attack, damage, DR and move speed.
I'm using an average of their costs in one of the games though it often feels too high for what it grants. They could be something along the lines of:

Surveillance (1) : You scout an target that you haven't attacked or been attacked by for the past minute. You learn its statistics.

Charge (30) : One ally in sight gains a +2 bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, DR and a +5-mu bonus to its speeds.

Resupply (48 or 50) : You, along with one ally in sight, recover all your energy and all your weapon ammo.

Vigor (50) : One ally in sight gains a +6 bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, DR and a +30-mu bonus to its speeds.

Rally (65) : All adjacent units get a +2 bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, DR and a +5-mu bonus to their speeds.

Hope (70) : You and one ally that you can see recover 50 spirit points.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 22, 2014, 07:19:04 PM
Surveillance Scan is one of those effects that's really weak in SRW, but would be pure gold in a D&D game. The main reason being that in SRW you automatically learn all of the enemy statistics after a single round of combat against them. However in D&D that kind of effect demands multiple Knowledge checks and learning the exact statistics is pretty much impossible by default.

Charge seems good, although I can't remember it from any particular SRW game.

Ressupply would be probably be strong enough if it affected a single target, even if it costs 50 SP. Judecca knows how much I love it late game to keep the high-energy ultimate attacks going. And from what I've seen so far in our campaign, energy is indeed the main limiter of many powerful abilities, so ways to easily recharge them like that should be limited.

Vigor is over 3x as good as charge for less than double the cost? Why would anyone take charge then? Oh, wait, I think I recognize them now, they're the morale-boosting spirits. Kinda plain implementation from your side, but I guess they fill a niche that was empty. Needs more Excellen either way.

Taunt (40): Target enemy in sight takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls, damage rolls, DR and a -5 mu penalty to speed.


Hope plains allows for a loophole if two players take it. One guy spends 70 sp, recovers 50 and another guy recovers 50. Net loss 20 SP for yourself, but then the other guy uses this too, and you gain 30 SP while the other guy still has 20 leftover from where he began as well.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on December 22, 2014, 08:06:29 PM
I found them in Super Robot Wars Original Generation. Maybe I should scout other games for other potential spirits.

For Surveillance/Scan, that makes a lot of sense and explains well its low SP cost. It doesn't translate into Dnd at all since you can get knowledge results off seeing enemies without having to fight them anyway.

For Resupply, I'd compare with hit points. Regeneration of hp vs reactors for energy are at equal strength, though reactor is more available. Guts is 30 SP and Faith is 40 SP. Also, you don't die from having zero energy but you do if your hp drops to zero so hp so the value of energy vs hp feels difficult to assess.
I agree that it is a good limiter for powerful abilities but usually the greatest limiter of power is action-economy.
Zeal is 70 SP for a lot of extra power, so how much would an energy equivalent of Guts/Faith be?

Charge/Vigor Morale spirits: Yep. As I mentioned you already replaced Morale for some feats so I'm not sure about bringing a Morale system over this without the feats having to be done over.

Good one for Taunt/Exhaust!

I was also considering adding Mercy (10), which leaves an enemy close to death when it should die. For Dnd though perhaps it would translate better to dealing nonlethal damage or otherwise leaving a mecha disabled but not destroyed.

Also considering:
Direct Attack (30) : Your next attack, if it hits, passes through
whatever defenses the opponent has, including Support Defenses and
any sort of barrier. It hits the enemy directly.

As for Hope, that's exactly what it did in the game. Was that spirit regeneration loop a thing or was it just not worth it considering who had access to it?
I though I'd just reduce the cost to 20 since you the net loss was 20 but I figured that the mechanics requiring 70 SP to even do it was meant to force you to keep a high spirit count to be able to do it along with preventing you to do it too early. Otherwise putting a cooldown of 5 minutes (time it usually takes to recover spirits anyway) or less per use per target would prevent the loop. That or diminishing returns each use.
After hearing two great speeches about friendship and believing in yourself or whatever within the same episode/fight your spirits aren't as lifted after all.

Otherwise I'm also thinking that perhaps more spirits should progress by pilot level, like Trust and Refresh. Especially those giving static bonuses.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 22, 2014, 08:48:28 PM
For Resupply, I'd compare with hit points. Regeneration of hp vs reactors for energy are at equal strength, though reactor is more available. Guts is 30 SP and Faith is 40 SP. Also, you don't die from having zero energy but you do if your hp drops to zero so hp so the value of energy vs hp feels difficult to assess.
I agree that it is a good limiter for powerful abilities but usually the greatest limiter of power is action-economy.
Zeal is 70 SP for a lot of extra power, so how much would an energy equivalent of Guts/Faith be?
Thing is that you want your energy-recovering spirit to restore two mechas's supply. That's not how it worked on the game, not how the other spirits here work, and just restoring energy would be good.

Also trivia, I had considered making it myself when making the first spirit list, but then decided it would be a bit silly somehow willing somebody else's weapon to have more bullets, but after watching knights of Sidonia I guess I can go with "improvise something else as ammo".

Charge/Vigor Morale spirits: Yep. As I mentioned you already replaced Morale for some feats so I'm not sure about bringing a Morale system over this without the feats having to be done over.
Yeah, between mechas and spirits I believed there were already more than enough subsystems for this.

Good one for Taunt/Exhaust!
There's a reason why I have this avatar, you know? :p

I was also considering adding Mercy (10), which leaves an enemy close to death when it should die. For Dnd though perhaps it would translate better to dealing nonlethal damage or otherwise leaving a mecha disabled but not destroyed.
Fine,  go ahead and make your defeat without destruction spirit.

More trivia, Mercy in the SRW games is more of a situational ability since there's at least always one mission where you need to reduce your target's HP to critical without killing them (usually because they have nukes, or are nukes, and killing them would mean everybody died).

Also considering:
Direct Attack (30) : Your next attack, if it hits, passes through
whatever defenses the opponent has, including Support Defenses and
any sort of barrier. It hits the enemy directly.
Would probably work better if you specified more, like "ignores defensive abilities with Barrier/Shield/Whatever on its name."

As for Hope, that's exactly what it did in the game. Was that spirit regeneration loop a thing or was it just not worth it considering who had access to it?
O'rrly?  Lefina has something to say about that. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=88AlHuMhS0A#t=623) Hope only recovered one ally's worth of SP. There's no two-target spirits in any SWR as far as I'm aware.

There was a possible loophole with another character that had Hope for just  50 SP, so if you got her the spirit-reduction "feat", she would become an infinite spirit battery. However you only unlocked said character very late in the game, thus you would need to grind multiple Newgame+ to get it done.

Otherwise I'm also thinking that perhaps more spirits should progress by pilot level, like Trust and Refresh. Especially those giving static bonuses.
Trust and Refresh are special because healing effects are rare. However pilots are getting boosts to movement and hit/AC and damage from plenty of other sources, so the spirits that boost those don't need it if you ask me.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on December 22, 2014, 09:10:10 PM
Quote
Thing is that you want your energy-recovering spirit to restore two mechas's supply. That's not how it worked on the game, not how the other spirits here work, and just restoring energy would be good.
From the Spirit list I read on that game, it works exactly as I listed it.
Looking at other lists, it seems to work for only one ally instead in most of the games. For how it works, I imagine its about the same way their spirit repairs that big hole through a mecha's chest.

Quote
Yeah, between mechas and spirits I believed there were already more than enough subsystems for this.
Ha ha. Oh yes. Well agreed! Though... you know me; It is never too complicated to be playable. Dnd already has hundreds of subsystems without even counting homebrews so as far as I'm concerned its a big whatever.

Quote
More trivia, Mercy in the SRW games is more of a situational ability since there's at least always one mission where you need to reduce your target's HP to critical without killing them (usually because they have nukes, or are nukes, and killing them would mean everybody died).
Ah, neat. I read it as more of a training spirit. Put an enemy to its knees so that weak ally of yours can be the one to finish it off and catch up with the big boys. In this campaign setting, this could actually be used to help promote mecha mooks.

Quote
Would probably work better if you specified more, like "ignores defensive abilities with Barrier/Shield/Whatever on its name."
Wouldn't that be too much too specify? Anything that reduces the damage received (DR, Defend, G-Wall and so on) being ignored seems clear enough. Unless that spirit was meant to only ignore actual barriers but not other sources such as the spirit that reduces damage.

Quote
O'rrly?  Lefina has something to say about that. Hope only recovered one ally's worth of SP. There's no two-target spirits in any SWR as far as I'm aware.
No problem then! As I said, I picked those from Super Robot Taisen: Original Generation. Your video is from the second one.
But hey, I'm cool with it.


Otherwise, I'd rather not make them myself since there is already a thread for Spirits. If you're okay with some of these propositions feel free to add them in and give them whichever pilot class you think would work best for them. They're just suggestions after all.


Edit: Oh. Found many lists and there are so many. There's even Twin spirits (though in some games some of those seem to be usable alone).
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Michael Lightning on December 25, 2014, 07:58:34 AM
With the twin spirits, those come in on the PS2 rerelease of the OG games as OGs or Original Generations and 2nd OGs on the PS3. The thing about them was that each pilot had 1 'twin' spirit that was only available to be used while they were in a twin unit with one another. All of them only worked while they were in a twin unit together, so using the spirit then separating the twining out doesn't work that way. I don't think that we need a subsystem like the Twin system in this when there's other things that can probably be put in first, especially since there's MP mechs and other abilities that are much more interesting from the Japan-only crossover games.

-edit- oh, and Assault is very rarely (if ever) a Twin command. It tends to be on some mid-speed mechs whose more powerful attacks aren't post-movement (looking at you, Kyosuke!)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 25, 2014, 05:51:45 PM
Yeah, the original OG 1 didn't have twin system either, the fancy PS remake was the one who added them along a bunch of quircky mechanics (and then was never released in english for the evulz).

Will see to adding more spirits over Christmas vacations, but twin whatever will remain in the backburner.

Also Assault already was one of the first spirits I converted here... Fighting Spirit is already there as Warrior Spirit, and Confusion as Disturbance. You can blame those last two in different translations.

EDIT: I had the idea of making the morale-boosting spirits providing better bonus if you have the morale feats.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on August 07, 2015, 06:54:36 AM
I just noticed that the Super Robot upgrades "Growth" and "Miniaturization" could be stacked together to gain all the bonuses of being super big but remaining normal or smaller sized. The net gain being your weapons keep their increased damage die due to size increases (as Mini says it doesn't reduce the die size for weapons), you take no size penalty to hit (or gain a bonus if go below medium), and you keep the Nat AC bonus from getting bigger while being smaller.

And neither one says you can't take the other if you already have one of the two.


How intended or not is this?
I could totally use this loophole right now  :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 07, 2015, 12:13:44 PM
Hmm, that's a bit too silly even for here if you ask me. Made the upgrades mutually exclusive.

Nerfed Hyperdimensional Storage so that it costs extra points each extra time you pick it, otherwise it's kinda of an auto-pick.

Also I was thinking of buffing Born to Fight so that it allows you to "overcharge" arsenal options so that they grant a bigger bonus for 1 round and are then lost, in a case by case basis So for example overcharging a Booster would grant a +100 mu bonus to speed for 1 round, but then you lose the booster until you can change arsenal options again. How does it sound?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on August 07, 2015, 08:33:52 PM
Could it simply reduce the overcharged arsenal's bonus to 0 temporarily instead?
I don't think I would ever use the option if it effectively removed the Arsenal item after one use for at least the rest of an ingame day.

Edit: Altho losing the booster just for the rest of the current encounter (or a set amount of time outside of combat if not in an encounter) after the single use I could get behind. And then being able continue to overcharge it further to continue the Boosting like I described just below until you break it.

I do however like this suddenly needlessly complicated idea about being able to Overcharge the same arsenal item for consecutive rounds, with each round after the 1st having an increasing percent chance of burning out the Arsenal item untiil you have a chance to change arsenal options (repairing/replacing the burnt out Arsenal option).

Also, sorta on the side and unrelated a bit, but Born to Fight's "Able to use maneuvers usually only accessible while piloting a mecha when outside the mecha 1/5 minutes" bit. Moon Vanguard counts as a Pilot class, and Nano Armor counts as a Mecha, so I could use not just the Pilot martial school maneuvers but also any martial school maneuvers (that aren't from Ace Pilot, Into the Danger Zone, or that 3rd SRW martial school) tied to the Moon Vanguard class 1/5mins as well couldn't I?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 12, 2015, 05:02:16 PM
Could it simply reduce the overcharged arsenal's bonus to 0 temporarily instead?
I don't think I would ever use the option if it effectively removed the Arsenal item after one use for at least the rest of an ingame day.

Edit: Altho losing the booster just for the rest of the current encounter (or a set amount of time outside of combat if not in an encounter) after the single use I could get behind. And then being able continue to overcharge it further to continue the Boosting like I described just below until you break it.

I do however like this suddenly needlessly complicated idea about being able to Overcharge the same arsenal item for consecutive rounds, with each round after the 1st having an increasing percent chance of burning out the Arsenal item untiil you have a chance to change arsenal options (repairing/replacing the burnt out Arsenal option).
Made it so that the acessory becomes nonfuctional for 10 rounds. Random chance to break doesn't sound like that much of a good idea to me.

Also, sorta on the side and unrelated a bit, but Born to Fight's "Able to use maneuvers usually only accessible while piloting a mecha when outside the mecha 1/5 minutes" bit. Moon Vanguard counts as a Pilot class, and Nano Armor counts as a Mecha, so I could use not just the Pilot martial school maneuvers but also any martial school maneuvers (that aren't from Ace Pilot, Into the Danger Zone, or that 3rd SRW martial school) tied to the Moon Vanguard class 1/5mins as well couldn't I?

Correct.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 26, 2016, 10:29:54 AM
Big number overhaul across all classes to make the attack bonus and AC values match better as they could get messy pretty easily.

Also tweaked several super robot upgrades and arsenal options.

(click to show/hide)

Things to do:
-Tools category for the arsenal, aka 1-use items, cartridge will be moved there.
-IE and bun gun maniac tactical feats.
-Newtype/Coordinator class, aka specialized in bonding and communication with other pilots.
-Random kid pilot class. Less maneuvers, more spirit.
-More PSO2-based schools.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 18, 2016, 08:09:59 AM
IE tactical feat added, along index on the feat thread.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 17, 2016, 09:25:57 AM
Minor update, nerfed Valor/Soul a bit so that they cannot score criticals and do not stack with other damage multipliers.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Rekmond on September 12, 2016, 06:00:13 AM
Hey Os was looking over some of this stuff to use in another campaign (currently trying to design a gestalt Moon Vanguard/God...quite fun) and found a few things that could use some clarification.

1:   Super Robot Upgrades
     I assume upgrades without a cost listed are 1 point apiece, but it doesn't say as such anywhere.

2: Another from the Super Robots

         Extra:The super robot gains one extra in-built basic weapon. Cannot be taken more than once per 4 HD.

    What does a basic weapon consist of in relation to this?

3: Reactor 1 and Generator 1 mecha properties
    If you receive these properties from multiple locations. Say Solar Panel (1) Arsenal and Mysterious Power super robot upgrade, do they stack or do you take the highest offered value?

Might have more later but that's it for now.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 13, 2016, 08:34:45 AM
1. Yes, clarified.

2. It's the same as the default in-built weapon (1d6 melee no extras).

3. Take highest value, that's why they have keywords.

Also great to hear there's DMs out there that will allow stuff like gestalt Moon Vanguard/God! :D
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Rekmond on September 13, 2016, 12:14:35 PM
Nice to know that most of my assumptions were correct then, didn't want to revisit my upgrades again so soon.

I will admit though to some desire to use this material at the local comic shop.  Fate Core just isn't a good system for mech games since you simply stack the same thing over and over. Mekton Zeta was fun way back, but outdated and needed some serious work on designing pilots.


As an aside, are there any plans for Zoids? I know they were in very few of the SRW games (same with Voltron) but well......Zoids.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on September 13, 2016, 08:03:49 PM
Holy fck Zoids is my JAM!!

SRW and Gundam, for me, don't hold a candle to Zoids xD
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 13, 2016, 08:19:12 PM
I never watched Zoids nor even saw their models selling. My only knowledge of them was seeing a GBA game seemingly based on them.

Could you point out Zoid's main selling points, what makes them stand out from other mechas? At first glance (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rgcSpzkxK8) it seems to be "animal-bots!". With the bad guys using dino-skeleton bots. Also something about organic metal from the wiki. Looks like something I could work with. But are the machines sentient? Any special energy sources? Are they powered up by believing in yourself? Do they regen? Also are they more melee based or shooty or hybrid? 
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Rekmond on September 13, 2016, 08:21:39 PM
Zoids has always been a local group favorite, we've run it a few different ways in the past, Fate 2 was especially fun.

      Note, always make sure you know the location of allies BEFORE firing the Charged Particle Cannons

Not entirely sure how to implement it in regard to the material already here though. New Mech chassis, feats, and even a school or two (maybe based on the bond between a sentient mech and the pilot, hmm) sure, but would new classes be needed?

Also, Zoids were renowned for their variations.   How many different Liger models were there?  So would most mechs need a minor upgrade system akin to the Super robots?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Rekmond on September 13, 2016, 09:14:26 PM
I never watched Zoids nor even saw their models selling. My only knowledge of them was seeing a GBA game seemingly based on them.

Could you point out Zoid's main selling points, what makes them stand out from other mechas? At first glance (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rgcSpzkxK8) it seems to be "animal-bots!". With the bad guys using dino-skeleton bots. Also something about organic metal from the wiki. Looks like something I could work with. But are the machines sentient? Any special energy sources? Are they powered up by believing in yourself? Do they regen? Also are they more melee based or shooty or hybrid?

Zoids were indeed sentient to a degree, most only possessed up to animal level intelligence relative to their model however.   There were exceptions to prove the rule, like the ones possessing Black Boxes.

They weren't powered up by believing in yourself or anything, but their performance could be affected by a pilots emotional and mental state. It was normally tactics or some new system that would win you the fight you were just losing, so more Real Pilot aligned I think. However a close relationship with your zoid was necessary to do well with it. The Liger Zero was thought to be worthless because no one could pilot it until Bit Cloud, simply due to it refusing to cooperate.

They possessed a Zoid Core that was essentially their heart and brain rolled up into one nice package, that if damaged would result in their termination without intervention (much like us actually). They could be grown from an intact core, and regenerate slowly.

'Wild' Zoids existed which were those without pilots, they usually maintained themselves through cannibalism of other zoids, devouring another's core in some cases, but depending on the timeline there were zoids that could persist off of metal laden plants or deposits.

Energy source....varies depending on the timeline. In Chaotic Century the Zoid EVE, an ancient Zoidian relic from before humans came supposedly powered all zoids, but later they introduced Reggel, which could be found in nature as well as manmade. A bucket worth was apparently enough to power a large zoid.

And they were fairly well balanced on melee vs ranged, with hard ammunition favored over energy in most cases.

There was also tech warfare with such examples as the Shadow Fox's smokescreen interfering with radar readings, the Killer Dome crab model capable of jamming radar entirely

While the main character always had a Liger as his personal Zoid, allies ran the whole animal kingdom and so did the enemies. Chaotic Century (the 1st timeline wise) each of the 2 main factions favored certain models but that changed in later series when the War was long over.


What makes Zoids stand out in my opinion, in that while robot fighting is still the main draw, it was the bond between the Pilot and Zoid that only grew stronger as the series went on. There was a great team feeling that something like Gundam didn't possess, a reminder of the intelligence of the mechs unlike the *insert super sentai/voltron substitute here*. Super Sentai came close with Wild Force admittedly, with Dino Thunder picking up the Saurs later And it didn't need enormous explosions in every action scene, or endless fan service wouldn't complain if it did though to keep you watching.

There was also the sheer number of mechs and customization compared to anything else at the time.  Pterasaurs, Falcons, Ligers, Gorillas, Tyrannosaurs, Elephants....even flying whales and sharks Whale King and Hammer Kaiser, they were carrier zoids. There was even a Caterpillar zoid.   If you wanted it, they probably had it somewhere.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on September 13, 2016, 11:23:37 PM
Gosh that's such a perfect explanation I had to upvote ya. I couldn't have said it nearly so well

Edit: If anything, os, Zoids could provide a lot more interesting super robot options as you could potentially make them a subset of super robots.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Rekmond on September 14, 2016, 12:47:17 AM
Gosh that's such a perfect explanation I had to upvote ya. I couldn't have said it nearly so well

Edit: If anything, os, Zoids could provide a lot more interesting super robot options as you could potentially make them a subset of super robots.

yay, my 1st upvote.

And the super robot options is something I'd considered when I began thinking about this.

Basically set up different base chassis (Humanoid, Quadruped, Saurian, etc) as options and build from there.

As far as I can recall not many zoids had ranged weapons naturally. If they did it was due to human involvement customizing them.  And the lack of ranged weapons fits into the base Super Robot idea from what I've seen.

A lot of the stunts they pull are right from the Super Pilot playbook too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gha5zf7kGZE

how they actually win This fight especially.
  no luck finding it without being an amv sadly.  Maybe looking it up by episode number..


edit: Said if you wanted it they probably had it.

Took a few to find it, but this could very well prove my claim.

BEHOLD!!! Brony Zoid the Orudios
(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/zoids/images/4/4f/Orudios.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081226020311)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on September 14, 2016, 01:01:57 AM
The different Base Chassis you mentioned actually reminded me of how Pathfinder's Summoner's Eidolon has a similar setup, basically, to how Super Robots work here lol.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Rekmond on September 14, 2016, 01:50:39 AM
I hadn't thought of that at all.  Was just trying to think of the easiest method to enable the huge variety of Zoids, without statting out a ridiculous number of models.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 29, 2016, 08:50:36 PM
Bunch of general updates:
-New Super upgrades. Soul of the machine to increase max spirit points and spirit regen, paired weapon to get twin-linked weapons that can be further upgraded to combine as a Heavy weapon, Balanced for Finesse , Blasting for Brutal on ranged weapons.
-Increased super robot in-built weapons base damage to 1d10.
-Added levels V, VI and VII  (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7161.msg178254#msg178254) to the expanded list of real robots.

Didn't forget about Zoids, but first wanted to finish a bunch of stuff already in the backburner.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 29, 2016, 09:19:38 PM
I am so conflicted about the new Great One upgrades. Actually picking one is going to be a pain.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 29, 2016, 10:09:04 PM
Just as planned. :smirk
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 29, 2016, 10:14:25 PM
Eh, I'm due for a total rebuild of the thing anyway (and it hasn't been seen since it blew up round one of having it :lmao), so it's no big deal to work out what the mecha is meant for.

I definitely prefer that version for allowing large mecha to go compensate for at least one of the size aspects/specialise in something regardless of enormity over the version you mentioned in the OOC. Big cost, but the offset once you've got a big enough robot is neat.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on September 29, 2016, 11:29:35 PM
On the topic of Zoids, a new (maybe) anime was teased!!!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on October 01, 2016, 12:07:32 AM
Can you pick Soul of the Machine multiple times for a stacking effect?

Why are you banned from Hyperdimensional Storage now if you have Mysterious Power and/or Nanomachines?
And while on that, by technicality, " You cannot pick this if you have either Nanomachines or Mysterious Power." BUT does it also mean if you picked it before you gained either of the regen upgrades, that you immediately lose and/or get refunded Hyperdimensional Storage?

Edit: Something I just noticed, but everytime a batch of changes come out to rebalance or buff Reals or Supers or both, all my

Like, basically, every update some how nerfs Supers every time despite constantly adding options for them  :???
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 01, 2016, 02:49:47 AM
Can you pick Soul of the Machine multiple times for a stacking effect?
Yes.

Why are you banned from Hyperdimensional Storage now if you have Mysterious Power and/or Nanomachines?
Because they were all basically auto-picks for any and every super robot even with increasing costs.

And while on that, by technicality, " You cannot pick this if you have either Nanomachines or Mysterious Power." BUT does it also mean if you picked it before you gained either of the regen upgrades, that you immediately lose and/or get refunded Hyperdimensional Storage?
That cannot happen as Nanomachines/Mysterious power cannot be picked if you already have Hyperdimensional Storage.

Edit: Something I just noticed, but everytime a batch of changes come out to rebalance or buff Reals or Supers or both, all my

Like, basically, every update some how nerfs Supers every time despite constantly adding options for them  :???
That's because my updates aren't meant to be power creeps. I nerf the options that are too OP while adding new ones.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Rekmond on October 05, 2016, 12:13:13 PM
Such fun additions and updates.
    And don't worry Ketaro, You aren't alone on the hyperdimension and nanomachines/mysterious power conflict.

I understand why....but dislike it. But I think that's the squealing mech fan inside of me that dislikes it....


The base weapon damage for inbuilts being boosted to d10 is a nice relief. Since for Supers cutting them off from dimensional storage meant no arsenal for anything over the d6s without plus sizing yourself.

I think this will all be interesting especially for the Moon Vanguard with the loadout setup. More variety between the loadouts instead of same base with differet weps and accessories.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 15, 2016, 10:17:24 PM
I've a question about the Super Robot "Extra" upgrade. It says you get an extra basic weapon built in. Is that another one of the d10+str ones that come default, or what? On a similar note, how do you get ranged weapons like chest blasters and boost knuckles for your Grungust?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 15, 2016, 10:29:41 PM
I've a question about the Super Robot "Extra" upgrade. It says you get an extra basic weapon built in. Is that another one of the d10+str ones that come default, or what? On a similar note, how do you get ranged weapons like chest blasters and boost knuckles for your Grungust?

1) Yes.

2) Real Robot multiclassing or Arsenal to get at ranged weapons, then refluff. Or Burning Justice maneuvers.

Which I argue continues to put nanomachines in the worst possible situation, because you're stuffed when it comes to anything but the inbuilt weapons for... healing. Refresh or Guts, one arsenal item to upgrade spirit? Supers have no reason to take the thing only Supers can get, because you lose a stupid amount of options for things you can do better with 25 Arsenal space.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 16, 2016, 02:31:13 AM
Another question. I keep seeing mentions of a "Moon Vanguard" class, but I can't seem to find it. Has it been posted?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 16, 2016, 05:14:44 AM
Moon Vanguard (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7993.msg125395#msg125395) is from another project of mine that borrows the mecha rules.

Which I argue continues to put nanomachines in the worst possible situation, because you're stuffed when it comes to anything but the inbuilt weapons for... healing. Refresh or Guts, one arsenal item to upgrade spirit? Supers have no reason to take the thing only Supers can get, because you lose a stupid amount of options for things you can do better with 25 Arsenal space.

I plan to go around adding situational penalties to the non-weapon Arsenal options in the near future. Already did that to some like the armors now slow you down and the shields can't protect you if you're flanked.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 17, 2016, 01:07:51 AM
Do mecha weapons count as one or two handed for purposes of Power Attack? Is that just a fluff thing?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 17, 2016, 02:11:53 AM
Good question, added a clause to the general mecha combat that a mecha weapons counts as two-handed for Power Attack and similar abilities if you don't use any other weapons for the round.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 17, 2016, 11:15:25 AM
How about enchantment? Can you enchant your mecha's weapons? I'm going to assume either you can't, or if you do you don't get to use the Over the Top feature of the I Am Invincible feat, but what if you're not going for that?

Also: The description for growth says standard benefits and penalties for size, except no stat changes and nat armor only increases by 1. By SRD, size changes don't change stats or nat armor at all. What changes are intended to be applied here?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 17, 2016, 07:15:08 PM
How about enchantment? Can you enchant your mecha's weapons? I'm going to assume either you can't, or if you do you don't get to use the Over the Top feature of the I Am Invincible feat, but what if you're not going for that?
You can't enchant your mecha's weapons/plating. I'll specify that later in the intro if it's not clear enough yet.

Also: The description for growth says standard benefits and penalties for size, except no stat changes and nat armor only increases by 1. By SRD, size changes don't change stats or nat armor at all. What changes are intended to be applied here?

I have to say I agree with you about the stats ad natural armor change.

However, I've seen a lot of people over the years claim the other way just because of the monster advancement rules by HD. So I just include that clause by default in all my homebrew that changes size just in case.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 17, 2016, 07:22:35 PM
Another few questions. Is it at all possible for super robots to get Heavy weapons? because I can't figure out a way to do it aside from Arsenal, and if that's the only way, why does it specify special bonuses for Heavy [Main] Weapons?
Is it at all possible to get an Area weapon on a super without arsenal?
Why do supers have the Blasting upgrade available? They can't have built-in ranged weapons.
And if all Supers get from growth is +1 nat armor...what's the point, and why is it so restricted? +base size and bonus to maneuvers is typically not worth a penalty to hit and AC, so...why?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 17, 2016, 07:43:32 PM
Size = higher weapon damage dice, better reach, better grapple modifiers, and carrying capacity explicitly factors it in. It also restricts other people's options regarding what they can do to you. There's also the roleplay benefits and times when sheer common sense means that, no, someone behind a wall can't have cover when the wall comes to your ankle.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 17, 2016, 10:26:09 PM
Another few questions. Is it at all possible for super robots to get Heavy weapons? because I can't figure out a way to do it aside from Arsenal,
Pick Paired weapon twice and you can combine them into an Heavy weapon.

and if that's the only way, why does it specify special bonuses for Heavy [Main] Weapons?
You can get a Heavy [Main] weapon by multiclassing Super Pilot with either Real or Ship Captain.

Is it at all possible to get an Area weapon on a super without arsenal?
Not before, but added that option to versatile.

Why do supers have the Blasting upgrade available? They can't have built-in ranged weapons.
Well you can with Transform (tank). Also multiclass.

And if all Supers get from growth is +1 nat armor...what's the point, and why is it so restricted? +base size and bonus to maneuvers is typically not worth a penalty to hit and AC, so...why?

As Raineh pointed out, big nice bonus to damage die and reach. Area property will affect a wider zone. Plus mechas are specifically immune to most effects from smaller non-mecha. Great One uprade also scales strongly with size.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 17, 2016, 11:34:02 PM
No weapons (that I can see) have a damage type listed. What damage types are everything? (relevant for bypassing DR)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on October 18, 2016, 01:02:21 AM
I'll probably check everything new in greater depths later but something stroke my eye when I glanced over the Great One upgrades;
Great Agility grants +40 mu movement speed while the normal seems to have the bonus be equivalent to 4 upgrade points in their respective kind of upgrade, but Agility gives 5 mu per point, so the Great One is effectively doubling the gains in speed.
Just pointing it out in case giving bigger speeds than the norm for four points wasn't intended.
Its colossal bonus to agility is also noted as granting DR.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 18, 2016, 12:09:11 PM
No weapons (that I can see) have a damage type listed. What damage types are everything? (relevant for bypassing DR)
1. Echoing.

2. Also as is there is no point in using Minimization. Perhaps Great Agility/Targeting should be adjusted to provide extra bonuses if you focus on being smaller. Arsenal also appears unaffected by changing you mech size, maybe in a way this avoids penalizing Miniaturization but then again Built-Ins are which forces the smaller mechs to use Arsenal which inevitably forces all small Mechs to rely on melee (see below) where they will auto-fail opposing Grapple Checks which presumably disables use of their Arsenal and rely on their inferior Built-Ins for one sided battles.

3. A more in depth look at DPR.
Using Gargantuan, 30 Str/Dex, for the opposing DR without Arsenal you can reach 35 so let's go with that.

A) A Greatsword deals 24d6+10 (94 avg), it costs 6,400gp but while Enhancement costs don't rescale making a Masterwork version costs 44,800 so let's just stick to that normal figure. Assuming three attacks per round because maybe you're looking at taking lv14 that's 118 after DR.
B) Focusing on Mech weapons, you can take Mightyx8, Pairedx1, & Rending. This gives you a double 4d8+26 (44 avg) per attack action, or 156 post DR after six attacks. More attacks, more damage, but costs several upgrade points.
C) For Heavy let's look at the Antiship Beam Sword which is one of the most powerful weapons and as lv3 can be Linked and assuming Mightyx8, you get two attacks of 9d12+36 (94.5) for 119 which comes out pretty close to the cheap Greatsword but has Power/Concussive/Disarming making it a better choice unless you need to trade those Mech properties away for gear-related Arsenal.

Seems fair right? Well let's look at Ranged. A +10 Longbow costs 140,800gp so instead let's just go with a Heavy Repeater for 16d8 (72 avg) which is three attacks and 111 after DR. Built-Ins via Tank become 3d8+26 (39.5 avg) or 129 after DR. And for Arsenal we have two choices, Linked lv3 comes to 3d6+26 (36.5 avg) or 9 after DR and none-Linked comes to 4d6+26 (40 avg) or 15 post DR. Even moving back to a Heavy Railgun for 12d10+36 (102 avg) even after post Rending DR that's only 84. Ranged Arsenal just isn't worth using.

4. Minor nitpick but your Arsenal dice are all over the place with no discernible pattern beyond Ranged gets about an average of 1d6 per level. Like lets look at melee, both heavy & not.
Lv1: 1d8 (4.5) / 2d10 (11)
Lv2: 2d6 (7, +2.5 gain) / 9d8 (40.5, +29.5 gain)
Lv3: 2d6 (7, +0 gain) / 9d12 (58.5, +18 gain)
Lv4: 3d6 (10.5, +3.5 gain) / 12d12 (78, +19.5 gain)
Lv5: 4d6 (14, +3.5 gain) / 20d10 (110, +32 gain)
Lv6: 8d8 (36, +22 gain) / 19d12 (123.5, +13.5 gain)
Lv7: 10d10 (55, +19 gain) / 30d12 (195, +71.5 gain)

Which is probably why Heavy melee's figures can keep up with the other choices.  :eh

6. btw, given the "future" nature of a Super Robot campaign how does this interact with the DMG's modern weapons such as a Shotgun or d20's weapons, since you have rail guns & colossal mechs, say a Pulse Rifle?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on October 18, 2016, 02:59:29 PM
Smaller creatures aren't faster than bigger creatures so speed boosts for being smaller doesn't make much sense.

As for the melee vs. ranged stuff, unless it's a super special weapon system, most fights with giant robots that aren't against disposable looks are generally won in melee in such shows.

That's my opinion *shrugs*
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 18, 2016, 08:27:17 PM
No weapons (that I can see) have a damage type listed. What damage types are everything? (relevant for bypassing DR)
1. Echoing.
Added damage types across the boards.

2. Also as is there is no point in using Minimization. Perhaps Great Agility/Targeting should be adjusted to provide extra bonuses if you focus on being smaller. Arsenal also appears unaffected by changing you mech size, maybe in a way this avoids penalizing Miniaturization but then again Built-Ins are which forces the smaller mechs to use Arsenal which inevitably forces all small Mechs to rely on melee (see below) where they will auto-fail opposing Grapple Checks which presumably disables use of their Arsenal and rely on their inferior Built-Ins for one sided battles.
Added arsenal size scaling and miniaturization exception.

3. A more in depth look at DPR.
Using Gargantuan, 30 Str/Dex, for the opposing DR without Arsenal you can reach 35 so let's go with that.

A) A Greatsword deals 24d6+10 (94 avg), it costs 6,400gp but while Enhancement costs don't rescale making a Masterwork version costs 44,800 so let's just stick to that normal figure. Assuming three attacks per round because maybe you're looking at taking lv14 that's 118 after DR.
B) Focusing on Mech weapons, you can take Mightyx8, Pairedx1, & Rending. This gives you a double 4d8+26 (44 avg) per attack action, or 156 post DR after six attacks. More attacks, more damage, but costs several upgrade points.
C) For Heavy let's look at the Antiship Beam Sword which is one of the most powerful weapons and as lv3 can be Linked and assuming Mightyx8, you get two attacks of 9d12+36 (94.5) for 119 which comes out pretty close to the cheap Greatsword but has Power/Concussive/Disarming making it a better choice unless you need to trade those Mech properties away for gear-related Arsenal.

Seems fair right? Well let's look at Ranged. A +10 Longbow costs 140,800gp so instead let's just go with a Heavy Repeater for 16d8 (72 avg) which is three attacks and 111 after DR. Built-Ins via Tank become 3d8+26 (39.5 avg) or 129 after DR. And for Arsenal we have two choices, Linked lv3 comes to 3d6+26 (36.5 avg) or 9 after DR and none-Linked comes to 4d6+26 (40 avg) or 15 post DR. Even moving back to a Heavy Railgun for 12d10+36 (102 avg) even after post Rending DR that's only 84. Ranged Arsenal just isn't worth using.
You're ignoring the fact ranged mecha weapons get to add Dex mod to damage (1,5 times if you don't use other ranged weapons, x2 if it's heavy), plus mecha maneuver/stance synergy and whatnot.

And that the crossow still has range in feet while the railgun has range in mu (420 feet not too shabby).

And that the railgun has +8 to hit (often at least +10 actually since the heavy repeater's base range increment is a whooping 20 mu).

And that's before taking in account the Power property that will further increase the G-Railgun's chances of hitting.

As a famous mecha pilot said, it's pointless how powerful your weapon is if you can't actually land a hit with it. ;)

4. Minor nitpick but your Arsenal dice are all over the place with no discernible pattern beyond Ranged gets about an average of 1d6 per level.
If I wanted a boring pattern, I would've written a boring pattern and posted it instead of writing down individual weapons.

6. btw, given the "future" nature of a Super Robot campaign how does this interact with the DMG's modern weapons such as a Shotgun or d20's weapons, since you have rail guns & colossal mechs, say a Pulse Rifle?

Ask your DM since they're optional rules that aren't even in the srd.

In my case, they don't interact, point.

I'll probably check everything new in greater depths later but something stroke my eye when I glanced over the Great One upgrades;
Great Agility grants +40 mu movement speed while the normal seems to have the bonus be equivalent to 4 upgrade points in their respective kind of upgrade, but Agility gives 5 mu per point, so the Great One is effectively doubling the gains in speed.
Just pointing it out in case giving bigger speeds than the norm for four points wasn't intended.
Its colossal bonus to agility is also noted as granting DR.

Thanks, fixed.

Smaller creatures aren't faster than bigger creatures so speed boosts for being smaller doesn't make much sense.

As for the melee vs. ranged stuff, unless it's a super special weapon system, most fights with giant robots that aren't against disposable looks are generally won in melee in such shows.

That's my opinion *shrugs*

That too. Melee having higher damage output than ranged is a feature, not a bug, since otherwise nobody bothers trying to get in close.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 18, 2016, 08:43:49 PM
I'm not sure how many below-medium super robots there are, anyway. Lagann is, but it's meant to combine into bigger and bigger things. Buster Machine #7? Sure, but it's impossible to build Nono within the rules given in the slightest. When a single Getter Machine manages to be a mecha it still seems to avoid actually being small. It's just something that, even when they can do it, ends up going very big regardless.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 18, 2016, 08:57:20 PM
There's a typo in the Nanomachines description. It says buying it additional times increases your Reactor level. Should say Regeneration, I think
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 18, 2016, 11:28:29 PM
1. Added damage types across the boards.
2. Added arsenal size scaling and miniaturization exception.
3. You're ignoring the fact ranged mecha weapons get to add Dex mod to damage (1,5 times if you don't use other ranged weapons, x2 if it's heavy), plus mecha maneuver/stance synergy and whatnot.
4. If I wanted a boring pattern, I would've written a boring pattern and posted it instead of writing down individual weapons.
5. Ask your DM since they're optional rules that aren't even in the srd. In my case, they don't interact, point.
6. That too. Melee having higher damage output than ranged is a feature, not a bug, since otherwise nobody bothers trying to get in close.
1. Cool.
2., If mech weapons deal more now it'll probably replace simply increasing basic weapons unless you ran out of Arsenal space and the ranged side of Arsenal should catch up some too.
3. No I didn't, the +26 modifier is +10 Dex & +16 for Mightyx8 and the +36 Modifier for the Railgun is by applying Dex twice. I did however miss the x1.5 Rate for same weapon type, I thought using two Built-Ins, or two Antiship Sabers, or w/e & etc, meant no same weapon bonus. That'll tweak a few numbers.
4. Ha :p Seriously through, by switching dice back and forth, kind of like you already did, you can hide the DPR gains for each level being an even scaling increase. Plus all the properties can have a specific weight they add to the balance, you can produce tons of unique variations even through mechanically each one is only better than the other if the circumstances favor it and the never level up is almost always better than the last (specially giving the link property, eg +7 dmg < x2). See also #5.
5. They are "optional" rules because D&D games are set in the 1100s or so, not year ummm.... 5016?
A WoTC official d20 product built off the D&D 3rd Edition ruleset does over this area, and yes Modern has it's own public SRD. D&D registers in as PL3 while Eberron, which stole Modern's Action Point System, registers in at PL4. Are current technology level is supposed to be PL5 and mechs start showing up I think are PL7 and higher.

