Author Topic: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom  (Read 37634 times)

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2016, 01:19:37 PM »
Relative points of view aren't going to help you define someone as an ally when they: A) tried to kill you, B) are total strangers, C) aren't associated with any known allied group, and D) would literally rather die than help you. At that point, it's wishful thinking. xD
Still short tempered.

Offline Anomander

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2016, 01:46:05 PM »
They look android-like, so in her experience they are either androids or something like Erinyes Prototype; androids to her are all potential allies as members of the AA and if they are humanoids converted into android-likeness like Anna was they probably got mind-controlled and need help.
True goodness never stops helping people just because they are strangers.
That they got blown up could just as easily be a way for whoeever is controlling them to prevent anyone from helping them. and using them to get back to the source. As far as Mao is concerned they are probably victims.

Remember the living entities that were sensed in the dome, moving around? All likely corrupted humanoids turned into monsters. They are all civilians that could potentially be returned to normal.
Whoever the real enemy is likely responsible for that as well, so that creates a pattern where the enemy likes changing people to turn them into weapons to do its bidding. Now can just as easily be another instance of the same tactic.

Oh, she is also a saint. Goodness that goes beyond what comes naturally.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 04:12:29 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #62 on: June 27, 2016, 07:38:01 PM »
Mao used Doll's war against them.

Doll's war specifically only works against opponents/enemies.

You had already declared them as non-allies this very round.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #63 on: June 27, 2016, 07:42:21 PM »
I've realised two concerning things. Number one, Amaterasu now has an axe. Number two, she keeps getting bigger.

What have we done? :lmao
Still short tempered.

Offline Anomander

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #64 on: June 27, 2016, 08:41:31 PM »
Quote
'Doll's war specifically only works against opponents/enemies.

You had already declared them as non-allies this very round.' is not a valid dice string!
Mao doesn't consider people to be her enemies unless they represent everything she is against but they are adversaries if they attack her, or otherwise oppose her for as long as they do. When they no longer oppose her, they are no longer opponents.
Once dead, they no longer oppose her, and are no longer her opponents.

Allies can be opponents and adversaries all the same. If an ally was possessed/dominated, such as might very well be the case in our current situation, we can attack it like an enemy since it is attacking us. It doesn't mean we can no longer treat them as allies for the purpose of helping them. Which is what Mao is doing now.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 08:43:28 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #65 on: June 27, 2016, 10:41:51 PM »
Yet even in your IC talk you just called them enemies, despite only two of them having attacked you so far.

And Mao didn't even bother to talk/sense motive, so she clearly never considered the chance that they're charmed/dominated. Deploy drones. Maximum beatdown. Surrender is not an option.

And who knows, maybe they wanted to die. What if the unknown warriors have loved ones that will be executed in gruesome painful ways if they let themselves be captured by the Android Administration?

Plus, while declaring somebody an enemy only demands one side to do it, declaring somebody an ally is a two-way affair. Unless you want to claim enemies can declare themselves allies to benefit from the party's ally-only area effects and stuff.
 


Offline Anomander

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #66 on: June 27, 2016, 11:53:45 PM »
Quote
Yet even in your IC talk you just called them enemies, despite only two of them having attacked you so far.
Of course. They are still opposing her.

Quote
And Mao didn't even bother to talk/sense motive, so she clearly never considered the chance that they're charmed/dominated. Deploy drones. Maximum beatdown. Surrender is not an option.
Naturally! They saw her, then attacked her without saying anything while the others were attacking civilians.
That sealed the deal. If they are androids and don't recognize her, something wrong may be going on. But they are attacking civilians, so she must stop them as soon as possible to protect them. She knows she cannot kill them so she can just knock them down to protect the civilians and sort it out with them after in better, and safer, conditions.
Engaging in conversation is pointless and not an inefficient way of figuring out what is going on since while she talks they'd still be killing more civilians, along with whatever is going on further back there. She may be nice but she's still a machine. She's here to bring order to the place. She can have tea with them when they are no longer a danger to others and themselves.
If, for example, Amaterasu was dominated and started attacking her and killing civilians with her nukes, Mao wouldn't risk tactics that can fail to stop her killing people more people, she wouldn't hesitate to beat her lights out to unconsciousness to stop the rampage then find a way to stop the domination.

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And who knows, maybe they wanted to die. What if the unknown warriors have loved ones that will be executed in gruesome painful ways if they let themselves be captured by the Android Administration?
That's right! They may really need help! Their loved ones could be in danger but the civilians they are currently attacking are in an immediately less theoretical danger of death than these possible loved ones, so they'll take priority for now. Basic peacekeeping procedures. She'll see about those possibly endangered loved ones once they are informed on the matter, and if the damage has already been done, it'll at least perhaps help them to nail whose responsible to put a stop to more androids being forced to kill against their wishes. They ended a war for this already.

