Author Topic: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder  (Read 175795 times)

Offline Kaelik

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #100 on: February 05, 2016, 04:29:14 PM »
Under what circumstances would you consider this tier list acceptable?

Actually, if I understand you right under your invectives, you think the tier list is not only useless, but so wrong as to be dangerous to uninformed players who read it. Is that correct?

Someone would have to:
a) Describe what the Tier list is supposed to be measuring in sufficient detail to not be completely vague nonsense.
b) Show how measuring that is useful in some way.
c) Demonstrate that the Tier list accurately measures the things it purports to measure.

Now, since no one has done that or even tried to do that in the last eight years, I certainly don't expect it to happen now, but that is what would be required.

Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #101 on: February 05, 2016, 06:49:49 PM »
Except that True Seeing and See Invis are counters to blinking, and those are substantially more prevalent and easier to get than Blindsight "and the like" by which I mean, just blindsight, because there are no other extra sensory modes that prevent enemies from being flat-footed at all.
Blind-Fighting feats. Which is also doable by any enemy with the martial flexibility class feature. There's feats, features, and items that let people see through smoke or clouds as well. You also missed the part where this build requires the rest of the party to also invest in obtaining sight.

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See now this, is an actual explanation. I mean, it's weird, because the only combat utility provided by UMD is wands of Grave/Golem/Plantstrike which the Rogue gets natively, because everything else UMD does is decidedly out of combat or absurd TO nonsense, but this at least counts as an explanation.
Wow, you are bad at this. Wand of Obscuring Mist, Scrolls of Expeditious Retreat, Wand of Blistering Invective (if intimidate heavy), Scroll of Walls, Scroll of Summon Monster, Scroll of Stone Shape, etc. etc.

I don't understand that one at all.  Bolt Ace is just Gunslinger but uses crossbows instead of guns.  From a quick read, it seems weaker than normal Gunslinger, since it has to spend Grit to do touch attacks.  Is this assuming some sort of spell-storing bolt antics?  Or is one of their deeds deceptively good?
It's because Bolt Ace doesn't need to invest as heavily as a regular Gunslinger into making their weapon of choice functional. The regular Gunslinger is complete shit at starting levels. But come to think of it, Bolt Ace is probably still a Tier 5.

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Also, Gunslinger being below T4 to begin with is dumb.  By mid-level, Gunslinger reliably kills most things that aren't specifically made to counter them.  Far away?  Deeds for that.  Miss chance?  Deeds for that.  DR?  Feat for that.  High touch AC?  Good fucking luck, you're going against someone with full BAB + Dex primary + enhancement bonus; Monk, for example, is not nearly enough.

Even some of the specifically anti-gun spells/items are woefully insufficient - 3-4 more points of AC won't help when the Gunslinger would hit you on a -5.  And Bullet Magnets won't last a single round, even if you make them out of Adamantine.

So is the rating based on "with no items" or "not at all optimized" or something?  That doesn't seem very useful.
My problem with the Gunslinger is that he sucks a ton until he gets going and then all of a sudden he murders everything. And for the most part, his class features as a Gunslinger aren't really contributing to his power. That just comes from the gear, really. A Trench Fighter would outperform that easily.

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Edit: On further inspection, what is up with this whole list?  How is the Slayer's ability to "do a bunch of damage" and "be good at skills" a tier higher than the Rogue's ability to "do a bigger bunch of damage" and "be good at slightly more skills"?
Eh, I wasn't too sure about the Slayer, but iirc it was the d10 hitdie, the added strong fort save, the full BAB, the ability to get attack and damage bonuses to targets, and his talent pool (which gives him Ranger Combat Style - ignores prereqs - in addition to bonus feats from Combat trick talent and Feat advanced talent). It's trivially easy for a Slayer to make a two-weapon throwing build that uses a Belt of Mighty Hurling, for instance. Simply put, the Slayer does not need Sneak Attack to ruin an enemy but he can and he will probably land more hits while he does it too.