To call back to #4, there are literately dozens of weapons and equipment split through the PLs and there are a lot of unique weapons to be found. Like beam swords even show up in PL8, but even cooler? There is a gravity gun that use alternating attraction/repulsion to rip their targets apart and that sounds awesome! It's worth knowing Modern's system if you plan to build any type of future campaign and it gives you a ton of content to rip off, like do you have a targeting system that reduces concealment? Why not just steal the entry text for the Mech's X-ray visor? How about in your Star game why do we refer to are comm devices as cell phones instead of pipboys or omnitools? Because ambiguity. No one has asked, nothing has been written. A shortcut? PL8 tech is on the table, ask your DM what you can afford. There is a massive amount of world building content at your fingertips that just wants someone to shed some light on it.

6. The problem isn't Melee>Range and don't be confused with Ketaro's thinking it is. But Ranged Arsenal didn't (past tense since you altered a few things so a new crunch needs made) keep up with anything. You could make pretty viable ranged Built-Ins or increasing the size of basic weapons, just not if you were using Arsenal. I'll have to take a look at the changes tomorrow through and see what all was fixed.

Edit - One thing that may help is standardizing progression.
So like the Antiship Sword is 9d12 which of course appears no where on the table. You could use the de facto standard of +2 Size double and round down which means Large should be 13d12 (84.5 avg). You could also claim that since nothing converts into a d12 you need to switch it to the standard d6 or d8 and since 1d12 increased by one Size is 3d6 that comes out to 27d6 (94.5 avg). Perhaps a little less tactful since A) it deals more this way. B) Everything becomes Xd6 or Xd8. So I suggest the former.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 18, 2016, 11:38:45 PM
Given that this is 3.5 homebrew focused entirely on implementing mecha, digging around in what's essentially a separate d20 game for wording is a path to having a scenario that is more confusing and has far many more unevaluated loose ends. I don't think this is a complete rules rewrite akin to Modern. <_<
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 18, 2016, 11:49:43 PM
Given that this is 3.5 homebrew focused entirely on implementing mecha, digging around in what's essentially a separate d20 game for wording is a path to having a scenario that is more confusing and has far many more unevaluated loose ends. I don't think this is a complete rules rewrite akin to Modern. <_<
Not really and your missing the point worse than Ketaro. Like where in my post did I even come close to saying use d20's Mech system? Nowhere.

I said steal the flavor from it. Suddenly "G-Revolver " gains the short description of "The G-Revolver uses gravitic inducers that cycled rapidly back and forth between attraction and repulsion, literately tearing the target to pieces.". And if your pdr is OCR'ed it's simply copypasta but now all the Arsenal weapons have unique flavor instead of just a name or very odd die value.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 18, 2016, 11:57:49 PM
If I'm missing your point, it's because you go from what was obviously a response to rules to rules from another system to fluff in one paragraph with as little plain English as possible.

I'm all in favour of not having cringeworthy technobabble fluff stuffed into things for padding, by the way.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 19, 2016, 12:30:00 AM
If I'm missing your point, it's because you go from what was obviously a response to rules to rules from another system to fluff in one paragraph with as little plain English as possible.
"to rules to rules!"  :eh

I don't really feel Modern is another system but you can pretend it's a super complex system not worth your time understanding if you like. Similarly you can also demand Ols to strip all flavor away for rule-text only because words scare the crap out of you. However my posts are directed at Ols and not the negative Nancy crowd bitching about things for the sake of bitching about things.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 19, 2016, 12:39:15 AM
If I'm missing your point, it's because you go from what was obviously a response to rules to rules from another system to fluff in one paragraph with as little plain English as possible.
"to rules to rules!"  :eh

Fine, have the verbose version: rules from outside of 3.5 were rejected, you went on an unnecessarily detailed tangent about some part of the Modern stuff, and then went into fluff in two paragraphs full of incomplete sentences. If the point is fluff, there are quicker and less misleading ways to get to it.

Quote
I don't really feel Modern is another system but you can pretend it's a super complex system not worth your time understanding if you like. Similarly you can also demand Ols to strip all flavor away for rule-text only because words scare the crap out of you. However my posts are directed at Ols and not the negative Nancy crowd bitching about things for the sake of bitching about things.

I think it's more separate from 3.5 than other d20 systems I've played in, so... O_o

Flavour text on mass-produced weapons is just padding. And, well, this is mecha; detailed (copied) fluff on weapons is a waste.  <_<
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 19, 2016, 12:56:21 AM
I'm not sure how many below-medium super robots there are, anyway. Lagann is, but it's meant to combine into bigger and bigger things. Buster Machine #7? Sure, but it's impossible to build Nono within the rules given in the slightest. When a single Getter Machine manages to be a mecha it still seems to avoid actually being small. It's just something that, even when they can do it, ends up going very big regardless.


For diminutive super robots, think Tekkaman Blade.

Nono for the most of her show could be a moon vanguard that eventually picks leadership along a crazy Cha score for her personal army. Just her final form that can push planets around can't be stated up right now. It's something I have to tackle one of these days. Maybe a PrC for "uber massive robot"?

There's a typo in the Nanomachines description. It says buying it additional times increases your Reactor level. Should say Regeneration, I think

Fixed, thanks. So many typos... :blush

1. Added damage types across the boards.
2. Added arsenal size scaling and miniaturization exception.
3. You're ignoring the fact ranged mecha weapons get to add Dex mod to damage (1,5 times if you don't use other ranged weapons, x2 if it's heavy), plus mecha maneuver/stance synergy and whatnot.
4. If I wanted a boring pattern, I would've written a boring pattern and posted it instead of writing down individual weapons.
5. Ask your DM since they're optional rules that aren't even in the srd. In my case, they don't interact, point.
6. That too. Melee having higher damage output than ranged is a feature, not a bug, since otherwise nobody bothers trying to get in close.
1. Cool.
2., If mech weapons deal more now it'll probably replace simply increasing basic weapons unless you ran out of Arsenal space and the ranged side of Arsenal should catch up some too.
3. No I didn't, the +26 modifier is +10 Dex & +16 for Mightyx8 and the +36 Modifier for the Railgun is by applying Dex twice. I did however miss the x1.5 Rate for same weapon type, I thought using two Built-Ins, or two Antiship Sabers, or w/e & etc, meant no same weapon bonus. That'll tweak a few numbers.
4. Ha :p Seriously through, by switching dice back and forth, kind of like you already did, you can hide the DPR gains for each level being an even scaling increase. Plus all the properties can have a specific weight they add to the balance, you can produce tons of unique variations even through mechanically each one is only better than the other if the circumstances favor it and the never level up is almost always better than the last (specially giving the link property, eg +7 dmg < x2). See also #5.
5. They are "optional" rules because D&D games are set in the 1100s or so, not year ummm.... 5016?
A WoTC official d20 product built off the D&D 3rd Edition ruleset does over this area, and yes Modern has it's own public SRD. D&D registers in as PL3 while Eberron, which stole Modern's Action Point System, registers in at PL4. Are current technology level is supposed to be PL5 and mechs start showing up I think are PL7 and higher.

To call back to #4, there are literately dozens of weapons and equipment split through the PLs and there are a lot of unique weapons to be found. Like beam swords even show up in PL8, but even cooler? There is a gravity gun that use alternating attraction/repulsion to rip their targets apart and that sounds awesome! It's worth knowing Modern's system if you plan to build any type of future campaign and it gives you a ton of content to rip off, like do you have a targeting system that reduces concealment? Why not just steal the entry text for the Mech's X-ray visor? How about in your Star game why do we refer to are comm devices as cell phones instead of pipboys or omnitools? Because ambiguity. No one has asked, nothing has been written. A shortcut? PL8 tech is on the table, ask your DM what you can afford. There is a massive amount of world building content at your fingertips that just wants someone to shed some light on it.

6. The problem isn't Melee>Range and don't be confused with Ketaro's thinking it is. But Ranged Arsenal didn't (past tense since you altered a few things so a new crunch needs made) keep up with anything. You could make pretty viable ranged Built-Ins or increasing the size of basic weapons, just not if you were using Arsenal. I'll have to take a look at the changes tomorrow through and see what all was fixed.

Edit - One thing that may help is standardizing progression.
So like the Antiship Sword is 9d12 which of course appears no where on the table. You could use the de facto standard of +2 Size double and round down which means Large should be 13d12 (84.5 avg). You could also claim that since nothing converts into a d12 you need to switch it to the standard d6 or d8 and since 1d12 increased by one Size is 3d6 that comes out to 27d6 (94.5 avg). Perhaps a little less tactful since A) it deals more this way. B) Everything becomes Xd6 or Xd8. So I suggest the former.

3.You still didn't adress the part where the mundane weapons have a much worst acuraccy.
4.Look, pure point-buy systems are cute and all, but they already were proved to be a failure. There's a reason why Gurps is some obscure barely played system while D&D/Pathfinder ended up the cool RPGs. And that reason is because no matter how hard you try to balance your pure point-buy system, you can never fully account for synergy, leading to eventually people figuring out the most synergetic como and not using anything else. Case in point, the Super Robot is only half-point buy and still has been a pain in the ass to refine. If I also turn the weapons into a point buy, then all I end with is one single weapon build that everybody takes because everything else will be less self-synergetic. And that's a double failure when you take in account that big robots are supposed to be bristling with different types of weaponry pratically be damned. Tl.Dr, fuck pure point buy with a giga rust getter voltekka.
5. I agree that the arsenal stuff could use some minor fluff bits. But honestly I've got plenty of other stuff in the backburner to do first. And if I had an urge to do it, I would probably use something I actually have at hand and have solid familiarity with. I've never played d20 modern, don't have the books, don't know where the srd is, and don't even know what PLX is about (please don't try to explain, if I wanted to know I would search it myself).
6. Whot? :psyduck
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 19, 2016, 01:04:19 AM
Partly my issue with the lack of ranged access on super robots is I can't figure out what maneuver to use for a Cross Smasher or a Black Hole Cluster  :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Rekmond on October 19, 2016, 01:12:25 AM

4.Look, pure point-buy systems are cute and all, but they already were proved to be a failure. There's a reason why Gurps is some obscure barely played system while D&D/Pathfinder ended up the cool RPGs. And that reason is because no matter how hard you try to balance your pure point-buy system, you can never fully account for synergy, leading to eventually people figuring out the most synergistic combo and not using anything else. Case in point, the Super Robot is only half-point buy and still has been a pain in the ass to refine. If I also turn the weapons into a point buy, then all I end with is one single weapon build that everybody takes because everything else will be less self-synergistic. And that's a double failure when you take in account that big robots are supposed to be bristling with different types of weaponry practically be damned. Tl.Dr, fuck pure point buy with a giga rust getter voltekka.

You would run into the same problem with Mekton Zeta. There were multiple ways to do the stealth god build where nothing could ever detect you.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on October 19, 2016, 01:12:47 AM
I'm going to echo Os' "Whot" in response to point #6 and a later post of Soro's subtly bashing my apparent complete loss of some sort of point he was making?

Because what I actually said was directly in relation to how Os' SRW homebrew reflects how giant robots/mecha are depicted in their respective games/shows and had nothing to do with the massive number crunching you're trying to do :p
Case in point:
most fights with giant robots that aren't against disposable mooks are generally won in melee in such shows.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 19, 2016, 10:54:38 AM
most fights with giant robots that aren't against disposable mooks are generally won in melee in such shows.
Well sure, but there are a bunch of giant robots that have their final moves be ranged, too. Gravion, Dancouga, Baldios, Zeorymer off the top of my head.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 19, 2016, 12:27:48 PM
3.You still didn't adress the part where the mundane weapons have a much worst acuraccy.
That's easy enough.

Repeating the examples from before, blowing 19 Upgrade Points & 75 Arsenal a Super Mech can get 43+Dex AC. His opponent spends 8 Upgrade Points and 25 Arsenal points to counter and even using a nonmagical weapon with no Feats or Class Features added in has a 65% chance to hit and I purposely avoided bringing in magic because someone didn't like my Splitting example else where and called it broken.

But then there is this.
You can't enchant your mecha's weapons/plating. I'll specify that later in the intro if it's not clear enough yet.
Which of course does not affect normal weapons. The Enhancement Bonus cost is the same on a Colossal+++ weapon as it is on a Fine--- weapon, the only thing that changes is the Masterwork fee which can be bypassed with stuff like Magic Weapon, or Minor Schemas of Weapon Augmentation or Concurrent Infusions, or Hilted Wands of Wraithstrike. So honestly Mech weapons are not the only thing with bonuses to attack.

Likewise, since a majority of that 43 AC comes from Dodge bonuses (agilityx8 & bio sensor) you can use the Natch System to remove them, reducing your target's optimized AC by at least twelve points. It's one of the reasons I spammed it on Bahamut at the start of the Phantasy Star campaign even through the modifier was pretty low, if you roll badly on Spot it meant I would hit with anything anyway.

4. That's a little extreme tilted, I'm just talking about narrowing the wide dots like one Arsenal level gives a +0 increase to ranged damage while another Arsenal level gives almost +100 to melee. That's a pretty wide margin and you don't have to move to a Point Buy system to fix it, just trim the dice averages a little closer together and maybe try to compensate for Rending's ability to ignore half the target's DR. This also directly correlates with #6 because in your near random figures you've produced a problem that ranged Arsenal weapons don't really serve much use.

5. I figured you would flavor things as some point, you typically do with the rest of your homebrew. Stealing what you can from Modern will give you copypasta through and speed the process up. I might know a guy with none-OCR'ed PDFs if you know a guy with a good OCR program *shiftyeyes*.

6. *sighes* tl;dr.
Mech melee deals 156, Mech ranged deals 129.
D&D melee deals 118, D&D ranged deals 111.
Arsenal melee deals 119, Arsenal ranged deals 15 (85 if heavy).
And no that two digit number for Arsenal's ranged is not a typo.
Slightly depreciated since Arsenal weapons now scale by Size and I haven't recrunched the values.
Which speaking of, did you catch the edit to explain how you want the dice to progress?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on October 19, 2016, 02:58:44 PM
most fights with giant robots that aren't against disposable mooks are generally won in melee in such shows.
Well sure, but there are a bunch of giant robots that have their final moves be ranged, too. Gravion, Dancouga, Baldios, Zeorymer off the top of my head.

Which I also covered in my own post that I quoted for exclusions being for those really rare times when it's a "super special weapon system". Really not common.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 19, 2016, 07:07:15 PM
most fights with giant robots that aren't against disposable mooks are generally won in melee in such shows.
Well sure, but there are a bunch of giant robots that have their final moves be ranged, too. Gravion, Dancouga, Baldios, Zeorymer off the top of my head.

Which I also covered in my own post that I quoted for exclusions being for those really rare times when it's a "super special weapon system". Really not common.
But saying "Unless it's with a super special weapon system" is like saying "Unless it's a normal fight". Most super robot shows just pull out some new weapon every other episode, then default back to the normal finisher
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 19, 2016, 07:18:20 PM
I'm not sure how many of them would fall into Arsenal ("here, give your thing a gun") and not inbuilt weapons or maneuvers.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 20, 2016, 11:26:55 AM
What's the damage die on an Arcane Pilot's familiar pods?

Also, the Arcane Pilot's Favored Spell class feature says it improves their maneuvers. I'm going to assume that meant spells?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 21, 2016, 03:36:49 PM
What's the damage die on an Arcane Pilot's familiar pods?
Quote
Familiar:At 4th level the Arcane Pilot can summon a familiar as a sorceror/wizard. If he does so, his Arcane Robot will develop a special combat pod that can be piloted by the familiar. It has all the properties of the "parent" super robot, except
-Half max HP and 1/5 max energy.
-Only one natural weapon, however it can be shot with a range of 25 feet plus 5 feet per 2 CL, dealing untyped damage. Don't add or substract any stat mod to the damage in this case, and they ignore DR.
-Two size category smaller than the "parent" HP. Don't change ability scores, natural armor or natural weapon damage.
So say you had a Gargantuan Mech, it's 1d10 Built-Ins become 4d8 and your Familiar uses 2d8 or about 9 damage per attack if they hit. More if you use Mighty which isn't a "stat mod".

I had a post related to this in the Phantasy Star game and my post observed that a Familiar copies the Hyperdimensional Storage upgrade allowing it to take Arsenal. So if you're level 14 pick up some Large Rectangular Launchers. since there is no clarification how to advance dice oddities, favorably it comes out to 18d8+[250% DexMod]*2, @+10 Dex & Mightyx8 that's 122 per shot. It's a lot but when you get into Evocation, and good Spells to which the Arcane Pilot has none, Familiars are pretty handy for multiplying your damage anyway. They come with the downside of XP lose if they die through so it's like dialing Glass Cannon up to eleven.

The real break point if you go this route though is that the Arcane Pilot can snag multiple Familiars. Extra FamiliarDragon280 is the only other method that can do this outside of other homebrew. And as you can expect, things get about as silly as a White Raven Specialist with Leadership.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 21, 2016, 05:32:18 PM
What's the damage die on an Arcane Pilot's familiar pods?
Quote
Familiar:At 4th level the Arcane Pilot can summon a familiar as a sorceror/wizard. If he does so, his Arcane Robot will develop a special combat pod that can be piloted by the familiar. It has all the properties of the "parent" super robot, except
-Half max HP and 1/5 max energy.
-Only one natural weapon, however it can be shot with a range of 25 feet plus 5 feet per 2 CL, dealing untyped damage. Don't add or substract any stat mod to the damage in this case, and they ignore DR.
-Two size category smaller than the "parent" HP. Don't change ability scores, natural armor or natural weapon damage.
So say you had a Gargantuan Mech, it's 1d10 Built-Ins become 4d8 and your Familiar uses 2d8 or about 9 damage per attack if they hit. More if you use Mighty which isn't a "stat mod".

I had a post related to this in the Phantasy Star game and my post observed that a Familiar copies the Hyperdimensional Storage upgrade allowing it to take Arsenal. So if you're level 14 pick up some Large Rectangular Launchers. since there is no clarification how to advance dice oddities, favorably it comes out to 18d8+[250% DexMod]*2, @+10 Dex & Mightyx8 that's 122 per shot. It's a lot but when you get into Evocation, and good Spells to which the Arcane Pilot has none, Familiars are pretty handy for multiplying your damage anyway. They come with the downside of XP lose if they die through so it's like dialing Glass Cannon up to eleven.

The real break point if you go this route though is that the Arcane Pilot can snag multiple Familiars. Extra FamiliarDragon280 is the only other method that can do this outside of other homebrew. And as you can expect, things get about as silly as a White Raven Specialist with Leadership.

So it's based on the built-in Super Robot weapons? (also, keep in mind that it says the size change doesn't affect the weapon damage)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 21, 2016, 05:52:22 PM
So it's based on the built-in Super Robot weapons? (also, keep in mind that it says the size change doesn't affect the weapon damage)
That's for Minimization only.
Quote
Growth: The super robot becomes one size category larger, gaining all standard advantages and penalties except ability score changes, and its Natural armor bonus only increases by 1. This can only be taken once for every 4 pilot levels. You cannot pick this if you picked Miniaturization.

Miniaturization: The super robot becomes one size category smaller, gaining all standard advantages and penalties except ability score changes, and it's Natural armor and In Built/Arsenal weapons damage doesn't change either. This can only be taken once for every 4 pilot levels, up to diminutive size at 12th pilot level. You cannot pick this if you picked Growth.
All through banning from taking both isn't really that helpful. Spend two upgrade points for +1 NA-AC & +1 Size to Built-Ins? Meh. Arsenal Melee probably dominates anyway.

Also it seems like I misread that -2 Size thing, that's HP only even through Mech's don't gain HP based on Size.
All I can really say is welcome to my world. I've been dealing with things like this for almost four years now.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on October 22, 2016, 03:16:17 PM
A few things.

Mecha buffs and Androids:
Quote
The mecha uses the pilot's base saves, BAB, skill bonuses, feats, and self-buff class abilities for fighting
Is it meant to include racial abilities? Since the classes that grant new weapons are available to the mecha, is an android's integrated technology weapon added to the mecha's built-in weapons? It would only be the arsenal 1, though, as long as it doesn't choose to swap it for one of the mecha's. One With the Machine suggests androids are mostly meant to pilot mechas as otherwise all they get is an arsenal weapon and a penalty. The CAST type is minor.
If racial abilities do not pass to the mecha, is a mecha unaffected by the soulless negative ability?

Cheer/Fortune spirits: Might want to put a limit to it so that someone with, say, Leadership, do not get a huge amount of extra weapons/feats by training his horde and having weak mooks fed to them.
Dream spirit: As written, if someone uses Dream to mimic Gain, Cheer, Gamble and Fortune... they'll keep each effect going until they use Dream to emulate them again. Which is too good considering they'll likely never emulate them again anyway.

Friendship/Devotion relationship feat: Same as Cheer, with a group of minions that keep bringing you back/giving you rerolls and the like.

Arsenal: Any reach weapons in there? Doesn't seem to be any except for the Field Lance, maybe.
Also I see that now that they are increasing with size, optimizing their damage becomes very easy despite the limit set through energy and ammo. Perhaps the damage increase for size should be static for arsenal weapons rather than exponential; A damage increase that is the same for all weapons. That or reducing the high number of dice and the costs. Perhaps. That's the first impression, at least. I'd need a moment to test it out.
I'll probably work on a review of the new Machine discipline when I'm back later this evening.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 22, 2016, 04:41:01 PM
Also I see that now that they are increasing with size, optimizing their damage becomes very easy despite the limit set through energy and ammo. Perhaps the damage increase for size should be static for arsenal weapons rather than exponential
I was thinking of the same thing the other day but there is no easy way to do this.

+X damage per Size increase is the simplest but it doesn't keep up with normal weapons or Built-Ins which use exponential increases. Ideally all choices should be balanced in terms of each other without resorting to banning.

+X per die is also an easy solution but it's one that empowers already powerful weapons to become even more powerful than the weaker ones. For example, @+2/size/die a Huge 6d10 Burst Railgun gains +24 but a 9d8 Heat Rod gets +36 increasing the gap between them from 7.5 to 19.5. You could only use this if you didn't already have a problem with weapon gaps.

A more time consuming solution would be to rebuild the Arsenal table using the expected values. Like if a Longsword deals 6d6 at Colossal, then a Mech's level 1 sword choice should to. Level 2 Arsenal could see the additional of limited attack bonuses and/or new properties to keep up with the ability to enhance normal weapons. But it's important not to go overboard, a lv2 weapon should not be the equivalent of a +4 Sweeping Splitting Dagger to make it appealing. Ols did design some good props and those should be the focus for appeal. Like Power is a unique lower level alternative to Brilliant Energy, Rending is the only way to deal with DR X/-, Pinning is a scaling effect that D&D handles through binary bursts and so on. If you end up exceeding HP expectations, that can simply be made up in one sentence (just tweak the hp formula). And as a side effect, it also further differentiates a none-mech being able to take down mech opponents to promote mech usage over character optimization. Or, stop trying to charge everything with your axe and participate in robot fights! But again, veeerrrryyyy time consuming.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 22, 2016, 04:53:21 PM
That's not character optimisation, that's misreading the fight and being lazy about updating character sheets. :p

Though there's an entire feat based on doing just that.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on October 22, 2016, 06:13:42 PM
Quote
+X damage per Size increase is the simplest but it doesn't keep up with normal weapons or Built-Ins which use exponential increases. Ideally all choices should be balanced in terms of each other without resorting to banning.
I'd recommend keeping it all super simple and avoid everyone having to figure what's the next size (not hard, but still...) by having all size increases progress as if they were a greatsword. No matter the base die.
Normal -> Large = +1d6 dmg
Large -> Huge = +1d6 dmg
Huge -> Gargantuan = +2d6 dmg
Gargantuan -> Colossal = +2d6 dmg

Maybe an extra d6 per increase for heavy weapons. That way weapons with a huge base damage get better with size as well and remain better than the rest without getting blown out of proportions.
The same could apply to Real Robots' built-in weapons if they were to have their sizes changed. Normal weapons remain as is, since they have their own rules and are usually found with a reasonable die-size for their medium-sized base damage.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 22, 2016, 07:59:24 PM
So, if a Battleship Captain/Super Pilot puts main weapon on his main guns, he'll be doing 114d6 damage at level 20 on an Area weapon. Sure, it's Heavy, but that's still absurd
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 22, 2016, 08:52:46 PM
So, if a Battleship Captain/Super Pilot puts main weapon on his main guns, he'll be doing 114d6 damage at level 20 on an Area weapon. Sure, it's Heavy, but that's still absurd
:plotting

Main Beam Cannon 1d12(S)
Size: huge by default. A captain may choose to start with a bigger battleship up to colossal size, but this won't grant any mechanical benefit besides being able to carry more mechas, filling a bigger space and bigger size penalty to AC and attack rolls. This decision may be changed whenever another Ship Captain level is gained.
You mean 20d12 right? Also that only comes out to 98 damage, or 93 after a +10 Modifier with single weapon & Heavy bonuses and Mightyx10 vs a now drastically out scaled 35 DR.

Let's look at the Boost Hammer's 8d8 & Linked for a lv20 Mech-Medium Sized Real Pilot: 424 after DR.
Also 114d6 only deals 399 damage on average, or 364 after DR making it only 85% of melee's old damage.
So while your calculation is inaccurate and better than the rest of the ranged weapons, it still comes up short.
But yes, after Ols's patch to outscale normal weapons the same hammer now deals 2,440 after DR which I think is supposed to be your real point.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 22, 2016, 09:15:36 PM
In my unqualified opinion the system needs a huge rehaul and I got bored.

So I thought of a rough draft for mechanics, but since Ols fears everything looking alike I won't tell you the secrets. Glance at this and tell me which ones totally are copies of uncreative stagnation.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 22, 2016, 09:41:07 PM
So, if a Battleship Captain/Super Pilot puts main weapon on his main guns, he'll be doing 114d6 damage at level 20 on an Area weapon. Sure, it's Heavy, but that's still absurd
:plotting

Main Beam Cannon 1d12(S)
Size: huge by default. A captain may choose to start with a bigger battleship up to colossal size, but this won't grant any mechanical benefit besides being able to carry more mechas, filling a bigger space and bigger size penalty to AC and attack rolls. This decision may be changed whenever another Ship Captain level is gained.
You mean 20d12 right? Also that only comes out to 98 damage, or 93 after a +10 Modifier with single weapon & Heavy bonuses and Mightyx10 vs a now drastically out scaled 35 DR.

Let's look at the Boost Hammer's 8d8 & Linked for a lv20 Mech-Medium Sized Real Pilot: 424 after DR.
Also 114d6 only deals 399 damage on average, or 364 after DR making it only 85% of melee's old damage.
So while your calculation is inaccurate and better than the rest of the ranged weapons, it still comes up short.
But yes, after Ols's patch to outscale normal weapons the same hammer now deals 2,440 after DR which I think is supposed to be your real point.
That's why I specified cross-classing and using a Main Weapon. each instance of the Main Weapon upgrade increase die size by 1, and you can take it 3 times for your Main Weapon
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 22, 2016, 09:54:27 PM
Battleship=Mech?
Nothing in the text seems to support it in the Ship Captain thread.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 22, 2016, 10:00:40 PM
Battleship=Mech?
Nothing in the text seems to support it in the Ship Captain thread.
It's in the introduction

Ship Captain multiclassing with others:

(click to show/hide)
...Reading it again, I did the damage wrong, because you need to take 4 levels of super robot pilot, not 1. It's only 96d6. And while it is less damage, it's an Area weapon, so it can hit a lot more targets
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 23, 2016, 08:02:23 PM
So I've started up a campaign, and is it just me, or is Iron Charge absurd? on a super robot, with no boosts to move speed, that's basically just +6 AC and saves as a stance, with no downsides other than not being in a different stance. if your primary weapon is area? +18 to both. Am I missing something? because those numbers are insane. It should be, at the very best, +1 per 10 Mu, not per 5Mu, or only count displacement, not movement (as it stands, you can move three squares back, then three squares forward, for +6 AC and saves). Maybe cap the bonus at half pilot level?

One more thing about Iron Charge. Is it supposed to be +1 save every 4 Mu? should that be every 5?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 23, 2016, 09:38:42 PM
So I've started up a campaign, and is it just me, or is Iron Charge absurd?
Iron Fury is Dervish's 10th level 1/day capstone about twelve levels earlier and multi-use. And if you're Magic Jar'ed or Mind Switched Unbreakable Will ignores the effect so I guess there is now two of you or maybe it's a temporary switch back (what if your old body was reduced to ashes?). I suppose it's still better than Break the Unbreakable out of Burning Justice. You can just sit in a portable hole on another plane and auto-hit anyone.
*shrugs*
You should try reading Danger Zone's 9th, as long as the weapon you choose uses ammo/energy you can spam it until it's dry. Quick calc would be Colossal lv5 Heavy Beam, 80d8 damage for 1 energy, @+10 ability, Heavy, Mightyx9, add another +48 to that, then of fource you have to work out Energy. 170 base, 180 for Batteryx9, a lv4 Large Generator for +50 more, and a lv2 Generator for +10 more. That's 80d8+48 (408/hit, or assuming DR 40/- 368, four hundred and ten attacks later and you dealt 77,080 damage.

Now use Battle Lust to gain +7,708 Strength for one round and combine it a Linked Brutal weapon, Arsenal or Mech Upgraded (slash ripped has area), and don't forget that +50% bonus for using one type of weapon. [W]+X+5,781 per attack, two attacks per attack action, and at least four attacks for your Full-Round Action and you should easily hit close to fifty thousand damage for your round two follow up.

Which gives you a +5,000 Strength bonus for the next round!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 23, 2016, 09:56:26 PM
Didn't you lecture me about using Sadism with a laser once when I hadn't considered the group thing?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 23, 2016, 11:36:29 PM
Didn't you lecture me about using Sadism with a laser once when I hadn't considered the group thing?
Yep I did.

And if you paid more attention, CKirk pointed out a Maneuver was broken so I pointed out the other two in the same School of the Same level were as well, and then remarked it's still not as bad as another, or this one because here it deals seventy five thousand damage. I'm far some saying it was a good thing.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 23, 2016, 11:45:57 PM
Mostly, it's just that you're making the point more complex than it needs to be. There's something that can do absurd damage in one go, sure, but...

Effects that benefit hugely from doing damage are a separate kettle of fish entirely. Seems odd to not stick to the one point (maneuver has out of hand damage) when there's so many things in the system that a single effect with uncapped scaling is all sorts of trouble anyway .
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 24, 2016, 12:35:27 AM
Mostly, it's just that you're making the point more complex than it needs to be. There's something that can do absurd damage in one go, sure, but...

Effects that benefit hugely from doing damage are a separate kettle of fish entirely. Seems odd to not stick to the one point (maneuver has out of hand damage) when there's so many things in the system that a single effect with uncapped scaling is all sorts of trouble anyway .
I just brought up a very simplified point that lv5 Colossal Arsenal melee weapon deals 80d8 and can be linked to double the attacks if you have lv6 access less than 10 posts ago and it's on this very page.  :eh

Have you ever stopped to consider I'm not using to many words or I'm not using complex figures?
I'd guess probably not, because we know that that in-sin-u-ates.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 24, 2016, 01:25:29 AM
Random musings: I was thinking about removing energy progression and standardizing costs, since right now energy reserves scale pretty quickly but energy costs don't scale at all. Make energy work more like how arsenal costs work right now. Anyone has thoughts on it?

What's the damage die on an Arcane Pilot's familiar pods?
Same as the "parent" super robot.

Also, the Arcane Pilot's Favored Spell class feature says it improves their maneuvers. I'm going to assume that meant spells?
Correct, fixed.

A few things.

Mecha buffs and Androids:
Quote
The mecha uses the pilot's base saves, BAB, skill bonuses, feats, and self-buff class abilities for fighting
Is it meant to include racial abilities? Since the classes that grant new weapons are available to the mecha, is an android's integrated technology weapon added to the mecha's built-in weapons? It would only be the arsenal 1, though, as long as it doesn't choose to swap it for one of the mecha's. One With the Machine suggests androids are mostly meant to pilot mechas as otherwise all they get is an arsenal weapon and a penalty. The CAST type is minor.
If racial abilities do not pass to the mecha, is a mecha unaffected by the soulless negative ability?
Racial abilities pass to the mecha. Although I would disagree with "CAST type is minor" since it's pretty much the same as warforged and warforged are one of the most popular 3.5 races.

Cheer/Fortune spirits: Might want to put a limit to it so that someone with, say, Leadership, do not get a huge amount of extra weapons/feats by training his horde and having weak mooks fed to them.
Good point, added non-stacking.

Dream spirit: As written, if someone uses Dream to mimic Gain, Cheer, Gamble and Fortune... they'll keep each effect going until they use Dream to emulate them again. Which is too good considering they'll likely never emulate them again anyway.
Added that they end if you Dream again.

Friendship/Devotion relationship feat: Same as Cheer, with a group of minions that keep bringing you back/giving you rerolls and the like.
Well that's actually intended to promote "kill the mooks first/simultaneously!".

Arsenal: Any reach weapons in there? Doesn't seem to be any except for the Field Lance, maybe.
No reach. It's kinda of a clunky mechanic to begin with and not really in the spirit of mecha.

Also I see that now that they are increasing with size, optimizing their damage becomes very easy despite the limit set through energy and ammo. Perhaps the damage increase for size should be static for arsenal weapons rather than exponential; A damage increase that is the same for all weapons. That or reducing the high number of dice and the costs. Perhaps. That's the first impression, at least. I'd need a moment to test it out.
I'll probably work on a review of the new Machine discipline when I'm back later this evening.
Quote
+X damage per Size increase is the simplest but it doesn't keep up with normal weapons or Built-Ins which use exponential increases. Ideally all choices should be balanced in terms of each other without resorting to banning.
I'd recommend keeping it all super simple and avoid everyone having to figure what's the next size (not hard, but still...) by having all size increases progress as if they were a greatsword. No matter the base die.
Normal -> Large = +1d6 dmg
Large -> Huge = +1d6 dmg
Huge -> Gargantuan = +2d6 dmg
Gargantuan -> Colossal = +2d6 dmg

Maybe an extra d6 per increase for heavy weapons. That way weapons with a huge base damage get better with size as well and remain better than the rest without getting blown out of proportions.
The same could apply to Real Robots' built-in weapons if they were to have their sizes changed. Normal weapons remain as is, since they have their own rules and are usually found with a reasonable die-size for their medium-sized base damage.
That sounds good, added it to the Index. Thanks!


So, if a Battleship Captain/Super Pilot puts main weapon on his main guns, he'll be doing 114d6 damage at level 20 on an Area weapon. Sure, it's Heavy, but that's still absurd
With the new sizing rules that should be less crazy.

So I've started up a campaign, and is it just me, or is Iron Charge absurd? on a super robot, with no boosts to move speed, that's basically just +6 AC and saves as a stance, with no downsides other than not being in a different stance. if your primary weapon is area? +18 to both. Am I missing something? because those numbers are insane. It should be, at the very best, +1 per 10 Mu, not per 5Mu, or only count displacement, not movement (as it stands, you can move three squares back, then three squares forward, for +6 AC and saves). Maybe cap the bonus at half pilot level?

One more thing about Iron Charge. Is it supposed to be +1 save every 4 Mu? should that be every 5?
Nerfed it to +1 AC/saves per 15 mu moved in a straight line and only triggers out of basic movement.

So I've started up a campaign, and is it just me, or is Iron Charge absurd?
Iron Fury is Dervish's 10th level 1/day capstone about twelve levels earlier and multi-use. And if you're Magic Jar'ed or Mind Switched Unbreakable Will ignores the effect so I guess there is now two of you or maybe it's a temporary switch back (what if your old body was reduced to ashes?). I suppose it's still better than Break the Unbreakable out of Burning Justice. You can just sit in a portable hole on another plane and auto-hit anyone.
*shrugs*
You should try reading Danger Zone's 9th, as long as the weapon you choose uses ammo/energy you can spam it until it's dry. Quick calc would be Colossal lv5 Heavy Beam, 80d8 damage for 1 energy, @+10 ability, Heavy, Mightyx9, add another +48 to that, then of fource you have to work out Energy. 170 base, 180 for Batteryx9, a lv4 Large Generator for +50 more, and a lv2 Generator for +10 more. That's 80d8+48 (408/hit, or assuming DR 40/- 368, four hundred and ten attacks later and you dealt 77,080 damage.

Now use Battle Lust to gain +7,708 Strength for one round and combine it a Linked Brutal weapon, Arsenal or Mech Upgraded (slash ripped has area), and don't forget that +50% bonus for using one type of weapon. [W]+X+5,781 per attack, two attacks per attack action, and at least four attacks for your Full-Round Action and you should easily hit close to fifty thousand damage for your round two follow up.

Which gives you a +5,000 Strength bonus for the next round!
Nerfed Iron Fury and Battle Lust as well.

3.You still didn't adress the part where the mundane weapons have a much worst acuraccy.
That's easy enough.

Repeating the examples from before, blowing 19 Upgrade Points & 75 Arsenal a Super Mech can get 43+Dex AC. His opponent spends 8 Upgrade Points and 25 Arsenal points to counter and even using a nonmagical weapon with no Feats or Class Features added in has a 65% chance to hit and I purposely avoided bringing in magic because someone didn't like my Splitting example else where and called it broken.
65% chance.
At 20 mu range.
For the first shot.

The railgun can actually reliably shoot things further away than they can just step closer and punch you. The colossal crossbow is a glorified melee weapon with a bit more reach.

But then there is this.
You can't enchant your mecha's weapons/plating. I'll specify that later in the intro if it's not clear enough yet.
Which of course does not affect normal weapons. The Enhancement Bonus cost is the same on a Colossal+++ weapon as it is on a Fine--- weapon, the only thing that changes is the Masterwork fee which can be bypassed with stuff like Magic Weapon, or Minor Schemas of Weapon Augmentation or Concurrent Infusions, or Hilted Wands of Wraithstrike. So honestly Mech weapons are not the only thing with bonuses to attack.
But the mech wapon attack bonus is in-built. You don't need to spend actions/WBL/feats, and can spend those resources in other more interesting stuff And even weapon enhancement only goes up to +5 to attack rolls pre-epic, whereas the high level arsenal weapons can have over +10 bonus.

More in particular, you can ditch a mecha weapon and get a replacement fast and easy out of combat. But if your pimped repeating crossbow gets, say,  disarmed, you need to make a priority recovering it. And you're stuck with it for a lot of levels.

Likewise, since a majority of that 43 AC comes from Dodge bonuses (agilityx8 & bio sensor) you can use the Natch System to remove them, reducing your target's optimized AC by at least twelve points. It's one of the reasons I spammed it on Bahamut at the start of the Phantasy Star campaign even through the modifier was pretty low, if you roll badly on Spot it meant I would hit with anything anyway.
That goes for both weapons. It just means the railgun can reliably snipe you from even further away.

4. That's a little extreme tilted, I'm just talking about narrowing the wide dots like one Arsenal level gives a +0 increase to ranged damage while another Arsenal level gives almost +100 to melee. That's a pretty wide margin and you don't have to move to a Point Buy system to fix it, just trim the dice averages a little closer together and maybe try to compensate for Rending's ability to ignore half the target's DR. This also directly correlates with #6 because in your near random figures you've produced a problem that ranged Arsenal weapons don't really serve much use.
Maybe that's just me, but I believe ranged weapons purpose is to fight at range, not close in to 20 mu to have slightly better than 50% odds at hitting your targets. However I can't push their damage too high or melee mechas get blown up before they ever get a chance to close in.

Which speaking of, did you catch the edit to explain how you want the dice to progress?[/i]

I choose how I want the dice to progress around here, thank you very much.

A more time consuming solution would be to rebuild the Arsenal table using the expected values. Like if a Longsword deals 6d6 at Colossal, then a Mech's level 1 sword choice should to.
Barring shenigans, you can never afford a colossal longsword at level 1.

Level 2 Arsenal could see the additional of limited attack bonuses and/or new properties to keep up with the ability to enhance normal weapons.
In case I still didn't make it clear enough, fiddly weapon customization can go die in a black hole for this project. Mechas regularly discard and swap weapons like normal people swap socks. Spending half your resources into a single one will not be an option.

In my unqualified opinion the system needs a huge rehaul and I got bored.

So I thought of a rough draft for mechanics, but since Ols fears everything looking alike I won't tell you the secrets. Glance at this and tell me which ones totally are copies of uncreative stagnation.

Weapons with zero special properties, cheap pulp fiction jokes, null cost values and thus no way to determine how many a mecha can carry, extra resource accounting, new borked ability, no.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on October 24, 2016, 02:32:30 AM
Sound. Thanks for your thoroughness.

