Author Topic: The Politics Thread v2  (Read 16234 times)

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #980 on: April 20, 2016, 05:09:07 PM »
Ivanka Trump and one of her brothers
registered too late to be able to vote.

Ha.
Ha
(sad wtf is wrong with this country)
Ha.
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #981 on: April 20, 2016, 09:33:20 PM »
(Let me preface this by saying that I live in NJ, and our primary is late enough that it's not going to make a difference in the outcome of the Democratic nomination.)

Much as I want Bernie to win (and I do), at this point, realistically he won't. However, I'm worried that the voting shenanigans - regardless of who or what the real cause is - are going to alienate enough voters that a door will be opened for Trump/Cruz, whether or not Bernie runs as an independent. I'd guess that this feeling is exacerbated by the fact that most of my facebook feed is from educated people in my age group, and thus right in Bernie's wheelhouse, but it still worries me.

Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #982 on: April 20, 2016, 10:42:00 PM »
NJ will still be relevant to the DNC race.  It's probably going to come down to California, the very last one.  And ifNJ does well enough, that will help him.

As for the voter loss?  Well, here's the thing.  She won't be losing all that many votes in the GE because he's been bringing in new voters mostly.  The people who won't vote for her, or will vote for Stein or write in Sanders in the GE are mostly people who won't be voting anyways.  HOWEVER.  And this is a huge issue, the down ticket will suffer BIG TIME for the Ds.  So that down ticket "issue" they've been saying Sanders is going to cause by not fundraising for down ticket even though he has been?  It's actually only a problem with Hillary.  They won't get the votes out needed to retake seats in the House and Senate.  Unless Kasich is the R nominee, Hillary will almost certainly be president if she wins this nom.  But the obstruction will be even worse than it is now.  Basically the only way things get done over the next 4 years is if Sanders or an R is president.  And if it's one of the Rs other than kasich, they won't be good things.  I see very little functional difference in a Kasich or Clinton presidency.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #983 on: April 20, 2016, 10:52:39 PM »
Both Kasich and Clinton have one huge thing going for them: they're not out to alienate every other country on Earth.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #984 on: April 20, 2016, 11:06:32 PM »
And if it's one of the Rs other than kasich, they won't be good things. 
I saw this earlier and thought it might be appropriate here.  :P
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Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #985 on: April 20, 2016, 11:13:57 PM »
Both Kasich and Clinton have one huge thing going for them: they're not out to alienate every other country on Earth.

And that's why they won't be disasters!

@Phae:yeah, I've seen that.  I don't think Hillary would be as bad as that, but still.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #986 on: April 20, 2016, 11:24:16 PM »
@Phae:yeah, I've seen that.  I don't think Hillary would be as bad as that, but still.
I think the point is that that is the logical conclusion of unbridled capitalism/status quo. That's what I took from it, anyway. Technological progress without social progress leads to a dystopian future where power is more and more concentrated into the hands of a few oligarchs, while everyone else eeks out a miserable existence in squalor.
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Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #987 on: April 20, 2016, 11:32:12 PM »
Yeah, but I don't think she'll make the air brown  :lmao
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Offline bhu

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #988 on: April 21, 2016, 01:01:43 AM »
You guys give Kasich too much credit.  He may seem temperate but he is rabidly anti abortion, and is known for being (and I'm quoting a republican congressman  here ) "A sanctimonious prick who throws a massive hissy fit at the slightest sign of disagreement."  He'll work on bipartisan stuff with the Dems, but he'll be every bit the warmonger Hillary or Bush would have been.  And he'll only work on bipartisan stuff when he needs to bribe or pander to someone.  He's gutted social programs in the state (as well as education), and tried to gut unions but stopped when he got backlash from police and firemen.  He was one of the key architects of clintons welfare "reform".  He was at Lehman brothers during the economic fall.  He supports fracking in public parks or land, the Keystone XL, privatized prisons, etc.  He and the republicans rabidly opposed marijuana legalization, defeating it by focusing on the idea it enshrined a monopoly into the state constitution.  They then made a big show of passing a law forbidding monopolies being created by the voters or private entities, while quietly omitting that it allows the state to create monopolies enshrined in our constitution with no public input or participation.   Suddenly, medical marijuana is being loudly put on the track to approval by republicans, who are not mentioning that it's a constitutional monopoly directly benefiting their donors.  He continues to gut public schools while funneling their money to charter schools that have no oversight, many of whom have been open frauds, sexually or physically abusive of children, or performed well below our already shitty public school level of performance.

He balanced the budget by eliminating all state aid to local, city or county governments, all of whom had to raise taxes to make up for the loss.  He just shifted the tax burden from stater gummint to local.  Farmers were told a few years back their property taxes would double.  Last year they doubled again, and they were warned they'd double again in the near future.  He didn't balance the budget so much as use sleight of hand to disguise what was happening until e has another office.  He seems moderate, but since the election he's become much less so to pander to people who would never vote for him in the first place.  He supports abolishing the 14th amendment and making citizenship a revocable privilege as opposed to a right.  He hates public transportation and has fought tooth and nail to oppose any being built while attempting to take apart what we already have.  He constantly tries to curtail voting or in some way fuck with the voting laws to the extent there are multiple lawsuits every single year. 