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Plus, while declaring somebody an enemy only demands one side to do it, declaring somebody an ally is a two-way affair. Unless you want to claim enemies can declare themselves allies to benefit from the party's ally-only area effects and stuff.
They can certainly declare themselves allies to provide effects with benefits. If they want to receive them they have to be acknowledged as allies by the one providing the beneficial effect since the effect that relies on the perception of the one doing the effect, not the one receiving it. If the ability requires the target to be willing, that's a different story.
In our case, they are welcome to benefit from her support buffs while being dead and no longer opposing her.
It's very similar to how it went down with Arryk. She'd love to gets things in good terms with the girl but she had to be handled and neutralized for her own good and to protect the rest of the ship's inhabitants. She would have tried to revive her as well if she had been able to get there in time.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 12:04:10 AM by Anomander »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #67 on: June 28, 2016, 01:21:28 AM »
It's very similar to how it went down with Arryk.
I was thinking the same exact thing but for literately none of the reasons you posted.

At least this time I get to eat the popcorn.
Would you die if you jumped from my perceived ego to your IQ? - Is 15secs of confirmation bias a goal post worth arguing for? - Ever asked a "victim" what they did to deserve it? - Are the words teen, SJW, & liberal synonyms? - "Only Sith deals in absolutes" contains a misspelled word.

Offline ketaro

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #68 on: June 28, 2016, 01:28:34 AM »
It's very similar to how it went down with Arryk.
I was thinking the same exact thing but for literately none of the reasons you posted.

At least this time I get to eat the popcorn.

Good news! Katherine is literally bringing popcorn.  :cool


And gosh, I thought Anomander was just messing with Os but this is sounding like a serious argument...... -_-'

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2016, 02:31:30 AM »
Ally (noun): a person, group, or nation that is associated with another or others for some common cause or purpose.

Biology. a plant, animal, or other organism bearing an evolutionary relationship to another, often as a member of the same family:

a person who associates or cooperates with another; supporter.


The unknown warriors do not have a common cause or purpose with Mao. They are not an organism bearing an evolutionary relationship to Mao. They have not associated, cooperated or supported Mao by any means. They fit zero of the definitions for "ally".

Background fluff is no excuse to change the very definition of words.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 02:33:01 AM by oslecamo »

Offline Anomander

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #70 on: June 28, 2016, 03:44:22 AM »
Quote
The unknown warriors do not have a common cause or purpose with Mao.
That's what I'm saying. We don't know for sure. They could be allies with an ill effect making them hostile. They probably are.
Again, Mao suspects they were tinkered with and is trying to save at least one of them. Android fellowship.
Quote
They are not an organism bearing an evolutionary relationship to Mao
They look pretty android-like to her.

I'm not changing the definition, only stating that this definition applies in her perception of the unknown warrior. Another victim that needs saving.
For the same reason that, in a character's mind such as your interpretation of the crusader, someone can see a rock or another harmless piece of something and see it as something that fits the definition of an enemy which, if you look it up, a rock doesn't exactly fit into.


Oh, I'll note that we can move the game forward. This is all something in the sidelines that isn't really important and can be altered/removed later if needs be since Mao herself won't interact with the unknown warrior anyway. It'd be handled by Code 25 which is likely to have nothing else to do for a while anyway.
Just need to know what's beyond further into the ship to update my turn's remaining actions.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 03:57:45 AM by Anomander »

Offline ketaro

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #71 on: June 28, 2016, 03:55:18 AM »
He also said being an ally is a two-way street. If you are their enemy, they are not your ally. Both parties gotta agree.

Are you seriously arguing this? We can literally just buy a raise dead later for chump change. Or, Mao apparently has background access to free clones to be made of unwilling subjects sooooo...........

Besides, they just look like humanoid-shaped robot drones to me. Not really much at all like how the Android race is described in the SRW Races thread. They're more likely more closely related to your Dolls than anything else.

Offline Anomander

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #72 on: June 28, 2016, 04:07:30 AM »
Quote
He also said being an ally is a two-way street. If you are their enemy, they are not your ally.
Not necessarily. Case of the dominated ally in point.

Quote
We can literally just buy a raise dead later for chump change. Or, Mao apparently has background access to free clones to be made of unwilling subjects sooooo...........
Doesn't work. Raise dead needs a body and cloning requires at least a limb. They self-destruct so there is nothing left to use. This is why this could be important.

Quote
Besides, they just look like humanoid-shaped robot drones to me. Not really much at all like how the Android race is described in the SRW Races thread. They're more likely more closely related to your Dolls than anything else.
They have a classic Android appearance as featured in PSO, which is the campaign theme were are playing. So they look very much like androids.
Mao's drones only look like androids because she modeled them to look like some. Also, when we looked at the footage of the invasion, I recall it being clearly stated that they what we saw were androids and supposedly these guys are among the folks that did it.
You'll remember that during the invasion everyone though they had authority in the place, as they gave orders and got people going into the teleporters, which also indicates that they may have been among the first colonists, likely among the androids managing the project, until they got participating into the nasty business. Likely by the same people that turned colonists into monsters and turned Anna into an android-like creature.
So they probably are indeed allies of Mao as fellow AA representatives on Ragol until something happened there that led to the invasion.