Quote
"CAST type is minor" since it's pretty much the same as warforged and warforged are one of the most popular 3.5 races.
Thought the immunities it does get were denied as well. Didn't see it right. Never mind!

Quote
Quote
Friendship/Devotion relationship feat: Same as Cheer, with a group of minions that keep bringing you back/giving you rerolls and the like.
Well that's actually intended to promote "kill the mooks first/simultaneously!".
That might be pretty hard considering they don't even have to be there. They can take turns using it while miles away in their homes since they don't even require being close or even seeing the fight.

Even with proximity rules, they could be standing about in plain sight among other civilians and watching the fight. Can't start a witch-hunt in the middle of a fight so you're mostly stuck with indiscriminate slaughter.
I don't see a way to stop abusing this that doesn't involve a cooldown between applications. One 2nd effect per round and one 3rd effect per minute or somesuch. There's certainly another ways to deal with it but as is it is way too easy. Or then everyone gets a hundred minion spammers and the fights never end.

Quote
Random musings: I was thinking about removing energy progression and standardizing costs, since right now energy reserves scale pretty quickly but energy costs don't scale at all. Make energy work more like how arsenal costs work right now. Anyone has thoughts on it?
Tricky. Something to consider... would removing all extra reactor options be a bad thing? Or perhaps increasing the recovery cost of the maneuvers to make them harder to spam.
Getting more energy already increases the amount recovered every round, so having enough energy is still possible to those that invest in it while making it harder to manage for those who don't. Maybe coupled with lower energy gains if you want to make it harder to manage.
The maneuver's energy-based recovery otherwise has to be revamped with your suggested standardization. If you do bring it to every maneuver's recovery costing the same, however, you may have to bring back the readied maneuvers since the resource per level is no longer linked to their power (since having acces to everything known like a sorcerer is no longer limited by higher costs for strongest stuff).
I'd say go for standardization since many low-level maneuvers scale and having to get the costs to account for it (such as they do with psionic powers) is too much of a hassle.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 24, 2016, 05:06:33 AM
Quote
Quote
Friendship/Devotion relationship feat: Same as Cheer, with a group of minions that keep bringing you back/giving you rerolls and the like.
Well that's actually intended to promote "kill the mooks first/simultaneously!".
That might be pretty hard considering they don't even have to be there. They can take turns using it while miles away in their homes since they don't even require being close or even seeing the fight.
Actually they do, since you can't take immediate actions if flat-footed.

Even with proximity rules, they could be standing about in plain sight among other civilians and watching the fight. Can't start a witch-hunt in the middle of a fight so you're mostly stuck with indiscriminate slaughter.
That's surprisingly appropriate for the mecha genre. Either make sure to evacuate the civilians or you need to butcher everything that moves just to be sure.

I don't see a way to stop abusing this that doesn't involve a cooldown between applications. One 2nd effect per round and one 3rd effect per minute or somesuch. There's certainly another ways to deal with it but as is it is way too easy. Or then everyone gets a hundred minion spammers and the fights never end.
If you have a hundred minion spammer that can you can customise the stats for, then it's pretty hard to end the fight even with no relationship feats.

But fair enough, nerfed the third options so that you can only use them if adjacent to your special one.

Quote
Random musings: I was thinking about removing energy progression and standardizing costs, since right now energy reserves scale pretty quickly but energy costs don't scale at all. Make energy work more like how arsenal costs work right now. Anyone has thoughts on it?
Tricky. Something to consider... would removing all extra reactor options be a bad thing? Or perhaps increasing the recovery cost of the maneuvers to make them harder to spam.
Getting more energy already increases the amount recovered every round, so having enough energy is still possible to those that invest in it while making it harder to manage for those who don't. Maybe coupled with lower energy gains if you want to make it harder to manage.
The maneuver's energy-based recovery otherwise has to be revamped with your suggested standardization. If you do bring it to every maneuver's recovery costing the same, however, you may have to bring back the readied maneuvers since the resource per level is no longer linked to their power (since having acces to everything known like a sorcerer is no longer limited by higher costs for strongest stuff).
I'd say go for standardization since many low-level maneuvers scale and having to get the costs to account for it (such as they do with psionic powers) is too much of a hassle.
Basic layout I have in my mind is something along the lines of:
-Base energy is 100. Some robots may have less or more but always on the same scale.
-You only recover 5 energy per round base.
-Arsenal options and super robot upgrades increase that by small increments.
-Maneuvers cost would remain the same. So a 9th level maneuver (45 energy) eats almost half your base energy while a 1st level maneuver (5 energy) can be spammed every round.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on October 24, 2016, 05:12:39 AM
But then how do I nova my energy reserves with 2-4 maneuvers in a single round!?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 24, 2016, 05:25:15 AM
Preventing nova of max-level maneuvers would be an intended effect.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on October 24, 2016, 06:49:31 AM
Well I'm just saying a base energy of 100 utterly murders the moon vanguard's recovery mechanic when the regen rate starts at 5 and sounds to barely increase beyond. Not to mention when combined with Main Weapon super upgrades and that each square of flight would then cost 5% of your total energy. Fly ten spaces and suddenly you're at half energy and you can almost forget being capable of actually moving more than a double move without dropping out of the sky like a rock and that's before counting energy costs of maneuvers and/or extra energy costs of maneuvers than also provide free action movement.

On the upside, it would incredibly devalue the necessity and overpoweredness of the Zeal Spirit  :smirk
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 24, 2016, 07:28:40 AM
Flight movement would be adjusted to 1 energy per 5 mu of course.

Moon Vanguard recovery actually pulls ahead before 5th level maneuvers. Low level ones would be dirt cheap to recover when you have 100 energy. Only by 6th-9th you need to pay more, and then you'll have 6+ maneuvers readied which don't need energy to be used the first time. And then  a Moon Vanguard would also have Overdrive System at least 2 times per day.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 24, 2016, 08:33:56 AM
If energy regen is that tight, it sounds like readied maneuvers are going to give you more opportunity to use even mid-level maneuvers. Let alone counters. Also moving, and in some scenarios normal attacks.

Also, reminder that two of the arsenal options take more than 100 energy per attack. :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 24, 2016, 11:22:06 AM
My only issue that I can see with the new size scaling is that it makes it a little awkward because you have to roll multiple die sizes on your weapon. But that's a minor gripe at best given what it fixes
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 24, 2016, 12:55:12 PM
Random musings: I was thinking about removing energy progression and standardizing costs, since right now energy reserves scale pretty quickly but energy costs don't scale at all. Make energy work more like how arsenal costs work right now. Anyone has thoughts on it?
Energy does need reworked by quite a bit. The weapons go from barely using it, with no notation if it's per hit/missed attack or per round for ambiguity too, to here is a 200 energy antimatter sword, so hope you saved up.

Racial abilities pass to the mecha.
So a Shifter piloting a Mech can grow claws?

Cheer/Fortune spirits: Might want to put a limit to it so that someone with, say, Leadership, do not get a huge amount of extra weapons/feats by training his horde and having weak mooks fed to them.
Good point, added non-stacking.
For the Phantasy Star campaign, given Leadership feeding is not something you'll agree with and how you banned using cost reduction to obtain more items than you should, how do you feel about using followers to feed you all their wealth so you can spend 159k on your character's gear when you should have a 110k limit?

No reach. It's kinda of a clunky mechanic to begin with and not really in the spirit of mecha.
You really have an anti-range stance here :p

That sounds good, added it to the Index. Thanks!
The change to +6d6 for Colossal should nerf a ton of the more recent figures.

I HATE RANGE!
*sigh*

POS bow vs uber optimized AC and you're like nah it's hit rate sucks. No kidding, it didn't spend anything on it's attack. And 20mu range? Actually with hide and wanting to hit 95% on the first attack it's 60mu, 100mu if you spend 150gp on a scope. But more importantly is the fact that these things are comparable which means there is no clear choice that players will ever pick. It's a shame through that Ranged already provokes AoOs, have penalties when shooting into melee, obstacle rules favor melee/flanking, and you purposely added a serve limitation on multi-round usage and reduced damage on top of that. Additionally you're little rant about how you should spend gold on cooler things than weapons is self-defeating becuase maybe I want to spend upgrade points on cool stuff to. But I bring this up because the only way Built-Ins can have all those penalties added is by taking Transform(tank) and also giving up Flight. Jesus, it's not like a melee opponent can't simply charge someone in the first place you don't need to screw Ranged over at every single step. Also Gear dependent? Hi Welcome to D&D and let's add a Mech that if you glue the hatch shut it will piss off a player far more than a disarmed weapon will because you've created a campiagn setting that's more dependant on items than the Power Rangers need morphers. :banghead

It basically just boils down to the whole "I hate you, this topic is a black hole, forget about it" part. SRW the board game includes Gundams which are primarily ranged combatants but I guess you're entirely focused on Mazinger Z or Getter Robo (which ever one is like no guns!). Then you're off thinking the action scene of the underdog shooting people to steal their guns to shoot more people is far more interesting than how the very media genre you're trying to mimic doesn't do that. They are badass robots and they get unique weapons/traits/decals, underdog weapon swapping is for the loser's crowning moment of achievement which only happens once. And do you know what the irony is? It's not that you can steal a lv7 gun, but no one is going to run around stealing guns in the first place like you imagine them to because your guns suck so bad the only thing PCs are going to steal is a melee weapon, if it's better, and keep it forever.

I feel you are mechanically pushing people towards one choice even through you claim you don't want that. I also feel like you pushing irrelevant themes that are not in the mimicked material. I also feel like the homebrew is all over the place and needs a ton of work with some ridiculously borked traits in it that give me stuff like off handed examples of seventy thousand damage to use as a point when I feel like it. But, you just don't want to hear about so w/e. I've lost my urge to give a fuck.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on October 24, 2016, 02:41:35 PM
I just realized I misremembered flight costs and they're already 1 per 5mu so my point is moot goodbye :v
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 25, 2016, 01:10:07 PM
Energy overhaul applied across the board. Let me know if I missed something.

Also most arsenal options got a bunch of built-in penalties.

If energy regen is that tight, it sounds like readied maneuvers are going to give you more opportunity to use even mid-level maneuvers. Let alone counters. Also moving, and in some scenarios normal attacks.

Also, reminder that two of the arsenal options take more than 100 energy per attack. :lmao

Yeah, weapon energy costs were also overhauled.

Racial abilities pass to the mecha.
So a Shifter piloting a Mech can grow claws?
Yes. Not sure if they're still worth it.

Cheer/Fortune spirits: Might want to put a limit to it so that someone with, say, Leadership, do not get a huge amount of extra weapons/feats by training his horde and having weak mooks fed to them.
Good point, added non-stacking.
For the Phantasy Star campaign, given Leadership feeding is not something you'll agree with and how you banned using cost reduction to obtain more items than you should, how do you feel about using followers to feed you all their wealth so you can spend 159k on your character's gear when you should have a 110k limit?
No.

No reach. It's kinda of a clunky mechanic to begin with and not really in the spirit of mecha.
You really have an anti-range stance here :p
The irony since reach weapons make it harder to 5-feet step away to fire safer.

POS bow vs uber optimized AC and you're like nah it's hit rate sucks. No kidding, it didn't spend anything on it's attack. And 20mu range? Actually with hide and wanting to hit 95% on the first attack it's 60mu, 100mu if you spend 150gp on a scope. But more importantly is the fact that these things are comparable which means there is no clear choice that players will ever pick. It's a shame through that Ranged already provokes AoOs, have penalties when shooting into melee, obstacle rules favor melee/flanking, and you purposely added a serve limitation on multi-round usage and reduced damage on top of that. Additionally you're little rant about how you should spend gold on cooler things than weapons is self-defeating becuase maybe I want to spend upgrade points on cool stuff to. But I bring this up because the only way Built-Ins can have all those penalties added is by taking Transform(tank) and also giving up Flight. Jesus, it's not like a melee opponent can't simply charge someone in the first place you don't need to screw Ranged over at every single step. Also Gear dependent? Hi Welcome to D&D and let's add a Mech that if you glue the hatch shut it will piss off a player far more than a disarmed weapon will because you've created a campiagn setting that's more dependant on items than the Power Rangers need morphers. :banghead
Well if it's one of the reasons I added the tac feats that allow a super to summon their ride and the real to call mook machines that they can commandeer.


It basically just boils down to the whole "I hate you, this topic is a black hole, forget about it" part. SRW the board game includes Gundams which are primarily ranged combatants but I guess you're entirely focused on Mazinger Z or Getter Robo (which ever one is like no guns!).
Double irony since Getter has a machine gun and Mazinkaizer SKL dual-wields pistols.

Gundams on the other hand get more than their share of kills in melee. Heck, the more recent gundam animes, Iron Blooded Orphans, Unicorn and Thunderbolt, all have their climatic battles end with "Drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword/fist."

And the only recorded instance of a Zaku II (aka basic "evil grunt") defeating a Gundam was by a pilot managing to get close enough to hit them with their heat axe. Because the Zaku II's basic machine gun and even the rocket launcher never managed to do anything more than scratch a Gundam's paint even when wielded by named ace pilots.

Then you're off thinking the action scene of the underdog shooting people to steal their guns to shoot more people is far more interesting than how the very media genre you're trying to mimic doesn't do that. They are badass robots and they get unique weapons/traits/decals, underdog weapon swapping is for the loser's crowning moment of achievement which only happens once. And do you know what the irony is? It's not that you can steal a lv7 gun, but no one is going to run around stealing guns in the first place like you imagine them to because your guns suck so bad the only thing PCs are going to steal is a melee weapon, if it's better, and keep it forever.

I feel you are mechanically pushing people towards one choice even through you claim you don't want that. I also feel like you pushing irrelevant themes that are not in the mimicked material. I also feel like the homebrew is all over the place and needs a ton of work with some ridiculously borked traits in it that give me stuff like off handed examples of seventy thousand damage to use as a point when I feel like it. But, you just don't want to hear about so w/e. I've lost my urge to give a fuck.

Indeed, I'm not that interested in listening about how the secondary arsenal weapons that super robots get on a delayed progression to start with may or may not be less efficient that bizzarre combinations of other weapon creation rules.

I'm however quite interested in fixing clearly broken stuff like the broken maneuvers/stances and crazy weapon size scaling mentioned, which I've done so, and you indeed don't give a fuck for that, although you gave a lot of fucks rambling about wanting to make melee obsolete by mooks being able to focus fire the PCs at mega range with easily accessible uber guns (which is kinda what happened at the first battle of the campaign, third irony), and you were still editing your post hours later. If you had ever given a single fuck about fair mecha ranged combat, you would've worried first about the base ranged weapons on the real robots, not the optional arsenal ones.

In related news, non-mecha weapons now deal minimum damage against mecha and vice-versa.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 25, 2016, 01:31:17 PM

Double irony since Getter has a machine gun and Mazinkaizer SKL dual-wields pistols.

Gundams on the other hand get more than their share of kills in melee. Heck, the more recent gundam animes, Iron Blooded Orphans, Unicorn and Thunderbolt, all have their climatic battles end with "Drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword/fist."

And the only recorded instance of a Zaku II (aka basic "evil grunt") defeating a Gundam was by a pilot managing to get close enough to hit them with their heat axe. Because the Zaku II's basic machine gun and even the rocket launcher never managed to do anything more than scratch a Gundam's paint even when wielded by named ace pilots.


I think the point is that you can't give Getter its machine gun, nor Mazinkaiser SKL its pistols, nor Dancouga any of its multitude of guns, etc....
And while sure, Gundams have some awesome melee....Unicorn's Beam Magnum is much stronger than any of its melee weapons, and the majority of lead gundams (barring Exia/00/Quan[T], Barbatos, and the GBF leads) are primarily ranged. Wing's Buster Rifle, Zeta's Hi Mega Launcher, Double Zeta's High Mega Cannon, F91's VSBRs, Nu's Fin Funnels (which are admittedly available), Freedom/Strike Freedom's absurd quantity of ranged weapons...
If anything, if you want to show those awesome Gundam finales, you should make ranged strong, and then make Sunder a powerful option, because that's what usually happens.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 25, 2016, 03:55:34 PM
The irony since reach weapons make it harder to 5-feet step away to fire safer.
That's not how you use the word irony.

Irony is counter to expectations or what is appropriate. Since my stance is Ranged=Melee, the inherent flaws in Ranged that were designed to make it equal to it are expected and appropriate. An example of ironic be about how you think resources should be spent on cool stuff and PCs should not be gear dependent.
Well if it's one of the reasons I added the tac feats that allow a super to summon their ride and the real to call mook machines that they can commandeer.
But you require PCs to spend their Feat Slot resources in order to lessen the threats of something taking their required gear away.

Instead of irony you should use coincidentally, like this:
Quote
Double irony since Getter has a machine gun and Mazinkaizer SKL dual-wields pistols.
So coincidentally, you're crapping on all three of the franchises instead of one.

Language aside I think we all figured out in your last post what your definition of fix means. Like when I pointed out ranged arsenal was behind every other option so you "fixed" it by widening the gap. And now here recently you're newest patch was to remove the option to use gold as a means, so the only semi-decent ranged weapon is obtained by spending a couple dozen upgrade points on a Super Robot's Tank Mode, at least until you nerf that some more too. And somehow, all this time you've known Real Pilot's ranged choice are even worse and you still don't care. Instead the only thing you want to focus on is how I didn't memorize all thirty ambiguous and self cross-referencing threads so you can claim I don't really care.

Well, once upon a time I did care enough to crunch over a dozen numbers that you never cared to do.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 25, 2016, 04:06:09 PM
Something I've just noticed. With the energy rework, you didn't change the cost on Funnels, so now it's even harder to use 'em effectively. I dunno if this is intentional or not.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 25, 2016, 04:37:14 PM
Eh, irony can be used in so many ways nowadays. Isn't language evolution fun?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on October 25, 2016, 09:08:18 PM
About the Energy revamp

In case it wasn't meant to be, the multiclassing rules still grant increases to energy per class level.
The Einst Queen infiltrator has scaling energy as well (including its multiclassing options) along with the old energy recovery (though it'd be more limited in that department).
The Super Pilot still has energy increases with its super upgrades (though that may be supposed to be an alternative to Arsenal options).
I'll update the Engineer based on what seems to be the norm between the two across their progression.

In case that the Real Pilot and Super Pilot are meant to have energy increase options, the Ship Captain is then very limited in that department; I've a hard time imagining it doing much in a fight with its main cannon costing 50 energy and trying to use its maneuvers on top of it all. Along with flying around. It has enough arsenal space to have one reactor quality or more energy, but with the default recovery being at 5 per round a reactor is almost mandatory to do anything.
For the Main Cannon, maybe it'd be cool to have its energy cost be based on its number of base damage die, you could lower its damage for lower energy costs, which could lead to 'charging the lazzer' for a max-power shot.

The Main weapon now costing a whoopin' 10 energy per attack per pick of the upgrade suddenly makes it anything but a main weapon. It suddenly becomes the one you try to use the most sparingly since it empties your energy reserve. Except perhaps for a heavy weapon for maximum effect on multiple targets with a single attack. With 3 picks making it 30 energy per attack... I'll just note I didn't consider the second and third pick of Main to be worth their energy cost and now that the energy pool is reduced along with the energy increases, I'm not sure why anyone would consider them except perhaps to combine with a spirit/effect that guarantees a critical hit... M'yeah.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 25, 2016, 11:07:50 PM

Double irony since Getter has a machine gun and Mazinkaizer SKL dual-wields pistols.

Gundams on the other hand get more than their share of kills in melee. Heck, the more recent gundam animes, Iron Blooded Orphans, Unicorn and Thunderbolt, all have their climatic battles end with "Drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword/fist."

And the only recorded instance of a Zaku II (aka basic "evil grunt") defeating a Gundam was by a pilot managing to get close enough to hit them with their heat axe. Because the Zaku II's basic machine gun and even the rocket launcher never managed to do anything more than scratch a Gundam's paint even when wielded by named ace pilots.


I think the point is that you can't give Getter its machine gun, nor Mazinkaiser SKL its pistols, nor Dancouga any of its multitude of guns, etc....
But you can, just pick arsenal and take your picks. Sure they're not going to be boss-finishers, but that was never their purpose to begin with. Mazinkaiser/Getter/Dancounga use guns to either clear away mooks that aren't worth spending energy on or wear down bigger enemies at range before getting close enough for rip and tear.

And while sure, Gundams have some awesome melee....Unicorn's Beam Magnum is much stronger than any of its melee weapons, and the majority of lead gundams (barring Exia/00/Quan[T], Barbatos, and the GBF leads) are primarily ranged. Wing's Buster Rifle, Zeta's Hi Mega Launcher, Double Zeta's High Mega Cannon, F91's VSBRs, Nu's Fin Funnels (which are admittedly available), Freedom/Strike Freedom's absurd quantity of ranged weapons...
If anything, if you want to show those awesome Gundam finales, you should make ranged strong, and then make Sunder a powerful option, because that's what usually happens.
Remind me, what gundam series had the big bad finished by one of the supposedly super ranged weapons?

(click to show/hide)

Main point is, even in the gundam series ranged weapons are mostly for clearing away nameless faceless mooks, while important enemies shrugg off all sorts of guns like a boss before getting stabbed about 99% of the time.

As for sundering, yes it's a common theme in giant robot shows, however from a gaming perspective, it would mean players pretty much need to go restock to a base after every battle to replace destroyed weapons. That's why I added the Disarming property, allowing you to remove weapons that can be easily replaced after the battle is over.

Although I'm all ears, how would such an "easy sunder" system work? First guy to win initiative blows up the other dude's biggest weapon and whoever goes second is left running a losing battle as both their damage potential and HP have been crippled and they can't recover their damage potential? Or just make ranged weapons super easy to sunder while melee ones are more durable?

Something I've just noticed. With the energy rework, you didn't change the cost on Funnels, so now it's even harder to use 'em effectively. I dunno if this is intentional or not.
Missed it, standardized to 5 energy per round, thanks!

About the Energy revamp

In case it wasn't meant to be, the multiclassing rules still grant increases to energy per class level.
The Einst Queen infiltrator has scaling energy as well (including its multiclassing options) along with the old energy recovery (though it'd be more limited in that department).
The Super Pilot still has energy increases with its super upgrades (though that may be supposed to be an alternative to Arsenal options).
Thanks as well, removed the multiclassing leftovers and updated Einst queen as well.
Super robot energy upgrade remaining is intended has supers usually have more energy. The bonus has been halved though.

In case that the Real Pilot and Super Pilot are meant to have energy increase options, the Ship Captain is then very limited in that department; I've a hard time imagining it doing much in a fight with its main cannon costing 50 energy and trying to use its maneuvers on top of it all. Along with flying around. It has enough arsenal space to have one reactor quality or more energy, but with the default recovery being at 5 per round a reactor is almost mandatory to do anything.
For the Main Cannon, maybe it'd be cool to have its energy cost be based on its number of base damage die, you could lower its damage for lower energy costs, which could lead to 'charging the lazzer' for a max-power shot.
Reduced energy beam cannon cost to 15. "Charging my lazzors" is something that's already represented by using either spirits/maneuvers or the super robot's upgrade.

The Main weapon now costing a whoopin' 10 energy per attack per pick of the upgrade suddenly makes it anything but a main weapon. It suddenly becomes the one you try to use the most sparingly since it empties your energy reserve. Except perhaps for a heavy weapon for maximum effect on multiple targets with a single attack. With 3 picks making it 30 energy per attack... I'll just note I didn't consider the second and third pick of Main to be worth their energy cost and now that the energy pool is reduced along with the energy increases, I'm not sure why anyone would consider them except perhaps to combine with a spirit/effect that guarantees a critical hit... M'yeah.
Reduced energy cost to 5 per increase.

Still, as pointed out earlier one of the purposes is to promote the use of different weapons. So a gundam uses their vulkans to clear away minor nuissances, the beam rifle to shoot down those half-decent zakus and pulls out the beam saber for big baddies. Sometimes he carried around his own rocket launcher or a hammer and sometimes he just tears stuff apart with its hands.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on October 25, 2016, 11:11:49 PM
Jeebus, Main Weapon costs 10 energy per rank per swing now!? So rank 2 is 20 per swing then? Fck that you could literally never use it. And God help you if you try to main weapon a twin linked weapon for TWF. You already have to pay double energy, basically, to use maneuvers with a main weapon when that maneuver grants multiple attacks. Gosh.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 25, 2016, 11:29:23 PM
Main weapon it's been updated to 5 energy per rank. Base you can get 20 swings. Rank 2 you can get 10 swings and rank 3 you can get 6 swings. Before max energy upgrades.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on October 26, 2016, 12:58:57 AM
That's....wow that's terrible. How is that a Main Weapon now? Your main weapon is one that you always use the most and can always rely on. That on top of the incredibly reduced max energy values and the even more butchered energy regen and the awesome amount of methods the SRW system has for getting additional actions and attacks and move above the normal, all of which also need energy expended on them on top of the general maneuver costs and I'm starting to find this overhaul unplayable in any sort of casual means and that's just in regards to the new rules for Energy ~.~

This is going to be like completely making a new character soon when the level up comes around in Phantasy Star.....


I get that weapon swapping may be a sort of thing in mecha animes, but in D&D you generally have little need or want to bother switching weapons except when one stops working or when you have another that'd work better on a particular opponent. I get we're trying to emulate mecha animes here, but we're also D&D at the core of it with all this  :-\
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 26, 2016, 01:22:02 AM
As for sundering, yes it's a common theme in giant robot shows, however from a gaming perspective, it would mean players pretty much need to go restock to a base after every battle to replace destroyed weapons. That's why I added the Disarming property, allowing you to remove weapons that can be easily replaced after the battle is over.

Although I'm all ears, how would such an "easy sunder" system work? First guy to win initiative blows up the other dude's biggest weapon and whoever goes second is left running a losing battle as both their damage potential and HP have been crippled and they can't recover their damage potential? Or just make ranged weapons super easy to sunder while melee ones are more durable?

I'm not really sure. the first thing that comes to mind is that sundering is easier vs low HP targets, so you get that whole "shooting at each other until the ranged weapons get blown up" effect that you see in so many gundam shows.

Also, while final bosses rarely get scrapped by ranged weapons, that doesn't change the fact that their first resort is ranged weapons. That means they must have some reason to stay at range even if they could more easily destroy their targets in melee. That's...not really represented here. With things like Engine Overload, it's trivial to get into melee on round one, and with melee weapons so much better, there's very little reason not to. The exceptions are the built in weapons on some reals...but of the main gundams, the only ones that primarily rely on built in weapons are Freedom/Strike Freedom and Shining/God. Usually it's a rifle or something that any suit could pick up. This is all in the series of course. In the Super Robot Wars games that I'm fairly sure we're all trying to mimic, the list of lead gundams that have melee ultimate moves is: Zeta, the 00 leads, and the G Gundam leads. Every other series lead has, as its strongest attack, a ranged weapon. Double Zeta? High Mega Cannon. Nu? Fin Funnels. Wing/Wing Zero? Buster/Twin Buster Rifle. X/Double X? Satellite Cannons (and even excluding those, their strongest attacks are their beam rifles). Crossbone? Full weapon combination, and barring that, the Peacock Smasher. Strike is iffy because striker packs, but the Agni is typically the strongest of its weapons. Freedom/Strike Freedom? Full Burst mode. Turn A is Moonlight Butterfly of course, but barring that, it's the beam rifle again! Sure, Zeta's is the Waverider Crash, Setsuna is a sword nut, and Domon is a crazy martial artist, but most leads use ranged as their strongest attacks in super robot wars, and that's not something you can do here. (There's also the issue of no vaguely generic reals available to do anything other than an OG campaign, but that's something that the GM is presumably supposed to come up with)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 26, 2016, 08:35:59 AM
Actually, Turn A's second best attack in the games is usually the good old Gundam Hammer and at least in SRWZ he has a twin beam combo between that and Moonlight Butterfly making the rifle the third go-to choice. And at least in SRW J the meteor Freedom's true ultimate attack is a giant beam sword combo with the meteor Justice, while the old strike's most damaging module was the giant sword.

But I get your point, so I've added a new weapon property, Volatile. It gives a 50% chance of the weapon going boom when the mecha suffers damage or they roll a natural 1 on the attack roll, but you can't lose more than 1 volatile weapon each round this way. Added a bunch of new ranged Arsenal weapons whose names may or may not appear familiar with the Volatile property but otherwise have the highest damage values at each tier.

Also added Generic Universal Neo Dynamic Assault Mobile Suits to the real pilot, no built-in weapons or special abilities, but bigger arsenal space, need to spend at least 25% of it on weapons.

That's....wow that's terrible. How is that a Main Weapon now? Your main weapon is one that you always use the most and can always rely on. That on top of the incredibly reduced max energy values and the even more butchered energy regen and the awesome amount of methods the SRW system has for getting additional actions and attacks and move above the normal, all of which also need energy expended on them on top of the general maneuver costs and I'm starting to find this overhaul unplayable in any sort of casual means and that's just in regards to the new rules for Energy ~.~

This is going to be like completely making a new character soon when the level up comes around in Phantasy Star.....


I get that weapon swapping may be a sort of thing in mecha animes, but in D&D you generally have little need or want to bother switching weapons except when one stops working or when you have another that'd work better on a particular opponent. I get we're trying to emulate mecha animes here, but we're also D&D at the core of it with all this  :-\
Ok, removed the main weapon energy cost completely.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Rekmond on October 26, 2016, 10:31:46 AM
Ugh, I get that this system apparently needed a lot of rework but dang. I only got done making my Moon Vanguard the other week.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 26, 2016, 10:34:29 AM
But I get your point, so I've added a new weapon property, Volatile. It gives a 50% chance of the weapon going boom when the mecha suffers damage or they roll a natural 1 on the attack roll, but you can't lose more than 1 volatile weapon each round this way. Added a bunch of new ranged Arsenal weapons whose names may or may not appear familiar with the Volatile property but otherwise have the highest damage values at each tier.

Also added Generic Universal Neo Dynamic Assault Mobile Suits to the real pilot, no built-in weapons or special abilities, but bigger arsenal space, need to spend at least 25% of it on weapons.

Awesome! This fixes pretty much all of the issues I had with this :)


That said, I just noticed that Machinery Warriors still get EN scaling with level. Is this intentional? (I could see it being intentional, because they're supposed to have super endurance, but I want to make sure)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on October 27, 2016, 01:33:57 AM
Speaking of the Machinery Warrior, I've always wondered; since both the pilot and the mecha gain the regeneration quality, if an android uses One with the Machine, doesn't that technically grant a double regeneration effect to the mecha, (the regen of the mecha itself + the regen of the pilot) since effects that heal either heal the mecha?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 27, 2016, 05:11:30 AM
Added Showtime Star, the Gun Maniac tac feat plus Cyber Newtype, Innovade and Coordinator feats.

But I get your point, so I've added a new weapon property, Volatile. It gives a 50% chance of the weapon going boom when the mecha suffers damage or they roll a natural 1 on the attack roll, but you can't lose more than 1 volatile weapon each round this way. Added a bunch of new ranged Arsenal weapons whose names may or may not appear familiar with the Volatile property but otherwise have the highest damage values at each tier.

Also added Generic Universal Neo Dynamic Assault Mobile Suits to the real pilot, no built-in weapons or special abilities, but bigger arsenal space, need to spend at least 25% of it on weapons.

Awesome! This fixes pretty much all of the issues I had with this :)


That said, I just noticed that Machinery Warriors still get EN scaling with level. Is this intentional? (I could see it being intentional, because they're supposed to have super endurance, but I want to make sure)

Yes, but was too high, lowered it down.

Speaking of the Machinery Warrior, I've always wondered; since both the pilot and the mecha gain the regeneration quality, if an android uses One with the Machine, doesn't that technically grant a double regeneration effect to the mecha, (the regen of the mecha itself + the regen of the pilot) since effects that heal either heal the mecha?

No, they're still separate HP pools (hence the note about when the mecha takes damage, so does the android), clarified.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on October 27, 2016, 11:14:08 AM
The Android's One with the Machine then suddenly becomes a penalty and a terrible thing to use, since every damage inflicted to the mecha hurts the android but the heals to the mecha doesn't heal the android. The ability effectively has every damage suffered by the mecha count as critical hits that also hurt the mecha. It worked only because the heals healed the android as well, now the ability only cripples the whole.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 27, 2016, 11:41:06 AM
One with the machine always worked because it allows you to buff your Mecha's max HP, making it able to tank more damage before going down. Otherwise Androids end as magical reverse entropy holes that reward you for stuffing your cockpit with mooks with cure light wounds wands and other healing multiplier shenigans.

Kinda strange coming from you who's always pointing out how raw multipliers are bad.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on October 27, 2016, 01:48:17 PM
I don't think you get what I mean.
The way it works right now, an Android under OwtM would keep both its own HP and the Mecha's separate.
But damage suffered by the mecha is also dealt to the android. Though healing to the mecha doesn't go to the android and healing to the android doesn't go to the mecha.

Android has 100 hp and uses OwtM. The mecha receives 50 damage. Android also receives 50 damage.
Mecha heals 30 damage with a spirit, android doesn't heal. Mecha receives 60 damage, so does the android.
The mecha still has enough hp to still be up and running, but the android got killed.
It is like every attack deal critical hits. For it to work, it would have to stop the android from suffering the damage as well or get the healing too. Otherwise the android will indeed need a horde of mooks healing it all the time to stop his mecha from kill it because it cannot keep up with its healing. Before they shared the the same HP and if the mecha was destroyed the android died. Now it just makes it easier to kill the pilot.

If the issue is heals on the android pilot healing the mecha, that's something else that can be prevented by itself. The mecha could keep damaging/healing the android as a one-way street. Damage specifically done to the android within the mecha similarly wouldn't affect the mecha.
It better distributes the risks of getting killed in the mecha instead of just benefiting from an extra pool of HP.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 27, 2016, 02:24:27 PM
Ugh, I get that this system apparently needed a lot of rework but dang. I only got done making my Moon Vanguard the other week.
Yeah but it helps when you don't do stuff like this.
Friendship/Devotion relationship feat: Same as Cheer, with a group of minions that keep bringing you back/giving you rerolls and the like.
Well that's actually intended to promote "kill the mooks first/simultaneously!".
One with the machine always worked because it allows you to buff your Mecha's max HP, making it able to tank more damage before going down. Otherwise Androids end as magical reverse entropy holes that reward you for stuffing your cockpit with mooks with cure light wounds wands and other healing multiplier shenigans.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 27, 2016, 07:42:03 PM
I don't think you get what I mean.
The way it works right now, an Android under OwtM would keep both its own HP and the Mecha's separate.
But damage suffered by the mecha is also dealt to the android. Though healing to the mecha doesn't go to the android and healing to the android doesn't go to the mecha.

Android has 100 hp and uses OwtM. The mecha receives 50 damage. Android also receives 50 damage.
Mecha heals 30 damage with a spirit, android doesn't heal. Mecha receives 60 damage, so does the android.
The mecha still has enough hp to still be up and running, but the android got killed.
It is like every attack deal critical hits. For it to work, it would have to stop the android from suffering the damage as well or get the healing too. Otherwise the android will indeed need a horde of mooks healing it all the time to stop his mecha from kill it because it cannot keep up with its healing. Before they shared the the same HP and if the mecha was destroyed the android died. Now it just makes it easier to kill the pilot.

Only if you're using and abusing self-healing effects.

But if you are not making such a build , it's a net gain while the mecha lasts, in particular when you take in account the mecha auto-ejects the pilot when it reaches 0 HP.

Promoting a mecha build that doesn't rely on self-healing? Crazy, I know. Whoever heard of mechas that can't reconstruct themselves on the fly? It's almost as several of them are supposed to be inorganic machines.  :rolleyes

And if you want a self-healing android build that badly, that's what Machinery Warrior is there for.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on October 27, 2016, 07:56:25 PM
No I think you're missing what Anomander is saying Os. In his example, without any self-healing tricks, the Mecha outlived the pilot. One With the Machine doesn't help anything if both the Mecha and the pilot are taking the same damage from every attack the Mecha takes. A pooled HP pool doesn't make the Mecha last longer if they both take the same damage and are tracked separately.

If the pilot only has 50 HP and the Mecha has 100 HP, and OWtM is used to add the pilots 50 to the Mecha 100, but then the Mecha gets hit for 60 damage and both the Mecha and the pilot have to take the full 60 damage each, now the Mecha is at 40 HP and the pilot is at -10 HP and dead after just one attack.


That's what I read anyways.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 27, 2016, 08:23:47 PM
Ketaro, you're the one misreading things here.

First One with the Machine doesn't add HP together, it makes the mecha's max hp equal to the android's max HP. So you should never use it if your mecha has more HP than your android.

Second, Anomander specifically used healing on his example. Since the healing's isn't magically multiplied, if you try to abuse healing effects on the mecha's boosted HP pool, the android pilot themselves cannot keep up if you're making an uber self-healing build.

However if you're not (ab)using self-healing effects, then it becomes a moot point since the mecha will reach 0 HP at the same time as the android pilot. But was able to tank more damage if the Android had higher HP than the mecha in the first place.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on October 27, 2016, 11:23:48 PM
Weird I don't see that even after it being pointed out  :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 28, 2016, 12:22:50 AM
Ketaro, you're the one misreading things here.

First One with the Machine doesn't add HP together, it makes the mecha's max hp equal to the android's max HP. So you should never use it if your mecha has more HP than your android.

Second, Anomander specifically used healing on his example. Since the healing's isn't magically multiplied, if you try to abuse healing effects on the mecha's boosted HP pool, the android pilot themselves cannot keep up if you're making an uber self-healing build.

However if you're not (ab)using self-healing effects, then it becomes a moot point since the mecha will reach 0 HP at the same time as the android pilot. But was able to tank more damage if the Android had higher HP than the mecha in the first place.

Doesn't that make self healing spirits pointless though? Like, what's the point of Guts if it doesn't actually provide any effective healing?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 28, 2016, 01:28:28 AM
Guts is quite effective healing as long as you're not One with the Machine, in which case the pilot does not suffer damage inflicted to the mecha.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 28, 2016, 03:40:35 AM
I was just looking at the super robot upgrades, and the "Supporting" upgrade kinda confuses me. who exactly does it provide the bonus to? its pilot? an adjacent allied mech?
(also, the "Sentient" upgrade and "Supporting" both reference the super robot's own level. Is that the pilot's level?)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on October 28, 2016, 04:35:15 AM
Quote
But if you are not making such a build , it's a net gain while the mecha lasts, in particular when you take in account the mecha auto-ejects the pilot when it reaches 0 HP.
That wouldn't work well. The android would normally die before the mecha breaks or at the same time, at best. It won't get to use the auto-eject.
Not using OwtM gives your own HP + the HP of the mecha before you die, since when the mecha is down you're ejected. An android with OwtM has only his own HP and doesn't get a free escape with the auto-eject if there's an attack that would kill it.
You get a mecha that has a more HP than the norm (if the android invests big in his own HP score, which he has no choice to do if he doesn't want to have one less ability) but you die faster in it.
Even without heals a critical hit on a mecha inflicts more damage to the android than it would normally receive.
If somehow the mecha is destroyed and the android inside is still alive, it would be in a much worse shape than another pilot.

Quote
Promoting a mecha build that doesn't rely on self-healing? Crazy, I know. Whoever heard of mechas that can't reconstruct themselves on the fly? It's almost as several of them are supposed to be inorganic machines.  :rolleyes
Your reasoning was that you didn't want to encourage mooks healing the android to save the mecha. You just have to prevent heals on the android from affecting the mecha. Now you're still encouraging mooks to heal the android within so that it can keep up with the mecha's heals.
A PC that doesn't have any way to heal his mecha, himself or by an ally, is highly unlikely (they'll likely get at least 1 spirit to heal). Mostly considering that without healing a mecha will have a hard time being used through multiple encounters until it gets back home for long repairs.
In-combat healing is also rather common in DnD all around, if only from a dedicated healer. With this campaign setting giving tons of means to dish out big numbers for damage, this is no less the case. Sure, an android could use Guts while not in OwtM, but then if it has Guts why even bother with OwtM.

Otherwise, it could also return to the mecha using the android's HP like it did before and the mecha being destroyed if the android dies, then add the effect that the android piloting the mecha is targeted as if it was the mecha itself and so can no longer be affected by effects that wouldn't affect the mecha, which would prevent any extra method of healing and buffs from within the cockpit that isn't available to any other mecha (and prevent most buffers in the cockpit from affecting the pilot to buff the mecha). It also wouldn't benefit from regeneration twice off Machinery Warrior since multiple regeneration effects already do not stack and wouldn't be applied to two different targets to combine the effect.

