Author Topic: Fun Finds: 5e Edition  (Read 85400 times)

Offline sambojin

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #280 on: January 01, 2017, 02:47:24 PM »
For a Trickster, Bless/Guidance/Sacred Flame from cleric isn't too bad. Bless up's accuracy for your stabs, Guidance keeps your skills ticking even while you're by yourself, and SF gives you a backup non-AC'y damage type (that's admittedly pretty poor). Could sub out SF for Resistance if you're expected to deal with lots of traps/poisons/whatever for the party, but Guidance sort of covers the not-failing part of that already, rather than dealing with the have-failed part of it (and Bless does resistances if you really need them as well).


Faerie Fire/Guidance/Create Bonfire from druid might be worth a look-in too. FF for advantage for stabbing (a dex-saved action cast though, but with some anti-invis/anti-hide for later on), Guidance for the D4s, and CB to let you do some creative pyromancy in conjunction with Mage Hand (or as a distraction). Mending could also be handy if you think you'll have to cover-up the evidence of your break-and-enters at some point too. Probably a better package than the cleric's, because of its solo potential and the fact that druids/bards are almost always concentrating/casting something else anyway (or in WS). High Wis requirement for reliability needed though (or they're essentially caltrops in spell form, so pretty bad).


They're not great, but the MI "packages" aren't too bad overall for an AT. Even though the spells are action-cast, they're good for you and the whole party, while also letting you really rogue well while off alone. I tend to look at MI as a package, rather than a "killer spell/utility", and they're not bad when thought of like that for AT.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 07:12:23 PM by sambojin »

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #281 on: January 01, 2017, 03:30:29 PM »
The reason I like the Hex and Shield packages is that no one can do those for you.  Regardless of party makeup, those are great to have.  There is some merit in freeing up the party's cleric/druid from concentrating on low level buffs, but I'd really love to have some useful stat-independent cantrips on the cleric and druid lists that do not use concentration to make the package really great for the Arcane Trickster.

For ranger, cleric and druid is a great choice, though I'll refer to what I previously said about sorcerer/wizard for them.

Here's to hoping for some gishy divine cantrips in the future.
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Offline sambojin

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #282 on: January 01, 2017, 04:03:33 PM »
Strangely enough, that's why I like the MI stuff I listed for AT. You're probably more likely to be off alone than anyone else (which removes all easy advantage/Sneak Attack options other than hiding), you're pretty likely to have your concentration free at any point, you absolutely need advantage or group coordination to stab stuff reliably, and everything else you do is entirely stat/roll dependant as well. A "missed turn/attack action" by you is less of a loss on average than most, because it's often situational and very RNG-swingy on rolls, so kind of unreliable anyway. Especially on the first turn of combat, because you'll often go first with your high initiative (not necessarily with surprise), so you might not be able to generate advantage/"flanking" for a stab anyway. So you may as well be the one casting a buff rather than using your single crappy attack. Yes, you could "ready action" your way down the initiative order to flank, but now you don't necessarily have to (and that can be fairly unreliable as well, due to unexpected outcomes or actions).

Even with a good party (so you can get down to what you do best without self-casting all the time), you're still quite handy to have around with those spells. Having another copy of Guidance in a party isn't a waste, it's just more total initiative to spread around. A blessbot/FFFag can add more to total party damage than a single stab would do sometimes (especially if people are nova'ing), but there's a bit of other utility to these spells as well. FF gets a little better with Magical Ambusher at 9th level (so does Sacred Flame and Bonfire, a tiny bit), but loses a bit at 13th (just bitch slap 'em for advantage, though FF is still multi-target whole-party advantage for you, but it's still not reliable enough), so there's varying levels of internal synergy from these spells with a Trickster. Hiding is often advantage anyway, but not for potentially a full minute. If you're great at hiding, Bless looks better than FF, because it always works. High Wis ain't easy to get if you want your AT-wizard Intelligence casting to work DC-wise, but it's still a better stat in general.

