Author Topic: Sand Blaster  (Read 4834 times)

Offline ketaro

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2017, 05:50:10 PM »
Quote
Ketaro: "I'm confused. I've never seen a DC=10+x+mod format in D&D before. If x=7 I reject that D&D authors would ever do that. I'll not state why I think that those who disagree with me must be homebrewing answer. After all, Soro got away with it." 

Hey, PBMC, I know you already jumped the gun on trying to insult me for supposedly just parroting along with Soro, but you seem to have read the exact opposite of what my post actually said. Just letting ya know.

Offline Nifft

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2017, 08:37:04 PM »
I feel like someone accidentally loaded the blaster with salt.

Offline snakeman830

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2017, 11:35:15 AM »
I apologize, as I didn't read the actual Sand Giant entry before making my post.  I had wrongly assumed that, like most Giants, they didn't bother printing one with class levels as well.

Still, we have an incorrect value somewhere in there, because the Sand Giant without class levels has no fewer RHD, only has a Con mod 2 lower, but has a save DC 3 lower.  My bet is that the incorrect value is the base Sand Giant's save DC.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2017, 12:42:46 PM »
Still, we have an incorrect value somewhere in there,
Quote from: MM3 Errata
Pages 58–59: Giant, Sand
The sand giant champion’s sand blaster ability has a DC of 24, not 25 as listed.
Changes to the stat block for the sand giant champion:
Base Attack/Grapple: +16/+31
Saves: Fort +20, Ref +10, Will +10
Abilities: Con 25
Skills: Listen +12, Spot +12, Survival +10 (+12 in aboveground natural environments)
The sand giant champion should also have the Alertness feat.
That help?

Now the normal giant has 15 RHD (+7) & 21 (+5) Con with DC of 22 while the Champion has 15 RHD (+7) & 25 (+7) with a DC of 24.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2017, 11:24:23 PM »
Quote
Ketaro: "I'm confused. I've never seen a DC=10+x+mod format in D&D before. If x=7 I reject that D&D authors would ever do that. I'll not state why I think that those who disagree with me must be homebrewing answer. After all, Soro got away with it."
Hey, PBMC, I know you already jumped the gun on trying to insult me for supposedly just parroting along with Soro, but you seem to have read the exact opposite of what my post actually said. Just letting ya know.
Which part was an insult? The "I'm confused part"?
(click to show/hide)
The next to math related sentences?
(click to show/hide)
Or homebrew finger-pointing?
(click to show/hide)
And of course, Soro had been getting away with it. The above post is the only time he's cited anything useful. Since for some reason he cares enough to sh|t on the thread, if he were up to the mental challenge of citing rules, it would take about as much time as rambling on book cover illustrations and whatever. Oh wait, I think I already said this:
(click to show/hide)
So uh, what did I get wrong or how was I insulting you? Please, use quotes.

@Nifft: You won the thread. It reminds me of JaronK's old Kobold ?= truedragon thread where I post something like, "I don't know either way but I'll keep an open mind on it." And then Soro proceeded to chew me out for being a dyed-in-the-wool Kobold-lover with hardcore true dragon opinions. That was the first time I was like, "Who is this guy and what's he smokin'?" The more I tried to explain neutrality the more he was convinced. I found it rather amusing.

And lastly for those not worth the time:
(click to show/hide)

Offline ketaro

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2017, 12:01:33 AM »
Gosh, ya don't see it? How my post isn't making sense to you because you're ignoring the quotes I'm responding to with those sentences of mine you're quoting?


When I ask "How does it not make sense?", that's towards Kethrian saying how he doesn't see how having this weapon's save DC scale by Racial HD doesn't make sense despite that when you break down the DC, that's exactly what the DC is using to calculate itself.

When I ask "But yanno what doesn't make sense?", that's, again, towards Kethrian. I'm stating a question and immediately following that question with it's own answer in the form of a quote from Kethrian that contains information that actually doesn't make sense because he's stating for absolutely no reason that the base DC of the weapon is STARTING at 17 before ANY modifiers are brought into consideration. This assumption that that is what he actually means is backed up by his following statement about how that would make this an excellent weapon for lower level characters because that is a really high BASE DC for anything at low levels.
Please, PBMC, point me towards a Save DC in D&D that does not start at a base of 10 before modifiers, much less something that starts at almost a BASE of 20. Then you can make sarcastic jabs at me for supposedly not understanding something. Your apparent sarcastic jab at me for supposedly "never seen a DC=10+x+mod format in D&D before", that format is exactly what I was saying is suppose to be used as, to clarify for you once more, Kethrian was apparently using a "DC=17+x+mod" format which I was refuting.

Your following question, what was it, "The next to math related sentences?" is rolled into the above paragraph.