Quote
And if you want a self-healing android build that badly, that's what Machinery Warrior is there for.
For now I'm interested in the android becoming one with the machine properly. I could have made a stronger build without the android race to start with but I liked the idea of One with the Machine for my concept and I have so much more stuff to work with now.
Machinery Warrior starts at level 11. Bit late for the android to start trying to keep up with an healed mecha so that's out of the question in campaigns in the lower levels. I'll probably level dip in it all the same, but not for the regeneration, which'll be redundant in my build anyway.


Born to Fight feat
The arsenal surge for Mega Booster and TROMBE! do not have a duration.

Innovade feat
Is there supposed to be a limit to how many mechas can be piloted by this? You can fit quite a few in 20 feet plus 5 feet per Pilot level and even more if you use the Einst Queen Infiltrator trick to turn that range to mecha scale.
Also, if a mecha/machine becomes unattended within range of two Innovades, which one controls it? An opposed charisma check, perhaps?
Oddly, the benefit feels like something machines should be good at too, despite it being normally a 'human' thing. Androids are bad at it though since they can't use charisma well.

Showtime Star
Pretty cool. One More Time only covers the cost of the weapon, right? Not the maneuver that triggers it. At least that's what seems to be intended the way it is presented. Very powerful and maybe not too much so as long as it happens to only one attack and not all of them, if a maneuver offers a bunch of shots.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 28, 2016, 09:34:14 AM
I was just looking at the super robot upgrades, and the "Supporting" upgrade kinda confuses me. who exactly does it provide the bonus to? its pilot? an adjacent allied mech?
(also, the "Sentient" upgrade and "Supporting" both reference the super robot's own level. Is that the pilot's level?)
Pilot on all cases, clarified.


Quote
But if you are not making such a build , it's a net gain while the mecha lasts, in particular when you take in account the mecha auto-ejects the pilot when it reaches 0 HP.
That wouldn't work well. The android would normally die before the mecha breaks or at the same time, at best. It won't get to use the auto-eject.
Not using OwtM gives your own HP + the HP of the mecha before you die, since when the mecha is down you're ejected. An android with OwtM has only his own HP and doesn't get a free escape with the auto-eject if there's an attack that would kill it.
You get a mecha that has a more HP than the norm (if the android invests big in his own HP score, which he has no choice to do if he doesn't want to have one less ability) but you die faster in it.
Even without heals a critical hit on a mecha inflicts more damage to the android than it would normally receive.
If somehow the mecha is destroyed and the android inside is still alive, it would be in a much worse shape than another pilot.
Good point on critical hits, added clause for that.

Although it's fine to don't use all your multiple racial abilities if you don't want to. Not all elves walk around with swords. Not all halflings specialize in thrown weapons. Not all dwarves decide to only fight giants and goblinoids.

Quote
Promoting a mecha build that doesn't rely on self-healing? Crazy, I know. Whoever heard of mechas that can't reconstruct themselves on the fly? It's almost as several of them are supposed to be inorganic machines.  :rolleyes
Your reasoning was that you didn't want to encourage mooks healing the android to save the mecha. You just have to prevent heals on the android from affecting the mecha. Now you're still encouraging mooks to heal the android within so that it can keep up with the mecha's heals.
A PC that doesn't have any way to heal his mecha, himself or by an ally, is highly unlikely (they'll likely get at least 1 spirit to heal). Mostly considering that without healing a mecha will have a hard time being used through multiple encounters until it gets back home for long repairs.
Ship Veteran Mechanics, or the default one hour per 10% of HP repair.

In-combat healing is also rather common in DnD all around, if only from a dedicated healer. With this campaign setting giving tons of means to dish out big numbers for damage, this is no less the case. Sure, an android could use Guts while not in OwtM, but then if it has Guts why even bother with OwtM.
Depends on who you ask. A lot of the so-called CO community preaches the exact opposite, that in-combat healing is a waste of time because you could be killing stuff instead. If you do everything well you won't even need to heal in the first place, and once the enemies are defeated you can heal at your leisure. Heck, my second D&D group that was as noob as they come and still had a rule of "only stop to heal for stablizing bleeding allies, and even then if they're about to die". And very few people like playing the healbot.

Otherwise, it could also return to the mecha using the android's HP like it did before and the mecha being destroyed if the android dies, then add the effect that the android piloting the mecha is targeted as if it was the mecha itself and so can no longer be affected by effects that wouldn't affect the mecha, which would prevent any extra method of healing and buffs from within the cockpit that isn't available to any other mecha (and prevent most buffers in the cockpit from affecting the pilot to buff the mecha). It also wouldn't benefit from regeneration twice off Machinery Warrior since multiple regeneration effects already do not stack and wouldn't be applied to two different targets to combine the effect.
It never worked like that. If anything the wording wasn't clear enough, silly me that by writing that failed to predict that writing that damage to the mecha applies to the android can actually mean that everything under the stars applied to the mecha would also apply to the android.

Quote
And if you want a self-healing android build that badly, that's what Machinery Warrior is there for.
For now I'm interested in the android becoming one with the machine properly. I could have made a stronger build without the android race to start with
Indeed, you could've played a kobold and went pun-pun.

"I could've made a more OP character" isn't much of a valid argument in D&D.

but I liked the idea of One with the Machine for my concept and I have so much more stuff to work with now.Machinery Warrior starts at level 11. Bit late for the android to start trying to keep up with an healed mecha so that's out of the question in campaigns in the lower levels. I'll probably level dip in it all the same, but not for the regeneration, which'll be redundant in my build anyway.
Suit yourself, just let me make a note to start keeping careful track of your character's HP in case there are any more misunderstandings.

Born to Fight feat
The arsenal surge for Mega Booster and TROMBE! do not have a duration.

Innovade feat
Is there supposed to be a limit to how many mechas can be piloted by this? You can fit quite a few in 20 feet plus 5 feet per Pilot level and even more if you use the Einst Queen Infiltrator trick to turn that range to mecha scale.
Also, if a mecha/machine becomes unattended within range of two Innovades, which one controls it? An opposed charisma check, perhaps?
Oddly, the benefit feels like something machines should be good at too, despite it being normally a 'human' thing. Androids are bad at it though since they can't use charisma well.

Showtime Star
Pretty cool. One More Time only covers the cost of the weapon, right? Not the maneuver that triggers it. At least that's what seems to be intended the way it is presented. Very powerful and maybe not too much so as long as it happens to only one attack and not all of them, if a maneuver offers a bunch of shots.
-Fixed.
-If you're already piloting a mecha, then you can't pilot another even if it's unattended just as if you were inside the mecha you're already piloting. If the mecha is being controlled by another Innovade, then it doesn't count as unattended. Also Innovades were originally meat bags machine slaves organic terminals for a super computer, so lack of android synergy is intended.
-Thanks. Yes, maneuver paid apart, limited the free pass to one shot per weapon.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on October 28, 2016, 11:15:29 AM
Is it intentional that Gate to Nowhere, Showtime Star, Cyber Newtype, Innovade, and Coordinator aren't [Pilot] Feats? The former two especially, as they require Pilot Levels

Also, it feels weird to me that Cyber Newtype doesn't let you use funnels, what with that being pretty much the whole point of cyber newtypes (not entirely, but you get what I mean)

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Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on October 29, 2016, 02:35:02 AM
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A lot of the so-called CO community preaches the exact opposite, that in-combat healing is a waste of time because you could be killing stuff instead.
That's not as relevant in a system that doesn't consume actions to heal.

Quote
And very few people like playing the healbot.
Ah? Being the healer is fun. Mechas don't need a dedicated healer much, though, at least until the heal options are revamped as well. Pilots are another matter though.

Quote
Although it's fine to don't use all your multiple racial abilities if you don't want to.
Sure, or get a group of mook healers to make it viable. Anyway, all that to say that looking at OwtM I see it as rather awful. If you think it isn't actually a sub-par alternative to normal piloting, then that's fine.
Quote
"I could've made a more OP character" isn't much of a valid argument in D&D.
Wasn't an argument. Just saying that for the concept it seemed cool. Now it seems less like becoming one with the mecha and more like the mecha is using the pilot like some kind of shield. The argument was that if you you're stating that Machine Warrior is there to make One with the Machine work for an android to make the healing options sort of viable again with OwtM, the prestige class is available too late to be an option at the earlier levels.

Quote
-If you're already piloting a mecha, then you can't pilot another even if it's unattended just as if you were inside the mecha you're already piloting. If the mecha is being controlled by another Innovade, then it doesn't count as unattended. Also Innovades were originally meat bags machine slaves organic terminals for a super computer, so lack of android synergy is intended.
I'm asking what happens to a mecha/machine that suddenly becomes unattended within the range of two/more of those guys. Who gets to control it?  If it is treated as being in their possession, it is no longer unattended... but who gets to have it "in his possession" first?
Lack of android synergy is intended though I'm just pointing out that the idea of proxy machine control fits androids well (although the setting that it takes it from is for organics... in practice it seems machines would normally have an even easier time controlling other machines). Anyway.

Arsenal
Targeting  Simulator (IV) should probably have a -3 penalty to Will saves.
Booster (I) similarly doesn't have a penalty like the other movement increase accessories.
With accessories making maneuvers and spirit usage more efficient, maybe there should also be an accessory to make the energy consumption of movement more efficient as well. Like a better engine.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 29, 2016, 07:00:35 PM
For Born to Fight (specifically, Over the Top), does the base AC of some pure metal armour get added to the mecha's AC? And does armour proficiency factor into it in any degree?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Rekmond on October 31, 2016, 02:21:55 AM
Question, and something that only occurred to me to check a few minutes ago.

Mechs and space are quite commonly paired, but I am finding nothing in this material involving low light vision, dark vision, blind sight sensors, or anything really. Not even headlamps

No accessories or upgrades, and the only feat that makes any mention of them is the Funnel Control System in that "Your funnels benefits from any special visions and senses you have, and you can "see/sense" from their position as well."

Is this intentional or just something overlooked? Because it seems to me if your race doesn't have an ability for it, you are going to have a really bad time trying to fight in the darkness of space or even at night.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 31, 2016, 07:08:31 AM
I thought the problem with space wasn't lighting, but distance? If it's dark, you're basically in a planet's shadow and fighting at night anyway.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 31, 2016, 10:48:59 AM
Is it intentional that Gate to Nowhere, Showtime Star, Cyber Newtype, Innovade, and Coordinator aren't [Pilot] Feats? The former two especially, as they require Pilot Levels

Also, it feels weird to me that Cyber Newtype doesn't let you use funnels, what with that being pretty much the whole point of cyber newtypes (not entirely, but you get what I mean)
Ups, fixed. I specifically thought about the Funnels unblocking part but then I forgot to actually write it down.

For Born to Fight (specifically, Over the Top), does the base AC of some pure metal armour get added to the mecha's AC? And does armour proficiency factor into it in any degree?
Yes you get the AC, and yes, you need the respective armor proficiency to benefit from specific pure metal properties.

Question, and something that only occurred to me to check a few minutes ago.

Mechs and space are quite commonly paired, but I am finding nothing in this material involving low light vision, dark vision, blind sight sensors, or anything really. Not even headlamps

No accessories or upgrades, and the only feat that makes any mention of them is the Funnel Control System in that "Your funnels benefits from any special visions and senses you have, and you can "see/sense" from their position as well."

Is this intentional or just something overlooked? Because it seems to me if your race doesn't have an ability for it, you are going to have a really bad time trying to fight in the darkness of space or even at night.

Hmmm, I guess overlooked is the right word, since the games just reveal everything right away. I guess I'll write something for mechas having default lamps and then some special senses acessories/upgrades when I'm not so sleepy (at the top of my head acessories more based on vision/sound, super would get exotic stuff like Scent and permanent Detect X effects).


Quote
A lot of the so-called CO community preaches the exact opposite, that in-combat healing is a waste of time because you could be killing stuff instead.
That's not as relevant in a system that doesn't consume actions to heal.
But it does consume resources that could be used to kill your enemy faster. Spirits being spent on healing are spirits not spent on Strike/Valor/Zeal/etc.

Quote
"I could've made a more OP character" isn't much of a valid argument in D&D.
Wasn't an argument. Just saying that for the concept it seemed cool. Now it seems less like becoming one with the mecha and more like the mecha is using the pilot like some kind of shield. The argument was that if you you're stating that Machine Warrior is there to make One with the Machine work for an android to make the healing options sort of viable again with OwtM, the prestige class is available too late to be an option at the earlier levels.

The way you thought One with the Machine works is borked at low-mid levels. Because you can get full-heals and percentage-based regeneration in this system, the benefits of having a higher max HP are drastically increased. Now as you may've noticed, the ways to actually increase your max mecha HP are rather limited. But then the android that gets to throw those limits out the window. And if then the android also gets to benefit from full/percentage heals, their value scales pretty much out of control. It just can't be compared. The damage needed to do any significant damage to your vision of One with the Machine will have killed the rest of the party multiple times over. That's, if anything, a high level concept.

tl:dr-Making the rules work like you suggest will mean android is the only true way of making a tanky mecha because any other race will suck balls in durability terms when compared to the android mecha at low-mid levels.

Quote
-If you're already piloting a mecha, then you can't pilot another even if it's unattended just as if you were inside the mecha you're already piloting. If the mecha is being controlled by another Innovade, then it doesn't count as unattended. Also Innovades were originally meat bags machine slaves organic terminals for a super computer, so lack of android synergy is intended.
I'm asking what happens to a mecha/machine that suddenly becomes unattended within the range of two/more of those guys. Who gets to control it?  If it is treated as being in their possession, it is no longer unattended... but who gets to have it "in his possession" first?
Lack of android synergy is intended though I'm just pointing out that the idea of proxy machine control fits androids well (although the setting that it takes it from is for organics... in practice it seems machines would normally have an even easier time controlling other machines). Anyway.
There's a reason why most mecha are piloted by meat bags. Something brain waves.

Arsenal
Targeting  Simulator (IV) should probably have a -3 penalty to Will saves.
Good catch.

Booster (I) similarly doesn't have a penalty like the other movement increase accessories.
None of the level I acessories have.

With accessories making maneuvers and spirit usage more efficient, maybe there should also be an accessory to make the energy consumption of movement more efficient as well. Like a better engine.
It's called a ship.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on November 01, 2016, 12:23:31 AM
The way you thought One with the Machine works is borked at low-mid levels.
No, he's saying it's borked at all levels.

So aside from the fact a Mech will typically have more HP anyway and your text entry directly disagrees with your recent ruling; When a Critical Hit happens the Pilot takes roughly 300% damage, the x2 damage to the Mech as the damage is shared, and the none-critical amount that hits the pilot for all Critical Hits. This is devastating no matter the character or optimization level. Likewise, bashing healing in battle aside because you are trying to offer free-action healing in combat, damage is shared but not healing so you need twice as much as before. You will have cases of the mech/droid combo taking 55% damage in a round, an ally trying to heal the mech, and the pilot being dead in the seat next round anyway. One with the Machine is an optional penalty that offers no real bonuses.

I think I also figured it out. You remind me of those programming noobs, you fix one tiny little error and then the console spams forty seven errors back at you and all you can do is hoot, rant, complain, self-contradict, and otherwise try to bully the compiler into submission. It's frustrating but relax. You're receiving comments not inherently because it's broken to hell and back, but because people are interested enough to help you try and make it even better. Just accept there will be no end to things that need fixed, specially when patch jobs result in none-working concepts, and put them on a time table like everything else and you'll probably feel better.
Incidentally, imgur had some deva comics up this morning. Have something you can probably relate to :p
(click to show/hide)

Also on the sensors, have some ideas such as electromagnet, infrared, x-ray, radar, laser emitters, etc. You could spoof it up for all seven Arsenal levels and maybe offer some alternative methods of sensing (like emotion detectors? feel my burning heart justice!)
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Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 01, 2016, 12:37:38 AM

Hey, one of my players is griping about Mecha Engineer not being updated to the new EN system. Would it be too much trouble to ask for an update there?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 02, 2016, 12:57:16 AM
Ah, yes. I'll get it done within the next few days. I can pop up a quick formula for the new energy progressions per frame type though I'll recheck all the stuff that works off energy to make sure it fits the fact that there's a lot more energy to use in the early levels and less in the later levels. Probably following suit by similarly increasing/decreasing the energy costs based on what they do.
Maybe reassess other stuff again since there's been plenty of changes all around. Maybe also add some more Custom Soul options, especially the later levels that are empty. Probably using Soro's suggestions. I'll confirm when I'm done and the big lines of what changed to make it easier to update the sheets.

edit: Minor changes to some mecha hp caps. Different mecha energy progressions. Changes to the in-built real robot weapon costs and limits. Updated the multiclassing option with Real Robot to less arsenal space and to limit it off the generic robots along with minimum size reduction for taking the dynamic frame. More to come when I'll be back from work tomorrow, maybe.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 02, 2016, 05:30:36 AM
Added a bunch of new arsenal options, plus three new Super Robot upgrades, Undetectable, Ancient Sensor and Electronic Nose.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 02, 2016, 11:35:04 AM
Added a bunch of new arsenal options, plus three new Super Robot upgrades, Undetectable, Ancient Sensor and Electronic Nose.

The new arsenal options are kind of cool, but they also make Darkness being on the Arcane Pilot spell list kinda pointless. It doesn't do anything with how trivially easy it is to get darkvision now. I'm not suggesting remove darkvision, but maybe add some kind of upgrade Arcane Pilots can take as a super upgrade, perhaps, to let them bypass that?

And Anomander, you seem to have a typo in the formulas for mecha engineer EN
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Nanshork on November 02, 2016, 11:51:16 AM
Added a bunch of new arsenal options, plus three new Super Robot upgrades, Undetectable, Ancient Sensor and Electronic Nose.

The new arsenal options are kind of cool, but they also make Darkness being on the Arcane Pilot spell list kinda pointless. It doesn't do anything with how trivially easy it is to get darkvision now. I'm not suggesting remove darkvision, but maybe add some kind of upgrade Arcane Pilots can take as a super upgrade, perhaps, to let them bypass that?

And Anomander, you seem to have a typo in the formulas for mecha engineer EN

Darkvision doesn't allow you to see through magical darkness.  From the darkness spell "Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness."
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 02, 2016, 11:55:08 AM

Darkvision doesn't allow you to see through magical darkness.  From the darkness spell "Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness."

Right, whoops. I'm thinking of PF Darkness, which specifies that darkvision ignores it (unless it's Mythic).


Also, Anomander, the Engineer's Maintenance breakthrough. Is it intended that there is no limit to the amount of HP you can repair in one action aside from EN available?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on November 02, 2016, 01:16:08 PM
The new arsenal options are kind of cool, but they also make Darkness being on the Arcane Pilot spell list kinda pointless.
Most of the Arcane Pilot's Spells are pretty pointless. It's Evocation is out scaled by Arsenal, in general it's out performed by Splat of lower levels and almighty-tera-giga-mega-extraspecially when it comes to buffs, it goes almost no CC effects, no Divinations, no mooks, no movement, no town building/support, etc. Heck Ols complained last month over lack of Counters being used, Real/Super get five Counters, excluding applicable Boosts/Stances, and "That won't work twice!" & "Unbreakable Will" are extremely potent defensive abilities but the Arcane Pilot doesn't even get Wings of Cover which is still limited to 1/rnd vs Danger Zone's 1st level Parry's ability to block every attack if you have a high enough Attack Bonus, so it has literally nothing to counter outside of Spirits which apparently require prepared usage on the turn before actually knowing you needed them.  :-\

It puts an overwhelming amount of pressure on it's Extra Known slots but it only gets one of each level (two of the 1st) forcing you to take the most broken Spells you can find in order to compensate for your lack of choice and poor list. Like if you want to actually use CharOp's recognized blasting Spells like Combust, Dalamar's Lightning Lance, Wings of Flurry, Lord of the Sky, or w/e else then you gave up the chance to grab stuff like Haste, Spider Skin, Heart of Water, Scry, Superior Resistance, Teleport, etc. So maybe you just figure Planar Binding and picking creatures capable of providing both is the only way to go.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Rekmond on November 02, 2016, 05:54:42 PM
Ancient Sensor is great, love the multiple options to mix it up and not make it an always pick (except maybe for Moon Vanguard, that sense organic creatures mech size or bigger is some great synergy)

Electronic Nose and Undetectable are also options that have me in giggles. Scent in space and sensor baffling for sneaking up on people with blindsense.

but with Undectable, what happens if the detect range is effectively 0 mu? Are you invisible to their sensors outside of actual line of sight vision?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on November 02, 2016, 06:33:33 PM
but with Undectable, what happens if the detect range is effectively 0 mu? Are you invisible to their sensors outside of actual line of sight vision?
Pretty much sounds like it but you need more than upgrades.

For example, at level 4 the would be seeing only needs to invest in 9 Arsenal points for 120mu special vision. You need to invest 19 Arsenal points in the Yksvoknym Particles Generator and 2 Upgrade points into Undetectable to counter it. Electronic Disruptor's 1/12th should keep you from having to invest more Upgrade points into Undetectable but stealth just got a lot harder without just picking up Darkstalker.

Quote
Longo Alcance Radar (II): You gain Spacesense 120 mu plus you can see through fogs as well as obstacles not made of metal as long as they're less than 5 feet thick and within 120 mu, but you take a -1 penalty on Will saves. This takes only 9 arsenal space.

Raios X Radar Avançado(III): You can see through fogs, as well as obstacles not made of metal as long as they're less than 5 feet thick and within 120 mu but take a -1 penalty to all saves. This takes only 9 arsenal space.
Maybe flip flop them?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 02, 2016, 08:17:47 PM
Oslecamo, I'm running a game with this system, and one of my players (who doesn't have an account) wanted to make some requests about the system. Here is his point:
Quote from: Siflux
I'm pretty happy with most the system, but I have a serious problem with the Accessory nerfs. As they now stand, accessories cost 25 arsenal, but grant both a buff and a nerf. Arsenal is a pool of what is supposed to be points making you stronger, but post nerf, you spend your upgrade pool on specializing and altering your mech in a way that could just as easily be handled in the manner of giving Real Pilots their Arsenal tier worth of slots to mess around with their mech.


Speaking of slots, I'd like to propose an alternate way to handle accessories that would hopefully allow you to return them to their proper power level without any issues with them being unbalanced. What I propose is to switch accessories to a hardpoint/slot system (much like in the games), and to remove the nerfs on them. Additional Parts slots would be purchased with Arsenal, or with Upgrade on Supers, with additional slots costing more to naturally limit the max number of parts slots -- for example, 25 Arsenal for the first slot, as per the existing system, but then 50 for the next slot, 75 for the next slot, and so on, with each additional part slot costing 25 more than the last in this example. This is already well modeled with Hyperdimensional Storage for Supers, which could just be directly converted over to buying parts slots, since that's both the best thing to do with that upgrade and the reason why it was a mandatory pre-nerf set of upgrades on most super robot builds.


The existing accessory nerf hits Supers hard, as it greatly decreases the value of Extradimensional Storage. For Supers wanting special weapons like armor breakers, there should still be a way to get Arsenal. Maybe provide 10 Arsenal for free and force multi-classing for more. Maybe still let it be bought with Upgrade. The above numbers are suggested due to their match with current values from Upgrade, but could well be different. They're primarily provided as examples to illustrate the point. This would also provide an extra advantage towards taking Reals with built-in free accessories.


I believe that the biggest balance problem here is that it's trivial and used to be highly rewarding to grab tons of accessories as a Real, as your inbuilt weapons generally provided most or all of the combat options you needed, and Arsenal weapons cost very little Arsenal -- a heavy weapon like the Burst Railgun is only 10 Arsenal. Contrast with the games, where it's 40 W-Gauge in OG1, and 30 in OG2. By the current system, this is necessary to make Arsenal normal weapons at all desirable, as they must directly compete with accessories; unless you had less than 25 Arsenal left, by the pre-nerf system your best move was always taking another Accessory.


If you want to use Arsenal for accessories, there's a few good solutions that immediately occur to me. You can nerf them, which you did and I dislikebecause it makes them stop being special. You can increase the cost of normal Arsenal weapons, so characters have things other than Accessories to spend their Arsenal on, except likely that just means players will ignore arsenal weapons almost entirely, which I assume goes against your design intent here. Of course, not using Arsenal for accessories at all and giving each Real on the list a Part slot count would also work, much like in the games, but by the way this hasn’t been done, I am guessing that for some reason you consider this undesirable to the design.


The change of accessory from individually purchased to buying slots works poorly with the accessories with nonstandard costs, of which I think there are four categories: Refined Armament, Cartridge, sense-granting parts of cost 9, and such parts of cost 19. Solutions are varied for each. For Refined Armament, either move it to a different category to still be bought at 5 Arsenal, or make a single part slot filled with it apply its bonus to up to five weapons (or, since most units don't have more than five weapons anyway, just simplify things by making the one accessory apply to all weapons). Cartridge would be handled similarly: keep it Arsenal cost 2 instead of being an accessory, give pilots twelve of them to a slot, or buff them to the power seen in the games. For sensors, again possibly make them not take accessory slots, or allow three cost-9 sensors to a slot, or a cost-19 and a cost-9. By the current Arsenal numbers, those all should be of equivalent value.


Another possible solution to the nonstandard cost issue is to do percentage-based or static increases in Arsenal cost for each additional accessory: the first is the listed cost, the second costs 5% more than the normal cost for the accessory or 2 arsenal more, the third costs 10% more than base cost for the accessory or 5 arsenal more, and so on.


As a side effect of this change, normal Arsenal weapon costs could be increased to price most of them out of range of Supers, which is good -- Supers aren't supposed to be using mook weapons, especially not awesome ones like the Shishioh Blade or the Graviton Cannon. If you disagree with this and consider that a desirable outcome the system, it can still be allowed under this system by allowing Parts Slots to be traded in for 25 Arsenal each, thus making powerful normal Arsenal weapons still obtainable for Supers, but requiring the trade-in of multiple Parts slots, thus only being worth doing on highly specific builds (like ranged super).


Thank you for considering all this. Good game design is important to me, and I think this mod is a great base overall. I'm happy to be a player in this setting, there just still a few things to work on in my opinion. For things where you disagree with me, I'd really appreciate hearing your design intent, and your reason for doing things differently. I'm currently working off the assumption that your goal is basically 'like Super Robot Wars, but d20 and with all the benefits of the SRD behind it'.

Also, the combining robot system in Mecha Mook doesn't seem to have been updated for the EN overhaul
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 02, 2016, 08:33:39 PM
Oslecamo, I'm running a game with this system, and one of my players (who doesn't have an account) wanted to make some requests about the system. Here is his point:
Quote from: Siflux
Lots of things to think about.
I was about to post a reply to previous comments when I saw this. Your player raises several good points but right now I don't have the time to properly write a reply, in particular because several of his suggestions sound like they're worth working on and I want to properly consider them. Hopefully I'll be able to give a more detailed answer later today or tommorrow.

Also, the combining robot system in Mecha Mook doesn't seem to have been updated for the EN overhaul
I'll see to updating it soon too, thanks for the catch!

Ancient Sensor is great, love the multiple options to mix it up and not make it an always pick (except maybe for Moon Vanguard, that sense organic creatures mech size or bigger is some great synergy)

Electronic Nose and Undetectable are also options that have me in giggles. Scent in space and sensor baffling for sneaking up on people with blindsense.

but with Undectable, what happens if the detect range is effectively 0 mu? Are you invisible to their sensors outside of actual line of sight vision?
Correct.

The new arsenal options are kind of cool, but they also make Darkness being on the Arcane Pilot spell list kinda pointless.
Most of the Arcane Pilot's Spells are pretty pointless. It's Evocation is out scaled by Arsenal, in general it's out performed by Splat of lower levels and almighty-tera-giga-mega-extraspecially when it comes to buffs, it goes almost no CC effects, no Divinations, no mooks, no movement, no town building/support, etc.
Eeerr, Arcane Pilot has plenty of Divinations, from the humble Detect Magic to Locate Object to  Clairaudience/Clairvoyance to Locate Creature to True Seeing, several more all the way to Foresight.

Also a fair amount of support, from Alarm to Darkness to Heroism to Cat’s Grace.

As for town building, he has mecha-scale Unseen Servant.

Mooks come from the familiars. You even pointed out how you can make a build about turning them into gun turrets to lay out the dakka good.

And yes, the real/super pilot outdamage the arcane pilot because real/super don't really have anything at all utility wise on their side of the gestalt.

Heck Ols complained last month over lack of Counters being used, Real/Super get five Counters, excluding applicable Boosts/Stances, and "That won't work twice!" & "Unbreakable Will" are extremely potent defensive abilities but the Arcane Pilot doesn't even get Wings of Cover which is still limited to 1/rnd vs Danger Zone's 1st level Parry's ability to block every attack if you have a high enough Attack Bonus, so it has literally nothing to counter outside of Spirits which apparently require prepared usage on the turn before actually knowing you needed them.  :-\
Defend/Evade pilot feats. Even the Arcane Pilot gets some of those bonus.

It puts an overwhelming amount of pressure on it's Extra Known slots but it only gets one of each level (two of the 1st) forcing you to take the most broken Spells you can find in order to compensate for your lack of choice and poor list. Like if you want to actually use CharOp's recognized blasting Spells like Combust, Dalamar's Lightning Lance, Wings of Flurry, Lord of the Sky, or w/e else then you gave up the chance to grab stuff like Haste, Spider Skin, Heart of Water, Scry, Superior Resistance, Teleport, etc. So maybe you just figure Planar Binding and picking creatures capable of providing both is the only way to go.
Why yes, the intention is for Arcane Pilots to specialize in a certain type of magic instead of every mage character knowing all of the uber spell ever without real effort. And any of the spells you mentioned are enough on their own to make the Arcane Pilot a MVP for the party.

Then as you're doing in the game you can get extra spells through a variety of items.

Of course if your next step is to abuse Planar Binding, well, you're abusing planar binding, point.

but with Undectable, what happens if the detect range is effectively 0 mu? Are you invisible to their sensors outside of actual line of sight vision?
Pretty much sounds like it but you need more than upgrades.

2For example, at level 4 the would be seeing only needs to invest in 9 Arsenal points for 120mu special vision. You need to invest 19 Arsenal points in the Yksvoknym Particles Generator and 2 Upgrade points into Undetectable to counter it. Electronic Disruptor's 1/12th should keep you from having to invest more Upgrade points into Undetectable but stealth just got a lot harder without just picking up Darkstalker.
Buffed up Yksvoknym Particles Generator to 1/6 range.

Quote
Longo Alcance Radar (II): You gain Spacesense 120 mu plus you can see through fogs as well as obstacles not made of metal as long as they're less than 5 feet thick and within 120 mu, but you take a -1 penalty on Will saves. This takes only 9 arsenal space.

Raios X Radar Avançado(III): You can see through fogs, as well as obstacles not made of metal as long as they're less than 5 feet thick and within 120 mu but take a -1 penalty to all saves. This takes only 9 arsenal space.
Maybe flip flop them?
Ups, Raiox X Radar Avançado should have 240 mu range, fixed.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on November 02, 2016, 11:03:51 PM
Hopefully I'll be able to give a more detailed answer later today or tommorrow.
Really, the tl;dr is everything form weapon damage to cost should have had a balancing formula to it. Like cost specific, if you did say 1pt ammo, 2pts sensors, 4pts basic equipment, 6pts refined, you could balance all your costs. Later in post, you can inflated it to a 50~300 point system since the numbers them selves are arbitrary. But if you decided something should cost 225pts it should equal to something like a [basic (4 or 200pts) + 1/2 ammo (0.5 or 25pts)] and if it's not then you know it's cost needs a different value.

Eeerr, Arcane Pilot has plenty of Divinations, from the humble Detect Magic to Locate Object to  Clairaudience/Clairvoyance to Locate Creature to True Seeing, several more all the way to Foresight.
The core problem is you started at the SRD list and then started cutting Spells out which ended up leaving a theme of patchwork (no scry until lv14?). Like you have Alarm sure, and all the other upgrades for personally sleeping safely at night but you can't Fabricate a series of walls to protect more than a half dozen people or Move Earth some trenches in for warfare. What you have is a mech sized magical plate that can hold dirt the caster's mech sized bare hands have to pick up using his mech sized shovel that deals minimal damage to dirt.  :P

Some of the cuts make sense for balance sake, but if you're looking to balance the List then it also needs to be balanced to what the other Classes can do. Like yeah maybe the Arcane Pilot gets the same bonus Feats Super/Real does, but so does the Real/Super and that's not going to change the fact the Real/Super have exclusive extras for attack countering. The Arcane (and divine) should also get their own alternatives too, specially if you feel players need it to begin with.

Why yes, the intention is for Arcane Pilots to specialize in a certain type of magic instead of every mage character knowing all of the uber spell ever without real effort. And any of the spells you mentioned are enough on their own to make the Arcane Pilot a MVP for the party.
>.>
You have a funny way of wanting Arcane Pilots to specialize in a limited report of Spells. For one thing they can't choose a Spell that supports their specialty until a level after they gain the new Spell Level and "Favorite Spell" always shows up a level before you can choose your actual favorite Spell so you always "favor" spells you hate using.

Then as you're doing in the game you can get extra spells through a variety of items.
Yeah but Phantasm Star is a high powered game, some List snatching is expected, and Super Robot Wars the Campaign setting is not forced Gestated & high powered. :p

That being said you can set aside the differences in expected scale and look at the heart of it. Because I had to invest I wanted to increase the return, one thing led to another and in cause and effect Bahamut really doesn't have anything you'd call a cool item, since he's just a dragon on fire that spent most of his wealth trying to obtain Spells Arcane Pilot doesn't have.

And that's ok in the build. The RPs been fun, next level I'm a lot less constrained with my buffs with got me to pick some more interesting ones which are still pretty new to me. But Bahamut & Phantasy Star aside, Arcane Pilot has some problems. Even the Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer gets Splat Spells. If you want the Arcane Pilot to really narrow in on some favorites, less choice isn't the solution but more. Like you could cut the default list some more so it's purely basic role fulfilling then triple the open space giving them at least three Spells of every level to pick.

When people are limited they always grab what can give them the most. Like in another lovely SorO analogy. If you're poor you walk into Walk-Mart and throw a bunch of Hamburger in the cart because you can cook that in all kinds of ways and Hamburger Helper literately sells pasta ideas you can create after visiting the baking & spice section. But if you have the money to spend, you might instead walk in and think I want Tacos and BBQ New York strips which just doesn't have Hamburger in every option the guy with more restrictive limits has. You don't have to pick Polymorph's ominous solutions if you can pick up a number of unique Transmutations you like. You don't have to pick up Orb of Acid if you have the spare room to pick up different elemental Spells or even more than one area one Spell. Etc.

You'll always have a narrow section of people that will try to abuse the system much like the rich guy that refuses to pay his taxes, but choice breeds the ability to select things that do not amount to the best swiss army knife.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 03, 2016, 01:36:15 AM
Quote
And Anomander, you seem to have a typo in the formulas for mecha engineer EN
Good catch. Should be correct now.

Quote
Also, Anomander, the Engineer's Maintenance breakthrough. Is it intended that there is no limit to the amount of HP you can repair in one action aside from EN available?
Indeed though it doesn't work as well as it did now that there is so much energy to go around at the early levels. I increased the cost of the repairs to 6 EN per HP, scaling down to 1 EN per HP again at class level 10. It'll be more costy at the mid-late levels than it was before considering the lower energy caps so I'll perhaps make an higher tier maintenance breakthrough to make the first XperY hp restored free to make minor heals only cost the action and make strong heals as expensive as it was in the lower levels. Increased the status effect removal a bit as well.

- Reduced the maximum energy cost of a prototype weapon since energy isn't much of an issue early.
- Gave a higher starting energy to the escape pod breakthroughs.
- I capped overclock. It now doesn't cover energy costs for the movement itself.
- Improved the advanced energy shield since there's less energy to use on it but delayed regen 3.
- SotM; Scratched auto-repair and replaced it with reinforced frame.

That's it for the time being. Will check other stuff later.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on November 03, 2016, 02:15:57 AM
Did Super Robots always have a base Arsenal space before accounting for Hyperdimensional Storage?

Also I just noticed Super Robots have a base Arsenal Space so after I update my character I could still have Arsenal options......this is going to be such a pain going through everything like this to make sure I'm not missing anything niche -_-'
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 03, 2016, 02:16:45 AM
Did Super Robots always have a base Arsenal space before accounting for Hyperdimensional Storage?

Also I just noticed Super Robots have a base Arsenal Space so after I update my character I could still have Arsenal options......this is going to be such a pain going through everything like this to make sure I'm not missing anything niche -_-'
That appears to have just been added. Oslecamo seems to be going through and switching over to hardpoints
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on November 03, 2016, 02:24:00 AM
Well yeah, the Hardpoints thing is new. I meant before that too. I always thought Supers had 0 arsenal even before these updates.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 03, 2016, 02:24:53 AM
Well yeah, the Hardpoints thing is new. I meant before that too. I always thought Supers had 0 arsenal even before these updates.

Supers had 0 base arsenal before the updates.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on November 03, 2016, 02:30:22 AM
Okay, good. I wasn't missing out on more stuff I should have had then. That happens alot with me haha -_-'
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Rekmond on November 03, 2016, 02:37:39 AM
.....and I had redesigned my Moon Vanguard just yesterday.

Maybe I should build stuff off this material more often. After I do so it seems to get more updates....maybe go visit the Maid then.

*smacks face* Vanguard first Rek, maybe we'll get that in a final version before the hydra attacks.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 03, 2016, 03:17:38 AM
Yes, I'm updating the tables.

But this time I'm also leaving the old tables behind.

Well, except Super Robot, but I guess everybody can easily remember that Hyperdimensional Storage gave 1 Hardpoint per 25 Arsenal space, but now Super Robots get 4 Arsenal Space default.

Anyway the amount of guns/acessories you can have should be pretty much the same this time.

More on that later, preparing a big post.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 03, 2016, 03:47:25 AM
Quote from: Siflux
I'm pretty happy with most the system, but I have a serious problem with the Accessory nerfs. As they now stand, accessories cost 25 arsenal, but grant both a buff and a nerf. Arsenal is a pool of what is supposed to be points making you stronger, but post nerf, you spend your upgrade pool on specializing and altering your mech in a way that could just as easily be handled in the manner of giving Real Pilots their Arsenal tier worth of slots to mess around with their mech.

Speaking of slots, I'd like to propose an alternate way to handle accessories that would hopefully allow you to return them to their proper power level without any issues with them being unbalanced. What I propose is to switch accessories to a hardpoint/slot system (much like in the games), and to remove the nerfs on them. Additional Parts slots would be purchased with Arsenal, or with Upgrade on Supers, with additional slots costing more to naturally limit the max number of parts slots -- for example, 25 Arsenal for the first slot, as per the existing system, but then 50 for the next slot, 75 for the next slot, and so on, with each additional part slot costing 25 more than the last in this example. This is already well modeled with Hyperdimensional Storage for Supers, which could just be directly converted over to buying parts slots, since that's both the best thing to do with that upgrade and the reason why it was a mandatory pre-nerf set of upgrades on most super robot builds.


The existing accessory nerf hits Supers hard, as it greatly decreases the value of Extradimensional Storage. For Supers wanting special weapons like armor breakers, there should still be a way to get Arsenal. Maybe provide 10 Arsenal for free and force multi-classing for more. Maybe still let it be bought with Upgrade. The above numbers are suggested due to their match with current values from Upgrade, but could well be different. They're primarily provided as examples to illustrate the point. This would also provide an extra advantage towards taking Reals with built-in free accessories.


I believe that the biggest balance problem here is that it's trivial and used to be highly rewarding to grab tons of accessories as a Real, as your inbuilt weapons generally provided most or all of the combat options you needed, and Arsenal weapons cost very little Arsenal -- a heavy weapon like the Burst Railgun is only 10 Arsenal. Contrast with the games, where it's 40 W-Gauge in OG1, and 30 in OG2. By the current system, this is necessary to make Arsenal normal weapons at all desirable, as they must directly compete with accessories; unless you had less than 25 Arsenal left, by the pre-nerf system your best move was always taking another Accessory.


If you want to use Arsenal for accessories, there's a few good solutions that immediately occur to me. You can nerf them, which you did and I dislikebecause it makes them stop being special. You can increase the cost of normal Arsenal weapons, so characters have things other than Accessories to spend their Arsenal on, except likely that just means players will ignore arsenal weapons almost entirely, which I assume goes against your design intent here. Of course, not using Arsenal for accessories at all and giving each Real on the list a Part slot count would also work, much like in the games, but by the way this hasn’t been done, I am guessing that for some reason you consider this undesirable to the design.
You know, I can't really remember why I didn't just do that from the start. And it allows for pretty much what I want, that you'll pick a bunch of acessories and weapons.