Shield is awesome, but it only does one thing, and you can already get it. Admittedly it does the most important thing, and more is better, so there is that to it :)


((this was mostly to show that my ideas weren't entirely for rogue-in-a-vacuum-by-himself kind of thing. You'd be surprised how rarely bless/FF gets cast at later levels, because clerics/druids/bards really do have better things to do with their concentration. But they're still very good spells to have cast, and you really don't have better stuff to think about in combat. You've just got to decide if 1 stab (if you even can stab first turn) is better than a buff or not for the party in that particular encounter. It makes you good solo, good in the party, and just generally handy to have around. Shield "only" keeps you alive.....))
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 07:23:55 PM by sambojin »

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #283 on: January 01, 2017, 07:34:00 PM »
The Shield and Hex comments weren't for the AT, just to clarify.  One or the other is great for the bard, EK, and ranger because normally one of those is inaccessible and they're stat-independent.

If something costs you a feat, there's an opportunity cost because of any other feat available.  An early feat choice needs to be something that's useful at all levels that won't diminish in usefulness as the character grows.  I don't see the appeal in Faerie Fire so much for an AT at all levels.  It's fine for low levels when the AT doesn't have so many spells to use, but when 3rd level spells are available, I'd rather have a reliable Hypnotic Pattern if I'm going to cast an area spell.  The stat spread needed to make a Faerie Fire package work is undesirable for long-term play IMO.  You won't have ASIs to split between Dex, Int, and Wis in most scenarios, and long-term you're giving up the reliability of higher level AT spells just to make Faerie Fire work.

Bless on the other hand is ability-score-independent, so that's a great pick without sacrificing any functionality at later levels.  Not trying to dilute your argument here, but I do want to point out as a DM of multiple games that have gone to or are currently in high levels, it's a mistake for a cleric to forget about using Bless at high levels.  Druids are bogged down by a list that has too many concentration spells, and bards do indeed have better things to concentrate on than Faerie Fire.  Clerics have good non-concentration spells and Bless is one of the best buffs on their class list.  They can get away with novas in some fights because their low level concentration stuff can carry them so far.

Lack of reliability on Sneak Attack is a problem for rogues that forget that ranged attacks work for Sneak Attack.  Hiding for the advantage granted by attacking unseen plus a ranged attack on the first turn is a pretty reliable way to Sneak Attack, and remaining at range makes Cunning Action to hide a lot more viable for repeated use in combat.  Shortbows and light crossbows don't get much talk, but an 80 ft. range Sneak Attack is enough to make one a worthwhile choice for a backup weapon on a melee-focused AT as opposed to trying to make Sacred Flame work.  I'm not accusing you of doing so, but it seems the online community as a whole forgot ATs can Sneak Attack from range just because Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade offer them a higher damage Sneak Attack.

Off on a tanget, the 13th level AT ability is totally overrated and it shows in most online discussion.  Most discussion seems to assume the AT has Mage Hand out and in position 24/7.  If one actually tracks the movement and duration of the hand, it's not 100% reliable.  RAW, gaining advantage via Versatile Trickster is not one of the uses on Mage Hand that allows it to move and the feature provides no wording to allow the hand to move.  Performing an action with the hand in order to move it is an action or a bonus action for the AT, so unless the hand is already in position, the AT won't gain advantage from the hand and attack/cast in the same turn.  I have not seen any tweets or anything in the Sage Advice Compendium to clarify RAI yet.

Shield as an MI spell does allow the AT to take Find Familiar with its off-school 1st level spell.  (I prefer that order because an extra use of Shield is more often useful than an extra use of Find Familiar.)  MI: wizard is a decent alternative to taking Ritual Caster because of the extra cantrips.  Extra cantrips might not seem that useful, but consider what an AT does with Haste.  At 14, the AT can Haste himself, using the Haste action as an extra Cunning Action essentially, or he lands his Sneak Attack with his Haste action and tacks on more damage with a scaled up cantrip via his normal action.  A familiar is a good supplement to the Mage Hand tricks because the familiar has its own actions, unlike the hand.  An owl's Flyby feature can make it a decent Sneak Attack partner in a pinch, either by flanking or the Help action.  RAW, an owl's perception and stealth proficiencies mean it can give the AT advantage for those checks per the Working Together section on page 175, though a DM could invoke the "no easier with help" clause.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 07:46:33 PM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline sambojin