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Same deal with the Ninja.
Ninja gets an extra attack and can give himself invis and greater invis as a swift action. Anyway, they're on Tier 5 now.

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Also, not convinced Investigator is T3; yes, it has extracts, but I've never seen a build that was very impressive for it.
It's probably a weaker alchemist, really, but it still has the Alchemist's action economy abuse and mutagens while adding half his level to attack and damage.

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And Unchained Monk is not T6, come on; it may be a Monk but it can deal damage moderately well, enough to hang out with Fighter and Vanilla Brawler at least.
Any decent Fighter picks up a Bow or goes TWF thrower and is actually quite effective while doing so. Archetyped Fighters get sillier. The Brawler easily performs a Flurry with Shuriken and if he does go for unarmed strikes, he can add the Brawling light armor property while collecting more attacks than an Unchained Monk. He also has Martial Flexibility to screw around his feats and keep him relevant more often. The Unchained Monk cannot compete well with that. In fact, his special Flurry of Blows prohibits him from getting bonus attacks with TWF (unlike the 3.5 Monk whose FoB the Unchained Monk is clearly mimicking). A vanilla Monk would perform better with shuriken by getting both a full FoB and a bonus attack through his ki pool. To get his style strikes the Unchained Monk needs to use unarmed attacks too. And the unchained Monk's melee still gets to choose between doing damage (str) or having AC (dex and wis). Class is still stupidly MAD.

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And some of the Monk archetypes reach T4.
Sohei and Nimble Guardian, aye. Not so sure about ZAM. That one feels more like a high Tier 5, competing with the Fighter.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 08:05:43 PM by Power »

Offline Kaelik

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #102 on: February 05, 2016, 08:06:07 PM »
Quote
See now this, is an actual explanation. I mean, it's weird, because the only combat utility provided by UMD is wands of Grave/Golem/Plantstrike which the Rogue gets natively, because everything else UMD does is decidedly out of combat or absurd TO nonsense, but this at least counts as an explanation.
Wow, you are bad at this. Wand of Obscuring Mist, Scrolls of Expeditious Retreat, Wand of Blistering Invective (if intimidate heavy), Scroll of Walls, Scroll of Summon Monster, Scroll of Stone Shape, etc. etc.

Ah yes, the old "I will spends tons of GP to spend my standard action (or full round action) to act like a Wizard 5 levels lower than me" Look, at any level, literally any level, that you are using a scroll of Summon Monster, you should just set that GP on fire and spend your actual standard actions on actually combat useful actions. If what you were going to do was worth less than Summon Monster of all things, then goddam, I can only imagine how pathetic that character must be.

Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #103 on: February 05, 2016, 11:50:28 PM »
Ah yes, the old "I will spends tons of GP to spend my standard action (or full round action) to act like a Wizard 5 levels lower than me" Look, at any level, literally any level, that you are using a scroll of Summon Monster, you should just set that GP on fire and spend your actual standard actions on actually combat useful actions. If what you were going to do was worth less than Summon Monster of all things, then goddam, I can only imagine how pathetic that character must be.
Okay, so, you wanted to use an Eversmoking Bottle that costs 5.4k gp to smoke enemies (using a standard action) for your blind sneak attacks. However, when you spend 750gp to get the same basic effect by UMDing a Wand of Obscuring Mist (mind, you could get 7 fucking wands - 350 uses - before it reaches the price of your magic bottle), this is inexplicably "acting like a Wizard 5 levels lower than you" and you should set that GP on fire because man what a waste of gold and actions? Sounds legit.

Also, I have no clue why you assume a Rogue must be spending his money on spells below his level, but half the fun of UMDing scrolls is that you can outcast the Wizard with bullshit he's not getting his hands on anytime soon. You can afford a scroll of Summon Monster IX at level 4 for crying out loud. By the time you reach level 10, you can have your own personal collection of demiplanes made with the power of scrolls. Sure that's a little extreme, but it's very easy to get your hands on all kinds of crazy stuff, including spells beyond your current level, with UMD.