Homebrew finger-pointing? Are we in the homebrew section of MMX? Did I somehow miss that we are not in a rules discussion section of the forum? Please correct me if so.

Gosh
 :psyduck
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 12:03:18 AM by ketaro »

Offline Kethrian

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2017, 02:59:59 PM »
A manufactured weapon uses racial hit dice for DCs?  Never seen that anywhere in D&D before or since.  And because it is not stated by RAW, you cannot prove that it does.  All that can be proven is that the DC is 17 + Constitution Modifier for both sand giant stat blocks.  And that the sand blaster is a manufactured weapon, not a racial special ability.  In fact, the stat block for it also does not include the requisite (EX)/(SU)/(SP) that all special abilities have, further proving it is simply a weapon, whose calculated DC happens to be listed in the Special Attacks row on the giants' stat blocks.  That the DC appears to be calculated by RHD could be a coincidence.

So, because there is no evidence anywhere else in the game of a non-racial source using RHD to calculate save DCs, it sounds like that is the path to homebrew.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2017, 04:42:01 PM »
Must just be one of those weeks I suppose.
A manufactured weapon uses racial hit dice for DCs?  Never seen that anywhere in D&D before or since.
I... Am almost at a loss of what to say.

Look, the amount of things you haven't seen or don't know is infinity huge and they will continue to exist without your knowledge or acceptance thereof. Like Pixie Arrows are craftable Magical Items (107gp for sleep & 607gp for memory per SS) that contain a Save DC calculated off the Pixie's RHD, Charisma, and a Racial Bonus that Link already brought up a week ago and you still have no idea about. Just like, as my very first post mentions, the Sand Blaster has no Save DC but it is listed as a Special Attack and those have a default Save DC you are to use if nothing else is noted. The fundamental core element of the argument is in lieu of the missing entry most of us in the thread are using the default rules already in place.

And you, armed with no ability to prove the Save DC should be 17+ConMod are making posts like this.
And because it is not stated by RAW, you cannot prove that it does.
And trying to make comments like "I'm stupid!" as if it's supposed to be a rebuttal. You're not actually arguing you are right but arguing that you are just as wrong as you are trying to make us out to be. >.>

I'm sure everyone can unanimously agree that there is a point where a person just needs to shut the hell up and reassess things.
And I think you are past that point.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 04:44:26 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Kethrian

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2017, 05:36:59 PM »
Yes, yes.  Pixie special arrows.  Which not only DO NOT have any pricing or crafting rules, let alone whether they can even be given to others, and are COMPLETELY UNAVAILABLE TO PIXIE PCS.  And don't go quoting 3.0 rules as having relevance, when the pixie has been rewritten in 3.5.  Because 1) the rules for them have been updated, making all 3.0 references obsolete and worthless, 2) the 3.5 version of the sleep arrows are more powerful, and 3) nowhere does any of it state that they use RHD for those save DCs instead of spell levels or the like.  Completely invalid.

Once again, SorO, you have to resort to attacks against the person, not the argument, to try and sound like you are right.  You have not proven your side of the argument, you have not disproven mine.  Both are possible outcomes for this thing which has nothing to compare to.  You just sound like you can't accept that I could have a valid point and might possibly be right.  So therefore, since any further attempts to try and hold a somewhat civil discussion about this are impossible, I am dropping it now, having made my point.  SorO, you can bitch and whine all you like.  I won't listen to it any more.
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Offline Tshern

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2017, 05:56:41 PM »
Not really related to the point of the original thread, because I genuinely have no interest in taking part in that debate, but...

The old Sleep arrows had a flat DC 15 save, the new ones have a charisma-based one (pixies get +2 racial bonus though), so whether or not the new ones are more powerful depends on your charisma. Furthermore, the crafting rules for the item haven't been upgraded, so I don't see why you couldn't craft them with the 3.0 rules and utilising the 3.5 rules for the DC.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 06:03:55 PM by Tshern »
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Offline ketaro

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2017, 08:33:17 PM »
A manufactured weapon uses racial hit dice for DCs?  Never seen that anywhere in D&D before or since.  And because it is not stated by RAW, you cannot prove that it does.  All that can be proven is that the DC is 17 + Constitution Modifier for both sand giant stat blocks.  And that the sand blaster is a manufactured weapon, not a racial special ability.  In fact, the stat block for it also does not include the requisite (EX)/(SU)/(SP) that all special abilities have, further proving it is simply a weapon, whose calculated DC happens to be listed in the Special Attacks row on the giants' stat blocks.  That the DC appears to be calculated by RHD could be a coincidence.

So, because there is no evidence anywhere else in the game of a non-racial source using RHD to calculate save DCs, it sounds like that is the path to homebrew.