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #284 on: January 01, 2017, 08:04:20 PM »
Yeah, I did try and edit that in to make it obvious that FF wasn't that good. Probably while you were writing that post :)

A lot of those "MI package's value" rests on Guidance. Roll high for initiative? Great, you get a better hide roll first turn (or soon after). Roll lowish initiative, but want it a bit higher? You get +d4 to it. Guidance is one of those things that you should always have cast when possible, because it's always useful for a rogue, and very versatile both in and out of combat. It smooths out initiative/hiding/anything very well (including any weird magehand use), making auto-10's that little bit nicer when you whiff rolls.

The rest is just some occasionally useful utility and a little potential combat power that frees up other party members to do other stuff. I sort of focused on that side of things for why these are ok'ish picks, because rogues and hiding/sniping are "that thing they always do when possible" anyway, didn't mention it because it's kind of the bread and butter of the class. Like how Guidance didn't really get a mention either, even though it's one of the best bits. You can't always hide, but you often can. When you can't, Bless or FF are nice to cast occaisionally instead of readying an action for flanking/sneak attack. The DMs I've played with tend to take great delight in slaughtering familiars of non-magic'y classes that use them solely for combat advantage anyway.

But Shield and Find Familiar always work, and are damn good picks.

Was just offering options and thoughts, though it's a hard question to answer. The best MI for AT? Like you said, there may not be one for the opportunity cost of a feat/ASI. But there's a few options that may work ok'ish, depending on your character and party make-up.



((as a thought, at level 9 with 14 Wisdom, Faerie Fire isn't all that bad. DC14 with dex disadvantage if you're hidden, so pretty close to DC16 mathematically speaking (18 Wis worth at that level) on an "reasonably dexxy" opponent as a ballpark figure. I'm not actually trying to defend it or say that it's good, but it's not that bad. 14 Wis is what I'd call "high Wisdom" on a Trickster, and maybe doable. Maybe. Possibly. Probably not. For a slightly better than 60/40'ish chance with the spell over the next few levels. Damn. I'm too used to druids and their lack of stat and feat requirements. Probably why we rarely cast it, I guess. There's some regard to having two casts of it on the same (invisible) group, but at that point, almost anything is a better use of two actions in a party. It's not horrible if it connects and everyone else plans on nova'ing (or if you can't see them in the first place), but it's not as good as I thought. If you're already hidden, shooting them may be better in most cases.))
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 12:18:09 AM by sambojin »

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #285 on: January 02, 2017, 10:23:45 AM »
I don't think MI should be ruled out as an optimal feat for an AT, but it has to be chosen carefully.  Looking through the feats, no feat stands out for a rogue like Polearm Master stands out for Strength classes or Sharpshooter stands out for archers.

I think we can narrow down the Magic Initiate choices to cleric for Bless, Guidance, and Resistance or Magic Initiate: wizard to gain an extra 1st level off-school spell with a wider variety of cantrips it's already built to use.

AT's are all about gaining versatility, so the feat choices IMO should follow that theme.
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Offline sambojin

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #286 on: January 02, 2017, 04:23:37 PM »
Alert (pump that init, first SA is a good SA. Init order and readying actions are now reliable "tools" for you. No surprise just about ever, so dex-AC is always there for you),

Crossbow Expert (lazy, casual, bonus shooting and stabbing. More attacks means a far higher chance of SA working, but it does take up your bonus action. It's not really that much better than normal two weapon fighting, but it's nice and lazy and does close-ranged work a little better),

Defensive Duelist (mini-Shield per reaction. They get better and it frees up resources. If Shield is good, then so's this. Way better than it looks, but only against melee attacks, and only for one attack per turn. Lots of things run at cocky rogues and try and hit them with stuff. You know the roll has hit you and the situation, so you'll know when to use this or Shield or when to just take the half-hit with Uncanny Dodge. +2->+6 AC on-call is seriously underrated, because a lot of things wouldn't hit you with a bit more AC, so use it regularly. Probably even better with a Trickster due to options. Can you overkill on damage mitigation?),

Lucky (keep on rolling baby, anti-disadvantage and pseudo-advantage for tricky stuff),......

