Author Topic: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder  (Read 204248 times)

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #140 on: February 13, 2018, 05:17:37 AM »
Here is a newly released PFS class by Old Spice..... no, you read that correctly..... Old..... Spice....
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Offline Blue Rose

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #141 on: February 14, 2018, 01:16:20 AM »
But more importantly, what tier is it?

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #142 on: February 14, 2018, 04:42:53 AM »
Blue tier 1 all the way, makes a Wizard seem like a quadriplegic VoP Monk
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Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #143 on: February 14, 2018, 10:40:40 AM »
I added Shifter as a red T4 for now. Reason being that the Shifter gets pounce at level 4 and later collects iteratives on top of his large number of natural attacks. If you don't make use of that, you are either outright bad at the game or playing Ape Shifter for large size and reach builds. The Shifter's AC, size, and minor aspect bonuses also help slightly, as does the Planar Wild Shape feat, although the spell resistance will hurt when it comes to party buffs, unless your casters have bonuses to caster level checks and/or overcoming spell resistance.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 01:25:59 PM by Power »

Offline Blue Rose

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #144 on: April 14, 2018, 11:59:04 PM »
Anyone got thoughts on the Vampire Hunter?

Seems like a shitty Ranger, but it does get some toys.  Maybe red T4?  Do we have a title holder for worst technically-still-a-caster in the game?  Or is there some pearl in therre I'm missing that makes them decent?

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #145 on: July 04, 2018, 01:16:57 AM »
New possible worst archetype ever, from Distant Realms

Quote
Quintessentialist
(Spiritualist Archetype)
When the pressure to grow wars with a personal need
for simplicity, a mortal soul can split between extremes,
creating two half-beings that rely on one another to
survive. The quintessentialist learns to project her
best self—her exemplar—as an independent being,
but in doing so leaves only the weakest and basest
aspects behind in her body.
Unfocused Spellcasting: A quintessentialist’s sheared
mind has difficulty focusing on even the simplest spells.
All of her spells have a minimum casting time of 1
round, even if casting a spell would normally take less
time, such as a standard action.
Exemplar: Instead of bonding to the phantom of a
dead soul, a quintessentialist forges her best qualities
into a spiritual aspect called an exemplar, which
resides in her subconscious mind at
all times rather than on the Ethereal
Plane. An exemplar uses the
quintessentialist’s
ability scores when
fully manifested
rather than those of
a standard phantom,
but otherwise advances as a phantom. The exemplar can
cast any of the spiritualist’s spells while fully manifested,
sharing the same spells known and spell slots, and
does not suffer from the quintessentialist’s unfocused
spellcasting ability.
A quintessentialist can fully manifest her exemplar as
a full-round action rather than a 1-minute ritual, and she
can dismiss it back into her mind as a standard action.
When fully manifested, a quintessentialist can transfer
any equipment she is currently wearing or carrying to
her exemplar, allowing it to manifest with weapons,
armor, and other equipment, but doing so removes these
possessions from the quintessentialist. She can likewise
grant her exemplar any feats she knows, losing access to
those feats herself while the exemplar
remains fully manifested. Projecting
an exemplar is draining, however. A
quintessentialist cannot cast any spells
herself and she takes a –2 penalty to
all ability scores while her exemplar
is fully manifested. Every round the
exemplar remains fully manifested,
the quintessentialist takes 1d6
points of damage; this damage
cannot be reduced or prevented
in any way.
This alters phantom.
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Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #146 on: July 31, 2018, 05:58:43 PM »
Anyone got thoughts on the Vampire Hunter?

Seems like a shitty Ranger, but it does get some toys.  Maybe red T4?  Do we have a title holder for worst technically-still-a-caster in the game?  Or is there some pearl in therre I'm missing that makes them decent?
Its spell selection is basically Paladin minus, except it gets bonus feats much like a Fighter and Vampiric Focus gives it a few more perks (evasion, deflection bonus to AC, charm person, brief bonus to perception and stealth). It's a straight T4. I'd favor a Paladin on the whole, but the Vampire Hunter is a potent martial. If not for the lack of an animal companion, I'd say it's still better than a Ranger. I reckon it's actually the Ranger that has the worst spell selection of all classes (with the exception of the Prophet of Kalistrade prestige class). Amusingly Rangers make better vampire hunters than the Vampire Hunter though. Favored Enemy (Undead) ftw.

Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #147 on: April 07, 2019, 12:54:36 PM »
Wondering if Hunter should go down to blue T4 honestly. It's basically a 3/4 BAB martial with 6th level spellcasting but no discounted spells and a rather limited spell selection. Divine Hunter + Primal Companion Hunter is definitely a T3 though. Warpriest is also a bit questionable. It's mostly the high-level summons from blessings that give it versatility. Otherwise it's essentially a martial.