That exact same argument can be turned right around to refute itself, if your "proof" is that RAW doesn't state how the DC is calculated. As such, then we apparently can both agree that both of our DC breakdowns can only be inferred and neither mine not you can be proven by RAW.

Guess that's a double knockout on this one. There can't be a winner as the Sand Giant entry lacks information and clarity. And any outside information that backs your case can also back mine.

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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2017, 09:02:37 PM »
Yes, yes.  Pixie special arrows.  Which not only DO NOT have any pricing or crafting rules, let alone whether they can even be given to others, and are COMPLETELY UNAVAILABLE TO PIXIE PCS.
Like Pixie Arrows are craftable Magical Items (107gp for sleep & 607gp for memory per SS) that contain a Save DC calculated off the Pixie's RHD, Charisma, and a Racial Bonus that Link already brought up a week ago and you still have no idea about.
:eh

The old Sleep arrows had a flat DC 15 save, the new ones have a charisma-based one (pixies get +2 racial bonus though), so whether or not the new ones are more powerful depends on your charisma. Furthermore, the crafting rules for the item haven't been upgraded, so I don't see why you couldn't craft them with the 3.0 rules and utilising the 3.5 rules for the DC.
That whole point can quickly delve into a strawman of system differences, all that matters through is SS claims it's 3.5 compatible the Pixies are shooting magical items with a purchase cost that use a Save DC that are based off of their Special Ability calculation, ie RHD based. Trying to claim they have unanswerable points and should be ignored is an argument that applies to the Sand Blaster as well.

That exact same argument can be turned right around to refute itself, if your "proof" is that RAW doesn't state how the DC is calculated. As such, then we apparently can both agree that both of our DC breakdowns can only be inferred and neither mine not you can be proven by RAW.
I'm not sure what your point was but mine is the Rules list the Sand Blaster as a Sand Giant's Special Attack, now read page 5 of the MM3. And even if you consider it unusually unusual, overwhelming exception fallacy I think is the name, the Errata made a pass on the Sand Giant and the Sand Blaster's Save DC. It didn't move the blaster out, but made it's Save DC compliant with the rules. We're not discussing a typo, it's intentional.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 09:12:52 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline ketaro

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2017, 11:59:56 PM »
Me and Kethrian just went off on a tangent specifically about the Save DC as it is presented in just the Sand Giant's page. Or something.

His refusal or not about it being or not being a Special Attack and thus having a set of rules to follow specifically about Special Attacks is your argument. I haven't had the time to go look up and cite all the stuff related to how dnd defines Special Attacks.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 12:02:50 AM by ketaro »

Offline Captnq

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2017, 08:58:45 PM »
Someone: Don't do what you to that way.
Me: Okay. How should I do it?
Someone: Not that way.

Thanks for the productivity.

And if someone else is working on the EVD and didn't tell me, speak up now. Anyone? I'm told I'm blind and missed something.

Quote
Captnq: I know my notes are annoying, that's why I tag then in an even more annoying way. But since I've been doing this I've never seen anyone help add to a Handbook or even seen someone offer to take over an existing one, mostly because I'm blind and love to fail.

A link? Anything? Hello? Who is this person I am too blind to see?

You have a better way of organizing the notes? Speak up. What's your solution?

And yes I love failing. Only way anyone learns anything.
If you never fail, it might be because you are awesome.
Or everyone is letting you win.
Or maybe you are doing it wrong and don't know it.
Or maybe you are so retarded nobody has the heart to tell you you're a fuckin' retard.

I'd rather try and fail, then never try at all.
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Offline Tshern

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2017, 06:53:15 AM »
I'd rather try and fail, then never try at all.
In all fairness, this is the way most of the funny stuff in DnD has been discovered and refined.
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Offline The_Laughing_Man

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2017, 05:41:50 PM »
Interesting thread, Captnq :) And sorry to hear about contributors / taking over handbooks. I hope that does not feel too much of a downer for you. I have learned a thing or two from your threads. So, please, keep em coming.

back to topic

The weapon itself (Large exotic ranged weapon, Sand Blaster) has barely anything for PCs other than the prize 30 gp (sell it for 15 gp). I guess weight would be something that the PCs would need to know in order to use it. Can they even lift it?

For the Sand Giant Special Attack, Sand Blaster the save DC calculation is in the rules: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#specialAttacksAndSpecialQualities. As stated before:

10 + 1/2 the attacker’s racial Hit Dice + the relevant ability modifier (con, in this case)

For PCs I have not found rule that would state how to calculate it. For example for spells it would be 10 + spell level + ability modifier, and for other abilities as well. So 10 appears to be the base always for DCs.