Even the local republicans hate him.  He got elected with Tea Party support, and basically promptly told them "I got elected, fuck you, I don't need you anymore".  Moderates don't like him either because his ideology is less "conservative" and more "do what I say or I'll fuck things up till you see it my way."  The farmers hate him, the police and firemen hate him, the teachers hate him, social conservatives and tea party conservatives hate him, liberals of all kinds definitely hate him.  If he wins re-election it will be by a very slim margin.  He's pissed off enough people Ohio could go blue again in 2018, if for no other reason than the tea party and libertarians have vowed to support anyone but him, even if that someone is a democrat, after he got their last candidate kicked off the ballot in the primary last election season.

Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #989 on: April 21, 2016, 01:30:55 AM »
And....I see no real functional difference with him and Hillary at the presidency.  While he is awful, all of his views that aren't really in line with hers aren't possible at a federal level (at least, my brain refuses to believe it's so), and what would end up happening would be a Hillary presidency just from a different angle.  The things she's more progressive on than him won't go through because the Senate and House will be even more obstructionist on them than they are now, and the things he's more conservative on than her won't go through because the Senate won't go along with it, and the House might not either.  And the courts would reject it.

EDIT: the only reason a functional difference would arise is if somehow the makeup of the legislature and courts, and/or the sanity of them, was altered in a significant way.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #990 on: April 21, 2016, 03:17:56 PM »
And....I see no real functional difference with him and Hillary at the presidency.  While he is awful, all of his views that aren't really in line with hers aren't possible at a federal level (at least, my brain refuses to believe it's so), and what would end up happening would be a Hillary presidency just from a different angle. 
There's the entire vast apparatus of the federal bureaucracy, most of which goes unnoticed and that the president has a substantial hand in directing, especially if Congress isn't united enough to do anything about it. 

The things she's more progressive on than him won't go through because the Senate and House will be even more obstructionist on them than they are now, and the things he's more conservative on than her won't go through because the Senate won't go along with it, and the House might not either.  And the courts would reject it.

EDIT: the only reason a functional difference would arise is if somehow the makeup of the legislature and courts, and/or the sanity of them, was altered in a significant way.
There are midterm elections, so who knows what could happen.  I'm also curious why you think there's anything Hillary would want to do that would be out of bounds constitutionally.  Or, are you thinking of unilateral action, viz. Obama's immigration "policy" currently before the Supreme Court?

Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #991 on: April 21, 2016, 04:23:20 PM »
You misunderstand.  I was referring to things he (Kasich) wants to do that would be ruled unconstitutional.  And she might have similar things to that Obama action issue yes, but I'm not really referring to those.  Although again, this is about functional difference, not idealogical difference.  There is a definite idealogical difference between the two, I just think that the end result of each in the office will be roughly the same.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #992 on: April 21, 2016, 06:35:07 PM »
Child ("dancing") :  Mom I hafta peeeeee !!

Stranger-danger :  Drop your shorts before you go in.

 :tdown


Hey we almost need another thread, and
neither side's Prez race is all sewn up ?!
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #993 on: April 21, 2016, 06:58:41 PM »
Although again, this is about functional difference, not idealogical difference.  There is a definite idealogical difference between the two, I just think that the end result of each in the office will be roughly the same.
And I was pointing out that, even setting aside all the potential changes that might happen due to midterm elections or court vacancies (of which there are many, it's just only the Supreme Court that gets press), there is the vast apparatus of the federal bureaucracy that the President largely controls, especially when Congress can't act.

That is a gigantic amount of policymaking that the President will largely shape.  I am pointing this out as a major functional difference that you (and lots of other people, generally speaking) are missing.

Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #994 on: April 21, 2016, 07:07:45 PM »
I don't think the executive action is as powerful as you think it is, although it is more powerful than people realize.  And less powerful.  It's weird.  People think Obama's using it to literally trample on their rights.  Like, manifest them as physical objects to trample on them.  And then they simultaneously think he can't do anything of note with them.  But mostly, it's a directorial thing.  Choose to spend the money that Congress has allocated for these things that Congress has enacted.  And choose how to spend that money.  There's a deceptive amount of stuff you can do with it, because it's all bureaucracy.

And all of that federal policy making?  I don't think there will be a functional difference between the two.  I hope Kasich is the R nominee because of what it would do for foreign relations (namely, what it would not do: piss every one off with bigots like Trump and Cruz as a potential choice).  Between her and Kasich, I hope she wins because her views are somewhat closer to mine and what I view as ethical.  Not terribly close, but closer.  She's slightly right of center, he's right of center, with a far right twinge at times as Bhu said.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The Politics Thread v2
« Reply #995 on: April 21, 2016, 07:27:51 PM »
I hate picking signatures.