Moving Bard and Skald up to T1 if they use this masterpiece:
Quote
MUSIC BEYOND THE SPHERES (DANCE, SING, STRING)
Source Horror Realms pg. 8
You use your own life force to create a phantasmagorical impression of eldritch vibrations with your wild, flailing dance and erratic tones. The performance unravels and remakes the fabric of reality around you according to your designs.

Prerequisites: Perform (dance, sing, or string) 13 ranks.

Cost: Feat or 5th-level bard spell known.

Benefit: When you enact this unnerving bardic performance, you take 2 points of Constitution drain or 2 points of Wisdom drain (your choice) to create an effect similar to limited wish, except that the effect is interpreted by an alien entity of the Dark Tapestry. If you have at least 17 ranks in Perform (dance, sing, or string), and you destroy a magic or technological item worth at least 25,000 gp as a material component and take 4 points of Constitution drain or Wisdom drain, you can instead produce the effects of a wish with this performance. The GM interprets how precisely the effects of this bardic performance are granted by the entity that you contact. This performance has audible and visual components.

Use: 1 round of bardic performance.

Action: 1 full round action.

At level 13 a Bard has over 30 rounds of bardic performance, making this super spammable. Wisdom drain is a mildly hindering factor except given that you can just Limited Wish for a Restoration (which is a material component costing under 1000gp, making it free for Limited Wish) and reset your ability drain, I don't think it matters. The Bard can just make ludicrously large amounts of free limited wishes and can even just make full-blown wishes for 25k gp at level 17.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 04:38:33 PM by Power »

Offline Nanashi

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #148 on: April 07, 2019, 02:45:18 PM »
Quote
remakes the fabric of reality around you according to your designs.
Quote
the effect is interpreted by an alien entity of the Dark Tapestry.

Editing? What's that?

Vigilante absolutely deserves tier 4 if Slayer is tier 4 and Fighter is better than average tier 5. Fighter, even an archetype that gets skill points, can't select social things as feats and good Vigilante Talents are better than feats. Even if you just choose Combat Skill every time you're still ahead of a fighter, bar Weapon Training, and you still get all the social talents.

Aether Kineticist is probably tier 3. TK is very versatile in and out of combat. They struggle in social situations, but even a good number of firmly tier 3 do that.

Sacred Servant Paladin probably makes the leap to tier 3 or tier 2 if their deity's Planar Ally is good. Especially so with Oath of Vengeance since the two cancel out eachothers weaknesses. Antipaladin is tier 2, or a very high tier 3, as soon as it gains access to a permanent duration succubus companion. Even a Babau would make them tier 3.

Simulacrum discoveries make an Alchemist as tier 1 as Music Beyond the Spheres makes a Bard tier 1 since Simulacrum can build wish factories. Better actually, since there is no Great Old Ones warping your wishes.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 03:01:41 PM by Nanashi »

Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #149 on: April 07, 2019, 10:08:03 PM »
They wouldn't be paizo if they had decent editing.

As for the Slayer, it was a questionable T4 to begin with. It's mostly Ranger Combat Style + Combat Trick + Feat + Studied Target + sneak attack that did that. The Slayer can do some decent sneak attack damage while still being a potent martial without it. Later on the Barroom Brawler feat (or just a Brawler dip) will even let the Slayer give himself Seething Hatred to his pick of favored enemies and double his Studied Target bonus. There's also his ability to Assassinate enemies. If you add Studied Target and Seething Hatred, he gets an extra +6 to DC at level 10 (making it DC21+intmod). Vig on the other hand has to choose between sneak attack and full BAB+combat feats and has worse attack and damage bonuses than the Fighter unless he uses Take 'Em Alive (does not work against a host of enemies with nonlethal immunity or nonlethal DR) or Major Magic (costing 2 combat talents) for Divine Favor (add Fate's Favored trait for another +1), and the fighter can get advanced weapon training too. If Vig gets Take 'Em Alive (meaning non-PFS) then the Fighter can get Weapon Spirit and Armor Specialization advanced trainings. What the Vig does get on the default Fighter is Mad Rush (the ability to pounce while taking an extra -4 to AC), evasion, a few more efficient feats, and a bunch of social skills, but any decent fighter tends to go full archery and if a fighter wants pounce the Dawnflower Dervish and Viking archetypes can provide it. The short of it is: I think the Vig is a worse martial than the Fighter. What remains are the Vig's social talents. He gets great bonuses to disguise and other than that he's mostly got +4 to a few social skills (you can slightly cheese this with a Wisdom in the Flesh trait to make a physical skill into a wis-based skill), +4 to knowledge skills, the ability to take 10, and 6 skills/lvl. I'm not sure if those skill monkey perks elevate it to a T4.