Just admit you have zero fucking imagination for scrolls/etc and move on.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 12:06:03 AM by Power »

Offline Kaelik

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #104 on: February 06, 2016, 12:04:58 AM »
Okay, so, you wanted to use an Eversmoking Bottle that costs 5.4k gp to smoke enemies (using a standard action) for your blind sneak attacks. However, when you spend 750gp to get the same basic effect by UMDing a Wand of Obscuring Mist (mind, you could get 7 fucking wands - 350 uses - before it reaches the price of your magic bottle), this is inexplicably "acting like a Wizard 5 levels lower than you" and you should set that GP on fire because man what a waste of gold and actions. Sounds legit.

Or you know, an eversmoking bottle requires a standard action once, and then you just carry it around and get the effect without spending actions, Just like you use a Ring of Blinking once. I mean yeah, if you are UMDing a Wand of Obscuring Mist you are lighting a round on fire, if you aren't capable of building a character that gets SA every round, that's probably better than not getting SA at all, but it's way less impressive than spending that round Sneak attacking.

Also, let's be serious for a second, this is Pathfinder, items don't cost their listed price, they cost half of that. (Or at least wondrous items and scrolls that your Wizard can already cast, maybe not wands or staves or rings).

Also, why the fuck do you imagine a Rogue must be spending his money on spells below his level? Half the fun of UMDing scrolls is that you can outcast the Wizard with bullshit he's not getting his hands on anytime soon. You can afford a scroll of Summon Monster IX at level 4 for fuck's sakes.

Because doing that is even dumber. Let's see, you can either have a cloak of resistance and a Eversmoking bottle, or you can have.... A single use scroll that might win one fight for you (if you make the DC 47 UMD check).

For fucks sake really? This is exactly what I'm talking about, people love to fap to lighting all their gold on fire for incredibly unimpressive effects.

Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #105 on: February 06, 2016, 12:55:05 AM »
You know, if you carry an Eversmoking Bottle around and leave it on permanently, as a GM I would be inclined to make you start rolling smoke inhalation fort saves unless you have a Necklace of Adaptation or the like.

Also, the UMD check is just DC 37 (and DC 24 if you don't have 19 int, but you can make UMD an int-based skill). At any rate that was not a serious recommendation. If you're going to cast 9th level spells at level 4, then just get Craft Wondrous Item and make Candles of Invocation and get a Gate for 4.2k, no UMD needed. The point is simply that there's no rule constraining you to casting scrolls of your level or below.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 01:21:15 AM by Power »

Offline Kaelik

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #106 on: February 06, 2016, 01:12:54 AM »
You know, if you carry an Eversmoking Bottle around and leave it on permanently, as a GM I would be inclined to make you start rolling smoke inhalation fort saves unless you have a Necklace of Adaptation or the like.

You don't leave it on forever, but yes, you do leave it on for 16-32 rounds at a time, and take occasionaly breathing brakes when you are in the middle of a dungeon.

The point is simply that there's no rule constraining you to casting scrolls of your level or below.

My point is that there is no rule preventing you from wasting your money on stupid shit, but wasting even more money on even stupider shit is even stupider than wasting less money on stupid shit. At least when you were pretending to be the Wizard's commoner buddy who follows him around, you were getting scrolls at half cost, when you are trying to wish really hard you had Wizard written on your character sheet and that you were higher level, you get to waste twice as much money to wish you were a Wizard.

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #107 on: February 07, 2016, 03:34:53 PM »
Chrono and Power, why do you keep arging with Kaelik? Nothing we have said in the last several pages have even come close to moving him from his opinion. And vice versa, with his out there answers. I doubt anything else we say or try to elaborate on will do the same.

I guess one thing did happen... a reflection on a couple T4s going to T5.