Acessories no longer give penalties and now demand Hardpoints. Supers/Reals/Ships/multiclass updated to have those. I left the old lists in place for posterity's sake and people who don't want to update their sheets again. Although the number of acessories/weapons you can take should be about the same.
(click to show/hide)


Quote from: Siflux
The change of accessory from individually purchased to buying slots works poorly with the accessories with nonstandard costs, of which I think there are four categories: Refined Armament, Cartridge, sense-granting parts of cost 9, and such parts of cost 19. Solutions are varied for each. For Refined Armament, either move it to a different category to still be bought at 5 Arsenal, or make a single part slot filled with it apply its bonus to up to five weapons (or, since most units don't have more than five weapons anyway, just simplify things by making the one accessory apply to all weapons). Cartridge would be handled similarly: keep it Arsenal cost 2 instead of being an accessory, give pilots twelve of them to a slot, or buff them to the power seen in the games. For sensors, again possibly make them not take accessory slots, or allow three cost-9 sensors to a slot, or a cost-19 and a cost-9. By the current Arsenal numbers, those all should be of equivalent value.
-Made Refined Armament apply to all weapons and allowed it to be combined with one Radar option, which can be taken multiple times stacking 
-Combined Ablative Plates with the anti-radar systems.

Quote from: Siflux
Another possible solution to the nonstandard cost issue is to do percentage-based or static increases in Arsenal cost for each additional accessory: the first is the listed cost, the second costs 5% more than the normal cost for the accessory or 2 arsenal more, the third costs 10% more than base cost for the accessory or 5 arsenal more, and so on.

As a side effect of this change, normal Arsenal weapon costs could be increased to price most of them out of range of Supers, which is good -- Supers aren't supposed to be using mook weapons, especially not awesome ones like the Shishioh Blade or the Graviton Cannon. If you disagree with this and consider that a desirable outcome the system, it can still be allowed under this system by allowing Parts Slots to be traded in for 25 Arsenal each, thus making powerful normal Arsenal weapons still obtainable for Supers, but requiring the trade-in of multiple Parts slots, thus only being worth doing on highly specific builds (like ranged super).
Well now Super Robots have 4 arsenal space that allows for some back-up firepower but none of the heavy hitters. If you want Dancounga-style, then that's for what Real/Super multiclass is for.

Quote from: Siflux
Thank you for considering all this. Good game design is important to me, and I think this mod is a great base overall. I'm happy to be a player in this setting, there just still a few things to work on in my opinion. For things where you disagree with me, I'd really appreciate hearing your design intent, and your reason for doing things differently. I'm currently working off the assumption that your goal is basically 'like Super Robot Wars, but d20 and with all the benefits of the SRD behind it'.
100% correct on figuring out my goal. Thanks a lot for that help! Your scaling costs ideas was interesting, but eventually I believe modules/hardpoints are both simpler and closer to the source.

Quote
Also, the combining robot system in Mecha Mook doesn't seem to have been updated for the EN overhaul
Combining Robot updated.

Hopefully I'll be able to give a more detailed answer later today or tommorrow.
Really, the tl;dr is everything form weapon damage to cost should have had a balancing formula to it. Like cost specific, if you did say 1pt ammo, 2pts sensors, 4pts basic equipment, 6pts refined, you could balance all your costs. Later in post, you can inflated it to a 50~300 point system since the numbers them selves are arbitrary. But if you decided something should cost 225pts it should equal to something like a [basic (4 or 200pts) + 1/2 ammo (0.5 or 25pts)] and if it's not then you know it's cost needs a different value.
Siflux reminded me correctly that in SRW games Arsenal weapons and acessories consume different separate resources, and all of the acessories have the same cost.

Eeerr, Arcane Pilot has plenty of Divinations, from the humble Detect Magic to Locate Object to  Clairaudience/Clairvoyance to Locate Creature to True Seeing, several more all the way to Foresight.
The core problem is you started at the SRD list and then started cutting Spells out which ended up leaving a theme of patchwork (no scry until lv14?). Like you have Alarm sure, and all the other upgrades for personally sleeping safely at night but you can't Fabricate a series of walls to protect more than a half dozen people or Move Earth some trenches in for warfare. What you have is a mech sized magical plate that can hold dirt the caster's mech sized bare hands have to pick up using his mech sized shovel that deals minimal damage to dirt.  :P

Some of the cuts make sense for balance sake, but if you're looking to balance the List then it also needs to be balanced to what the other Classes can do. Like yeah maybe the Arcane Pilot gets the same bonus Feats Super/Real does, but so does the Real/Super and that's not going to change the fact the Real/Super have exclusive extras for attack countering. The Arcane (and divine) should also get their own alternatives too, specially if you feel players need it to begin with.
Arcane/Divine have spells and no maneuvers. Supers/Reals/Captains have maneuvers and no spells. And I'm pretty sure there's a lot of Immediate Action spells out there to pick if you want to go that way.

Why yes, the intention is for Arcane Pilots to specialize in a certain type of magic instead of every mage character knowing all of the uber spell ever without real effort. And any of the spells you mentioned are enough on their own to make the Arcane Pilot a MVP for the party.
>.>
You have a funny way of wanting Arcane Pilots to specialize in a limited report of Spells. For one thing they can't choose a Spell that supports their specialty until a level after they gain the new Spell Level and "Favorite Spell" always shows up a level before you can choose your actual favorite Spell so you always "favor" spells you hate using.
Eeerrr, you can change your Favored Spell at every Arcane Pilot level up. :psyduck.

Then as you're doing in the game you can get extra spells through a variety of items.
Yeah but Phantasm Star is a high powered game, some List snatching is expected, and Super Robot Wars the Campaign setting is not forced Gestated & high powered. :p
True, although I highly recommend the Gestalt bit, in particular so that Reals/Super pilots have something to do besides smashing face.

And really need to work on properly fleshing out that general fluff. Right now using this material is heavily dependant on the DM coming up with their own adventures/plot.

Actually been working bit by bit on creating a sample world based on our campaign so far, in particular how Parum developed and descended into total war, the different factions competing and how the Android Administration rose to power, while new technologies were researched and some planets of the system blowing up, but hard work is hard.

That being said you can set aside the differences in expected scale and look at the heart of it. Because I had to invest I wanted to increase the return, one thing led to another and in cause and effect Bahamut really doesn't have anything you'd call a cool item, since he's just a dragon on fire that spent most of his wealth trying to obtain Spells Arcane Pilot doesn't have.
Hadn't you said you didn't even spent most of Baha's money? :P

Anyway a bunch of knowledge boosters is still cooler than generic number boosters.

And that's ok in the build. The RPs been fun, next level I'm a lot less constrained with my buffs with got me to pick some more interesting ones which are still pretty new to me. But Bahamut & Phantasy Star aside, Arcane Pilot has some problems. Even the Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer gets Splat Spells. If you want the Arcane Pilot to really narrow in on some favorites, less choice isn't the solution but more. Like you could cut the default list some more so it's purely basic role fulfilling then triple the open space giving them at least three Spells of every level to pick.
Not sure if you mean spell level or Arcane Pilot but three spells per either is a nope.jpg. The super/real get only 20/19 maneuvers and some stances from a much more limited list and that's it.

Now Warmage/Beguiller/Dread Necro do get splat spells. From the splats they were printed on. So I guess I may continue the Phantasy Star conversions and turn their techniques into generic Arcane/Divine pilot spells and the game skills into feats those two classes can take as bonus.

The basic plan would be that those spells are divided into 6 main groups (Fire, Ice, Lighting, Wind, Light, Darkness) and they can all be cast with different actions from Immediate to 1 round. The longer you spend casting a spell the stronger it is. Each "element" then gets some feats to boost it.

When people are limited they always grab what can give them the most. Like in another lovely SorO analogy. If you're poor you walk into Walk-Mart and throw a bunch of Hamburger in the cart because you can cook that in all kinds of ways and Hamburger Helper literately sells pasta ideas you can create after visiting the baking & spice section. But if you have the money to spend, you might instead walk in and think I want Tacos and BBQ New York strips which just doesn't have Hamburger in every option the guy with more restrictive limits has. You don't have to pick Polymorph's ominous solutions if you can pick up a number of unique Transmutations you like. You don't have to pick up Orb of Acid if you have the spare room to pick up different elemental Spells or even more than one area one Spell. Etc.

You'll always have a narrow section of people that will try to abuse the system much like the rich guy that refuses to pay his taxes, but choice breeds the ability to select things that do not amount to the best swiss army knife.

I'll still rather write my own custom spells and feats than dig through over a dozen splats. And if then a player really wants something from splat X, they can take it.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 03, 2016, 11:08:23 AM
True, although I highly recommend the Gestalt bit, in particular so that Reals/Super pilots have something to do besides smashing face.


I dunno, my campaign is running without Gestalt, and everyone seems to be really enjoying it.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on November 03, 2016, 12:29:45 PM
Arcane/Divine have spells and no maneuvers. Supers/Reals/Captains have maneuvers and no spells. And I'm pretty sure there's a lot of Immediate Action spells out there to pick if you want to go that way.
Probably, but the point is nothing on the Arcane Pilot's List does. Having to spend your only 2nd level Slot choice on picking up something you really should have anyway and Super/Reals got two levels ago sucks, for Spells and Maneuvers to be comparable they have to be well, comparable.

And when it comes to spending money to fix things, you realize Real/Supers can buy Spell access to right?

Eeerrr, you can change your Favored Spell at every Arcane Pilot level up. :psyduck.
It's even in it's own paragraph and I still missed it  :banghead

Actually been working bit by bit on creating a sample world based on our campaign so far, in particular how Parum developed and descended into total war, the different factions competing and how the Android Administration rose to power, while new technologies were researched and some planets of the system blowing up, but hard work is hard.
Cool, need some help with the dragon side? I pretty much wrote the entire history of the Helsing family in my head, parts of it spun from your lore and the rest of it is pretty much how I do everything else. Like discovering of the Staff of Tongues for human transmutation, which excuses how your Monster Classes bypass biology btw, to how spells such as Teleport gave them a massive start in space exploration.

Hadn't you said you didn't even spent most of Baha's money? :P
Anyway a bunch of knowledge boosters is still cooler than generic number boosters.
It's like 14k and someone never told me how much that axe is worth anyway so until he does I'm just going to treat it as 0. So while I technically never spent all of Bahamut's money, I also am probably technically four thousand in the hole since a +3 is at least 18k :p

Also the +10 item on Knowledge[astronomy] is getting nixed anyway, someone was like you need Craft[explosions] instead and due to your campaign's Arsenal massively outpaced Divine Flame's output there was not point in spending the 10k on the item anymore.

Not sure if you mean spell level or Arcane Pilot but three spells per either is a nope.jpg. The super/real get only 20/19 maneuvers and some stances from a much more limited list and that's it.
Already anticipated that comment and I already  suggested cutting the "default" list down some more so you'd end up with either the same number of Spells or less, but the Player would have ones they like.  :)

Writing your own Spells may be the way you want to go but you already have a ton of stuff on your plate to alter, tweak, and balance before trying to introduce a bunch of Spells with no sight of where the lines are. Use what you have now and get it working first, and if it's in balance with D&D rather than it's own tune, you won't even have to rewrite Spells (just ban a few key ones).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 03, 2016, 02:18:31 PM
One thing that my players and I noticed about Combining Team is that it only allows for five person teams, and forces the combination to be the same every time. I feel this is a disservice to Getter Robo and Aquarion and the like (and even the SRX, to an extent). To this end, we’ve got some changes to suggest for Combining Team allowing both the Golion style combiners the feat currently allows and other styles of combiners as well, from the two pilot Godannar and the three pilot Getters, to the massive 15-ish pilot Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.


The feat would function mostly in the same manner, but could be taken by any pilot class, not just  mecha mooks, so long as all intended pilots were taking it at the same time.


In addition, each member of the combiner team would choose their own set of upgrade points rather than having one specific set chosen for the combiner no matter what. The number of upgrade points available would be equal to the combined team size. These upgrades would be the extra ones in use when that pilot is the lead pilot. This would allow for things like Getter or Aquarion with different capabilities depending on which pilot is currently in charge. As an example, the current mecha mook team has five pilots, so they get five upgrade points as a bonus while combined. A three person combiner like Getter Robo would have three upgrade points as a bonus while combined. A 15 person combiner like Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann would have 15 upgrade points as a bonus while combined. In all three cases, the lead pilot would choose which upgrades those points would be spent on, but each pilot could have a different selection, making pilot swapping relevant.


If taken by a team of non mook characters, each member of the team would get +2 HP/level for their mecha. The combined robot would have the average base HP of the components, plus the combined bonus HP that the team got (so it would have the average base HP of the components, +2*number of pilots/level). The level used would be the average of super pilot levels in the team, which would also determine upgrade access to the combined team. These upgrades would still be split evenly among the team members. As an example, the current mecha mook team will always have the same super pilot levels among the pilots, so it will use that super pilot level for bonus HP and super upgrades. A three person combiner like Getter Robo with two pilots at super pilot level 4 and one at super pilot level 7 would have an average super pilot level of 5, so would use that for bonus HP and super upgrades. A fifteen pilot combiner like Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann with 5 level 1 super pilots, 9 level 3 super pilots, and a level 15 super pilot would have an average super pilot level of 3, and so would use that level for bonus HP and super upgrades.


As an additional change, it was felt that the prevention of taking Relationship feats by members of a combiner team is a little bit silly, so that restriction would be removed, though of course they would not function while the team is combined. This would allow team members to have relationship bonuses with each other while not combined, but wouldn’t give the combined team an undue advantage by having relationship bonuses that can’t be attacked.




Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 03, 2016, 07:37:59 PM
True, although I highly recommend the Gestalt bit, in particular so that Reals/Super pilots have something to do besides smashing face.


I dunno, my campaign is running without Gestalt, and everyone seems to be really enjoying it.
Then I guess I get to pat myself on the back for things turning out better than expected! :P

One thing that my players and I noticed about Combining Team is that it only allows for five person teams, and forces the combination to be the same every time. I feel this is a disservice to Getter Robo and Aquarion and the like (and even the SRX, to an extent). To this end, we’ve got some changes to suggest for Combining Team allowing both the Golion style combiners the feat currently allows and other styles of combiners as well, from the two pilot Godannar and the three pilot Getters, to the massive 15-ish pilot Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.


The feat would function mostly in the same manner, but could be taken by any pilot class, not just  mecha mooks, so long as all intended pilots were taking it at the same time.


In addition, each member of the combiner team would choose their own set of upgrade points rather than having one specific set chosen for the combiner no matter what. The number of upgrade points available would be equal to the combined team size. These upgrades would be the extra ones in use when that pilot is the lead pilot. This would allow for things like Getter or Aquarion with different capabilities depending on which pilot is currently in charge. As an example, the current mecha mook team has five pilots, so they get five upgrade points as a bonus while combined. A three person combiner like Getter Robo would have three upgrade points as a bonus while combined. A 15 person combiner like Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann would have 15 upgrade points as a bonus while combined. In all three cases, the lead pilot would choose which upgrades those points would be spent on, but each pilot could have a different selection, making pilot swapping relevant.


If taken by a team of non mook characters, each member of the team would get +2 HP/level for their mecha. The combined robot would have the average base HP of the components, plus the combined bonus HP that the team got (so it would have the average base HP of the components, +2*number of pilots/level). The level used would be the average of super pilot levels in the team, which would also determine upgrade access to the combined team. These upgrades would still be split evenly among the team members. As an example, the current mecha mook team will always have the same super pilot levels among the pilots, so it will use that super pilot level for bonus HP and super upgrades. A three person combiner like Getter Robo with two pilots at super pilot level 4 and one at super pilot level 7 would have an average super pilot level of 5, so would use that for bonus HP and super upgrades. A fifteen pilot combiner like Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann with 5 level 1 super pilots, 9 level 3 super pilots, and a level 15 super pilot would have an average super pilot level of 3, and so would use that level for bonus HP and super upgrades.


As an additional change, it was felt that the prevention of taking Relationship feats by members of a combiner team is a little bit silly, so that restriction would be removed, though of course they would not function while the team is combined. This would allow team members to have relationship bonuses with each other while not combined, but wouldn’t give the combined team an undue advantage by having relationship bonuses that can’t be attacked.

Hmmm, yes, Combining mecha is somewhat drafty and limited at the moment. So, let's say, something like this:

(click to show/hide)

You'll notice that I left out the "+2HP per level and team members gain extra upgrades while separated". That's because those were meant for mecha mooks that have crappy machines. But if the members are actual real/super robots, then they don't need the extra stats while separated. Otherwise, this would be a must-take even if you never plan on combining, gets you some extra HP and multiple Upgrades for just one feat.

Combining Team would remain its own separate feat for both Mecha Mooks and representing the 5-team combining robots that have a single form like Voltes/Combatler V.

Arcane/Divine have spells and no maneuvers. Supers/Reals/Captains have maneuvers and no spells. And I'm pretty sure there's a lot of Immediate Action spells out there to pick if you want to go that way.
Probably, but the point is nothing on the Arcane Pilot's List does. Having to spend your only 2nd level Slot choice on picking up something you really should have anyway and Super/Reals got two levels ago sucks, for Spells and Maneuvers to be comparable they have to be well, comparable.
Well not necessarily, otherwise they wouldn't have the same name to start with.

In particular hotblooded warriors/grizzled veterans are supposed to be more adept at suddenly reacting to danger than charismatic reality benders, while said reality benders are more adept at bending reality to their whims (when nobody is shooting/stabbing them directly at least).

And when it comes to spending money to fix things, you realize Real/Supers can buy Spell access to right?
You can also buy maneuver items. Anomander loves doing it.

Actually been working bit by bit on creating a sample world based on our campaign so far, in particular how Parum developed and descended into total war, the different factions competing and how the Android Administration rose to power, while new technologies were researched and some planets of the system blowing up, but hard work is hard.
Cool, need some help with the dragon side? I pretty much wrote the entire history of the Helsing family in my head, parts of it spun from your lore and the rest of it is pretty much how I do everything else. Like discovering of the Staff of Tongues for human transmutation, which excuses how your Monster Classes bypass biology btw, to how spells such as Teleport gave them a massive start in space exploration.
Yeah, I must say I got quite interested in your backstory of dragon nobles in SPACE! and would definetely want to make them a distinctive part of the setting. In my drafts past history there's a member of the Helsing family that would've fallen on disgrace (and thus erased from the family's records to don't interfere with your backstory)  that ended up in Parum and built her own faction that ended playing a significant part on the war. Something ends weaponing a nearby planet to drop it on Parum but another faction leader sacrifices themselves for mutual destruction, saving Parum yet also leaving the way clear for the Android armies to take over.

Not sure if you mean spell level or Arcane Pilot but three spells per either is a nope.jpg. The super/real get only 20/19 maneuvers and some stances from a much more limited list and that's it.
Already anticipated that comment and I already  suggested cutting the "default" list down some more so you'd end up with either the same number of Spells or less, but the Player would have ones they like.  :)

Writing your own Spells may be the way you want to go but you already have a ton of stuff on your plate to alter, tweak, and balance before trying to introduce a bunch of Spells with no sight of where the lines are. Use what you have now and get it working first, and if it's in balance with D&D rather than it's own tune, you won't even have to rewrite Spells (just ban a few key ones).

That would be a lot of bans.

Anyway I know from experience that one of the most annoying things with D&D spellcasters is when they start to stack spells like there's no tomorrow. Just throwing a dispel in combat can grind the game to a halt. If there's 3 chooseable spells per level, chances are that a lot of them will end being buffs and that's bad even if they're aren't broken per se.

Plus, mechas are supposed to be the stars of the show here, not glorified magic enhancers. If the caster pilots end up "as regular D&D casters, just now affect bigger areas", then that's a failure on my book. There's a reason the Divine Pilot still gets guns and the Arcane Pilot still gets punches and familiars with guns and they both get spirits and Pilot Feats. They're both supposed to don't rely fully on spells and still get down and dirty now and then.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 03, 2016, 07:44:18 PM
Hmmm, yes, Combining mecha is somewhat drafty and limited at the moment. So, let's say, something like this:

(click to show/hide)

You'll notice that I left out the "+2HP per level and team members gain extra upgrades while separated". That's because those were meant for mecha mooks that have crappy machines. But if the members are actual real/super robots, then they don't need the extra stats while separated. Otherwise, this would be a must-take even if you never plan on combining, gets you some extra HP and multiple Upgrades for just one feat.

Combining Team would remain its own separate feat for both Mecha Mooks and representing the 5-team combining robots that have a single form like Voltes/Combatler V.


That looks great, though I did spot a few typos (it says Pilot Size where I'm fairly sure it should say Pilot Level, for determining the upgrades available)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 03, 2016, 08:32:15 PM
Heats? I approve.

Now get the song out of my head. :P#

Quote
It counts as having the average Pilot Size of its members for determining what those "temporary" upgrades can be. 

Typo found.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 03, 2016, 09:01:17 PM
Oh, also, Humungous Ship feat says it gives the battleship 25 more arsenal. should that be another hardpoint?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on November 04, 2016, 01:45:05 AM
You can also buy maneuver items. Anomander loves doing it.
Yeah but technically speaking you cannot use UMD to meet a Maneuver's requirements. So for example, you need to step into the gray area, that some DMS will required permission to even do, of merging two Crowns of the White Raven together if you wanted to learn Iron Heart Surge. Your Maneuvers probably unintentionally (and his probably intentionally) left out those requirements so they didn't have to.

All of that lovely set up inviting exploitation of your homebrew in ways WotC intended to prevent there is still an unfair price adjustment. Like for 12,000 gold a Super Pilot can run around with Persisted Haste on every single round both in and out of combat, all day, for every day during the year. For 15,000gp an Arcane Pilot can use That won't work twice! once per Encounter.

Anyway, as far as plot I'll probably see if I'm awake Sunday and type up a bunch. It may just end up being a bunch of short notes.

That would be a lot of bans.
Oh it's not that bad. Your homebrew already ignores immunities while offering up new immunities, it pretends Ploymorph doesn't exist, deals like ten times the damage D&D's scale does, and you like handling out extra turns too. I'm sure most of what you think you need to ban I could probably find a Class Feature that does the same thing but better.  :P

Like for example since you fear buffs for some reason, in D&D the caster is commonly portrayed as being less armored than the mundane, for example Mage Armor only gives +4 to AC but Full-Plate is double that. In your system the caster's mech is still physically portrayed as weak with less AC, but also less DR, and he gets zero equipment, and the actual armor/shields grant additional bonuses like Damage Reduction, and the caster doesn't even get Mage Armor to compensate.

In general your homebrew really isn't about fairly balancing the classes and avoiding caster surpremacy, but trying to make unfairly everything more powerful than vancian casting and some times that comes across a little odd. Like how many of your Classes grant an Ability Bonus to AC? All of them? But Mage Armor got cut, really?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 04, 2016, 09:32:05 AM
Hmmm, yes, Combining mecha is somewhat drafty and limited at the moment. So, let's say, something like this:

(click to show/hide)

You'll notice that I left out the "+2HP per level and team members gain extra upgrades while separated". That's because those were meant for mecha mooks that have crappy machines. But if the members are actual real/super robots, then they don't need the extra stats while separated. Otherwise, this would be a must-take even if you never plan on combining, gets you some extra HP and multiple Upgrades for just one feat.

Combining Team would remain its own separate feat for both Mecha Mooks and representing the 5-team combining robots that have a single form like Voltes/Combatler V.


That looks great, though I did spot a few typos (it says Pilot Size where I'm fairly sure it should say Pilot Level, for determining the upgrades available)

Fixed the typo and added it to main feats section.

Oh, also, Humungous Ship feat says it gives the battleship 25 more arsenal. should that be another hardpoint?

Fixed as well.

You can also buy maneuver items. Anomander loves doing it.
Yeah but technically speaking you cannot use UMD to meet a Maneuver's requirements. So for example, you need to step into the gray area, that some DMS will required permission to even do, of merging two Crowns of the White Raven together if you wanted to learn Iron Heart Surge.
Doesn't UMD allows you to simulate class features?

Your Maneuvers probably unintentionally (and his probably intentionally) left out those requirements so they didn't have to.
Now that you mention that, several of my schools do have anti-itemization clauses.

All of that lovely set up inviting exploitation of your homebrew in ways WotC intended to prevent there is still an unfair price adjustment. Like for 12,000 gold a Super Pilot can run around with Persisted Haste on every single round both in and out of combat, all day, for every day during the year. For 15,000gp an Arcane Pilot can use That won't work twice! once per Encounter.
That's an extremely biased scenario.
1-Haste is 3rd level, That Won't Work Twice is 4th.
2-Maneuver items are the same price for maneuvers between level 4 and 6. So you could get a 6th level Counter for the same price.
3-An all-day Haste item should technically  cost 30k gold (3rd spell level x CL 5 x 2000 GP). I'm sure there's plenty of ways of cheesing the Haste item cost down, but then so there are ways to cheese down the cost of the maneuver item.

That would be a lot of bans.
Oh it's not that bad. Your homebrew already ignores immunities while offering up new immunities, it pretends Ploymorph doesn't exist, deals like ten times the damage D&D's scale does, and you like handling out extra turns too. I'm sure most of what you think you need to ban I could probably find a Class Feature that does the same thing but better.  :P
Thing is, reals/supers get less than three Class features per level.

Also for "damage scale", there's already things like uberchargers and split bows hasted archers. That you often bring up. Heck, a couple pages ago you kept complaing about mecha weapons dealing less damage as size-scaled normal D&D weapons! :p

However another thing that makes casters uber is that they get to outright ignore HP in several ways. Fort or die, Reflex or Die, Will or Die, teleport or die, obscure save or die. Doesn't matter if you have 1 HP or a million along a billion DR. And casters can also make themselves annoyingly impossible to hit (illusions, expendable minions, walls, you name it). If you can target them at all. Once more, doesn't matter if your attack deals a zillion damage if the caster is behind multiple layers of of illusions, barriers, fogs and tentacles each demanding different measures to get through, none of which are damage/to hit bonus.

And it is my experience that any half-competent player will diversify their spell selection as much as possible given half a chance. They're not gonna spend their 3 spells per level on nukes, they're also gonna grab minions and obscure defenses and even more obscure attack means.

Less spell selection is the way of dealing with that. It's the only way of dealing with that.

Like for example since you fear buffs for some reason, in D&D the caster is commonly portrayed as being less armored than the mundane, for example Mage Armor only gives +4 to AC but Full-Plate is double that. In your system the caster's mech is still physically portrayed as weak with less AC, but also less DR, and he gets zero equipment, and the actual armor/shields grant additional bonuses like Damage Reduction, and the caster doesn't even get Mage Armor to compensate.

In general your homebrew really isn't about fairly balancing the classes and avoiding caster surpremacy, but trying to make unfairly everything more powerful than vancian casting and some times that comes across a little odd. Like how many of your Classes grant an Ability Bonus to AC? All of them? But Mage Armor got cut, really?
Funny you pick that example, since Chokabam Armor is a whooping +1 Armor AC bonus. A Real Robot will only get Mage Armor level protection at Arsenal level IV with Ceramic Armor, aka at 10th character level. So yes, an Arcane Pilot who learns Mage Armor means a significant AC bonus for the whole party for half a campaign, and also allows the other pilots to spend their limited Hardpoints on other stuff. Sure, the Arsenal Armors grant some minor DR and Fort bonus, but the AC is still their main advantage.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on November 04, 2016, 12:39:49 PM
Doesn't UMD allows you to simulate class features?
Yes. The Maneuvers Class Feature, and through it per Caster's & Lists, which Disciplines are on your "Class List" if anything were to ask if you have access to White Raven should be included. Maneuvers Ready & Stances Known are also Class Features. But knowing any specific number of White Raven Maneuvers, not so much.

More importantly it's not the item that has the requirement of knowing them, it's the Maneuver.

That's an extremely biased scenario.
1-Haste is 3rd level, That Won't Work Twice is 4th.
Oop, meant to use two lv3s. Ok, well just use the Trapsmith List so Haste is 1st level and that'll make it all better. :p

And "cheesing" the cost down, if you decided crafting should reduce prices or Wish should give free items, applies to both. But you can't exactly find a Maneuver at a lower level on another Martial Adept's List outside of finding strictly more powerful Maneuvers in even more powerful homebrew.

Also for "damage scale", there's already things like uberchargers and split bows hasted archers. That you often bring up. Heck, a couple pages ago you kept complaing about mecha weapons dealing less damage as size-scaled normal D&D weapons! :p
No. That's not what I said and you know it. So not funny. Besides, after hating ranged you turned things into a flying fighter vs Terrasqua fight anyway so whatevs.

Anyway, you're getting shifty there so you're probably realizing your getting backed into a corner. Like banning Polymorph because it's broken and then admitting Ubercharging is broken, but instead you use Ubercharging as an excuse of validating instead of realizing that it and anything based off it should be banned to. Likewise you can't really complain about CC effects, you just threw a party-Grappling effect that ignored FoM, had Dimensional Anchor, didn't even need an Attack Roll, ignored Miss Chances, and was from something so massive I believe one of our party members couldn't even make a Check. At least you can Jaunt out of Solid Fog, or ignore it with FoM, or brute force your way through it with multiple Move Actions (or stuff like Sudden Leap). Like I said "ignores immunities while offering up new immunities", in this case your homebrew Grapple is virtually immune to all forms of defense against it and immune to all but one way to get out of it.

And why on earth would you ban tentacles anyway?
I've seen your choice in images for your homebrew. It'd fit, into things perfectly.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 05, 2016, 12:17:58 AM
So, Oslecamo, just noticed a typo in Born to Fight that changes the meaning. it says "You can also inflict nondamage effects (both ill or benefical) in a mecha even if you're on foot and smaller than them."

It should probably say "You can also inflict nondamage effects (both ill or benefical) on a mecha even if you're on foot and smaller than them."
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 05, 2016, 01:05:23 AM
Stuff

The numbers on the Mob stuff don't seem to be where they should be, reasonably. Not part of the mecha rules, though.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on November 05, 2016, 01:39:41 AM
The numbers on the Mob stuff don't seem to be where they should be, reasonably. Not part of the mecha rules, though.
On the Spell banning we're not exactly talking about Super Robot Wars per se, more of Ols's concepts in general.

And I know it's part of his Improved Monster Classes. The Darkweaver, Bebilith, Gray Linnorm, Animated Object (most likely what the mini mechs were), Roper, Tendriculos, Leng Spider, Shambling Mound, Wild Hunt, Ice Golem, Half-Golem, & the Greel (plus a few others) all go the extreme of Dimensional Anchor, nearly every single one of them negate Freedom of Movement, and reach Large or bigger Sizes. The ones that hit Huge auto-win their Grapple Checks vs Medium Creatures effectively making them inescapable unavoidable TPK attacks unless your Touch AC is pumped to unimaginable heights which is about the only way to deal with it in sort of applying more Ols's homebrew to the situation (like super's you can't touch me counters). And this is just one facet of Ols's love for totally raping people in a game, and some how he wants to preach Save-or-Dies are terrible because they at least offer a Save. >.>

His tweaks are not more balanced, just different and arguably less so.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 05, 2016, 11:44:09 AM
The numbers on the Mob stuff don't seem to be where they should be, reasonably. Not part of the mecha rules, though.
On the Spell banning we're not exactly talking about Super Robot Wars per se, more of Ols's concepts in general.

And I know it's part of his Improved Monster Classes. The Darkweaver, Bebilith, Gray Linnorm, Animated Object (most likely what the mini mechs were), Roper, Tendriculos, Leng Spider, Shambling Mound, Wild Hunt, Ice Golem, Half-Golem, & the Greel (plus a few others) all go the extreme of Dimensional Anchor, nearly every single one of them negate Freedom of Movement, and reach Large or bigger Sizes. The ones that hit Huge auto-win their Grapple Checks vs Medium Creatures effectively making them inescapable unavoidable TPK attacks unless your Touch AC is pumped to unimaginable heights which is about the only way to deal with it in sort of applying more Ols's homebrew to the situation (like super's you can't touch me counters). And this is just one facet of Ols's love for totally raping people in a game, and some how he wants to preach Save-or-Dies are terrible because they at least offer a Save. >.>

His tweaks are not more balanced, just different and arguably less so.

Maybe if Freedom of Movement didn't *completely negate* an entire combat style it wouldn't be important to ignore it? If perhaps it only provided a bonus to defensive grapple rather than just completely ignoring grapple? Sorry, that's just a thing that bugs me. Casters already too strong, and they can just ignore entire builds with single spells
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 05, 2016, 11:58:22 AM
So, Oslecamo, just noticed a typo in Born to Fight that changes the meaning. it says "You can also inflict nondamage effects (both ill or benefical) in a mecha even if you're on foot and smaller than them."

It should probably say "You can also inflict nondamage effects (both ill or benefical) on a mecha even if you're on foot and smaller than them."
I'm not a native english speaker. I'm afraid that type of detail goes beyond my grammar knowledge and so if you could explain the difference in this case I would be thankful.

The numbers on the Mob stuff don't seem to be where they should be, reasonably. Not part of the mecha rules, though.
On the Spell banning we're not exactly talking about Super Robot Wars per se, more of Ols's concepts in general.

And I know it's part of his Improved Monster Classes. The Darkweaver, Bebilith, Gray Linnorm, Animated Object (most likely what the mini mechs were), Roper, Tendriculos, Leng Spider, Shambling Mound, Wild Hunt, Ice Golem, Half-Golem, & the Greel (plus a few others) all go the extreme of Dimensional Anchor, nearly every single one of them negate Freedom of Movement, and reach Large or bigger Sizes. The ones that hit Huge auto-win their Grapple Checks vs Medium Creatures effectively making them inescapable unavoidable TPK attacks unless your Touch AC is pumped to unimaginable heights which is about the only way to deal with it in sort of applying more Ols's homebrew to the situation (like super's you can't touch me counters). And this is just one facet of Ols's love for totally raping people in a game, and some how he wants to preach Save-or-Dies are terrible because they at least offer a Save. >.>

His tweaks are not more balanced, just different and arguably less so.

What's the save against whifing your grapple attempts on Mirror Images?
What's the save of automatically failing your grapple against Heart of Water at 5th level (3 levels before the ignore-FoM of my monster classes comes online).
What's the save against trying to reach the mage's that flying above you?
What's the save against abrupt jaunt? (6-7 levels before most people can get Dimensional Anchor).
What's the save against the caster just using magic to turn themselves even bigger with a massive Str boost and auto-beat everybody else's grapple? Even if polymorph's out the table, plenty of other buffs for that around.

By level 8 ignoring Freedom of Movement and Dimensional Anchor is the bare minimum for a grappling build not to be rendered irrevant by the mage's secondary abilities, or even abilities they had from the start of the game. And even then it's an uphill struggle. You still have to keep up with the mage's superior mobility and get through their illusions and then pray they didn't debuff you into a wimp nor buffed themselves into godlike mode.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 05, 2016, 12:02:36 PM
So, Oslecamo, just noticed a typo in Born to Fight that changes the meaning. it says "You can also inflict nondamage effects (both ill or benefical) in a mecha even if you're on foot and smaller than them."

It should probably say "You can also inflict nondamage effects (both ill or benefical) on a mecha even if you're on foot and smaller than them."
I'm not a native english speaker. I'm afraid that type of detail goes beyond my grammar knowledge and so if you could explain the difference in this case I would be thankful.


The first case says you can inflict those effects while inside a mech, the second case says you can inflict those effects to a mech. I've noticed you also make this mistake when talking about stances a lot. On generally refers to being above something, or doing something to something, while in means inside of, or using. Does that help?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Rekmond on November 05, 2016, 08:46:59 PM
actually the odd wording on the first seems to imply that you can inflict an effect on a person inside a mech? Because "In a mecha" and "While on foot and smaller" are entirely different things to my understanding.

Using 'On a mecha' implies that the effect is directed at the mecha itself, even if you are ant sized in comparison.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 05, 2016, 11:16:55 PM
actually the odd wording on the first seems to imply that you can inflict an effect on a person inside a mech? Because "In a mecha" and "While on foot and smaller" are entirely different things to my understanding.

Using 'On a mecha' implies that the effect is directed at the mecha itself, even if you are ant sized in comparison.

Yeah, but there's nothing currently stopping you from affecting people inside a mecha anyway, only the mecha itself
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on November 05, 2016, 11:32:51 PM
I think a mecha blocks line of effect and sight to the pilot, no?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Rekmond on November 05, 2016, 11:35:33 PM
I think a mecha blocks line of effect and sight to the pilot, no?

As far as I know.

makes it really annoying to hit your target (cockpit) with that quiver of nice Brilliant Energy Arrows.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on November 06, 2016, 01:56:02 AM
Maybe if Freedom of Movement didn't *completely negate* an entire combat style it wouldn't be important to ignore it?
Who said Grapple was a "combat style"? It's an optional attack, one of four special types excluding what attacks are supposed to do, that all creatures in the game can use and PCs have the biggest disadvantage in this area compared to larger creatures that have a huge advantage. Immunity to Grapple is a balancing mechanic designed to increase the survivability of PCs.

Casters already too strong, and they can just ignore entire builds with single spells
Actually, most of everyone's top protection Spells such Protection From Evil, Death Ward, Mindblank, Anti-Magic Field, Dispel, and yes Freedom of Movement because Grapple is just one tiny aspect of it, and so on are all anti-caster things that a mundane typically doesn't even care if his target has.

But they in every single way make that mundane more effective at dealing with caster than if he couldn't use any of those and that is utterly inarguable. Banning them actually makes casters even more powerful than you already perceive them to be.



I guess it's Q&A time.
Q: What's the save against whifing your grapple attempts on Mirror Images?
A: Blindsense, totally negates Mirror Image since the figments relay on sight, and your Mechs can all have it.
Also Scent which is available as a 1st level Tiger Claw Stance and trained dogs.

Q: What's the save of automatically failing your grapple against Heart of Water at 5th level?
A: Seeing how you've literally chosen to ice sake up hill to prove how badass you can optimize, try optimizing some more.
Also your Attack Action just made them burn a 4th level Spell which is a pretty fair trade seeing how you probably get more than four of those per day, or in a single Full-Attack. And if you were seriously about Grapple you'd probably have an Improved Grab like ability. So the the attempted Grapple is actually just an added bonus after dealing your full damage and trying to kill them anyway.

Q: What's the save against trying to reach the mage's that flying above you?
A1: Remind Ols to stop hating ranged weapons before he forgets they exist.
A2: Try flying after them using a flying mount that costs less than 200gp and lasts longer than five minutes.

Q: What's the save against abrupt jaunt?
A: If you're using a Ranged Weapon, just continue to shoot them in the face anyway. It's almost like ranged weapons are a very important and integral part of balancing the game or something. If you're melee, seeing how this is a very specific Class Feature that one and only one Class gets in the entire game I'll just throw out a Feat to counter it, Martial Study[sudden leap]. Also, than range on that is only 10ft right? Reach+5ft step or the 10ft step Training dummy work too.

Q: What's the save against the caster just using magic to turn themselves even bigger with a massive Str boost?
A: Giggle manically at how stupid the player is. Then, if he wasted an action on it, stab him in the face. If he Persisted, then it's probably a high powered game where you can buy your own Str Boosts and stab him in the face anyway. Otherwise, apply liberal usage a Ring of Freedom of Movement which is one of the contributing factors to why Spellcasters should not use Polymorph to turn into brutes and try to pretend they are a Martial Adept.

I'm not necessarily saying D&D is balanced. However this thread has taught me that you are extremely short sighted. You don't even pay attention to over half of the rules because they don't thematically appeal to you, you don't view the rules as a whole, you can't see how things connect, you don't even try to follow the chain reaction that happens each time you alter a rule, and perhaps the greatest thing of all; you do not create a plan or even envision the end goal before approaching a subject. Like if you wanted creatures to bypass a mundane's anti-supernatural gear to reinforce caster supremacy, why didn't you at least try to remain consistent? Every other immune-bypasser respects immunity and nerfs it into a bonus so why doesn't FoM in your homebrew just negate Size benefits as it's type of bonus?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 06, 2016, 02:34:45 AM
Updated the Mecha Engineer to the new hardpoint system. Added a restriction on accessories now since the penalties are out. Added the volatile weapon option as well. Maintenance/Reinforce now grant additional support options by allowing the engineer to use the kit options on other mechas with a standard action at touch range.


@Osle
Sentient upgrades: Does Imprint implies by "stats" that it gets only the ability scores of the pilot or is it meant to include all his bonuses to just about everything, as what may be granted by class features (which aren't imprinted). Supporting mentions that the bonus is granted to a pilot currently piloting it with an immediate action, but it can only act while the pilot isn't inside the mecha. Usually you need to be within the mecha to be piloting it. Unless by "currently piloting it" it refers to the ownership of the mecha, or the last pilot to have piloted it. It isn't clear.