How does a simulacrum build wish factories?

Hunter moved down to T4. Slayer marked red. Sacred Servant + Oath of Vengeance listed as T3 now. I don't think Antipaladin gets access to Sacred Servant, as it's technically considered a separate class.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 05:51:46 PM by Power »

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #150 on: April 08, 2019, 01:46:33 AM »
Thoughtful Wishmaker
Quote
Thoughtful Wish-Maker (Regional: Plane of Air) {Blood of the Elements 23}: You are well acquainted with the many ways words can be twisted. You gain a +2 trait bonus on Sense Motive checks. Furthermore, if you succeed at a DC 25 Sense Motive check prior to making any wish granted by an outsider, you become aware of your wish’s potential pitfalls. If you succeed at this check by 5 or more, you figure out how to word your wish in such a way that your words are not twisted.

Make sure you don't drop too low of a Wisdom to affect making the DC by 5+, or use versatile Performance instead.

Even if it was available, the antipaladin doesn't have the necessary abilities to swap (smite evil, divine bond, and aura of resolve)
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 01:54:56 AM by zook1shoe »
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Offline Nanashi

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #151 on: April 08, 2019, 02:33:06 PM »
That trait doesn't actually work for this. An "alien entity of the Dark Tapestry" is an aberration (or rarely a magical beast), not an outsider, and that trait only works with a "wish granted by an outsider".

I meant that base Antipaladin is a tier 2 in general once it gets to a high enough level (11) for a succubus companion, not that Sacred Servant Antipaladin is tier 2. Getting a succubus companion is one of their base abilities (Fiendish Boon).

Quote
How does a simulacrum build wish factories?
Seriously? Making a simulacrum of a creature capable of granting wishes is one of the oldest 3E tricks in the book.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 02:42:29 PM by Nanashi »

Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #152 on: April 09, 2019, 09:21:02 AM »
Huh. So Alchemists can make simulacra of other creatures. I'm used to their powers being self-focused. At any rate I tend not to consider that T1 for the same reason I didn't put Bards up in T1 before for being able to abuse free Glabrezu wishes with Legato Piece of the Infernal Bargain and why JaronK didn't just put every class with Planar Binding and Simulacrum abilities in T1 on his list. That's more of a very deliberate T1 optimized play whereas the tier list operates off of an assumption of a general level of competence without game-breaking intent.

How exactly does the Succubus companion raise the Antipaladin all the way to T2?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 06:25:59 PM by Power »

Offline Nanashi

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #153 on: April 09, 2019, 03:04:06 PM »
Succubus statblock. You get everything except the following (due to the ability being based on Summon Monster): Ethereal Jaunt, Greater Teleport, Summon. That means at will Charm Person and Suggestion as Spell-Like Abilities which "has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally." (Meaning undetectable). On top of this is risk free Profane Gift. Profane Gift gives everyone in the party +2 to to their highest stat and telepathy.

If being able to spam Summon Monster as a Binder breaks the game enough to make it tier 2 with that one vestige, so does being able to spam undetectable Charm Person and Suggestion.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 03:05:46 PM by Nanashi »

Offline KellKheraptis

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #154 on: April 10, 2019, 05:20:38 PM »
I have recently been digging around on the Vigilante lately, and while most of the overall class and archtypes feel somewhere mid-Tier 4, a couple are notable powerups.  A Warlock in particular is a mid-Tier 3 at least, and if the full available fixes for Arcane Bolts (I believe that's what they call their "Dr Strange" zap cantrip?) are in play, a definite gish in a can a la magus, but playing differently.  Not to mention at least up to 8th level spells if the right talents and feats are snagged.

I haven't looked deep enough yet to see if level 9 spells can be cheesed out of it, but THAT ALONE would move the Warlock archetype well out of Tier 4.

EDIT: Kell failed a Perception check and didn't see the update from who knows when on the Vig getting tier 3 w/ spellcasting archetype...and now we see why I play Wis dump stat characters :-P
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 05:31:03 PM by KellKheraptis »

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #155 on: April 16, 2019, 02:17:22 PM »
i feel that there's lots power variation of spellcasting archetypes for the vigilante, like the cabalist vs. the psychometrist  or warlock vs. avenging beast
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Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #156 on: April 18, 2019, 12:02:37 AM »
I have recently been digging around on the Vigilante lately, and while most of the overall class and archtypes feel somewhere mid-Tier 4, a couple are notable powerups.  A Warlock in particular is a mid-Tier 3 at least, and if the full available fixes for Arcane Bolts (I believe that's what they call their "Dr Strange" zap cantrip?) are in play, a definite gish in a can a la magus, but playing differently.  Not to mention at least up to 8th level spells if the right talents and feats are snagged.