So one can extrapolate for PCs (that are not sand giants) that it could be something like 10 + nothing? + con modifier. Maybe somebody can find a rule that difficulty classes always use 10 as a base. If so then book + page reference would be appreciated.

The Sand Giant's special attack Sand Blaster looks like to be extraordinary as spell-like or supernatural does not really fit to it. So with polymorph and shapechange a PC could use the weapon as extraordinary special attack. I think the DC would then be 10 + 0 (half racial hit dice) + con mod, as the PC would not have the racial hit dice. Even then lifting the thing remains an open question.

Tangent: Would Sand Blaster (extraordinary special attack) provoke an attack of opportunity? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#extraordinaryAbilities would suggest that it would not. Also it would be a standard action to use.

I suppose the user can fill as a full-round action the Sanb Blaster with 5 pounds of sand such as beach sand or desert sand. Can the san be or mixed with something else, veers easily into house rules.

I see some interesting possibilities for DM, when Sand Blaster is filled with something hilarious.

A side note. I seems that the Sand Giant Champion put its ability score improvement to strength. Also the Sand Giant uses a different base ability scores than the Champion when subtracting the racial traits from the ability scores. Not that this tidbit is useful for anything ;)

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2017, 06:44:21 PM »
How my post isn't making sense to you because you're ignoring the quotes I'm responding to with those sentences of mine you're quoting?

I had to read that fragment a few times before I it made me lol. Thanks for that. Am I doing too much quoting or not enough? I'm sorry I can't take this thread seriously any more. I just can't read any of it with a straight face. I'd stop there, but you did ask something additional:

Quote
Please, PBMC, point me towards a Save DC in D&D that does not start at a base of 10 before modifiers, much less something that starts at almost a BASE of 20. Then you can make sarcastic jabs at me for supposedly not understanding something. Your apparent sarcastic jab at me for supposedly "never seen a DC=10+x+mod format in D&D before", that format is exactly what I was saying is suppose to be used as, to clarify for you once more, Kethrian was apparently using a "DC=17+x+mod" format
The answer is: a DC for a 7th level spell. Pretending the 17+mod format has a base save other than 10 is a misnomer (almost a BASE of 20). You can quote if this is incorrect, but I recall him using 10+7+mod rather than 17+x+mod as you list.

In case it hasn't been obvious, I don't care if the level of the ability applies here or there or wherever. Have something light hearted to make it allllllll better

Offline ketaro

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2017, 12:58:37 AM »
Clearly just asking for a more clarified version of what you're quoting is something you're too far beneath to do as you find turning to memes to continue your thinly veiled insults and belittlement towards me as being the superior option. Not to mention how this entirely resolved topic had to be revived by you explicitly so you could insult me.

Quote
The answer is: a DC for a 7th level spell. Pretending the 17+mod format has a base save other than 10 is a misnomer (almost a BASE of 20). You can quote if this is incorrect, but I recall him using 10+7+mod rather than 17+x+mod as you list.

Hey, spell level modifies the base DC. Oh no! That means this isn't actually a correct answer to the question you were trying to answer! It's literally the 2nd post in this incredibly short thread so I can't see why you have to "assume" instead of literally just going back to the very start of the thread to see it. It doesn't even matter, in regards to you though, because if you'd actually read the rest of the previous posts you'd have noticed how entirely resolved everything in here is.


Anyways, sorry for being cheeky in this post, but you're really going for the long haul on picking a fight with me and I've been putting forth what apparently is looking like too much wasted effort in an attempt to not throw any jabs at you of my own in return.

Shoulda just left the topic dead like it was.  :tongue

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2017, 01:57:02 AM »
Quote
Please, PBMC, point me towards a Save DC in D&D that does not start at a base of 10 before modifiers, much less something that starts at almost a BASE of 20.
The answer is: a DC for a 7th level spell.
:eh
A saving throw against your spell has a DC of 10 + the level of the spell + your bonus for the relevant ability

Anyways, sorry for being cheeky in this post, but you're really going for the long haul on picking a fight with me and I've been putting forth what apparently is looking like too much wasted effort in an attempt to not throw any jabs at you of my own in return.
Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for are strong. Give yourself to the dark side. I'm looking forward to completing your training. In time, you will call me master and your self, Darth Witchcious.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2017, 02:52:34 PM »
More lolz about me being serious.

Anyways, sorry for being cheeky in this post, but you're really going for the long haul on picking a fight with me and I've been putting forth what apparently is looking like too much wasted effort in an attempt to not throw any jabs at you of my own in return.
Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for are strong. Give yourself to the dark side. I'm looking forward to completing your training. In time, you will call me master and your self, Darth Witchcious.
Soro just won the thread.