Built-in weapons: Just to clarify, when a mecha gets an arsenal weapon, is it built-in or treated as a regular weapon? I've always assumed arsenal weapons aren't built-in. I now also recall that you also stated once that a mecha doesn't get unarmed strikes... would a pilot gestalting with Monk or similar then get no mecha kungfu skills? I've seen a lot of mecha do martial arts, is all.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 06, 2016, 03:16:33 AM
Updated the Mecha Engineer to the new hardpoint system. Added a restriction on accessories now since the penalties are out. Added the volatile weapon option as well. Maintenance/Reinforce now grant additional support options by allowing the engineer to use the kit options on other mechas with a standard action at touch range.
Any plans to write Custom Soul Accessories (as mentioned in the Soul of the Mechanic feat), or are those still a long way off?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 06, 2016, 12:31:28 PM
I might. There's plenty more to add to it though I'd likely have to read a whole bunch of reference material for inspiration and names. Some branches need more options too so I'll probably focus on those already there before adding a whole new one. Ideally there would be 2-4 options per arsenal level depending on the branch, so as you can see I'm still pretty under.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 06, 2016, 10:46:09 PM
We just tested out HEATS in my campaign as an opponent, and we had some thoughts on it.
It’s not something the GM should use in a synchronous game (i.e. not play by post) if they intend to make use of the transforming aspect. I found it incredibly tedious to switch back and forth between the different forms. Don’t get me wrong, I really enjoyed it, it’s just that it took up a lot of time (the combat lasted about twice as long as a normal combat despite having only one effective opponent).
Also, it resulted in a question. Can spirits like Prayer (which affect “you or your mech”) affect other pilots in the same mech?

And from my players:
Quote from: Mecha Engineer player
Feat worked well mechanically. Action economy was a good tradeoff for having multiple spirit pools and more HP. After fighting against it, I’m excited to gattai up with the rest of my party. No issues with the feat, no suggestions to make on it.

Quote from: Arcane Pilot player
Feat use synergizes very well. Letting multiple spirits effect one mech is evil, but cool. The prayer question comes from my actions; I did a small amount of debuffing on individuals pilots and only one had prayer apparently. Now, semi related question (happened during combat): Since a spectral hand is incorporeal, can it be used to target individual pilots? In game I used it to touch a pilot that was currently not piloting the mech.

Quote from: Super Pilot player
The versatility that the multi-form HEATS brought to the game was a lot of fun, but it took a looooong time to play. The increased effective spirit pool meant that they were active the whole time, while the party spent a lot more time saving up EN and SP. Overall I think the reduced action economy for more power and options is a fair tradeoff

Also, there's a dodge booster in every accessory grade except 3. is it intentional that grade 3 doesn't have one?

And Anomander, is it intentional that Mecha Engineer's Energy Shield is just plain better than the G Wall at arsenal VI?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 07, 2016, 11:14:50 AM
Quote
And Anomander, is it intentional that Mecha Engineer's Energy Shield is just plain better than the G Wall at arsenal VI?
Yes. At Arsenal VI there is already an accessory that grants G-Wall. I could give it a different twist at VI too instead.
Also, updated Maintenance and Reinforce since the support arsenal options were just changed to be usable on other mechas at range by default. They now grant extra range with them.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 09, 2016, 12:41:23 AM
Oslecamo, I've got a couple questions about various transforming robots. So, supers without fly speeds gain a fly speed equal to land speed if in jet mode. Fair enough. it's +50% (and Perfect) if they already have a fly speed. That sounds reasonable. Lets take a look at transforming reals. Holy crap the Astelion gets a fivefold increase in speed with its jet mode. The Wildraubtier gets its speed multiplied by 7.5. Sure, they're limited to only built in weapons in jet mode...but Super Robots are even more limited, to just one built in weapon. Supers get +4 dodge and -2 nat armor, while Reals get +2 doge. Is there a particular reason why Reals get such overwhelmingly better jet modes? I mean, sure, Supers tend to have better in-builts, but the Astelion's Star Breakers, at least, are incredibly good. I don't particularly mind (as it hasn't come up in my campaign, and as we don't actually have any normal Real Pilots, it's unlikely to), but I would like to know why this is the case, and if it's intentional.

While I'm on the topic of transforming Reals, can we get an option for generics to transform? I kinda want to make the Valhawk  :)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Rekmond on November 09, 2016, 01:03:57 AM
Personally I think part of it is the Real vs Super ideology. Reals are all about superior gear, there's no arguing that. That is the product of tons of R&D and testing before it ever gets implemented full scale.

A Super Pilot will have lower standards because they often don't wait for something to be completely cleared, they need it NOW, and will keep it working with blood, sweat, and tears.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 09, 2016, 06:17:49 AM
We just tested out HEATS in my campaign as an opponent, and we had some thoughts on it.
It’s not something the GM should use in a synchronous game (i.e. not play by post) if they intend to make use of the transforming aspect. I found it incredibly tedious to switch back and forth between the different forms. Don’t get me wrong, I really enjoyed it, it’s just that it took up a lot of time (the combat lasted about twice as long as a normal combat despite having only one effective opponent).
Out of curiosity, did you stat up the different transformations beforehand? If you're doing it on the fly yeah it's gonna take time.

Also, it resulted in a question.
 Can spirits like Prayer (which affect “you or your mech”) affect other pilots in the same mech?
Well before they technically couldn't but a team pilot patching others with Prayer is intended so updated that.


Quote from: Arcane Pilot player
Feat use synergizes very well. Letting multiple spirits effect one mech is evil, but cool. The prayer question comes from my actions; I did a small amount of debuffing on individuals pilots and only one had prayer apparently. Now, semi related question (happened during combat): Since a spectral hand is incorporeal, can it be used to target individual pilots? In game I used it to touch a pilot that was currently not piloting the mech.
That's something that's up to the DM and situatin. You would need something to know where the pilot is located and stuff.

Quote from: Super Pilot player
The versatility that the multi-form HEATS brought to the game was a lot of fun, but it took a looooong time to play. The increased effective spirit pool meant that they were active the whole time, while the party spent a lot more time saving up EN and SP. Overall I think the reduced action economy for more power and options is a fair tradeoff
Thanks! Always great to hear play reports.

Quote from: Super Pilot player
Also, there's a dodge booster in every accessory grade except 3. is it intentional that grade 3 doesn't have one?
Fixed.

Oslecamo, I've got a couple questions about various transforming robots. So, supers without fly speeds gain a fly speed equal to land speed if in jet mode. Fair enough. it's +50% (and Perfect) if they already have a fly speed. That sounds reasonable. Lets take a look at transforming reals. Holy crap the Astelion gets a fivefold increase in speed with its jet mode. The Wildraubtier gets its speed multiplied by 7.5. Sure, they're limited to only built in weapons in jet mode...but Super Robots are even more limited, to just one built in weapon. Supers get +4 dodge and -2 nat armor, while Reals get +2 doge. Is there a particular reason why Reals get such overwhelmingly better jet modes? I mean, sure, Supers tend to have better in-builts, but the Astelion's Star Breakers, at least, are incredibly good. I don't particularly mind (as it hasn't come up in my campaign, and as we don't actually have any normal Real Pilots, it's unlikely to), but I would like to know why this is the case, and if it's intentional.
Intentional since "gotta go fast" is something a lot more characteristic of Real Robot shows. Yes sure Supers do it sometimes, but it's only to get closer faster and then melee it out.


While I'm on the topic of transforming Reals, can we get an option for generics to transform? I kinda want to make the Valhawk  :)
No to transforming generics. There's multiclass with super robot for that. But added Valhawk at grade III. And R-1 at grade I. May as well stat up a transforming real for each level.

Personally I think part of it is the Real vs Super ideology. Reals are all about superior gear, there's no arguing that. That is the product of tons of R&D and testing before it ever gets implemented full scale.

A Super Pilot will have lower standards because they often don't wait for something to be completely cleared, they need it NOW, and will keep it working with blood, sweat, and tears.
Heh, true in some cases, but the reverse in others.

Several Super shows have the titular robot being something really old that was refined for decades/centuries waiting for the big bad to show up. Heck, Great Mazinger even had their pilot trained from birth for the job!

While the iconic Gundam often has unstable prototypes being deployed with almost no testing because the enemy army is invading right now and is do or die. SEED has the coordinators coding the machine's operative systems in the mid of battle! Although then Char pilots a good old Zaku II with just a red paint job. Because red ones go faster. That's something indeed researched and tested in a large scale, just ask Gundam 00 where eventually everybody is doing it, mooks included.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Rekmond on November 09, 2016, 07:15:43 AM
Fair, I think my logic holds better with more mass produced models. Gundams may be real robots (almost always), but they are usually as unique as their pilots. Most mass produced models never really get a chance to shine within gundam outside some notable times when given an amazing pilot.

Char in a Zaku causing people nightmares and the Gouf piloted by Norris Packard among my personal favorites.

And while a different series, I have played the Dynasty Warriors Gundam series, and seeing Char's Red Zaku being taken up against a set of Trans AM Gundams and win simply due to being able to hit and run on a scale outside anything else in the game.......is horrifying. Even the Reborns couldn't touch it. If the Gundams hit it, it may as well have been made of paper mache, tested that, but it could enter and clear an area in seconds.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 09, 2016, 07:36:44 AM
Yeah, really need to do a "Char" prc. Your mecha stops upgrading, but you learn to pilot it so well you can dodge/hit everything.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 09, 2016, 10:38:13 AM
We just tested out HEATS in my campaign as an opponent, and we had some thoughts on it.
It’s not something the GM should use in a synchronous game (i.e. not play by post) if they intend to make use of the transforming aspect. I found it incredibly tedious to switch back and forth between the different forms. Don’t get me wrong, I really enjoyed it, it’s just that it took up a lot of time (the combat lasted about twice as long as a normal combat despite having only one effective opponent).
Out of curiosity, did you stat up the different transformations beforehand? If you're doing it on the fly yeah it's gonna take time.


I did. The issue was more that I wasn't able to memorize all the different options, because level 7 characters in this system have a *lot* of options. Also, recording changes to spirit pools was awkward (which happened because the combined unit had Soul of the Machine)

Is the reason the Counter feat can't be used to trigger counters just balance? Because I've got players that want to be able to use multiple counters (maneuvers) in one round.
Also, Why is the soulgain listed in the real robots description but not the chart, and vice-versa for the arkgain. Are they intended to be the same unit?
Also, the R-1 is listed as the R1 in the real robot list. either both instances should be R-1 or both should be R1 (this is bugging one of my players).
Also, the Rapiecage doesn't have a maneuverability listed for its fly speed

Also, you commented on making a transforming mecha for all arsenal grades. some suggestions my players came up with: Altairlion (which would of course need a corresponding Vegalion), Wildraubtier Schnabel, and ART-1 (which would also serve to fix my minor gripe about "why can't the R-1 have T-Link Knuckle?)

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 09, 2016, 12:27:26 PM
The Alteisen Riese seems to be overpowered in comparison to other options. It has more HP than is possible on a super robot (the designated tanks) at 400 as compared to the max HP on a super robot being 315 (without Great Plating, which brings it up to 390). It has more natural armor than a super can have at 22 as compared to the 12 a super can have (without Great Plating, which brings it up to 18). It has more DR than a super can have at 40 as compared to 35 (without Great Plating, which does bring it up to 48, if it’s colossal). It has the same EN as a super without batteries, but supers tend to be more energy intensive than reals anyway. It has a +7 bonus to saves, while a super can only have at most +6. It has 125Mu movement speed, while a super's top speed is 85Mu (without Great Agility, which does bring it up to 140, if it's colossal). It has five hardpoints, more than any other unit in the conversion save the Ashsaber. Its weapons, likewise, are incredibly powerful. its Revolving Bunker would take 9 super robot upgrades to recreate (roughly), and that's not including its to hit bonus. While this is partially balanced out by its low ammo count, it's still incredibly strong. The Claymore Avalanche is also a very powerful weapon. It's stronger than anything a super robot can have save a fully Mighty'd twinned heavy weapon, and even that will consume much more resources than the Claymores.

As for its comparisons with reals, it has the same net AC bonus as its closest competitor in the role of melee real, the Banpreios, four times the move speed, 33% more HP, only 5 less EN (and only has one EN consuming weapon), +2 points of save bonus, +15 arsenal space, +3 hardpoints, and 5 extra DR. As for a weapon comparison, while Altered Full Burst does have a massive range increase over the Claymore Avalanche, it does less damage and can only be fired twice before needing recharging, as compared to the claymore's four shots. similarly, while the T-Link Tronium Edge is much stronger than the Revolving Bunker, it can only be fired once as opposed to six times. Ranged combat is the only area the Alteisen Riese truly suffers, where it is greatly outdone by the Astranagant

If this is not an intentional design aspect, I would recommend reducing its capabilities in either defenses or weapons, or improving its competitors. If this is an intentional design aspect, would you please explain why?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 12, 2016, 12:52:11 PM
We just tested out HEATS in my campaign as an opponent, and we had some thoughts on it.
It’s not something the GM should use in a synchronous game (i.e. not play by post) if they intend to make use of the transforming aspect. I found it incredibly tedious to switch back and forth between the different forms. Don’t get me wrong, I really enjoyed it, it’s just that it took up a lot of time (the combat lasted about twice as long as a normal combat despite having only one effective opponent).
Out of curiosity, did you stat up the different transformations beforehand? If you're doing it on the fly yeah it's gonna take time.


I did. The issue was more that I wasn't able to memorize all the different options, because level 7 characters in this system have a *lot* of options. Also, recording changes to spirit pools was awkward (which happened because the combined unit had Soul of the Machine)
Well the last bit it's not my fault since it's 4th party material. :P

Is the reason the Counter feat can't be used to trigger counters just balance? Because I've got players that want to be able to use multiple counters (maneuvers) in one round.
Balance yes. There's some pretty powerful counter maneuvers around.

Also, Why is the soulgain listed in the real robots description but not the chart, and vice-versa for the arkgain. Are they intended to be the same unit?
Also, the R-1 is listed as the R1 in the real robot list. either both instances should be R-1 or both should be R1 (this is bugging one of my players).
Also, the Rapiecage doesn't have a maneuverability listed for its fly speed
Typos fixed.

Also, you commented on making a transforming mecha for all arsenal grades. some suggestions my players came up with: Altairlion (which would of course need a corresponding Vegalion), Wildraubtier Schnabel, and ART-1 (which would also serve to fix my minor gripe about "why can't the R-1 have T-Link Knuckle?)
Well, because it's a grade I mecha, and also because it can be represented by maneuvers, in particular since it's supposed to be Ryusei's own technique. If I remember correctly "normal" pilots can't even use it if you switch machines around. But otherwise those are good suggestions on reals to tackle next.

The Alteisen Riese seems to be overpowered in comparison to other options. It has more HP than is possible on a super robot (the designated tanks) at 400 as compared to the max HP on a super robot being 315 (without Great Plating, which brings it up to 390). It has more natural armor than a super can have at 22 as compared to the 12 a super can have (without Great Plating, which brings it up to 18). It has more DR than a super can have at 40 as compared to 35 (without Great Plating, which does bring it up to 48, if it’s colossal). It has the same EN as a super without batteries, but supers tend to be more energy intensive than reals anyway. It has a +7 bonus to saves, while a super can only have at most +6. It has 125Mu movement speed, while a super's top speed is 85Mu (without Great Agility, which does bring it up to 140, if it's colossal). It has five hardpoints, more than any other unit in the conversion save the Ashsaber. Its weapons, likewise, are incredibly powerful. its Revolving Bunker would take 9 super robot upgrades to recreate (roughly), and that's not including its to hit bonus. While this is partially balanced out by its low ammo count, it's still incredibly strong. The Claymore Avalanche is also a very powerful weapon. It's stronger than anything a super robot can have save a fully Mighty'd twinned heavy weapon, and even that will consume much more resources than the Claymores.

As for its comparisons with reals, it has the same net AC bonus as its closest competitor in the role of melee real, the Banpreios, four times the move speed, 33% more HP, only 5 less EN (and only has one EN consuming weapon), +2 points of save bonus, +15 arsenal space, +3 hardpoints, and 5 extra DR. As for a weapon comparison, while Altered Full Burst does have a massive range increase over the Claymore Avalanche, it does less damage and can only be fired twice before needing recharging, as compared to the claymore's four shots. similarly, while the T-Link Tronium Edge is much stronger than the Revolving Bunker, it can only be fired once as opposed to six times. Ranged combat is the only area the Alteisen Riese truly suffers, where it is greatly outdone by the Astranagant

If this is not an intentional design aspect, I would recommend reducing its capabilities in either defenses or weapons, or improving its competitors. If this is an intentional design aspect, would you please explain why?

Look at my avatar.

Ahem, the Alteisen Riese has the most HP/DR/ammo along because its design proccess basically was "add ALL the armor plating/bullets!". For Juddecca's sake, the Alteisen Riese has two tesla engines in-built just to be able to walk with all the weight it's carrying around! Do notice it has the worst Dodge around besides the Alteisen itself.

Anyway the other level VII reals may be lagging behind a bit, so I'll review them a bit and check ways to buff them as needed when I'm not half-asleep anymore.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 12, 2016, 02:10:22 PM
The Pinning property reduces the speed by half for normal weapons and by 1/4 for heavy weapons. Usually the heavy weapons have a stronger effect so perhaps you meant it to be reduced by 3/4 or reduced to 1/4 (same thing).

For Peace Princess, the ability description for Rags to Royalty V and VI are listed as IV and VV.
Does Peace Princess multiclass with other stuff as a Super Pilot? Same for the Arcane Pilot. (AP multclasses with Super Pilot clearly though to as clearly with other stuff).
Same with the Divine Pilot multiclassing as a Real Pilot would.

A typo: "Divine Pilot levels stack with Real Pilot levels for determining your SuperReal Robot level."

Also, I notice that PP and the Arcane Pilot mention taking their super robot from the Super Robot List. While there is indeed a "Super Robots List", it isn't really much of a list such as there is for the Real Robots. The Super Robots get a progression and upgrade points based on their super pilot class level so it would probably be clearer and simpler to simply have their levels treated as super pilot levels for the purpose of determining upgrade points and SRobot progression, then applying the weaker modifiers to its stats. It doesn't apply as well as it does for the Divine Pilot, from which this entry was probably copied.

The arcane pilot mentions getting half Arsenal space and Hardpoints(rounded up). The super robot doesn't get any hardpoint by default so it is now redundant. Considering they only get 4 arsenal space, the option to swap for full arsenal space is a bit strange.

Quote
...thus having no Arsenal space leftover, and actually have to sacrifice armor, ending up with 3/5 HP, Energy, Nat armor and DR of “regular” versions (minimum -1 at each of those stats)
Is that meant to include the increases from upgrades or only the base stats? Such as hyperdimensional storage granting no arsenal space (but can still add a hardpoint) and and Plating granting 6 hp instead of 10. And less nat armor/DR.

Her Mercy ability's second effect upon being reduced to 1 hp doesn't do much against targets that aren't mecha. It can however reduce someone to 5 mu (30-ft). Is there supposed to be a difference between the 2nd and 9th effect?

Also, some Peace Princess abilities may need prerequisites. Such as not being able to get higher spell levels before getting the earlier ones, or granting arsenal access of IV before granting the lower ones. The ability to grant so many other mechas access to the higher level arsenal options is probably too strong though. Instead of full access, it should maybe be a specific amount of arsenal option picks, split between any amount of different mecha. The number of picks limited by the number of times the ability is selected, including those for the lower arsenal levels.

Might also want to clarify what the PP counts as for spirits. Maybe ship captain considering the rest of her kit.
Speaking of which, the ship captain doesn't have any spirit that has a spirit cost that is low enough to be used as a first spirit. They are practically forced to take another class' spirit, which is weird.

Heats: 
Quote
...gains all of the Super Robot upgrades of its members, plus 1 "temporary" Upgrade Point per Team member  that only apply while combined. It counts as having the average Pilot Level of its members for determining what those "temporary" upgrades can be.
Not sure how this is supposed to work. As is it seems to stack all the super upgrades and then add a few extra ones that depends only on who the lead pilot is. But is this combination bypassing the usual maximum of upgrade points per option?
To be sure I got this right, for example; Level 2 SR with plating 2 combining with another Level 2 SR with plating 2 gets Plating 4 with 2 temporary upgrade points that can again be put into plating 2 (with plating 3 for the temporary points being impossible even if there was a third SR in the combination since their average pilot level of 2 has a max of 2)?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 12, 2016, 02:24:02 PM
We just tested out HEATS in my campaign as an opponent, and we had some thoughts on it.
It’s not something the GM should use in a synchronous game (i.e. not play by post) if they intend to make use of the transforming aspect. I found it incredibly tedious to switch back and forth between the different forms. Don’t get me wrong, I really enjoyed it, it’s just that it took up a lot of time (the combat lasted about twice as long as a normal combat despite having only one effective opponent).
Out of curiosity, did you stat up the different transformations beforehand? If you're doing it on the fly yeah it's gonna take time.


I did. The issue was more that I wasn't able to memorize all the different options, because level 7 characters in this system have a *lot* of options. Also, recording changes to spirit pools was awkward (which happened because the combined unit had Soul of the Machine)
Well the last bit it's not my fault since it's 4th party material. :P

Is the reason the Counter feat can't be used to trigger counters just balance? Because I've got players that want to be able to use multiple counters (maneuvers) in one round.
Balance yes. There's some pretty powerful counter maneuvers around.

Also, Why is the soulgain listed in the real robots description but not the chart, and vice-versa for the arkgain. Are they intended to be the same unit?
Also, the R-1 is listed as the R1 in the real robot list. either both instances should be R-1 or both should be R1 (this is bugging one of my players).
Also, the Rapiecage doesn't have a maneuverability listed for its fly speed
Typos fixed.

Also, you commented on making a transforming mecha for all arsenal grades. some suggestions my players came up with: Altairlion (which would of course need a corresponding Vegalion), Wildraubtier Schnabel, and ART-1 (which would also serve to fix my minor gripe about "why can't the R-1 have T-Link Knuckle?)
Well, because it's a grade I mecha, and also because it can be represented by maneuvers, in particular since it's supposed to be Ryusei's own technique. If I remember correctly "normal" pilots can't even use it if you switch machines around. But otherwise those are good suggestions on reals to tackle next.

The Alteisen Riese seems to be overpowered in comparison to other options. It has more HP than is possible on a super robot (the designated tanks) at 400 as compared to the max HP on a super robot being 315 (without Great Plating, which brings it up to 390). It has more natural armor than a super can have at 22 as compared to the 12 a super can have (without Great Plating, which brings it up to 18). It has more DR than a super can have at 40 as compared to 35 (without Great Plating, which does bring it up to 48, if it’s colossal). It has the same EN as a super without batteries, but supers tend to be more energy intensive than reals anyway. It has a +7 bonus to saves, while a super can only have at most +6. It has 125Mu movement speed, while a super's top speed is 85Mu (without Great Agility, which does bring it up to 140, if it's colossal). It has five hardpoints, more than any other unit in the conversion save the Ashsaber. Its weapons, likewise, are incredibly powerful. its Revolving Bunker would take 9 super robot upgrades to recreate (roughly), and that's not including its to hit bonus. While this is partially balanced out by its low ammo count, it's still incredibly strong. The Claymore Avalanche is also a very powerful weapon. It's stronger than anything a super robot can have save a fully Mighty'd twinned heavy weapon, and even that will consume much more resources than the Claymores.

As for its comparisons with reals, it has the same net AC bonus as its closest competitor in the role of melee real, the Banpreios, four times the move speed, 33% more HP, only 5 less EN (and only has one EN consuming weapon), +2 points of save bonus, +15 arsenal space, +3 hardpoints, and 5 extra DR. As for a weapon comparison, while Altered Full Burst does have a massive range increase over the Claymore Avalanche, it does less damage and can only be fired twice before needing recharging, as compared to the claymore's four shots. similarly, while the T-Link Tronium Edge is much stronger than the Revolving Bunker, it can only be fired once as opposed to six times. Ranged combat is the only area the Alteisen Riese truly suffers, where it is greatly outdone by the Astranagant

If this is not an intentional design aspect, I would recommend reducing its capabilities in either defenses or weapons, or improving its competitors. If this is an intentional design aspect, would you please explain why?

Look at my avatar.

Ahem, the Alteisen Riese has the most HP/DR/ammo along because its design proccess basically was "add ALL the armor plating/bullets!". For Juddecca's sake, the Alteisen Riese has two tesla engines in-built just to be able to walk with all the weight it's carrying around! Do notice it has the worst Dodge around besides the Alteisen itself.

Anyway the other level VII reals may be lagging behind a bit, so I'll review them a bit and check ways to buff them as needed when I'm not half-asleep anymore.

Responses respectively:
No, it's your material. It's near the bottom of the super robot upgrade list.

That's reasonable.

Thank you.

Not sure which maneuver, but that makes sense.

Just because Alt has the most armor/plating/bullets etc... does not mean it should be better at what super robots do than super robots. Don't get me wrong, I love Alt, but it renders the Super Pilot class basically moot at that level, aside from Burning Justice maneuvers.

Other than that:
Is it intentional that Real Pilots get 7 spirits when everyone else gets 6?
Peace Princess doesn't have Spirited at level 1 on the chart. Is this intentional?
Is it intentional that Einst Queen and Ship Captain do not get any SP from first level?
Also, Peace Princess's "Sweet Princess" option is kinda silly. I see the intent behind it, but it means if you can survive three attacks from an enemy, they're no longer an enemy, with no save allowed, and it's not mind-affecting so it works even on things like oozes (unless I'm missing something)
the Einst Queen's ability "Queen's Will" says it allows any biodrones controlled to use the Einst Queen's BAB "if better", but biodrones don't have a BAB. is this intentional, or a typo?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 13, 2016, 11:15:37 AM
The Pinning property reduces the speed by half for normal weapons and by 1/4 for heavy weapons. Usually the heavy weapons have a stronger effect so perhaps you meant it to be reduced by 3/4 or reduced to 1/4 (same thing).
Fixed

For Peace Princess, the ability description for Rags to Royalty V and VI are listed as IV and VV.
Does Peace Princess multiclass with other stuff as a Super Pilot? Same for the Arcane Pilot. (AP multclasses with Super Pilot clearly though to as clearly with other stuff).
Same with the Divine Pilot multiclassing as a Real Pilot would.

A typo: "Divine Pilot levels stack with Real Pilot levels for determining your SuperReal Robot level."
Fixed/cleaned it up.

Also, I notice that PP and the Arcane Pilot mention taking their super robot from the Super Robot List. While there is indeed a "Super Robots List", it isn't really much of a list such as there is for the Real Robots. The Super Robots get a progression and upgrade points based on their super pilot class level so it would probably be clearer and simpler to simply have their levels treated as super pilot levels for the purpose of determining upgrade points and SRobot progression, then applying the weaker modifiers to its stats. It doesn't apply as well as it does for the Divine Pilot, from which this entry was probably copied.
It applies well enough. Super Robot list is in too many places for me to have time to find and apply a customized new text to every each one of them.

The arcane pilot mentions getting half Arsenal space and Hardpoints(rounded up). The super robot doesn't get any hardpoint by default so it is now redundant. Considering they only get 4 arsenal space, the option to swap for full arsenal space is a bit strange.
A multiclass super/real can have a lot of hardpoints.

Quote
...thus having no Arsenal space leftover, and actually have to sacrifice armor, ending up with 3/5 HP, Energy, Nat armor and DR of “regular” versions (minimum -1 at each of those stats)
Is that meant to include the increases from upgrades or only the base stats? Such as hyperdimensional storage granting no arsenal space (but can still add a hardpoint) and and Plating granting 6 hp instead of 10. And less nat armor/DR.
Correct, applies to everything.

Her Mercy ability's second effect upon being reduced to 1 hp doesn't do much against targets that aren't mecha. It can however reduce someone to 5 mu (30-ft). Is there supposed to be a difference between the 2nd and 9th effect?
Overhauled Mercy.

Also, some Peace Princess abilities may need prerequisites. Such as not being able to get higher spell levels before getting the earlier ones, or granting arsenal access of IV before granting the lower ones. The ability to grant so many other mechas access to the higher level arsenal options is probably too strong though. Instead of full access, it should maybe be a specific amount of arsenal option picks, split between any amount of different mecha. The number of picks limited by the number of times the ability is selected, including those for the lower arsenal levels.
Good points about the connections line, applied them. However the spells having no pre-requisites is intended since there is an use in knowing lower level spells, but I also wanted to allow "suddenly big arcane power".

Might also want to clarify what the PP counts as for spirits. Maybe ship captain considering the rest of her kit.
Speaking of which, the ship captain doesn't have any spirit that has a spirit cost that is low enough to be used as a first spirit. They are practically forced to take another class' spirit, which is weird.
Ship Captain, also changed Scan to Ship Captain as well.

Heats: 
Quote
...gains all of the Super Robot upgrades of its members, plus 1 "temporary" Upgrade Point per Team member  that only apply while combined. It counts as having the average Pilot Level of its members for determining what those "temporary" upgrades can be.
Not sure how this is supposed to work. As is it seems to stack all the super upgrades and then add a few extra ones that depends only on who the lead pilot is. But is this combination bypassing the usual maximum of upgrade points per option?
To be sure I got this right, for example; Level 2 SR with plating 2 combining with another Level 2 SR with plating 2 gets Plating 4 with 2 temporary upgrade points that can again be put into plating 2 (with plating 3 for the temporary points being impossible even if there was a third SR in the combination since their average pilot level of 2 has a max of 2)?
Upgrades from the base unit count towards limit of temporary upgrades, clarified.

Responses respectively:
No, it's your material. It's near the bottom of the super robot upgrade list.

That's reasonable.

Thank you.

Not sure which maneuver, but that makes sense.
-Ups, my bad. :blush
-Added Wildbrautier upgrade with complicated name and ART-1

Just because Alt has the most armor/plating/bullets etc... does not mean it should be better at what super robots do than super robots. Don't get me wrong, I love Alt, but it renders the Super Pilot class basically moot at that level, aside from Burning Justice maneuvers.
Well, a Super Pilot at that level would have the advantage of higher energy to use maneuvers plus Soul of the Machine.

Other than that:
Is it intentional that Real Pilots get 7 spirits when everyone else gets 6?
Peace Princess doesn't have Spirited at level 1 on the chart. Is this intentional?
Is it intentional that Einst Queen and Ship Captain do not get any SP from first level?
Also, Peace Princess's "Sweet Princess" option is kinda silly. I see the intent behind it, but it means if you can survive three attacks from an enemy, they're no longer an enemy, with no save allowed, and it's not mind-affecting so it works even on things like oozes (unless I'm missing something)
the Einst Queen's ability "Queen's Will" says it allows any biodrones controlled to use the Einst Queen's BAB "if better", but biodrones don't have a BAB. is this intentional, or a typo?
-Ups, no. Traded the last spirit for another bonus feat.
-Yes.
-Eeerr, Ship Captain/Einst Queen's spirit points are based on their class level, why wouldn't the first level count?
-Clarified that you need four sets of three, not a single set of three. So 12 attacks.
-Any Bab is better than no Bab.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on November 13, 2016, 01:23:34 PM
Just because Alt has the most armor/plating/bullets etc... does not mean it should be better at what super robots do than super robots. Don't get me wrong, I love Alt, but it renders the Super Pilot class basically moot at that level, aside from Burning Justice maneuvers.
Well, a Super Pilot at that level would have the advantage of higher energy to use maneuvers plus Soul of the Machine.

Is it intentional that Einst Queen and Ship Captain do not get any SP from first level?
-Eeerr, Ship Captain/Einst Queen's spirit points are based on their class level, why wouldn't the first level count?
Respectively:
Clearly, I can't get my point across. Sorry for pressing the issue.

Just seemed kinda confusing 'cuz they only get Spirited/Queen's Spirit at level 2, and usually scaling class features scale starting at the level they're gained.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 13, 2016, 02:14:27 PM
Thanks for the reply.

Quote
Quote
The arcane pilot mentions getting half Arsenal space and Hardpoints(rounded up). The super robot doesn't get any hardpoint by default so it is now redundant. Considering they only get 4 arsenal space, the option to swap for full arsenal space is a bit strange.
A multiclass super/real can have a lot of hardpoints.
Ah, so a multiclass pilot is supposed to combined the modifier on the final mecha instead of its super component. The entries gave me the impression that a multiclass divine/arcane/peace-p applied their reduction only to the super robot stats, handled separately from the stats added to the mecha from Real Pilot, Ship captain and so on.
(Ship Captain 18/Peace Princess 2 would then have a strong n' tough ship that isn't as strong as a full Ship Captain 20 but would have access to a few weaker PP abilities instead of having the entire 18 level of battleship reduced for them) Same with casting; the penalties and gains being in proportion for each side.
But all right.

Apologies if the question was asked before, but can a casting Pilot/PP channel spells/PP abilities through a full-stats mecha using Amplifier upgrades? Probably one amplifier per spell/ability.
Also, it was probably intended but many PP abilities do not have to be channeled as they either affect her directly or do not have to be used, such as bonuses to saves or getting mooks or a champion. (Nice touch with the champion, by the way. Euphemia+Suzaku was also something I had in mind with the reverse cohort, which puts me mind again of making a knightmare).

Royal champion; The maximum level of the champion per RtR pick seems disproportionate and the level fluctuations in its level advantage feels awkward. Here's a chart of its level advantage assuming it is progressed as soon as possible.
(click to show/hide)
If stabilizes at level 9, for a cost of 3 RtR picks to keep pace at a level advantage for the champion of +2/+2/+1...  but is all over the place before that and the costs to maintain are not balanced (you must spend all your RtR II picks on it but only one RtR III).
It would normally require a maximum champion level of 8 for the second RtR to stabilize the lot to a sequence of +2/+2/+1. For the early levels, to maintain an advancement cost of 3 picks per RtR level, you could limit the number of picks of Royal Champion picks to your maximum PP class level. That would make it +2/+2/+2/+1 for the first four levels, which is all good.
If you'd prefer to stabilize a +2 advantage for as long as possible, you can have each RtR level option grant a +1 advantage, then a +2 advantage with a second pick until X level, at which point it would need the picks of the next RtR level to advance further. It would reduce the advancement costs to 2 picks per RtR level, however, unless the +1 advantage costs 1 pick and +2 advantage costs an extra 2 picks.

I've just read the new Mercy; there is a way for mechas to recover from them but nothing for non-mechas. All movements permanently dropping to 5 feet is pretty nasty, among other things. (though in that case it may be the result of being maimed and would require a regeneration effect to restore the crippled legs)

New connections; to be sure, is it the intent that only picks of High Connections increase the amount of weapon/s.weapon/accessory that can be distributed, and the other connection abilities merely increase the arsenal level accessible, or are they also supposed to increase the amount of picks? As is the higher connection abilities do not affect the amount of arsenal stuff available to be distributed.
Also:
Quote
...delivered and installed on mechas of your choice anywhere, divided as you see fit, including removing previous arsenal to make space.
Is that meant to say that those arsenal options are installed without taking arsenal space/hardpoint? The part about removing previous arsenal to make space could either indicate that they still take space/hardpoint as it could refer to removing a previous use of High Connections to install them again. If they are extras then limiting it to a number per picks of High Connection specifically makes sense, also considering he princess' own reduced arsenal. Seems to be a PP channeled ability because it requires being close to her though not sure if being within the radius is required when it is applied to her own Royal Mecha.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 22, 2016, 08:07:48 AM
Thanks for the reply.

Quote
Quote
The arcane pilot mentions getting half Arsenal space and Hardpoints(rounded up). The super robot doesn't get any hardpoint by default so it is now redundant. Considering they only get 4 arsenal space, the option to swap for full arsenal space is a bit strange.
A multiclass super/real can have a lot of hardpoints.
Ah, so a multiclass pilot is supposed to combined the modifier on the final mecha instead of its super component. The entries gave me the impression that a multiclass divine/arcane/peace-p applied their reduction only to the super robot stats, handled separately from the stats added to the mecha from Real Pilot, Ship captain and so on.
(Ship Captain 18/Peace Princess 2 would then have a strong n' tough ship that isn't as strong as a full Ship Captain 20 but would have access to a few weaker PP abilities instead of having the entire 18 level of battleship reduced for them) Same with casting; the penalties and gains being in proportion for each side.
But all right.

Apologies if the question was asked before, but can a casting Pilot/PP channel spells/PP abilities through a full-stats mecha using Amplifier upgrades? Probably one amplifier per spell/ability.
Also, it was probably intended but many PP abilities do not have to be channeled as they either affect her directly or do not have to be used, such as bonuses to saves or getting mooks or a champion.
Channeler won't apply to that kind of stuff, but yes several Peace Princess abilities don't need to actually be channeled so you could have an easier time multiclassing (or you could be an Arcane/Divine Pilot focused on self-buffs).

(Nice touch with the champion, by the way. Euphemia+Suzaku was also something I had in mind with the reverse cohort, which puts me mind again of making a knightmare).

Royal champion; The maximum level of the champion per RtR pick seems disproportionate and the level fluctuations in its level advantage feels awkward. Here's a chart of its level advantage assuming it is progressed as soon as possible.
(click to show/hide)
If stabilizes at level 9, for a cost of 3 RtR picks to keep pace at a level advantage for the champion of +2/+2/+1...  but is all over the place before that and the costs to maintain are not balanced (you must spend all your RtR II picks on it but only one RtR III).
It would normally require a maximum champion level of 8 for the second RtR to stabilize the lot to a sequence of +2/+2/+1. For the early levels, to maintain an advancement cost of 3 picks per RtR level, you could limit the number of picks of Royal Champion picks to your maximum PP class level. That would make it +2/+2/+2/+1 for the first four levels, which is all good.
If you'd prefer to stabilize a +2 advantage for as long as possible, you can have each RtR level option grant a +1 advantage, then a +2 advantage with a second pick until X level, at which point it would need the picks of the next RtR level to advance further. It would reduce the advancement costs to 2 picks per RtR level, however, unless the +1 advantage costs 1 pick and +2 advantage costs an extra 2 picks.
Actually I messed up the caps.

Also every level now grants Rags to Royalty, spread up the spirits and bonus feats.

Now I just need to add more abilities to pick.

I've just read the new Mercy; there is a way for mechas to recover from them but nothing for non-mechas. All movements permanently dropping to 5 feet is pretty nasty, among other things. (though in that case it may be the result of being maimed and would require a regeneration effect to restore the crippled legs)
Added auto-heal to non-mechas. Not that mercyful to leave them crippled until expensive treatment is applied.

New connections; to be sure, is it the intent that only picks of High Connections increase the amount of weapon/s.weapon/accessory that can be distributed, and the other connection abilities merely increase the arsenal level accessible, or are they also supposed to increase the amount of picks? As is the higher connection abilities do not affect the amount of arsenal stuff available to be distributed.
Higher connections only allow you to requisition fancier stuff.

Also:
Quote
...delivered and installed on mechas of your choice anywhere, divided as you see fit, including removing previous arsenal to make space.
Is that meant to say that those arsenal options are installed without taking arsenal space/hardpoint? The part about removing previous arsenal to make space could either indicate that they still take space/hardpoint as it could refer to removing a previous use of High Connections to install them again. If they are extras then limiting it to a number per picks of High Connection specifically makes sense, also considering he princess' own reduced arsenal. Seems to be a PP channeled ability because it requires being close to her though not sure if being within the radius is required when it is applied to her own Royal Mecha.
No, you can't go over limits, just that you can unequip peasant arsenal stuff to make space for the new royal arsenal. Can't fill a cup with expensive wine if it's already filled with cheap beer.

Self arsenal still demands a non-null radius value.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on November 23, 2016, 01:06:22 AM
Quote
Added auto-heal to non-mechas. Not that mercyful to leave them crippled until expensive treatment is applied.
Sounds good. Are those meant to be a status effect that can simply be removed by any of the numerous options that cancel a negative effect? Considering the amount of options to clear ill effects away and that mercy's negative effects do not stack until the target heals, limiting it to 1 effect per round maximum.
Not sure if the same applies to the Saint's version of Mercy since many of those ill-effect cancelers can be used even if you cannot take any action.

Quote
No, you can't go over limits, just that you can unequip peasant arsenal stuff to make space for the new royal arsenal. Can't fill a cup with expensive wine if it's already filled with cheap beer.
Self arsenal still demands a non-null radius value.
Might want to clarify that the ability only adds the arsenal level options to the arsenal available for that mecha's selections since as is it simply adds to them by having them installed. As I said, the part about replacing arsenal in the process could seem to refer to the previous use of the same ability.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 30, 2016, 11:10:14 PM
Mercy's effects have limite duration so yes you can patch them up. However ejecting/mecha destroyed would render it a moot point.