I haven't looked deep enough yet to see if level 9 spells can be cheesed out of it, but THAT ALONE would move the Warlock archetype well out of Tier 4.

EDIT: Kell failed a Perception check and didn't see the update from who knows when on the Vig getting tier 3 w/ spellcasting archetype...and now we see why I play Wis dump stat characters :-P

What talents are letting them cast those higher levels? I thought they had 6th level casting  :???
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Offline Nanashi

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #157 on: April 18, 2019, 01:11:40 AM »
All I can think of is Expanded Studies feat, which makes spells of higher level count as on list for (not using) UMD purposes. It's restricted to Warpriest and Hunter and needs wisdom, but I'm sure any sane (meaning non-PFS) GM will allow it to be used for the casting Vigilante archetypes and Eldritch Scoundrel with the appropriate main attribute. That's still only up to 7 and not that great though.

Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #158 on: April 19, 2019, 02:24:51 PM »
Succubus statblock. You get everything except the following (due to the ability being based on Summon Monster): Ethereal Jaunt, Greater Teleport, Summon. That means at will Charm Person and Suggestion as Spell-Like Abilities which "has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally." (Meaning undetectable).
You forgot Vampiric Touch and Alter Self too. Alter Self into a small form can give her +4 to stealth, +1 attack, and +1 AC and she can get extra natural attacks too. But overall the Succubus has poor damage and attack and thus little in the way of offensive potential other than spamming Vampiric Touch or charming enemies, which is not good enough. It seems the best way to leverage a Succubus in combat would be to give her a Headband of Vast Intelligence (+2) to give her 8 ranks of UMD, maybe add a Circlet of Persuasion, and have her start abusing UMD with wands and scrolls.

You might be better off with a Shadow Demon abusing his magic jar. Anything you beat unconscious (nonlethal) is considered a willing target, but you'll need to heal it back up afterwards. Given the advanced template his spells get +2 to DC for free, add a Shadow Stencil Set (30gp) and shadow spells get another +1 to DC, which puts him at DC21 Magic Jar, DC21 Shadow Conjuration, and DC22 Shadow Evocation. He also has at-will Telekinesis to do high amounts of damage.

It's worth noting that the Antipaladin's aura of despair gives enemies -2 to saves. With a Cornugon Smash he can easily get them Shaken as well.

Quote
If being able to spam Summon Monster as a Binder breaks the game enough to make it tier 2 with that one vestige, so does being able to spam undetectable Charm Person and Suggestion.
The Binder reaches T2 because being able to spam Summon Monster gives you access to every summonable monster and their abilities. It's far beyond spamming a single monster's abilities in terms of plowing through encounters. That said, I suppose endless undetectable Charm Person and Suggestion spam can break campaigns just fine. It's somewhat comparable to a diplomancer build (although a proper diplomancer is still much better for these shenanigans). With this logic we may as well ask whether a Bard should also be marked as T2 then. He only needs 1 Spellsong feat and no one will notice him spamming his spells or abusing Fascinate to throw Suggestion performances on everybody. If you do have a Succubus around out-of-combat though, it will be an obvious trick to just spam Charm Person and Suggestion. Well, that kind of stunt is probably veering into T2 as well, although regular diplomacy abuse is better if you're going down that road.

What the heck, for now marking Fiendish Bond Antipaladin as T3 since it's certainly stronger than a T4 but I'm not sure if it's quite T2; still he's probably T4 until level 11. Regular Antipaladin is a blue T4, because while Smite Good is much more circumstantial than Smite Evil (since a good campaign can reliably face predominantly evil enemies but an evil campaign is nowhere near as likely to spend its time fighting good enemies), a Conductive weapon lets him mix Touch of Corruption into his melee attacks making him a potent martial especially given his debuffing auras. The downside is you can't use a conductive weapon with a ranged attack, so unless the Paladin worships Baphomet in the Golarion setting for Monstrous Physique spells or uses a whip + lunge he will have an unpleasant time melee full attacking people from a distance. The easiest way seems to be playing a Human with Military Tradition for Whip and Scorpion Whip proficiencies then wield a Scorpion Whip as his weapon. If you don't use a Conductive property with a reach weapon and Lunge (or some means of pounce), he falls off a bit to a regular T4. Conductive does not work with a ranged weapon here because Touch of Corruption is a melee touch.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 05:54:05 PM by Power »

Offline Nanashi

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #159 on: April 19, 2019, 04:56:59 PM »
Bard has a finite number of attempts but a Succubus can spam till someone rolls a 1. I'll settle for a good tier 3 though.

How is Magic Jar as an SLA supposed to work anyways? Not that it matters for Shadow Demon since there's a bit of pseudo-errata in Occult Adventures that says to replace all magic jar SLAs with (Greater) Possession SLAs.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 05:01:38 PM by Nanashi »