Author Topic: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving  (Read 8501 times)

Online Maelphaxerazz

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2017, 06:35:40 PM »
The real question is if followers can take Leadership. There isn't any rule against it anywhere, but technically, followers having Leadership could lead to an infinite Leadership chain (where "infinite" is "until the DM throws a book at you", of course).

Offline Drammor

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2017, 07:16:24 PM »
Heh, that sounds fun. I was only considering risking one extra layer of leadership.

I realized I dont have levels for side b before paragon kicks in...Since you have ToB on side b list, would path of war be acceptable as well? Likely a warlord

Those guys are great, warlord would be acceptable. :)

The real question is if followers can take Leadership. There isn't any rule against it anywhere, but technically, followers having Leadership could lead to an infinite Leadership chain (where "infinite" is "until the DM throws a book at you", of course).

I know there's no rule against it, but I'd appreciate it if you could refrain. I'm fine with you having "lieutenants," but followers with leadership creates a kind of political environment that I am not prepared for.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline Chemus

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2017, 11:08:00 PM »
...another suitable undead-themed deity is the Evening Glory, from Libris Mortis page 17, the goddess of undying love.
...

hmm, I don't recall looking at the fluff of LM; I'll have to remedy that. Undying love could truly be obscure enough to be fun.

I vote her, even though her theme doesn't fit Orks[tm] well...



The real question is if followers can take Leadership. There isn't any rule against it anywhere, but technically, followers having Leadership could lead to an infinite Leadership chain (where "infinite" is "until the DM throws a book at you", of course).

I know there's no rule against it, but I'd appreciate it if you could refrain. I'm fine with you having "lieutenants," but followers with leadership creates a kind of political environment that I am not prepared for.

Unless you can get a 6th level follower's leadership score up to 21 (and they don't gain levels, so it has to be built-in), then they don't get 6th level followers, so don't loop to infinity. My calculation is that by giving my, and my Cohort's (and Co-Cohort's), eligible followers Leadership, I gain 6 'loops' of leadership.

As you prefer not, then I'll limit the Leadership feats to just Me, my Cohorts and their eligible Cohorts. That is to the Characters that can be Gestalt.



Undead Leadership is better for me than Leadership, as I'm planning to be using Necropolitans.

And I found this gem of a PrC, regarding Turn resistance: Lady/Lord of the Dead. Same prerequisites as Legendary Leader, so that's good, and it's also only 5 levels.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 12:06:59 AM by Chemus »
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Online Maelphaxerazz

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2017, 01:03:30 AM »
Unless you can get a 6th level follower's leadership score up to 21 (and they don't gain levels, so it has to be built-in), then they don't get 6th level followers, so don't loop to infinity.

Leadership Score 21 at level 6: 6 from level + 5 from Cha modifier (15 base score + 2 racial + 2 from Magic-Blooded template from Dragon 306 + 1 increase at lvl 4), that leaves only 10 left to go. + 2 Great Diplomat feat + 2 Might Makes Right feat, + 2 Ecclesiarch feat, + 2 Improved Leadership feat, + 2 Natural Leader (Dragon 346) feat. If you are wondering how I got 6 feats, consider: 3 base, + 2 from flaws, +1 bonus feat from a class (for example, Savant level 2, with Savant being appropriately Tier 4).

Therefore, you can in fact have a Leadership score of 21 at level 6.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 01:18:46 AM by Maelphaxerazz »

Offline ketaro

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2017, 03:08:55 AM »
Death(Storm) Giant Blooded (Major) Paragon Orc Orc Warlord Warlord  :lmao
Side A: Barbarion 5/Orc Warlord 4
Side B: Warlord 5/Paragon 4
Str: 27 Dex: 10 Con: 18 Int: 10 Wis: 8 Cha: 14
Stats include level-up bonuses, racial bonuses, Paragon bonuses, Major (Death)Storm Giant Bloodline bonuses. (Worth it~)