......all come pretty close to being "more optimal" IMO. Not as versatile perhaps, but nice for any rogue.


Agreed on the MI choices though. There is also the fact that those feats all work well with MI anyway, so it's not exactly a horrible choice for the extra options if you've got a spare ASI for some reason.

Ummm, I'll try and find something fun so we can get back on topic.



((Defensive Duelist goes up in value depending on how your DM plays. We mostly quick-roll when there's only one possible melee target, so they may say something nice like "The *foo* hits you 3 times". That's a Shield job, that is. But if the *foo* only hits you once, it's a Duelist job. How likely were they to hit you in the first place, and for how much damage? How many more *foo* hits (or bigger) are likely to come your way this turn? When should you react? Meta-as-fuck, but so are many things. YMMV))
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 09:16:29 PM by sambojin »

Offline Delicate Swarm

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #287 on: January 03, 2017, 07:53:30 AM »
For a single classed Arcane Trickster, I'd say Mobile stands out.  Booming Blade then run away + Bonus action Hide.  Or run up, smack em and dash away without provoking.

Mobile is good for everyone, but no one uses it like Rogue.

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #288 on: January 03, 2017, 10:20:20 AM »
I disagree with that on the basis that optimal rogue play means staying at range, where Sneak Attacks work just as well and the rogue has an easier time generating advantage via hiding.  Sneak Attacks work from up to 150 feet away or farther if one gets Sharpshooter.  Why get close and take the associated risks?  The Booming Blade hypothetical falls apart, because it's contingent on fighting a single enemy with an ally next to it or gaining advantage from an external source.  If you're dealing with more than one enemy, Mobile only prevents opportunity attacks from the enemy you hit, leaving the others potentially free to attack if within range unless you Cunning Action Disengage, meaning Mobile was redundant.  If your ally is next to the enemy to setup the Sneak Attack, the enemy won't move and will just attack the ally.  All the Booming Blade Sneak Attack scenarios are more safely executed from range where the rogue does not have to expose himself to threats for the sake of a few d8s of damage.

Monk uses Mobile a bit better than rogue IMO because of the innate speed increases that leave the bonus action available for flurry or greater movement.  Monks lack the ranged options of a rogue to achieve most of their damage potential.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 10:34:49 AM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline Kremlin K.O.A.

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #289 on: January 24, 2018, 07:29:32 AM »
Arise from the dead, thread
With this necromantic fun find.

Wiz Necro 14th level ability allows you to permanently take control of an undead.  :)
If said undead is intelligent, it gets a save   :bigeyes
If said undead is int 12+ it gets a save every hour  :shakefist
Mummy Lord is Int 11  :love
That means, with a Hex, your necro has a 50/50 chance of becoming a pet class.  :P
With a legendary pet.  :lmao

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #290 on: January 24, 2018, 05:27:40 PM »
Niiiiiiiiiice !!
 :clap


(this is like a basic 3e polymorph dumpster dive, oh how the once mighty c.o. board has fallen)
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Offline Wilb

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #291 on: January 24, 2018, 05:35:25 PM »
Delightful! Congrats on the find!

 :clap :clap :clap

EDIT: its a saving throw, so Hex won't help, but Feeblemind can make this easy as cake. Mix with simulacrum stacking for "more legendary mummies than Egypt itself", and risk reducing a more powerful undead's int to 10 through wish, for that sweet Death Knight pal.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 05:48:41 PM by Wilb »
Lovely Zoma...

Offline bruceleeroy

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Re: Fun Finds: 5e Edition
« Reply #292 on: February 06, 2018, 04:27:25 PM »
Intelligence Devourer will reduce the Int of any creature with a brain to 0. Might not work on mummies, depending on your DM's interpretation.

But if it did, that's a, what, -5 to Int saves?
Normally, I would be reading this, open the reply box, decide what I had to say didn't need said, and close out. But this is just too ridiculous.