Clarified connections.

Also Added Peace princess's capstone and added/changed some of the abilities.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on December 01, 2016, 04:27:37 AM
All right.
I wanted to note that right now it has become even easier to get support from mecha passengers.
You could get plenty of level 1 minions as passengers that grant extreme benefits to the pilot/mecha.
For example, there are now arsenal options that recover stuff for other mechas; a level 1 android with the arsenal accessory feat could have one equipped and use it from within a mecha to restore it.

A level 1 support staff minion or two could similarly spam recovery options such as Recharge to keep a mecha at max energy forever.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 01, 2016, 04:38:50 AM
Well, you would need a renewable source of androids since technically they can only change the feat arsenal at level up, so limited number of cartridge/repair kit uses. But pretty abuseable yes.

Limited the Android racial feat to non-consumables and also clarified that the Support Staff can only use their specialization abilities while piloting their Mobile Worker, thanks.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on December 01, 2016, 11:10:01 AM
Hi5!
That reminds me now that, while I do not know all the things you've crossed the SRW setting homebrews with, there's the Animated Object that gets a similar arsenal access. Maybe not up date with the Energy Arsenal stuff though.
There's also the moon vanguard minions that can pull the arsenal support trick since they can use it with their nanoarmor within the mecha. If they do not work while within a mecha, you can destroy their nanoarmor since they still keep their arsenal stuff.

An arsenal option I'm considering: Arsenal weapons of an arsenal level lower than your maximum can be taken and made twin-linked. But if that weapon has the defensive special weapon quality, such as the G-Revolver (II), is it intended to do the twin attacks as an immediate action or is it only doing one? Because as per the description of Twin-Linked, the twin attack applies in specific cases (attack with a standard action or attacks with a fullattack) and a Defensive attack isn't one of them.

Oh, would the Tactical feat of the Martial Machine be essentially the same as the one for Gun Maniac?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on December 13, 2016, 02:45:18 PM
Oslecamo, the thread says you've updated battleships today, but I can't see what's changed. Would it be too much trouble to ask for a patch log whenever you change things? That'd be awesome if you'd be willing to do it!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 13, 2016, 09:19:08 PM
Hi5!
That reminds me now that, while I do not know all the things you've crossed the SRW setting homebrews with, there's the Animated Object that gets a similar arsenal access. Maybe not up date with the Energy Arsenal stuff though.
There's also the moon vanguard minions that can pull the arsenal support trick since they can use it with their nanoarmor within the mecha. If they do not work while within a mecha, you can destroy their nanoarmor since they still keep their arsenal stuff.
Added rule for that in Arsenal, such options can not be used in a mecha you're inside of.

An arsenal option I'm considering: Arsenal weapons of an arsenal level lower than your maximum can be taken and made twin-linked. But if that weapon has the defensive special weapon quality, such as the G-Revolver (II), is it intended to do the twin attacks as an immediate action or is it only doing one? Because as per the description of Twin-Linked, the twin attack applies in specific cases (attack with a standard action or attacks with a fullattack) and a Defensive attack isn't one of them.
Added clause for that as well.

Oh, would the Tactical feat of the Martial Machine be essentially the same as the one for Gun Maniac?
Well, it would have the usual "pick from 3/4 feats, plus "something synergy with 3 weapon tags", but still thinking about others. Something able to twin-link a pair of melee weapons while on foot plus make a weapon count as Heavy for boosted damage and make your unarmed strikes count as mecha-scale.

But first I want to flesh out more the Support Staff. Also need more Arsenal Missiles. Been toying with an idea for a whole school on that actually, "Macross Missile Massacre".

Oslecamo, the thread says you've updated battleships today, but I can't see what's changed. Would it be too much trouble to ask for a patch log whenever you change things? That'd be awesome if you'd be willing to do it!
Hmmm, I guess I can give a changelog a try around here. Although the ship change was just some typo correction. :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on December 31, 2016, 02:59:50 PM
The Born to Fight feat has the passive effect of allowing a pilot to affect mechas with nondamage effects (both ill or benefical) even if you're on foot and smaller than them.
Would it not make sense for non-pilots to have access to a feat that grants that ability as well? Settings introducing new elements often also give options to fight those new elements without being a part of it. So a warrior could be an expert at taking down those metal colossi without being a pilot, even if they technically count as having a CR of +2 against him.

Otherwise, maybe a feat could allow non-pilots to qualify has having a pilot class for the purpose of qualifying for feats that do not require a mecha.
Such as the Cyber Newtype/Innovade/Coordinator feats, maybe, since they do not require being a pilot, and could then get Born to Fight if only for that passive effect.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on December 31, 2016, 08:33:30 PM
Hmmm, I guess I can give a changelog a try around here. Although the ship change was just some typo correction. :P
A change log would be nice, but cross-indexing or completing information would be better.

Like you can put the actual weapon properties in the Arsenal Thread instead of burying in one spoiler of several in another thread. You could actually put text into Arcane/Divine Pilot saying they gain Arsenal like a Super Pilot as you've had to answer in here, and then using parenthesis provide a short note of access at level 4 and upgrades once per three levels after that. One sentence can prevent a tab full of explosions and digging into this thread (and phantasy star's) for answers.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 31, 2016, 09:00:34 PM
I think it could have been better phrased but yeah: the cross-referencing is overkill here. Super robots and real robots are now in the same thread as their parent class but common terms and features are regularly in threads without other indications (you have a 50/50 chance of working out where weapon properties are for one)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 02, 2017, 10:51:57 AM
The Born to Fight feat has the passive effect of allowing a pilot to affect mechas with nondamage effects (both ill or benefical) even if you're on foot and smaller than them.
Would it not make sense for non-pilots to have access to a feat that grants that ability as well? Settings introducing new elements often also give options to fight those new elements without being a part of it.
 So a warrior could be an expert at taking down those metal colossi without being a pilot, even if they technically count as having a CR of +2 against him.
Clearly I missed the anti-psionic feat on the psionics splatbooks and the anti-maneuver feat in Tome of Battle. I think Libris Mortis did have anti-undead feats you could take as a warm meatbag, but they kinda sucked and you were much better off becoming an undead yourself.

Otherwise, maybe a feat could allow non-pilots to qualify has having a pilot class for the purpose of qualifying for feats that do not require a mecha.
Such as the Cyber Newtype/Innovade/Coordinator feats, maybe, since they do not require being a pilot, and could then get Born to Fight if only for that passive effect.

One of the main points of this project is a setting where everybody is a pilot of some sort and you defeat mechas by having your own mechas, and fighting on foot is a last ditch effort or risky gambit, not your standard strategy. Even if a group wanted to take an already party of non-pilots and drop them on this setting, my recommendation would be for the party to run into some empty mechas they could commandeer.



Hmmm, I guess I can give a changelog a try around here. Although the ship change was just some typo correction. :P
A change log would be nice, but cross-indexing or completing information would be better.

Like you can put the actual weapon properties in the Arsenal Thread instead of burying in one spoiler of several in another thread. You could actually put text into Arcane/Divine Pilot saying they gain Arsenal like a Super Pilot as you've had to answer in here, and then using parenthesis provide a short note of access at level 4 and upgrades once per three levels after that. One sentence can prevent a tab full of explosions and digging into this thread (and phantasy star's) for answers.

Clarified the Arcane and Divine pilot's arsenal access, copied keywords to Arsenal, now I'll have to update it twice whenever I want to change something, yay!

Well anyway with the new year more positive energy and let's see if I can work on my backlog. With Soro having PMd me his promised fluff I've got to do my side as well and finally compile my stuff as well.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on January 03, 2017, 10:03:34 PM
Well anyway with the new year more positive energy and let's see if I can work on my backlog. With Soro having PMd me his promised fluff I've got to do my side as well and finally compile my stuff as well.
To be fair it took me three months giving you plenty of time to catch up :p

I also have spare notes floating around to partially extend on the rest of the family that could be compiled if you'll really use the stuff. I crank out flavor as a form of procrastination. Plus I was so up for adding the 5th dimension into things be generally you have to sit around explaining what the first four are in D&D thanks to everything thinking time travel and misunderstood tesseracts.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on January 14, 2017, 05:11:27 AM
For Super Robots that don't have Hardpoints, can anything actually be put into their default Arsenal space of 4? Or are Hardpoints exclusively for Accessories and general Arsenal space can be filled with combat weapons and such without spending Hardpoints?

Are you not allowed to have multiple Great One upgrades on a Super Robot?

I know we talked about it in the PS game but the Fighter transformation affects fly speed how? Am I increasing my base by 150% it's normal value or is my base becoming 150% of itself? I'm still lost here.

100 mu fly becomes 250 mu?
or
100 mu fly becomes 150 mu?

If you have multiple built-in weapons can you attack with all of them in the same round?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 14, 2017, 05:35:03 AM
Yes, general Arsenal space can be filled with (and only with) combat and special weapons.

No, only one Great One upgrade per super robot.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on January 14, 2017, 07:32:06 AM
Okay, thank you.

I kept editing in stuff to my last post without noticing you'd responded yet so

Quote
I know we talked about it in the PS game but the Fighter transformation affects fly speed how? Am I increasing my base by 150% it's normal value or is my base becoming 150% of itself? I'm still lost here.

100 mu fly becomes 250 mu?
or
100 mu fly becomes 150 mu?

If you have multiple built-in weapons can you attack with all of them in the same round?

Edit: If you have Twin-linked weapons with the Volatile property on both, do they both explode or would just one of the two linked weapons explode upon taking damage/nat 20ing?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 14, 2017, 09:47:39 AM
100 mu fly would become 150 mu.

Yes, you can attack with all in-built and arsenal weapons in a full attack. Could've sworn I had added a clause for that in the intro but found nothing so added now.

Twin-linked volatile weapons would explode one at a time.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on January 14, 2017, 05:38:37 PM
K, my turn to be confused. When you say "all" do you mean abusively all or you can split up your attacks between any of the weapons however you like?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 14, 2017, 08:01:32 PM
Relevant text:

Quote
When full attacking, a mecha may choose to either perform iteratives with a single weapon or attack once with any or all of its in-built and arsenal weapons. In the latter case, all weapons after the first take a -5 penalty on the attack roll and only add half the relevant stat to damage.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on January 14, 2017, 08:23:38 PM
So at level one a Super Pilot can select Extra and attack three times per round.
By level four it can attack six times per round (2 built in, 2 extra, 2 arsenal).
By level eight it can attack nineteen times (2 built in, 3 extra, 4 linked arsenal, 10 grenades).
Man all it needs is some Rending, or Sneak Attack w/e.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on January 14, 2017, 08:51:07 PM
Is Spirit Regen not obtainable multiple times for stacking effect? I apparently was doing just that and I could have sworn it either use to do so before or I asked and got an okay but I can't remember for sure....

Could it be a stacking feat? -_-'
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on January 15, 2017, 12:30:43 AM
Quote
By level eight it can attack nineteen times (2 built in, 3 extra, 4 linked arsenal, 10 grenades).
I'm pretty sure arsenal weapons are not built-in weapons, though. Otherwise it opens the door to a lot of new tricks.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 15, 2017, 02:06:31 AM
Is Spirit Regen not obtainable multiple times for stacking effect? I apparently was doing just that and I could have sworn it either use to do so before or I asked and got an okay but I can't remember for sure....

Could it be a stacking feat? -_-'

First version of Spirit Regen was stackable indeed but I changed that a bunch of updates ago.

So at level one a Super Pilot can select Extra and attack three times per round.
By level four it can attack six times per round (2 built in, 2 extra, 2 arsenal).
By level eight it can attack nineteen times (2 built in, 3 extra, 4 linked arsenal, 10 grenades).
Man all it needs is some Rending, or Sneak Attack w/e.

Also, you know, being able to make more than two full attacks before running out of ammo for over half your weapons.  Very Gundam Heavyarms. :P

Also the extra weapons are melee by default unless you use tank transformation, and tank disables your arsenal weapons so that's a no go. The only way you can pull the last bit is being close and personal provoking 10+ Aoos from the ranged grenade attacks.

Quote
By level eight it can attack nineteen times (2 built in, 3 extra, 4 linked arsenal, 10 grenades).
I'm pretty sure arsenal weapons are not built-in weapons, though. Otherwise it opens the door to a lot of new tricks.

Eeerrr, the text I posted above explicitly states that arsenal weapons can be used along in-built weapons for the full attack.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on January 15, 2017, 03:19:57 AM
Also, you know, being able to make more than two full attacks before running out of ammo for over half your weapons.  Very Gundam Heavyarms. :P
Yeah but once I killed the mechs next to me I don't really suffer for those AoOs and once I kill all the mechs I don't suffer from running out of ammunition either.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on January 15, 2017, 09:44:58 AM
Also, you know, being able to make more than two full attacks before running out of ammo for over half your weapons.  Very Gundam Heavyarms. :P
Yeah but once I killed the mechs next to me I don't really suffer for those AoOs and once I kill all the mechs I don't suffer from running out of ammunition either.
Very much this!
A real pilot on most robots could equip 25 twin-linked steel knives, for example. The penalty to attacks get too high before long but the potential may play out with the right abilities. The first 10 could come into play and the rest would hope for a natural 20.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 15, 2017, 06:28:07 PM
Added hard cap of 1 weapon per pilot level.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on January 15, 2017, 08:42:57 PM
So we're capped at fourteen attacks in PH, let's see...

* lv14 Super Robot maximum upgrade defense is Growthx3, Great Plating, & Plating x8. That's 285 hp & 33 DR.
* You can also have 79 Arsenal points with lv4 gear but are capped at 14 attacks (apparently).
* So let's do 30 for the Ability Score (several have more in PH), Mightyx8, and the -50% bonus penalty is ignored by the +50% bonus for using one weapon type.
* We will use the Incision Knife (42pts spent) since it has Rending, it deals 2d8+31 against DR 16/- or 24 per hit.
*drum roll*
That's 336 damage per round, you can actually miss twice and still kill your opponent. Without using ammo!

And I have no idea how this is supposed to work with [Heavy] Weapons otherwise we could have used the FXA-03M2 which deals a rending 10d12+46*7 or up to 1,050 damage even with the DR from the super-defense-bot factored in. But that one is limited cus you can only use it four times per Encounter which just isn't enough to kill that fifteenth elite guard.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 15, 2017, 09:28:24 PM
The +50% damage is not for using one weapon type only, is for using one weapon only, point.

Also a super with those upgrades would be 4 DR(base)+14 (level)+8(plating)+(9 gargantuan Great One)=35 DR.

Mighty is 8x2=+16, 30 ability score gives a bonus of +10 that's halved for +5, each Incision Knive deals 2d8+21, not very sure where you got the previous value from.

Average damage is 30 against valid DR 17, so 13 hit per damage, for an actual total of 182 damage. Assuming you hit everything.

Heavy weapons still limited by the needing a fullround action to use.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on January 15, 2017, 10:21:20 PM
Quote
Average damage is 30 against valid DR 17, so 13 hit per damage, for an actual total of 182 damage. Assuming you hit everything.
And 40 energy for the use of Mighty. Mighty itself it doesn't accomplish much but there are so many other modifiers to damage that very high damage can indeed be reached rather easily... if everything hits. Still very strong. It is like a monster using natural weapons to fight except that natural weapons cannot be part of the combo. Not sure if that affects the use of that option for the Einst with their bioweapons/natural weapons.

Here's a group of questions:

Quote
Added hard cap of 1 weapon per pilot level.
Twin-linked weapons still count as 2 separate weapons for that purpose one a single one? 1 per pilot level is pretty amazing.

If a support staff chooses a real robot base, say, the Astelion (3 built-in weapons). He has to get rid of half its built-in weapons; is the removal rounded down or rounded up?

Are the perceptions that aren't already specifying that they depend on line of effect (such as blindsense and darkvision) bypassing line of effect? Or perhaps they work as emanation auras, going around obstacles? It is an important detail since otherwise some of them, like sensing things that aren't touching the ground then essentially just become a limited blindsense that isn't called blindsense.

Say you use a single weapon during your turn and thus get effective 2-handed damage. And then during the enemy turn you use an AoO with a different weapon while the current round still isn't over ; does it retroactively change the damage inflicted during your own turn since it no longer is the only weapon used that round? As that is how it seems to work. Unless instead of using only a single weapon per round is meant to be a single weapon per turn.

Some pilot feat abilities vs LoE: The Innovade's machine controlling aura, the Cyber Newtype's telepathy aura, both and the Coordinator's ability to detect within their aura's range and the Leader feat's aura; do they ignore line of effect or are perhaps spread/continuous burst effects? As all they require is for the potential targets to be with in their aura's range.

It may be obvious that Counter is a very powerful feat. Should there be a limit to the number of times it can be picked? Whether X per Y HD or by applying a limit in its usage, such as not being possible to use it more than once for the same thing (which promotes having more feats Counter can be used with, which also decreases the number of feats that can be dumped into Counter). So it could counter only once for Defend, once on Offensive Support and once on a defensive weapon.

Maybe a limit to the amount of Leader feat picks as well. A regular cohort or a second officer cohort could have nothing else to do than get pumped with Leader feats. The second officer may be prevented from having allies within the ship benefit from it because of that clause about him not being able to contribute to the fight except through spirit usage (unless the he gets command while a multiclass captain leaving on his real robot) but regular cohorts do not have that restriction.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on January 15, 2017, 10:24:31 PM
So in my discussions with Anomander I have found that Moon Vanguard very much would benefit from a section in the Mecha Basics thread defining how it and it's Nanoarmor can and cannot interact with a multiclassing/gestalt Super Pilot, Real Pilot, and Ship Captain's mechas/ships.

I've never thought about it before, but Super Nanoarmors that take advantage of the Growth upgrade would be tricky to wear whilst inside most Real Robots. For example, Katherine's Nanoarmor is Gargantuan. On Mecha scale she is a Small sized Mecha. Her Real Robot is Medium sized on Mecha scale. The mental picture here is an unmodified Real Robot having a cockpit big enough to accommodate a Mecha only 1 size smaller than the Real Robot.

Visually, I can't see this working despite this being exactly what I based my entire character around at the beginning  :lmao

Realistically, A Moon Vanguard/Real Pilot would have to have a very customized Real Robot to accommodate being piloted with an equipped Nanoarmor. Hell, at 16th level that Nanoarmor could be the same size as the Real Robot you're trying to pilot. What is the Real Robot now if we continue to try to make this work? An exoskeleton for the Nanoarmor with the Nanoarmor itself realigning and installing itself to become all of the functioning systems that make a Mecha work? So now in this hypothetical, A Moon Vanguard/Real Pilot's Real Robot has become a suit of armor for you suit of armor.

On the other hand, all of this weirdness is entirely avoidable if the Moon Vanguard gestalts/multis into Super Pilot and just has a Super Robot with Growth upgrades itself. But now we're all redundant with a Super Nanoarmor and a Super Robot.


On to more specific things related to my character though. Anomander had this quote from you in response to one of his questions long ago.
Quote
nanoarmor is a very small mecha, a piece of gear with its own stats that borrows abilities from you, not a self-buff. Otherwise this will end with you trying to cram mechas of diferent sizes inside each other to try to stack all their abilities.
I'll let overdrive work with the "bigger" mecha. But you still can't use the nanoarmor's HP/DR/saves/AC/weapons/arsenal.
I'll make a special exception for the bigger mecha geting the youkai-forged blades from your nanoarmor however.

So Overdrive can affect the Mecha you're piloting with a Nanoarmor, but no using the Nano's HP/DR/Saves/AC/Weapons/Arsenal. Cool cool. What about when the "bigger" mecha gets critted with you inside, inside your Nanoarmor?

Can you use your Nano's energy to fuel the "bigger" mecha?

You allowed Youkai-Forged Blades from the Nanoarmor to be able to be used through to the "bigger" mecha, but what about any Super Nano upgrades that are being applied specifically to the YFBs? Main Weapon, for example.

In regards to Katherine; being a Real Pilot and a Moon Vanguard (of which both classes are Pilot classes), how does Born to Fight interact with the Moon Vanguard's Maneuver system compared to how it works with a Real/Super/Ship Pilot class' maneuver system? Born to Fight calls out being able to use "Pilot Maneuvers" while outside of your mecha, not caring whether they are readied or not readied maneuvers because most Pilot classes to not have Readied/Unreadied maneuvers. Can Born to Fight be used to access any Pilot Maneuver from your Moon Vanguard's known list regardless of it being readied or not?
I gotta admit, I may have been already using it like that on a couple occasions >.> At least for me, it hasn't seemed overpowered yet, especially with the 5min cooldown attached to each maneuver used as such. Admittedly I saw it as a more versatile version of Tome of Battle's Adaptive style.

I'm not sure I got everything as I've had a lot of questions come and go over the last 2-3 days...maybe Anomander will come by and fill in some of my gaps.....

Oh, this last one's entirely offtopic from my above stuff but any plans on a tactical Pilot Feat for Martial Machine like you've got for all the other Pilot Schools so far?

EDIT: Considering my Yokai-Forged Blades are a built-in weapon of my Nanoarmor, does that mean my hands are technically free/empty to hold things?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 16, 2017, 12:02:14 AM
Quote
Average damage is 30 against valid DR 17, so 13 hit per damage, for an actual total of 182 damage. Assuming you hit everything.
And 40 energy for the use of Mighty. Mighty itself it doesn't accomplish much but there are so many other modifiers to damage that very high damage can indeed be reached rather easily... if everything hits. Still very strong.
Well it's one of the reasons I made the Prevail feat. Trying to wear down your opponent by a big amount of small attacks isn't so hot if they get tougher as their HP drops.

It is like a monster using natural weapons to fight except that natural weapons cannot be part of the combo. Not sure if that affects the use of that option for the Einst with their bioweapons/natural weapons.
Good point, added a clause for that in the Einst Queen bioweapons section.

Here's a group of questions:

Quote
Added hard cap of 1 weapon per pilot level.
Twin-linked weapons still count as 2 separate weapons for that purpose one a single one? 1 per pilot level is pretty amazing.
No, the benefits for Twin-Linked weapons are explicitly stated on the ability itself (fire both as standard or full attack iteratives with both replacing everything else).

If a support staff chooses a real robot base, say, the Astelion (3 built-in weapons). He has to get rid of half its built-in weapons; is the removal rounded down or rounded up?
Another good point, clarified it's rounded up.

Are the perceptions that aren't already specifying that they depend on line of effect (such as blindsense and darkvision) bypassing line of effect? Or perhaps they work as emanation auras, going around obstacles? It is an important detail since otherwise some of them, like sensing things that aren't touching the ground then essentially just become a limited blindsense that isn't called blindsense.
Clarified that spacesense and the metal detection don't demand line of sight. The "see through certain things" is already pretty explicit I believe.


Say you use a single weapon during your turn and thus get effective 2-handed damage. And then during the enemy turn you use an AoO with a different weapon while the current round still isn't over ; does it retroactively change the damage inflicted during your own turn since it no longer is the only weapon used that round? As that is how it seems to work. Unless instead of using only a single weapon per round is meant to be a single weapon per turn.
You can't make the AoO with a different weapon at all. You already chosed to only use one weapon in that round.


Some pilot feat abilities vs LoE: The Innovade's machine controlling aura, the Cyber Newtype's telepathy aura, both and the Coordinator's ability to detect within their aura's range and the Leader feat's aura; do they ignore line of effect or are perhaps spread/continuous burst effects? As all they require is for the potential targets to be with in their aura's range.
Telepathy still works as telepathy, blindsight still works as blindsight.

Clarified for the Innovade's custom aura.

It may be obvious that Counter is a very powerful feat. Should there be a limit to the number of times it can be picked? Whether X per Y HD or by applying a limit in its usage, such as not being possible to use it more than once for the same thing (which promotes having more feats Counter can be used with, which also decreases the number of feats that can be dumped into Counter). So it could counter only once for Defend, once on Offensive Support and once on a defensive weapon.

Maybe a limit to the amount of Leader feat picks as well. A regular cohort or a second officer cohort could have nothing else to do than get pumped with Leader feats. The second officer may be prevented from having allies within the ship benefit from it because of that clause about him not being able to contribute to the fight except through spirit usage (unless the he gets command while a multiclass captain leaving on his real robot) but regular cohorts do not have that restriction.
Limited both to 1+1/4 HD.

So in my discussions with Anomander I have found that Moon Vanguard very much would benefit from a section in the Mecha Basics thread defining how it and it's Nanoarmor can and cannot interact with a multiclassing/gestalt Super Pilot, Real Pilot, and Ship Captain's mechas/ships.
Yeah, no, it's in another subforum altogether.

I've never thought about it before, but Super Nanoarmors that take advantage of the Growth upgrade would be tricky to wear whilst inside most Real Robots. For example, Katherine's Nanoarmor is Gargantuan. On Mecha scale she is a Small sized Mecha. Her Real Robot is Medium sized on Mecha scale. The mental picture here is an unmodified Real Robot having a cockpit big enough to accommodate a Mecha only 1 size smaller than the Real Robot.
Well that's more of power armor for your power armor, which isn't that rare. There's quite a lot of Gundams where the mecha ends up piloting a bigger module.  The Huckebein MK III Boxer also is this, although doesn't get any special rules since it was one of the first ones and I was/am too lazy to add any special rules to represent that in particular when the original game also didn't care much besides "now counts as a bigger/stronger Huckebein, enjoy".

Visually, I can't see this working despite this being exactly what I based my entire character around at the beginning  :lmao

Realistically, A Moon Vanguard/Real Pilot would have to have a very customized Real Robot to accommodate being piloted with an equipped Nanoarmor. Hell, at 16th level that Nanoarmor could be the same size as the Real Robot you're trying to pilot. What is the Real Robot now if we continue to try to make this work? An exoskeleton for the Nanoarmor with the Nanoarmor itself realigning and installing itself to become all of the functioning systems that make a Mecha work? So now in this hypothetical, A Moon Vanguard/Real Pilot's Real Robot has become a suit of armor for you suit of armor.
Gundam Seed.jpg

On the other hand, all of this weirdness is entirely avoidable if the Moon Vanguard gestalts/multis into Super Pilot and just has a Super Robot with Growth upgrades itself. But now we're all redundant with a Super Nanoarmor and a Super Robot.

On to more specific things related to my character though. Anomander had this quote from you in response to one of his questions long ago.
Quote
nanoarmor is a very small mecha, a piece of gear with its own stats that borrows abilities from you, not a self-buff. Otherwise this will end with you trying to cram mechas of diferent sizes inside each other to try to stack all their abilities.
I'll let overdrive work with the "bigger" mecha. But you still can't use the nanoarmor's HP/DR/saves/AC/weapons/arsenal.
I'll make a special exception for the bigger mecha geting the youkai-forged blades from your nanoarmor however.

So Overdrive can affect the Mecha you're piloting with a Nanoarmor, but no using the Nano's HP/DR/Saves/AC/Weapons/Arsenal. Cool cool. What about when the "bigger" mecha gets critted with you inside, inside your Nanoarmor?
Nanoarmor eats it along the mecha, fleshy bits at the core are safe for now.

Can you use your Nano's energy to fuel the "bigger" mecha?
No.

You allowed Youkai-Forged Blades from the Nanoarmor to be able to be used through to the "bigger" mecha, but what about any Super Nano upgrades that are being applied specifically to the YFBs? Main Weapon, for example.
No. The YFB will count as another in-built weapon of the bigger mecha using base stats only.

In regards to Katherine; being a Real Pilot and a Moon Vanguard (of which both classes are Pilot classes), how does Born to Fight interact with the Moon Vanguard's Maneuver system compared to how it works with a Real/Super/Ship Pilot class' maneuver system? Born to Fight calls out being able to use "Pilot Maneuvers" while outside of your mecha, not caring whether they are readied or not readied maneuvers because most Pilot classes to not have Readied/Unreadied maneuvers. Can Born to Fight be used to access any Pilot Maneuver from your Moon Vanguard's known list regardless of it being readied or not?
I gotta admit, I may have been already using it like that on a couple occasions >.> At least for me, it hasn't seemed overpowered yet, especially with the 5min cooldown attached to each maneuver used as such. Admittedly I saw it as a more versatile version of Tome of Battle's Adaptive style.
Correct, the cooldown is a key penalty.

I'm not sure I got everything as I've had a lot of questions come and go over the last 2-3 days...maybe Anomander will come by and fill in some of my gaps.....

Oh, this last one's entirely offtopic from my above stuff but any plans on a tactical Pilot Feat for Martial Machine like you've got for all the other Pilot Schools so far?
Yes once I get some important work finished in RL and actually get time to write new homebrew.

EDIT: Considering my Yokai-Forged Blades are a built-in weapon of my Nanoarmor, does that mean my hands are technically free/empty to hold things?

Yes.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on January 16, 2017, 12:26:44 AM
Thanks for the swift answers! I appreciate.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on January 16, 2017, 04:52:24 AM
Quote
Yeah, no, it's in another subforum altogether.

Well then how about putting it in the Moon Vanguard's thread? It's a Pilot class that pulls almost all of it's abilities from the SRW Pilot stuff and all  :huh

Edit: And yes, thank you! That clears up some things I may or may not have been doing wrong -_-'

Quote
Well that's more of power armor for your power armor, which isn't that rare. There's quite a lot of Gundams where the mecha ends up piloting a bigger module.  The Huckebein MK III Boxer also is this, although doesn't get any special rules since it was one of the first ones and I was/am too lazy to add any special rules to represent that in particular when the original game also didn't care much besides "now counts as a bigger/stronger Huckebein, enjoy".

Gundam Seed.jpg

The only show I can recall ever seeing bigass mechas piloting biggerass mechas was Gurren Lagann  :p
But those are all Supers and Supers inside Supers makes sense to me.
It's the Reals that get weird  :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on January 17, 2017, 03:07:29 PM
Maybe a limit to the amount of Leader feat picks as well. A regular cohort or a second officer cohort could have nothing else to do than get pumped with Leader feats. The second officer may be prevented from having allies within the ship benefit from it because of that clause about him not being able to contribute to the fight except through spirit usage (unless the he gets command while a multiclass captain leaving on his real robot) but regular cohorts do not have that restriction.
Limited both to 1+1/4 HD.

With this change to Leader, it seems to me (based on observations of the Ship Captain in my campaign) that Ships Full of Hope needs to have its range decoupled from the number of times you have the Leader feat, because as it stands, a ship captain's range with buffs will now be only 1+1/4th HD. If you want to keep the number of Leader feats relevant, make the range on Ships Full of Hope maneuvers be leadership range + ship captain level. Basically, my game's Ship Captain has been taking almost nothing but Leader just because he can't use any of his maneuvers on the rest of the party if he doesn't. I don't know if that's intended, but it feels very harsh.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 17, 2017, 04:58:13 PM
Extended Ships Full of Hope range based on ship captain level.



Quote
Yeah, no, it's in another subforum altogether.

Well then how about putting it in the Moon Vanguard's thread? It's a Pilot class that pulls almost all of it's abilities from the SRW Pilot stuff and all  :huh
I'll consider it.

Quote
Well that's more of power armor for your power armor, which isn't that rare. There's quite a lot of Gundams where the mecha ends up piloting a bigger module.  The Huckebein MK III Boxer also is this, although doesn't get any special rules since it was one of the first ones and I was/am too lazy to add any special rules to represent that in particular when the original game also didn't care much besides "now counts as a bigger/stronger Huckebein, enjoy".

Gundam Seed.jpg

The only show I can recall ever seeing bigass mechas piloting biggerass mechas was Gurren Lagann  :p
But those are all Supers and Supers inside Supers makes sense to me.
It's the Reals that get weird  :lmao

(http://imgur.com/Db8Lrgn.jpg)

Here's your real robot inside another real robot.

And that one in particular fought a bigger real robot (http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/GNMA-XCVII_Alvatore) that had another smaller real robot (http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/GNMS-XCVII_Alvaaron) inside.

Gundam was the one doing the whole robot piloting from inside another robot cool in the first place. Probaly because the series has always been partially a comercial for toy robots, and that's the perfect excuse to adding new models that combine directly over your previous models. :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on January 17, 2017, 08:18:30 PM
Weird, I don't remember the Alvatore at all...00 was one of my favorites too. Huh.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on January 17, 2017, 08:41:29 PM
(http://news.entertainmentearth.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/BA97400-370x600.jpg)
Technically speaking the Red Dragon Thunderzord is wearing the other Zords (link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71Hr3AzLhGM#t=0m46s))
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 17, 2017, 08:52:41 PM
Weird, I don't remember the Alvatore at all...00 was one of my favorites too. Huh.

Just the first season's final boss. :p

Much earlier there's the Gundam Dendrobium (http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/RX-78GP03_Gundam_%22Dendrobium%22) although he only appeared on the Stardust memory OVA from 1991.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on January 18, 2017, 03:19:08 AM
Mmh. Maybe the Spirit Up feat should also have a similar scaling maximum number of picks.

Am I correct in assuming that when the arsenal options state that they increase the spirit points of the pilot the extra spirit points apply only while the pilot is controlling the mecha? Those from the Arsenal accessories affect any pilot so it seems they are gone when the pilot is on foot and must be recovered once the pilot controls the mecha again. The Soul of the Machine upgrade however refers to the main pilot, so the effect follows that one pilot no matter who is currently piloting the mecha although it may still require for the main pilot to be controlling he mecha for him to gain the benefits. It is unclear.

Is the Moon Vanguard meant to have access to the new pilot martial disciplines as well?

Also, almost every class restricts the use of a spirit to once per turn per spirit. That limit should probably be generalized by adding it in the spirit's thread.
Something else... I noticed that since there is no range to spirits and since you encourage the idea of having supporters on the sides that assist with spirit usage, there should probably also be a limit on the application of a spirit as well for the receiver, such as each spirit cannot be applied to the same target more than once unless it specifically has a clause on the matter (such as Provoke).

It is otherwise possible to have level 1 minions and similar followers all get the Aid spirit and Spirit Regen and recover a PC's spirits by 10 each, taking turns to recharge in full.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on January 18, 2017, 11:55:05 AM
Weird, I don't remember the Alvatore at all...00 was one of my favorites too. Huh.

Just the first season's final boss. :p

Much earlier there's the Gundam Dendrobium (http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/RX-78GP03_Gundam_%22Dendrobium%22) although he only appeared on the Stardust memory OVA from 1991.

And don't forget the METEOR (http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Mobile_suit_Embedded_Tactical_EnfORcer)s from Gundam SEED!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 18, 2017, 01:15:34 PM
Well, having checked this and skipped... most of it.

At least I know I have a bonus feat to rearrange, since spirit regen stopped stacking after I last touched my feats. :T
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on February 08, 2017, 02:39:25 AM
Since Born to Fight is a [Pilot] feat, can Counter's bonus swift or immediate action be used to activate Born to Fight's ability to activate one of your pilot maneuvers?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 08, 2017, 07:10:48 PM
Mmh. Maybe the Spirit Up feat should also have a similar scaling maximum number of picks.
I'll wait until somebody finds a way to abuse that one.

Am I correct in assuming that when the arsenal options state that they increase the spirit points of the pilot the extra spirit points apply only while the pilot is controlling the mecha? Those from the Arsenal accessories affect any pilot so it seems they are gone when the pilot is on foot and must be recovered once the pilot controls the mecha again. The Soul of the Machine upgrade however refers to the main pilot, so the effect follows that one pilot no matter who is currently piloting the mecha although it may still require for the main pilot to be controlling he mecha for him to gain the benefits. It is unclear.
Yes only while controling the mecha.

Is the Moon Vanguard meant to have access to the new pilot martial disciplines as well?
Yes got to go and update the moon vanguard.

Also, almost every class restricts the use of a spirit to once per turn per spirit. That limit should probably be generalized by adding it in the spirit's thread.
Too much work at this point for no pratical gain.

Something else... I noticed that since there is no range to spirits and since you encourage the idea of having supporters on the sides that assist with spirit usage, there should probably also be a limit on the application of a spirit as well for the receiver, such as each spirit cannot be applied to the same target more than once unless it specifically has a clause on the matter (such as Provoke).
That only results in everybody using scan on their own allies to screw enemy scans. Still eat the save penalty but will block the other side from learning anything.

It is otherwise possible to have level 1 minions and similar followers all get the Aid spirit and Spirit Regen and recover a PC's spirits by 10 each, taking turns to recharge in full.
I may rememember a SRW boss or ten like that.

Kill. Mooks. First.

Mind you, to do it with 1st level mooks they'll need at least 36  SP at first level meaning Spirit up x2. So meh, added limitation to Spirit up and now it's impossible that early.

Since Born to Fight is a [Pilot] feat, can Counter's bonus swift or immediate action be used to activate Born to Fight's ability to activate one of your pilot maneuvers?

No, since Born to Fight isn't the one being activated.[
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on February 08, 2017, 11:23:00 PM
Quote
That only results in everybody using scan on their own allies to screw enemy scans. Still eat the save penalty but will block the other side from learning anything.
Could not apply to Scan since it targets enemies rather than allies.

Quote
I may rememember a SRW boss or ten like that.
Kill. Mooks. First.
Since there is no distance or anything like that to use spirits, you already confirmed that it was all right for hidden supports to use Spirits on their allies while they hide among the crowds or watch the battle from afar. The mook could also be within the mecha as with the pilot, then use the spirits on the pilot. Kind of like the ship captain's second/third in command.

Quote
Mind you, to do it with 1st level mooks they'll need at least 36  SP at first level meaning Spirit up x2. So meh, added limitation to Spirit up and now it's impossible that early.
Real Pilot 1 = 6 spirit points + 20 spirit up + 5 custom color arsenal = 31 spirit points to activate Aid (30 for real pilots)
Have it put its bonus feat on Spirit Regen to get a 3 rounds cooldown per use. Rotate with the other followers.
Have them all watch the battle on a TV screen in their mecha somewhere away so they stay safe.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on February 09, 2017, 01:14:14 AM
More annoying questions about Born to Fight.

Can you Overcharge your accessories while outside your mecha?

As examples ranging from abusive (overcharging to regain spirit while not near your mecha) to useful (overcharging to reduce or prevent damage to your mecha if it's in trouble and for some reason [like the ship carrying it exploding!] and you're not piloting it)

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on February 09, 2017, 01:34:06 AM
You could probably overcharge your Moon Vanguard accessories but not the mecha's if you're not piloting it.
If the nano armor gets wrecked, you'd still have the accessories on so technically still should be able to overcharge them.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 11, 2017, 06:58:11 AM
Quote
That only results in everybody using scan on their own allies to screw enemy scans. Still eat the save penalty but will block the other side from learning anything.
Could not apply to Scan since it targets enemies rather than allies.
I don't want to hear that from somebody who made multiple in-game posts claiming "enemies" and "allies" are meaningless tags that just mean "whatever target I wish in this split second".

Quote
I may rememember a SRW boss or ten like that.
Kill. Mooks. First.
Since there is no distance or anything like that to use spirits, you already confirmed that it was all right for hidden supports to use Spirits on their allies while they hide among the crowds or watch the battle from afar. The mook could also be within the mecha as with the pilot, then use the spirits on the pilot. Kind of like the ship captain's second/third in command.
Ok, freeloaders no longer can use spirits (or anything else besides basic speech that cannot trigger other stuff) unless they have a specific ability for that.

As for hiding in the crowd, that's why you open the battle with a colony drop or ten. In the case of goody two shoes that's why you call evacuations.

Quote
Mind you, to do it with 1st level mooks they'll need at least 36  SP at first level meaning Spirit up x2. So meh, added limitation to Spirit up and now it's impossible that early.
Real Pilot 1 = 6 spirit points + 20 spirit up + 5 custom color arsenal = 31 spirit points to activate Aid (30 for real pilots)
Have it put its bonus feat on Spirit Regen to get a 3 rounds cooldown per use. Rotate with the other followers.
Have them all watch the battle on a TV screen in their mecha somewhere away so they stay safe.
Smoke launchers exist for a reason. If your opponent managed to set up full multi-angle real-time video with no lag at all, you may want to re-consider your anti-jamming capacities and your ability to pick your battlegrounds.


More annoying questions about Born to Fight.

Can you Overcharge your accessories while outside your mecha?