1st) Warlord Bonus: Power Attack -> Retrained at 2nd to Kyber's Fury (Raging: +2 Str -2 AC cannot end voluntarily)
1st) Daunting Presence
2nd) Bloodline Bonus: Power Attack
3rd) Cleave -> Retrained at 8th to Reckless Rage (Raging: +2 Str +2 Con -2 AC)
6th) Leadership -> Retrained at 8 to Might Makes Right
8th) Orc Warlord Bonus: Leadership
8th) Bloodline Bonus: Cleave
9th) Extra Followers

Base Leadership Score: 19 (23 if Renown, Fairness/Generosity, Power; 25 if Stronghold/Base of Operations)

So I may have somehow missed that the 3rd level of Orc Warlord grants Leadership as a bonus feat. So either retraining an earlier grab of Leadership or let picking up any feat with Leadership as a prereq if already had Leadership. Either way, somehow both Leadership and Might Makes Right gets wedged in their, it just changes the order :p

I sacked Dragon Cohort upon realizing this really only gives you something on par with a familiar. In that's it's god damn tiny. I'll just steal a giant flying monster to ride on for thematic purposes instead~ Maybe the necromancer can build me a zombie dragon in exchange for giving him a bard with Requiem & an Alphorn  :devil
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 07:27:18 PM by ketaro »

Offline Chemus

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2017, 11:53:35 AM »
...Therefore, you can in fact have a Leadership score of 21 at level 6.

Sure, but make sure that you have the prerequisites prior to taking the feats (Imp. Leadership, Might Makes Right). In fact, when I mentioned potentially having a 'loop' of Leadershipped followers, I hadn't gotten there. I think you'd have to DCFS some earlier feats in order to get...

Magic Blooded? So Draconic Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar have +2 Str, +2 Con, +6 Cha, and LA +1? I soooo often neglect Dragon material that I forget that it exists.

I also didn't know that Leader feats bump Leadership scores by 1.
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Offline Drammor

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2017, 10:31:51 PM »
I hope you guys are bringing your coats, because I've been doing nothing but building NPCs for the last two days. It's going to rain weals and woes for sessions.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline Chemus

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2017, 11:54:45 PM »
Doh! and I don't think augury is on my list.

So, I neglected Undead Leadership; are you OK with both Leadersihp and Undead Leadership on the chracters?. How does UL interact with Extra Followers ('You can lead twice as many followers as indicated for your Leadership score...')? And how about Improved Cohort ('...maximum level of the cohort you gain from the Leadership feat...is one lower than your character level.')?

I'm assuming that the first feat doubles both, but that the second feat doesn't influence the Undead Leadership Cohort, only the Leadership Cohort.

I'm looking at Drakkensteed ACF for flying Paladins. If the Undead Leadership + Leadership feats each double from extra followers, then I'd have about 30 flying mounted pally's for 10-12 hours per day, each with spirited charge and masterwork or better lances. If not, then I have ~25, plus my character.

Is there going to be a lot of above-ground fighting? Otherwise Underdark Knight looks promising.

And here's a revised build
(click to show/hide)

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Offline Drammor

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2017, 12:39:31 AM »
I'm fine with both Leadership and Undead Leadership on characters. To be a bit transparent, it's a trick I've used on some of the villains in the campaign. But you should note that taking UL has a negative impact on your living Leadership score. Improved Cohort is also fine, and does work the way you guessed.

There will be a lot of above-ground, and indoors fighting. Underground fighting will be rather limited. And that's a nice little cavalry unit you've got there. Hopefully they'll survive.

Edit: Ah, and remember to check back on the OP from time to time. I've been updating it with information.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 01:06:50 AM by Drammor »
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline ketaro

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2017, 01:24:45 AM »
Do Cohorts and Followers get Traits & Flaws?