I'm surprised I seem to be the only that sees this coming as a very likely scenario given one of Osle's recurring themes in DMing is the taint and transformation of stuff into evil versions. Always makes a good story.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 04:24:44 AM by Anomander »

Offline ketaro

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #73 on: June 28, 2016, 06:03:43 AM »
Aight, I'm out. Good luck Os, I'ma just go quietly wait for my turn then  :whistle

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #74 on: June 28, 2016, 06:49:01 AM »
Quote
The unknown warriors do not have a common cause or purpose with Mao.
That's what I'm saying. We don't know for sure. They could be allies with an ill effect making them hostile. They probably are.
Again, Mao suspects they were tinkered with and is trying to save at least one of them. Android fellowship.
Quote
They are not an organism bearing an evolutionary relationship to Mao
They look pretty android-like to her.

I'm not changing the definition, only stating that this definition applies in her perception of the unknown warrior. Another victim that needs saving.
For the same reason that, in a character's mind such as your interpretation of the crusader, someone can see a rock or another harmless piece of something and see it as something that fits the definition of an enemy which, if you look it up, a rock doesn't exactly fit into.
O'rrly?
Enemy (noun)
1. a person who feels hatred for, fosters harmful designs against, or engages in antagonistic activities against another; an adversary or opponent.
2.
an armed foe; an opposing military force:
The army attacked the enemy at dawn.
3.
a hostile nation or state.
4.
a citizen of such a state.
5.
enemies, persons, nations, etc., that are hostile to one another:
Let's make up and stop being enemies.
6.
something harmful or prejudicial

By definition, "enemy" can indeed apply to non-sentient things. And rocks do happen to be the oldest weapon in existence.

The only way "ally" could apply to the unknown warriors is if Mao has somehow become schyzophrenic and unable to tell reality from dream anymore. Allies=/=victims.

Just need to know what's beyond further into the ship to update my turn's remaining actions.
In her current delirious state Mao sees pink bunnies playing in a flower field under a purple sun.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #75 on: June 28, 2016, 07:07:09 AM »
I'm surprised I seem to be the only that sees this coming as a very likely scenario given one of Osle's recurring themes in DMing is the taint and transformation of stuff into evil versions. Always makes a good story.

Whether it's a likely scenario or not has nothing to do with whether they're allies.

And I'd rather avoid every enemy from now on getting to take advantage of attacks that don't hurt allies or area buffs.
Still short tempered.

Offline Anomander

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #76 on: June 28, 2016, 11:16:22 AM »
Quote
The only way "ally" could apply to the unknown warriors is if Mao has somehow become schyzophrenic and unable to tell reality from dream anymore. Allies=/=victims
Or believes that they are probably fellow Android Administration representative that went in the first wave of colonists that have been tempered with. Which she does. Which is also very possible. Androids willingly going against the AA's interests? What a strange thought.

Quote
By definition, "enemy" can indeed apply to non-sentient things. And rocks do happen to be the oldest weapon in existence.
There we go. The one line that can somewhat be interpreted to justify abusing the targeting system. Because it needs abusing, right?

And now Mao is faced with fellow androids that shares an evolutionary relationship with her and were among members of her organization in Ragol that got cleared by a group that specializes in corrupting people into evil minions. And she cannot help them because it may be an abuse of the targeting system. Not until she knows for sure that they are indeed infected members of her group. All right.

Quote
In her current delirious state Mao sees pink bunnies playing in a flower field under a purple sun.
I don't mind Yoshiko being in her own little world since she didn't attack anyone yet but I see there's no point to it since solid proof of fellowship is required to see it as an ally. Unknown is still dead. Moving on.

Also, any official/homebrew rules applying for targeting body parts to sever them?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 11:19:32 AM by Anomander »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #77 on: June 28, 2016, 11:57:22 AM »
Also, any official/homebrew rules applying for targeting body parts to sever them?
Ambush Feats.
Also my personal favorite.

Pretty much anything more is broken if it can directly be used in combat.
Scale by AC? Just focus on your attack bonus.
Scale by damage? Pointless, you were just hit with like 760 damage, use nonlethal and chop limbs off afterwards.
Random? Pretty much just flavor and a hate-PCs option.
etc.
Would you die if you jumped from my perceived ego to your IQ? - Is 15secs of confirmation bias a goal post worth arguing for? - Ever asked a "victim" what they did to deserve it? - Are the words teen, SJW, & liberal synonyms? - "Only Sith deals in absolutes" contains a misspelled word.

Offline Anomander

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #78 on: June 28, 2016, 01:42:21 PM »
Thanks for the input! The Ambush feats aren't severing the limbs off though. Nice find on Grim Revenge.

As for other means, I'm not sure.  They'll still blow themselves up with non-lethal damage since they blew themselves up when they got unconscious, not when they died since Mao cannot kill them.
Damage that could kill them applied to specific areas could work since losing a limb is technically better than getting killed. I recall searching for official dismemberment rules but I forgot where/if I found them. I'll check around once I've more time.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
« Reply #79 on: July 01, 2016, 11:01:12 PM »
I suppose it's a good thing even AA's Spring Attack doesn't work with manoeuvres. Else having no idea what's happening a bit further down would be weird.
Still short tempered.