Power, i feel your opinions on classes via the tier system are pretty spot on. The blue/red helped even more, since it basically tripled the potential tiers w/o complicating things.
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Offline Kaelik

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #108 on: February 07, 2016, 05:07:39 PM »
Chrono and Power, why do you keep arging with Kaelik? Nothing we have said in the last several pages have even come close to moving him from his opinion.

Remember, the only reason anyone could ever disagree with you is because they are unreasonable, it could never be because you failed to say anything meaningful.'

But yes, I laid down exactly what it would take for anyone to ever justify the Tier system, time to run away and never talk about it again.

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #109 on: February 07, 2016, 05:24:50 PM »
We'll just have to agree to disagree on power's tier list is good or bad, hopeful or not.
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Offline Chrononaut

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #110 on: February 08, 2016, 08:26:47 AM »
IDK, maybe if we re fluffed it as 'list of classes who need to spend the least to most on scrolls and UMD them assuming the campaign is a magic mart' ?
(that's a joke)

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #111 on: June 25, 2016, 03:02:07 PM »
Any idea on if/when the Occult classes will be added?
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Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #112 on: July 09, 2016, 08:27:05 AM »
I'm busy finishing up the Shaman guide right now. I'll get to the Occult classes in a bit.

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #113 on: September 01, 2016, 12:25:22 AM »
Vigilante?
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Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #114 on: September 01, 2016, 12:41:00 PM »
I'll finish it off this weekend I think.

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #115 on: September 02, 2016, 06:06:52 PM »
here is a very up to date handbook
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Offline Blightersbane

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #116 on: September 07, 2016, 12:35:43 PM »
I found unchained monk, with qinggong ki-spells versatile and fun to play...something that probably hasnt been said of the monk before. The unchained monk is IMO, a tier 4.

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Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #117 on: May 20, 2017, 04:59:56 PM »
Way overdue but I made tiers for occult classes and vigilante.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 05:30:38 PM by Power »

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #118 on: May 22, 2017, 03:18:40 PM »
Derp, saw that the spellcasting ones got their own tier. And the rest are pretty comparable to their core counterparts.

Edited
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 03:22:38 PM by zook1shoe »
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Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #119 on: May 22, 2017, 09:10:46 PM »
The weirdest entry on my list had to be the Medium. It's a 4th level caster by default but it can also cast as either a 6th level Wizard or a Cleric depending on the day, but once it hits level 17 it can cast any Wizard spell or a Cleric miracle once per day. This is a fairly Tier 1 ability. Spellcasting as a Wizard though makes him an arcane caster which means he is vulnerable to arcane spell failure due to what was most likely an oversight. And before level 11 he can only cast 1 spell of every rank (but he gets to switch around which spells that would be).

The Psychic is a rather weak spellcaster overall, and in fact there's generally no good reason to play him over a cross-blooded psychic + draconic (esoteric) sorcerer with Paragon Surge, except the Psychic does get the mnemonic esoterica power which is hideously overpowered due to giving the Psychic access to a spell of his choice per day, from all the spell lists (including discounted lists). It doesn't even get the level penalty that the Pathfinder Savant and Daivrat prestige classes contribute. Other than that, the Psychic does gain access to Summon Monster for some inexplicable reason, but its 1 round cast time and emotion + thought components make it incredibly easy to disrupt. I'm not even sure if the Psychic can cast it defensively with that +10 DC to concentration checks. I suppose the Psychic should just equip a tower shield and plate armor and cheese AC to be safe, since there's no psychic spell failure chance.

Meanwhile the Shaman is an incredibly powerful spellcaster once you get Arcane Enlightenment working and use the favored class bonus to add Cleric spells to his list. Sure the Shaman's own list isn't very good, but between spirits, Arcane Enlightenment, and the Cleric list he suddenly becomes an incredibly potent spellcaster when played right.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 05:28:55 PM by Power »