As examples ranging from abusive (overcharging to regain spirit while not near your mecha) to useful (overcharging to reduce or prevent damage to your mecha if it's in trouble and for some reason [like the ship carrying it exploding!] and you're not piloting it)
No, need to be inside mecha.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: ketaro on February 11, 2017, 08:17:13 AM
To clarify, does that also include having the nanoarmor equipped and not just inactively stored and/or broken like in Anomander's example?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 11, 2017, 09:08:31 AM
Inactively stored wouldn't work, but broken with acessories still working would.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on February 11, 2017, 05:41:48 PM
Quote
I don't want to hear that from somebody who made multiple in-game posts claiming "enemies" and "allies" are meaningless tags that just mean "whatever target I wish in this split second".
It was to use an ability that works on allies to save someone that seemed forced to suicide, I recall. And you refused it then.
But later you got real set on abilities that work on enemies to also work on allies for weird reasons, so I'm not sure anymore what your stance on targeting is.
Either way, the idea was that Scan could specifically mention that it can be applied more than once on the same target, since it targets opponents, like Provoke.
Just trying to help. If you're fine with the same spirit applying multiple times among allies, then all right.
You'll notice I'm actually trying to have you shut down my options before I use them.

Quote
Ok, freeloaders no longer can use spirits (or anything else besides basic speech that cannot trigger other stuff) unless they have a specific ability for that.
Excellent. Thank you. I think it is safe to assume they can still take an action to exit the mecha, though. It could also make sense that they wouldn't be able to unless the pilot opens the door/kicks them out.

Quote
As for hiding in the crowd, that's why you open the battle with a colony drop or ten. In the case of goody two shoes that's why you call evacuations.
Myeah. Commoners on foot have a speed of 30-ft and they may well be in a mecha battleground measured on mu-scale. By the time they evacuate anywhere battle's probably over anyway. If they can evacuate. Anyway, if you're fine with what this makes possible, then all right.

Quote
Smoke launchers exist for a reason. If your opponent managed to set up full multi-angle real-time video with no lag at all, you may want to re-consider your anti-jamming capacities and your ability to pick your battlegrounds.
Good advice. Though wait, is the setting offering anti-jamming options?
Speaking of jammers, Heaven-Sailing Dragon's jammer mentions blocking all communications. That's a very general term since it technically also blocks sound/speech.
Also, considering a jammer can have immense range while itself being anywhere within it, should it be possible for those within the jammer to detect the direction of the jammer? Typical divinations to find stuff like scrying should count as a communication and are jammed as well.
It would make sense for a more local jamming since the hole in the radar is there and you can see the surface blocked, but when it applies to entire planets and wider, it gets trickier to make a mission on "We must destroy the Jamming engine", which are usually fixed locations such as those that would have been built through a Support Staff base and they cannot run away out of reach and reapply the jammer. Or stealth off and remain underground somewhere where nobody will ever find it.
I'm not sure the campaign setting is offering a counter to jamming beyond "we jammed it for you too." Perhaps making the uber jams an additional support staff base option, making the ship's more local such as the immediate battlefield and making it possible for those with wide communication reach to detect the hole in their radar, which would allow one to calculate the position of the jammer based on the intersecting spheres of effect.
Speaking of the support staff, I'm very interested in the remaining specializations. Particularly the Science.
Also:
Quote
You can use the Jammer and Communication Hub simultaneously, but half of all your energy recovery is halved.
That's probably meant to apply the halving once rather than making it a quarter.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on February 13, 2017, 03:38:22 PM
Anomander, is there a reason that Soul of the Mechanic doesn't grant a branch of soul tech with the feat alone, and you have to spend a spirit to get any benefit out of the feat at all? I feel that it grants supers a viable build that isn't just maximum growth, and I don't want my super pilot player to feel restricted from taking it because he has to give up a spirit as well.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on February 14, 2017, 12:17:49 AM
The feat grants additional options with a class feature. There is no feat that grants extra spirits, so getting a free tech branch seems too good an extra.
I could also turn it into an alternate class feature that allows a pilot to get a bonus Engineer feat upon selecting Soul of the Mechanic if choose to forfeit the ability to use spirit points for anything else than Custom Soul Tech. And then a feat must be spend to access spirits normally if the pilot changes his mind.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 14, 2017, 09:09:54 AM
I feel that it grants supers a viable build that isn't just maximum growth

Got a burst of inspiration and on the line of Great One added Tek Knight for smaller super robots, Zero Pattern for medium super robots, plus Super Servos and Absolute Barrier upgrade lines.

Quote
I don't want to hear that from somebody who made multiple in-game posts claiming "enemies" and "allies" are meaningless tags that just mean "whatever target I wish in this split second".
It was to use an ability that works on allies to save someone that seemed forced to suicide, I recall. And you refused it then.
But later you got real set on abilities that work on enemies to also work on allies for weird reasons, so I'm not sure anymore what your stance on targeting is.
The same as always, an alliance is a two-way street, while it only takes one to want to hurt somebody else. Can't help somebody that does not want to be helped and everything.

Either way, the idea was that Scan could specifically mention that it can be applied more than once on the same target, since it targets opponents, like Provoke.
Just trying to help. If you're fine with the same spirit applying multiple times among allies, then all right.
You'll notice I'm actually trying to have you shut down my options before I use them.
Fair enough, but spamming benefical spirits in an ally when the going gets tough is a staple of both the computer games and related media. Army mooks cheering their commander on even if their weapons are outclassed is something that should be viable.

Quote
Ok, freeloaders no longer can use spirits (or anything else besides basic speech that cannot trigger other stuff) unless they have a specific ability for that.
Excellent. Thank you. I think it is safe to assume they can still take an action to exit the mecha, though. It could also make sense that they wouldn't be able to unless the pilot opens the door/kicks them out.
Good point, added clause to exit and opposed rolls if the pilot does not want to let the other out.

Quote
As for hiding in the crowd, that's why you open the battle with a colony drop or ten. In the case of goody two shoes that's why you call evacuations.
Myeah. Commoners on foot have a speed of 30-ft and they may well be in a mecha battleground measured on mu-scale. By the time they evacuate anywhere battle's probably over anyway. If they can evacuate. Anyway, if you're fine with what this makes possible, then all right.
That's one of the reasons I made the Support Staff able to spam transports and bunkers and whatnot.

Quote
Smoke launchers exist for a reason. If your opponent managed to set up full multi-angle real-time video with no lag at all, you may want to re-consider your anti-jamming capacities and your ability to pick your battlegrounds.
Good advice. Though wait, is the setting offering anti-jamming options?
Speaking of jammers, Heaven-Sailing Dragon's jammer mentions blocking all communications. That's a very general term since it technically also blocks sound/speech.
Yes it's supposed to be broad. Speaking of which nerfed it a bit by reducing communication range to 30 mu max instead of fully blocking.

Also, considering a jammer can have immense range while itself being anywhere within it, should it be possible for those within the jammer to detect the direction of the jammer? Typical divinations to find stuff like scrying should count as a communication and are jammed as well.
It would make sense for a more local jamming since the hole in the radar is there and you can see the surface blocked, but when it applies to entire planets and wider, it gets trickier to make a mission on "We must destroy the Jamming engine", which are usually fixed locations such as those that would have been built through a Support Staff base and they cannot run away out of reach and reapply the jammer. Or stealth off and remain underground somewhere where nobody will ever find it.
Jammers being super-effective is kinda needed for any mecha story, in particular if you want battles to happen close enough that hitting stuff with pointy plasma sticks is still a viable tactic.

Also many forces in mecha settings are mobile while remaining heavily jammed. From Doctor Hell's robot castle to the White Base and their sucessors. Often finding, intercepting and destroying such targets is the main objective of the campaign. You need to get creative from capturing and interrogating prisioners to setting up baits to disguises or provoking them to come out somehow to outwit them to predict their next target to plain old sending scouts to search the area.

I'm not sure the campaign setting is offering a counter to jamming beyond "we jammed it for you too." Perhaps making the uber jams an additional support staff base option, making the ship's more local such as the immediate battlefield and making it possible for those with wide communication reach to detect the hole in their radar, which would allow one to calculate the position of the jammer based on the intersecting spheres of effect.
If that's a viable tactic, then there's no need for mechas, you just inform the artillery/missile division and blow up your enemies from beyond the horizon.


Speaking of the support staff, I'm very interested in the remaining specializations. Particularly the Science.
Seems like I've worked some motivation for this today, let's see if I can take care of that.

Also:
Quote
You can use the Jammer and Communication Hub simultaneously, but half of all your energy recovery is halved.
That's probably meant to apply the halving once rather than making it a quarter.
Fixed, thanks.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on February 14, 2017, 11:17:18 AM
All good!

Quote
If that's a viable tactic, then there's no need for mechas, you just inform the artillery/missile division and blow up your enemies from beyond the horizon.
Not necessarily. Jammers are often in a base, which could well have anti-artillery and force shields. Coincidentally, the big mission is also taking down the mighty forceshield, which could protect the jammer. Not to say that with the current pilot disciplines a mecha/ship could well be an anti-artillery force all by itself.
Working out the area of effect of the jam on hidden jammers that aren't moving all that much to calculate its source's position seems like very valid tactic. Especially to force it to move if it is mobile. And stuff that moves is easier to notice. Prevents the case of the galaxy-wide underground hidden jammer that everyone forgot about except the big bad.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: CKirk on February 14, 2017, 01:23:05 PM
My super pilot is expressing much interest in the new Zero Pattern upgrade, specifically Zero Weapon, and wants to know if the Zero Reach option will improve his Area melee Main Weapon. I'm inclined to think yes, but by the rules it doesn't. What's the intention for that interaction?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on February 14, 2017, 01:46:50 PM
Its all nice though I'll note that Zero Stance is absolutely abusable in so many ways. It also doesn't have a penalty for being sizes away from medium.
One example among many; a mecha could use buffs before splitting, such as the Zeal spirit. Then all your copies have two rounds, and can end the turn by undoing the copies.

Some mention the Fine size category. But miniaturization cannot go below diminutive.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 14, 2017, 03:20:18 PM
Its all nice though I'll note that Zero Stance is absolutely abusable in so many ways. It also doesn't have a penalty for being sizes away from medium.

Growth adds an AC/Attack penalty but provides a +3.5dmg increase to each weapon.
Plating: +5~+35hp & +1~+9dr, 1/2 dodge.
Power: +2~+15 damage, but 1/2 speed.
Agility: +5~+35 speed & +1~+6 dodge, but 1/2 n-ac.
Targeting: +2~+14 attack, but 1/2 dr.


Miniaturization adds an AC/Attack bonus, and doesn't penalize damage.
Reactor: +5~+35 energy, but 1/2 spirit.
Soul: +5~+20 spirit & +1~+4 spirit regen, but 1/2 hp.
Storage: +1 hardpoint & +20 arsenal, but 1/2 energy.
Servos: +5~+8 to str-checks & a fuck-ton of carry increases, but 1/2 arsenal.

   To bribe you from not changing your size you have the Zero line.
Arts: +1 pilot level with maneuvers & +1 to maneuvers DCs per 4 pilot levels, size changes penalize this.
-Stance: count as being in every stance at once for the purposes of feats.
-Attack: strikes deal +(stance_levelx2) damage, also Zero can be taken once but Attack multiple times?
-Defense: +4 saves/ac/opposed_rolls from a martial school and you become immune to two maneuvers.
Entropy: elemental resist 5 & +1d6 to weapons & a 30ft aura that deals 1d4 per four levels, size changes penalize this.
-Fog: adds fog to the aura.
-Range: aura halves ranged weapons, your brain will hurt thinking about this.
-Speed: everyone else has 1/2 speed in your aura.
State: duplicate your self into a fragile little glass cannon that cannot heal/recover/regenerate, size changes don't care.
-No choices?
Weapon: +3 ac/dr/saves/str_checks if you use one weapon (also +50% ability dmg too), size changes penalize this.
-Swing: free action whirlwind when you use a martial strike.
-Reach: reach for melee, no aoo for ranged.
-Range: melee becomes 20ft ranged with brutal & ranged gains +40mu.

Some suggested changes.
1. Change ft to mu.
2. Larger mechs should have the Tek's Storage and smaller mechs should have Great's Agility.
3. Zero State needs choices, probably ones that make it less of a suicide option like allowing one of hp/spirit/energy to regenerate.
4. Zero State should also be penalized based on size.
5. Zero State's 32 copies is excessively game breaking. After a certain point they all have 0 ammo/energy and die in one hit (in phantasy star that point is "one clone") meaning all you're doing is asking for them to fully abuse it's offensive power. Like sending 2~4 clones away so they can never die and using class features or tank mode's limitless built-in ammo to deal thousands of damage (or just be a halfing with swarmfighting and melee them to death). I'd go with 1 clone per 4hd, so it's slightly less broken, but see the 6th entry too.
6. Zero State's clones should not be an XP-free copy of the banned Ice Assassin Spell, a little consistent with what you claim to hate and your homebrew being thirty two times worse would be useful. Maybe the clones can act like a Familiar's Mech but with a better stat block. Like it'll have 1/4 hp, 1/5th energy, one weapon that deals built-in+mod damage that ignores DR, or something.
7. Zero Arts, holy crap. Thanks to the +3 stacking bonus to your level (ie IL), you get 9th level maneuvers by lv14. Did you think Touhou's x5 stuff was broken? Now get it three levels faster!
8. Andomander knows your crazy homebrew better and things Zero Art's Stance is also pretty insane.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on February 14, 2017, 03:51:24 PM
I'm pretty sure the increase to pilot level is only meant to only affect the modifiers based on pilot level rather than maneuver accessibility. Much like a bonus to caster level only affect the spells themselves. So, an effective pilot level increase, like the super pilot's favored maneuvers and the Numan's racial thingy. That's a lot of potential pilot level increases.
Might want to be clarified all the same indeed.

I similarly have a lot of balance recommendations for the new abilities since many are quite over the top compared to their Great One equivalent. The Zero line, mostly, considering that they get free increases for not changing size while actually changing size has its own upgrade cost. But Soro summed up quite a few of these points nicely.

But there is a lot more to comment on, when I'll have time to.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 14, 2017, 06:18:35 PM
My super pilot is expressing much interest in the new Zero Pattern upgrade, specifically Zero Weapon, and wants to know if the Zero Reach option will improve his Area melee Main Weapon. I'm inclined to think yes, but by the rules it doesn't. What's the intention for that interaction?

I hadn't thought of that particular interaction but you're right there should be synergy so added it.

Quote
If that's a viable tactic, then there's no need for mechas, you just inform the artillery/missile division and blow up your enemies from beyond the horizon.
Not necessarily. Jammers are often in a base, which could well have anti-artillery and force shields. Coincidentally, the big mission is also taking down the mighty forceshield, which could protect the jammer. Not to say that with the current pilot disciplines a mecha/ship could well be an anti-artillery force all by itself.
Working out the area of effect of the jam on hidden jammers that aren't moving all that much to calculate its source's position seems like very valid tactic. Especially to force it to move if it is mobile. And stuff that moves is easier to notice. Prevents the case of the galaxy-wide underground hidden jammer that everyone forgot about except the big bad.
I'll consider it after rules for super fortifications are in place.

Its all nice though I'll note that Zero Stance is absolutely abusable in so many ways. It also doesn't have a penalty for being sizes away from medium.
One example among many; a mecha could use buffs before splitting, such as the Zeal spirit. Then all your copies have two rounds, and can end the turn by undoing the copies.
Yeah, forgot the anti-size change clause. Added that plus clause against temp buffs.

Some mention the Fine size category. But miniaturization cannot go below diminutive.
Just planning ahead.

Its all nice though I'll note that Zero Stance is absolutely abusable in so many ways. It also doesn't have a penalty for being sizes away from medium.

Growth adds an AC/Attack penalty but provides a +3.5dmg increase to each weapon.
Plating: +5~+35hp & +1~+9dr, 1/2 dodge.
Power: +2~+15 damage, but 1/2 speed.
Agility: +5~+35 speed & +1~+6 dodge, but 1/2 n-ac.
Targeting: +2~+14 attack, but 1/2 dr.


Miniaturization adds an AC/Attack bonus, and doesn't penalize damage.
Reactor: +5~+35 energy, but 1/2 spirit.
Soul: +5~+20 spirit & +1~+4 spirit regen, but 1/2 hp.
Storage: +1 hardpoint & +20 arsenal, but 1/2 energy.
Servos: +5~+8 to str-checks & a fuck-ton of carry increases, but 1/2 arsenal.

   To bribe you from not changing your size you have the Zero line.
Arts: +1 pilot level with maneuvers & +1 to maneuvers DCs per 4 pilot levels, size changes penalize this.
-Stance: count as being in every stance at once for the purposes of feats.
-Attack: strikes deal +(stance_levelx2) damage, also Zero can be taken once but Attack multiple times?
-Defense: +4 saves/ac/opposed_rolls from a martial school and you become immune to two maneuvers.
Entropy: elemental resist 5 & +1d6 to weapons & a 30ft aura that deals 1d4 per four levels, size changes penalize this.
-Fog: adds fog to the aura.
-Range: aura halves ranged weapons, your brain will hurt thinking about this.
-Speed: everyone else has 1/2 speed in your aura.
State: duplicate your self into a fragile little glass cannon that cannot heal/recover/regenerate, size changes don't care.
-No choices?
Weapon: +3 ac/dr/saves/str_checks if you use one weapon (also +50% ability dmg too), size changes penalize this.
-Swing: free action whirlwind when you use a martial strike.
-Reach: reach for melee, no aoo for ranged.
-Range: melee becomes 20ft ranged with brutal & ranged gains +40mu.

Some suggested changes.
1. Change ft to mu.
2. Larger mechs should have the Tek's Storage and smaller mechs should have Great's Agility.
3. Zero State needs choices, probably ones that make it less of a suicide option like allowing one of hp/spirit/energy to regenerate.
4. Zero State should also be penalized based on size.
5. Zero State's 32 copies is excessively game breaking. After a certain point they all have 0 ammo/energy and die in one hit (in phantasy star that point is "one clone") meaning all you're doing is asking for them to fully abuse it's offensive power. Like sending 2~4 clones away so they can never die and using class features or tank mode's limitless built-in ammo to deal thousands of damage (or just be a halfing with swarmfighting and melee them to death). I'd go with 1 clone per 4hd, so it's slightly less broken, but see the 6th entry too.
6. Zero State's clones should not be an XP-free copy of the banned Ice Assassin Spell, a little consistent with what you claim to hate and your homebrew being thirty two times worse would be useful. Maybe the clones can act like a Familiar's Mech but with a better stat block. Like it'll have 1/4 hp, 1/5th energy, one weapon that deals built-in+mod damage that ignores DR, or something.
7. Zero Arts, holy crap. Thanks to the +3 stacking bonus to your level (ie IL), you get 9th level maneuvers by lv14. Did you think Touhou's x5 stuff was broken? Now get it three levels faster!
8. Andomander knows your crazy homebrew better and things Zero Art's Stance is also pretty insane.
1. Done.
2. That sounds logic. And super robots are about kicking logic to the curb. Also bigger robots already benefit from investing in more weapons since they deal more damage.
3/4/5/6. Yes, I forgot the anti-size clause for Zero State. Overhauled quite a bit following your suggestions. New highights include only up to two weapons remain operational, only 1 copy per 4 PL base, copies act worst than the original the more you have, and picks as you level up including HP/energy/spirit recovery and reduced penalties+more clones in return for them being limited to basic meleeing without any feats even. Also for the record, Ice Assassin has no cap besides how many spell slots you can throw at it along a Thought Bottle.
7. As pointed out already the PL increase is only meant for maneuver effects. Clarified.
8. I blame it on Aldonoah Zero.

I similarly have a lot of balance recommendations for the new abilities since many are quite over the top compared to their Great One equivalent. The Zero line, mostly, considering that they get free increases for not changing size while actually changing size has its own upgrade cost. But Soro summed up quite a few of these points nicely.
Geez, one may think that there's no benefits for being big/small by itself. :P

But there is a lot more to comment on, when I'll have time to.
Yes, more unpaid work, everything's going according to the plan. Gendo.jpg
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 14, 2017, 09:24:41 PM
3/4/5/6. Yes, I forgot the anti-size clause for Zero State. Overhauled quite a bit following your suggestions.
And it's looking better. All through the -2 pilot level kind of has the same problem as the Maneuver side, it seems like every time you split you need to recalculate upgrades. Also as written the Arcane/Divine Pilot pay massively to use the ability, like 2~4 Spell Slots of each level just for splitting once, on top of every Slot used for some continued benefit prior to splitting. And what happens if the Pilot decides to step out? And sell his Magical Items?

Here is my attempt at wording this thing, it might need some more tweaks to get a concept across idk.
Quote
Zero State(Su/Ex): As a swift action your mecha can split in a perfect copies of itself provided no other copies currently exist, they appear adjacent to the original and can take their turn following the original's. When one of the copies die, if another exists, it simply vanishes in a personalized visual display. Since the mechs are separate they use their own separate pools of Hit Points, Energy, and Ammo evenly split between them at the time of fission (rounded down). This effect does not duplicate the pilot or anything stored within, rather they move into a quantum state in an extraplanar space and as long as the mech remains split anything inside is unable to exit by any means. Each mech benefits from having the pilot normally, including a split up portion of the pilot's HP pool for determining when a copy should vanish, except since only one pilot technically exists any resources such as Spell Slots, Readied Maneuvers, Charges remaining on Magical Items and other such effects are all depleted from the same pool, through the pilot is only killed if all the mechs are destroyed. Special effects already in place of the split are copied to each but each mech's turn reduces the duration as if an entire round has passed. The original and copies are treated as if they had two negative levels except they do not suffer a loss to their Spell Slots. When the mechs split most weapons become nonfunctional, each one gains up to two weapons the original full mech had access to.

For every 4 Super Pilot levels of the original you can maintain one extra copy simultaneously, but each extra copy increases the effective negative level penalty shared by all of them by one and you also gain one ability chosen from below. For each size category the super robot is away from medium count your pilot level as 4 lower for the purpose of this ability. While split none of the clones can recover Energy/Ammo/Spirit Points/HP or other limited uses abilities/resources by any means. Any copy can dismiss another as a swift action which reduces the effective negative level penalties as appropriate for the number of remaining duplicates. There is no true "original" while split, rather when there is only one remaining it regains it's nonfunctional weapons and the pilot is able to exit. You cannot use this ability if any of the split mechs (or pilot pools) would have a negative hit point value after splitting or interplanar movement are prohibited when you attempt to split. Finally the duplicates only last for a number of minutes equal to your HD, after which point all but the one of your choice vanishes as if dismissed.
It's a bit wordy but answers a few things and prevents a ton of combinations. It also prevents you from copying Zeal while allowing you to keep Wish-granted Inherent bonuses to ability scores too. Plus trapping a single-incarnation of the pilot just prevents a lot of imaginative abuse.

It also reduces the penalty to casters. Like Super Pilots can split up then send their "primary" in and die while their secondary clone that hung back in a safe house serves to negate their death without any penalties. And in between Encounters he can recombine, fully heal up and charge his Energy, Reready his Maneuvers, and resplit to set things up against for risk free Encounter within five minutes. And even if he were to resplit again during an Encounter him and his clones remain in their respective Stances and benefit from whatever additional effects they include. But as you had it set up, if an Arcane wanted to do the same thing it'd auto-wipe half the Spell Slots each time, the clone wipes the original's source of continued benefits, and they would have to burn another series of Slots for each buff they like.

Single-pool and multiplying the duration removes the initial Slot loss and doesn't penalize you because you decided to split after casting Haste on the party or losing the benefits of Inspire Courage because the Bard started singing a round before you split. But you still functionally have to cast Greater Mage Armor twice if you want two mechs to benefit from the spell for the same duration, or cast it three times if you want three mechs to benefit from it and so on. In this regard it also works a little against long duration buffs (such as Persist) too. Instead of splitting and uber buffing a "primary" target capable of healing HP and just forgoing Energy/Ammo, or maybe a Divine Pilot uses Temp HP and wants to recover energy for damage/barriers, or w/e you can imagine to increase the "primary's survivability. Setting up the anti-death clone reduces the buffs of the main combatant which can cause them to drop even if he finds a way to avoid being killed. He'll have a reason to merge back together and remain together beyond simply replenishing certain statistics.

Finally just a limited duration just plain caps popping a clone out in the morning anyway. Per round almost seems too limiting, specially given the other nerfs applied, but minutes let's you play with the ability for scouting or such.

Also for the record, Ice Assassin has no cap besides how many spell slots you can throw at it along a Thought Bottle.
Quote from: FAQ
Can a thought bottle (CAr, 150) be used to restore XP lost from casting a spell or creating a magic item?
No. The item description indicates that its intended function is to restore lost levels. It doesn’t erase XP costs from other sources.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on February 15, 2017, 03:13:32 AM
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 15, 2017, 12:18:54 PM
Progression rates for, well everything, being horribly off is kind of standard for Ols's homebrew through :p

Anyway, after reading your list over Zero State it looks like I addressed almost all of those except passengers/storage so that's really not to bad for a first pass and such a difficult ability to handle. After sleeping on it I think a duration on it would probably help some things too since it'd lessen it's save-state capability. Edit, just patched in a 1min/HD to it.

Zero Circuit should just be replaced with the elephant in the room. We're all thinking Naruto's Shadow Clones here so just go 100% on it. When dismissed half of the clone's HP/Energy/Ammo and such is returned to the remaining clones. The does let you use them as storage batteries, but they could already kind of do that like a Divine Pilot could use Touch of Healing to constantly cross heal each other. But at least at 1/2 rate they still lose something.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: Anomander on February 15, 2017, 03:42:06 PM
Another thought on Zero Status to consider; the use of Innovade to control the mecha remotely.
How everything is split around would raise its own series of questions. For one, are each copy under a stance? The original's stance may be dismissed if it counts as a temporary buff though the copies could then initiate a stance of their own since there is no limit to uses per day. Though it may be limited to only a single copy being able to be under the effect of a stance.

Quote
After sleeping on it I think a duration on it would probably help some things too since it'd lessen it's save-state capability. Edit, just patched in a 1min/HD to it.
Hm. Though adding a duration further makes it feel like an ability that doesn't belong in the Super Upgrade options.
To be honest, the first thing I thought about when I read Zero Stance is that it feels an awful lot like the Body out of Body Wujen spell. (I think that's what it's called, at least). And I recall that being a level 8 or 7 spell. And very much worth it.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 15, 2017, 04:49:40 PM
Stances are copied when they were split because they are not a finite resource. And in my rewrite, since the Pilot doesn't split, every Mech remains in the same Stance simultaneously rather than each one adapting a different one and w/e combos can be found through that.

Anyway, there is a ton of copy effects so my first thought was Fission, but Ice Assassin, Body Outside a Body, Simulacrum, Trickery Devotion, the plane of Mirrors, Lucid Dreaming, Mirror of Opposition, Shadow Double, Osl's Ancient Temple Ghostly Wheel of Pain, Osl's Venerable Battlefield's God Sign-Ancient Fate Linked by Cedars, or Osl's Doll Judgement's Puppeteer Theater, and maybe even Forest Child I suppose can all ring the bell. But you're right it feels more like a new ability than an upgrade. But it's not the first time Ols has printed something clear out of the blue.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 15, 2017, 07:07:58 PM
3/4/5/6. Yes, I forgot the anti-size clause for Zero State. Overhauled quite a bit following your suggestions.
And it's looking better. All through the -2 pilot level kind of has the same problem as the Maneuver side, it seems like every time you split you need to recalculate upgrades.
Clarified that the pilot level reduction is only for calculating ability effects, not which abilities you have available.

Also as written the Arcane/Divine Pilot pay massively to use the ability, like 2~4 Spell Slots of each level just for splitting once, on top of every Slot used for some continued benefit prior to splitting.
Excuse me for not making the upgrade super synergetic with the best ability in the game.

And what happens if the Pilot decides to step out?
They step out?

And sell his Magical Items?
The mecha is split. The pilot is split. Anything else isn't split, including personal items. Clarified, enjoy your half-naked piloting.

Here is my attempt at wording this thing, it might need some more tweaks to get a concept across idk.
Quote
Zero State(Su/Ex): As a swift action your mecha can split in a perfect copies of itself provided no other copies currently exist, they appear adjacent to the original and can take their turn following the original's. When one of the copies die, if another exists, it simply vanishes in a personalized visual display. Since the mechs are separate they use their own separate pools of Hit Points, Energy, and Ammo evenly split between them at the time of fission (rounded down). This effect does not duplicate the pilot or anything stored within, rather they move into a quantum state in an extraplanar space and as long as the mech remains split anything inside is unable to exit by any means. Each mech benefits from having the pilot normally, including a split up portion of the pilot's HP pool for determining when a copy should vanish, except since only one pilot technically exists any resources such as Spell Slots, Readied Maneuvers, Charges remaining on Magical Items and other such effects are all depleted from the same pool, through the pilot is only killed if all the mechs are destroyed. Special effects already in place of the split are copied to each but each mech's turn reduces the duration as if an entire round has passed. The original and copies are treated as if they had two negative levels except they do not suffer a loss to their Spell Slots. When the mechs split most weapons become nonfunctional, each one gains up to two weapons the original full mech had access to.
Let me stop you right there. I've had more than enough D&D discussions  that this final line can and will be interpreted as "every single weapon remains functional since 'most' is whatever number I please and thus shall be zero, plus gain two brand new weapons per copy".

Quote
For every 4 Super Pilot levels of the original you can maintain one extra copy simultaneously, but each extra copy increases the effective negative level penalty shared by all of them by one and you also gain one ability chosen from below. For each size category the super robot is away from medium count your pilot level as 4 lower for the purpose of this ability. While split none of the clones can recover Energy/Ammo/Spirit Points/HP or other limited uses abilities/resources by any means. Any copy can dismiss another as a swift action which reduces the effective negative level penalties as appropriate for the number of remaining duplicates. There is no true "original" while split, rather when there is only one remaining it regains it's nonfunctional weapons and the pilot is able to exit. You cannot use this ability if any of the split mechs (or pilot pools) would have a negative hit point value after splitting or interplanar movement are prohibited when you attempt to split. Finally the duplicates only last for a number of minutes equal to your HD, after which point all but the one of your choice vanishes as if dismissed.
It's a bit wordy but answers a few things and prevents a ton of combinations. It also prevents you from copying Zeal while allowing you to keep Wish-granted Inherent bonuses to ability scores too. Plus trapping a single-incarnation of the pilot just prevents a lot of imaginative abuse.
Too bad, pilot splitting is non-negotiable for me. Gear multiplying never happened and Zeal was already specifically blocked from being copied. I believe that's everything covered besides your wish of making this the only upgrade with limited uses per day which would make it the only upgrade with limited uses per day and in case it wasn't clear none of the upgrades have limited uses per day. Aka no upgrades with limited uses per day.

It also reduces the penalty to casters. Like Super Pilots can split up then send their "primary" in and die while their secondary clone that hung back in a safe house serves to negate their death without any penalties. And in between Encounters he can recombine, fully heal up and charge his Energy, Reready his Maneuvers, and resplit to set things up against for risk free Encounter within five minutes. And even if he were to resplit again during an Encounter him and his clones remain in their respective Stances and benefit from whatever additional effects they include. But as you had it set up, if an Arcane wanted to do the same thing it'd auto-wipe half the Spell Slots each time, the clone wipes the original's source of continued benefits, and they would have to burn another series of Slots for each buff they like.
Oh noes, casters don't dominate everything for once! The horror! The unimaginable horror! It's almost like the Arcane Pilot didn't have his own copy minions in the form of the mech familiars!

But since you insist so much added Zero Arcana and Zero Line picks to lessen the cost of magic resource splitting.


Single-pool and multiplying the duration removes the initial Slot loss and doesn't penalize you because you decided to split after casting Haste on the party or losing the benefits of Inspire Courage because the Bard started singing a round before you split. But you still functionally have to cast Greater Mage Armor twice if you want two mechs to benefit from the spell for the same duration, or cast it three times if you want three mechs to benefit from it and so on. In this regard it also works a little against long duration buffs (such as Persist) too. Instead of splitting and uber buffing a "primary" target capable of healing HP and just forgoing Energy/Ammo, or maybe a Divine Pilot uses Temp HP and wants to recover energy for damage/barriers, or w/e you can imagine to increase the "primary's survivability. Setting up the anti-death clone reduces the buffs of the main combatant which can cause them to drop even if he finds a way to avoid being killed. He'll have a reason to merge back together and remain together beyond simply replenishing certain statistics.
I have no interest in providing any reason to promote copies merging back together. And keeping one somewhere safe is indeed an intended strategy. They'll still be fighting at a penalty for the extra safety.

Finally just a limited duration just plain caps popping a clone out in the morning anyway. Per round almost seems too limiting, specially given the other nerfs applied, but minutes let's you play with the ability for scouting or such.
"I love the smell of -X to AC, skills, overall reduced ability effectiveness and less than half HP/spirit/energy by the morning" doesn't exactly sound like the breakfast of champions to me.

Also for the record, Ice Assassin has no cap besides how many spell slots you can throw at it along a Thought Bottle.
Quote from: FAQ
Can a thought bottle (CAr, 150) be used to restore XP lost from casting a spell or creating a magic item?
No. The item description indicates that its intended function is to restore lost levels. It doesn’t erase XP costs from other sources.
Oh, that's pretty nice to know, thanks!  :)

Quote
Larger mechs should have the Tek's Storage and smaller mechs should have Great's Agility.
I'd say that speed is something more common to bigger creatures than smaller ones. Large core creatures often have a speed of 40 ft while smaller ones have a speed of 20 ft, for example.
I'd say Great Targeting for smaller creatures would make more sense, since big stuff get a size penalty to hit and smaller stuff get a bonus instead. Easier to be precise when you're smaller. Keeping it a Great One ability is better for my comp, though. It does feel like more arsenal/hardpoints for bigger stuff may make sense but usually equipment size is proportional.
Thing is smaller mechas already are already more precise by default.

Super Servos: Should it not be +1 per pick? The bonus to Disarm would stack with Target's increase to attack rolls, by the way.
Eeeeerrr, would anyone ever pick it if it was a measly +1 per point? Yes, Disarm stacks with targeting, but since Arsenal weapons are so easy to take in multiples nowadays I feel it's not that much of a problem.

Great One: Something I've noticed. They all get about an equivalent amount of effective super upgrade picks at medium size, but the equivalent number of bonus super upgrade picks per size increase isn't the same from one size increase to the next. Which means that some Great One picks are much more cost efficient than others.
For example, Great Agility is twice as efficient as Great Plating and Great Targeting is about twice as efficient as Great Agility and four times as efficient as Great Plating. They should all be equalized if we go with the premise that the upgrade point options are all of equal worth.
Great Plating- 4x plating +dodge bonus halved. /+~half plating /+~1x plating /+~2x plating /+~x3.5 plating
Great Agility- 4x agility  +natural armor halved. /+agility /+2x plating /+4x agility /+~7x agility
Great Targeting- 4x targeter + DR is halved. /+2x target /+5x targeter /+9x targeter /+14x targeter (wut!?)

Assuming these extras per size are not cumulative. It isn't clear.
They're  not cumulative indeed.
Agility and Targeting stacking faster is an illusion because with great size comes great penalties to AC and hit.
Although on review they were a bit wonky so reworked a bit. The basic idea is that indeed you get more precise/dodgier as you grow instead of barely keeping up with the size penalties.

Tek Reactor: 4x battery + but max Spirit is halved. + half battery /+1x battery /+2x battery /+3.5x battery. ; It follows the pattern for Great Plating. All good.

Tek Soul: 4x SotM /+1x SotM /+2x SotM /+ 3x SotM /+4x SotM. ; Upgrade point growth is superior to Great Plating/Tek Reactor. Also, careful with putting the HP halving at the very end after the growth for Fine, especially when only separated by a comma. It looks like it applies only to fine sized mechas, which is clearly not intended.
Moved the HP halving clause.

And again you need to take in account sinergies. Increasing max HP/energy is a lot more valuable since several effects here recover percentages of those not to mention the spirits that outright fully recover HP/energy, whereas most spirit recovering effects are static and thus having a bigger max does not help you recover faster.

Tek Storage : Before all else, I'll point that I do not think that having an upgrade of this kind for hyperdimensional storage is a good idea. Mostly considering that the value per point does not compare with the others since it can only be picked once per 4 pilot levels to begin with, which means that no matter what you get there the value is immense.
Consider, the default value is 2 hardpoints and 25 arsenal space. That's worth 3 hyperdimensional storage picks which requires 12 levels in super pilot by default.
The value per pick is exponential as well. 3 picks is worth 1+2+3 = 6 upgrade points. You spend only 4 upgrade points for this bundle.
Then you get an extra pick and almost a half the next size category, which is worth at least an extra 4 points for a total of 10 before further size categories. And that is all assuming that hyperdimentional storage upgrade points aren't taken on the side as well, which you can be is the case considering the worth per point pick of Tek Storage doesn't affect them, effectively increasing the point worth of Tek Storage to 9 at medium pre-super pilot level 8, a worth of 14 points pre-level 8 at small size, a worth of 12 points at medium size for levels 8-11, and effectively 18 points at small size for pilot level 8-11. A level 20 super pilot could normally not get more than 4 hyperdimensional storage picks for 10 points. This is nuts.
Well there's the part where energy is halved but I'll agree the initial version may've been too strong. Heavily nerfed it.

Tek Servos: 4x pick for half arsenal (which is a strange thing to halve considering that arsenal space isn't something they get much of by default anyway, essentially driving the pilot to just get Nanomachines/Mysterious Power instead). /+~2.5x pick /+~3x pick /+~3.5x. Strange progression rate. Better than Great Plating/Tek Reactor at some size tiers.
Actually was too small. Again, doesn't really matter the relation to super servos in a vacuum, it matters that it actually gets better as you decrease size, meaning overcoming the size penalties.

Zero Arts +1 pilot level and DC, which increases every 4 super pilot level. This is already pretty darn good by itself compared to the other Great/Tek upgrades considering the worth and rarity of the stat it increases. I think it is well worth the 4 upgrade points as is. Further, I'll note that, just like normal size increases/decreases, the Great and Tek upgrades have advantages and disadvantages, usually in the form of halving another stat. The Zero abilities have no penalty whatsoever, which effectively makes them twice as good.
 Plus you don't have to pay extra upgrade points to access the improvements even though the increases are more linear than exponential. Not good from a balance point of view. This means that, for all the Zero abilities, unless they are weaker than their Great/Tek counterparts, they are overpowered by default.
Those extras would also be worth a feat each. Another impression is that as is they make Super Robots superior to Real robots. They scale much better.
Zero Weapon demands you to use only one weapon, Zero State inflicts penalties whenever you use it.

Added penalties to Zero Arts (non-maneuver stuff gets worst) and Zero Entropy (gets elemental vulnerabilities).


Zero Entropy Let's see, each pick of Alien Alloy grants 10 resistance and reinforced +1. So resistance 5 being half of what is granted before the extra ability this would be sort of a quarter Alien Alloy pick. 1d6 deals an average of 3.5 extra damage when Great Power grants 4 damage, which can improves with weapon upgrade synergy, but has an halved stat penalty. Then add an auto damage aura. I'd say this ability too is as good if not better than a Great/Tek equivalent before the extra abilities.
Which would be overpowered even if they were a feat each, by the way.

The perpetual fog is very good though at least there is an arsenal counter provided within the same setting's material.

Zero Range is very, very good considering the low range of most of the arsenal and built-in weapons provided to the mechas by the setting itself.

Zero Speed is crazy. You the radius of the ability gets pretty big. At level 12 this is a 120-mu aura that sets the speed of everything else down to a quarter. So something out of your aura needs to travel at least 480 mu to reach you. Assuming there isn't fog on top that which you cannot see through since that would further halve your movement. A charge could be made with a speed of 240-ft, but that isn't within the range of most mechas at that level. The gains vs cost of the ability are just way too good. The aura just gets way too large for an overpowered extra that isn't even needed for the ability to be on par with the similar options to begin with.
Personally, I'd say that this ability should not be a super upgrade. It should be something else entirely, such as a prestige class ability, maneuvers or similar. I'd say the same for most of these Zero Extras. They don't feel like they belong with the rest of the kit.
Something that you seem to be overlooking on Zero Entropy is that the effects also screw up any nearby allies.
Anyway nerfed it somewhat so that those with resistance/immunity to the element get to overcome the penalties.

Prc to focus on the Zero abilities sounds like something worth doing in the future.

Zero State: The nerf makes it a lot harder to abuse but the potential is still there. The worst is taken care of by preventing copies from making more copies the same turn, still. I'll note, though, that even a single copy is amazing if only for the action economy value. For the same reason that Ancient Temple boost that creates a copy is so darn strong. It can multiple an entire combo.
Well yes but as seen in the campaign with Katherine it also burns resources pretty fast.

That said, here is what I think of the mechanics of the ability itself;
When the cloning is done, the two copies generated appear adjacent... but adjacent to what? To the original pre-split robot or adjacent to each-other? The former allows them to appear with distance between them.
Soro figured it out as well Indeed, the pilot should not be copied. It