Author Topic: Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...  (Read 2337 times)

Offline phaedrusxy

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Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...
« on: September 22, 2013, 08:54:14 PM »
Noticed this gem in another thread. It might be fun to play this in a game where you expect to encounter a decent number of outsiders (which is most high level games).
The incarnate paladin variant (Dragon 310, p47) can rebuke outsiders instead of turn undead.
This is begging to be abused to high heaven and back!  :P Outsiders often have stupendous abilities (and high CR) compared to their hit dice (completely the opposite of undead), and you could control just about any of them via this and enough optimization pizzazz.
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Offline Amechra

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Re: Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2013, 09:19:46 PM »
I haven't read that particular article, but don't most abilities that let you turn/rebuke outsiders not let you Destroy or Command them?

Though, wouldn't it be easier to just be a Fire Domain Cleric who can cast Mantle of the Fiery Spirit on people? You can then Rebuke anyone.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2013, 09:28:04 PM »
I haven't read it either... So I don't know... :P

And yeah, but that is almost certainly going to be banned. You might actually sneak this one in under the DM radar. ;)
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Offline altpersona

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Re: Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2013, 09:35:10 PM »
just from the other thread today and a quick reread of the srd bit on turning.

i count 13 level enhancements from items.

the highest hd outsider on d20srd is the solar at 22hd.

if, best case, you get the 22+ turn check. ChL +4 and you have some way of screwing wbl to get all the toys that enable the +13 ChL bump, sounds like lvl 5 (+13 +4) nets you that solar. or fewer ChL bums and get the planetar at lvl1.

sounds like a plot device.

we dont have a list of creatures that have wish/miracle as an ability do we?
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2013, 09:52:03 PM »
You need 2x their hit dice in effective cleric level to command them, though.
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Offline altpersona

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Re: Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2013, 10:01:35 PM »
yes, i did overlook that. right after i read it, i disregarded it.

will have to settle for lvl1 making the planetar cry.

at level 20 you can boss it around, but you could do that already...

edit: rereading the srd outsiders, the succubus is 6hd (1 plus virtual 13).  :love
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 10:06:18 PM by altpersona »
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Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2013, 10:15:16 PM »
Glabrezu have 12 HD and Wish once per month.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2013, 11:00:18 PM »
Yup its awesome, but very hard to boost. *Shrugs.*

I haven't read that particular article, but don't most abilities that let you turn/rebuke outsiders not let you Destroy or Command them?

Though, wouldn't it be easier to just be a Fire Domain Cleric who can cast Mantle of the Fiery Spirit on people? You can then Rebuke anyone.
For a huge amount of XP!

Offline Keldar

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Re: Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2013, 12:50:53 AM »
Incarnates (page 53) can command outsiders.  Though they're born with a heart filled with neutrality.

Offline Mithril Leaf

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Re: Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2013, 10:15:32 PM »
Or you can just make a Scouring Stanchion with max HD and the Sacred Guardian Template + Planar Turning. It costs something in the low 200 thousands. Much less if you make it yourself of course.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2013, 12:59:29 AM »
Is there anything that rebuking/commanding outsiders can do that sufficient quantities of planar binding can't? (Other than be done by Paladins, that is.)

Offline Keldar

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Re: Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2013, 01:55:05 AM »
It goes online at level 4, so there's that.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2013, 08:28:51 AM »
Is there anything that rebuking/commanding outsiders can do that sufficient quantities of planar binding can't? (Other than be done by Paladins, that is.)
It doesn't cost money/XP, and you don't need to bargain. You can just order them to do whatever you want, no matter how morally repugnant they find it. :D
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2013, 10:06:08 AM »
Is there anything that rebuking/commanding outsiders can do that sufficient quantities of planar binding can't? (Other than be done by Paladins, that is.)
It doesn't cost money/XP, and you don't need to bargain. You can just order them to do whatever you want, no matter how morally repugnant they find it. :D
To add to what Keldar and PhaedrusXY said, it probably takes less resources to do it really well.  The resources for turning that are scattered throughout D&D seem vast and reasonably stackable. 

I was also going to add "planar binding is usually banned at most sane tables."  But, I suspect Rebuke Outsider would fall into the same category.  Especially since an analogous ability is an epic feat.  So, you'd just be hoping for the DM to miss it, which is bad form. 

It is a funny way to make an ordinarily crappy class pretty badass, though, so it's a nice conversation piece.

Offline linklord231

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Re: Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2013, 12:58:15 PM »
But, I suspect Rebuke Outsider would fall into the same category.  Especially since an analogous ability is an epic feat.  So, you'd just be hoping for the DM to miss it, which is bad form. 

Dire Charge is also an Epic feat, and it's strictly worse than Lion Totem Barb which is available at level 1. 

Blinding Speed, Combat Archery, Energy Resistance, Epic Speed, Fast Healing, Incite Rage, Legendary Leaper, Perfect Health, Polyglot, Ruinous Rage, and Spontaneous Domain Access all are Epic feats that give you things you could have had at much lower levels. 
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2013, 02:45:00 PM »
^ and you expect this observation would persuade a DM to permit someone to use Rebuke Outsider?

My overall point was that it's an awfully broken/breakable ability.  And, it's not like you could point to easily attainable analogous abilities.  The former is independently sufficient for many thoughtful and permissive tables to ban something. 
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 02:57:35 PM by Unbeliever »

Offline jameswilliamogle

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Re: Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2013, 10:14:39 PM »
One of these days I'm going to play a simple Fire / Earth domain Cleric who uses planar ally to get templated [fire]/[earth] creatures that are worth commanding...  In the meantime in low levels, they'd be able to rebuke only about 40% of the monsters in the MMI.  Dragons all have elemental subtypes.

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Rebuking Outsiders: Let's break this...
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2013, 10:29:36 PM »
Typically don't have to worry about Turn Resistance ;)
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