Offline Drammor

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2017, 09:58:44 AM »
Cohorts do, and followers of 5th level and above, but followers of 4th level and below do not.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Online Maelphaxerazz

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2017, 12:17:47 PM »
you should note that taking UL has a negative impact on your living Leadership score.
How does that work? Do we apply Undead Leadership's modifiers to both the leadership scores (i.e. taking Leadership and Undead Leadership is like Undead Leadership x2)?

Offline Drammor

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #52 on: March 09, 2017, 01:23:49 PM »
"Your leadership score is treated as 2 higher than it otherwise would be for the purposes of attracting undead followers and treated as 4 lower than it otherwise would be for the purposes of attracting living followers."

So, your Leadership score gets -4 if you have UL, and your Undead Leadership score gets +2.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline Chemus

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2017, 01:50:27 PM »
I read the sentence to say that the penalty should impact only if your followers are living; undead followers, which should be available under Leadership too, would not be diminished, but bolstered. Effectively 2 sets of Undead (say, Necropolitan) followers at +2. Or are you saying that Leadership can't attract intelligent Undead followers/Cohorts, so would be automatically diminished?

My stated plan has been to have Necropolitan (+0 LA), Magic Blooded (+0 LA), Lesser Aasimar (+0 LA) Cohorts and followers. For those starting above 2nd level, I was planning on having Draconic Templated (+1 LA) Cohorts and Followers.

[Edit] Upon consideration, the Half Nymph Template (DR 313, p95, +2 LA) instead of the Draconic Template looks rather promising for my PC and any Cohorts (and Followers who begin play at 6th or higher); +2 to Dex, Int and Wis, +4 to Cha, minor version of Nymph's Blinding Beauty (causes shaken in Humanoids). Loses +2 to str, but that's not necessarily too bad, and allows reflow of the PB chars' stats around it (dex & wis, mostly)...

My PC and Cohorts would have any un-bought-off LA on the Marshal/Legendary Leader side of the Gestalt, so PC is at full, Cohorts at LA 1 until 9th.[/Edit]


Having undead followers is why I have L. of the Dead on my char and my Cohorts over 6th level; it boosts Turn resistance for the character, and also bolsters Turn Resistance for 'Undead allies within 30 feet...'
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 02:13:15 PM by Chemus »
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Offline ketaro

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2017, 03:13:19 PM »
So how's the adding templates to PC work here? We get up to +2 for free or something?

Online Maelphaxerazz

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2017, 05:39:24 PM »
One question: approximately how long, level-wise, do you plan the campaign to be? It is important for planning ahead for prestige classes: some are worth pursuing mostly for their capstone, and thus the choice depends on what level we expect to finish on.

Offline Drammor

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2017, 05:47:54 PM »
So how's the adding templates to PC work here? We get up to +2 for free or something?

They're not free. Nothing is free. :3 Level adjustment fills in on one side of the gestalt, the same side that you use for prcs and racial hit dice. If you choose to buy off a level adjustment pre-gameplay, the requisite XP comes out of your XP total, which can decrease your ECL until you have enough XP again.

One question: approximately how long, level-wise, do you plan the campaign to be? It is important for planning ahead for prestige classes: some are worth pursuing mostly for their capstone, and thus the choice depends on what level we expect to finish on.

Per the OP, I'm planning to go up to level 15. We might not stop there, because I don't have everything charted out mathemagically, but that's the target.

Semi-relatedly, what are you guys planning to do for healing? Leave it up to the bard?

I read the sentence to say that the penalty should impact only if your followers are living; undead followers, which should be available under Leadership too, would not be diminished, but bolstered. Effectively 2 sets of Undead (say, Necropolitan) followers at +2. Or are you saying that Leadership can't attract intelligent Undead followers/Cohorts, so would be automatically diminished?

My stated plan has been to have Necropolitan (+0 LA), Magic Blooded (+0 LA), Lesser Aasimar (+0 LA) Cohorts and followers. For those starting above 2nd level, I was planning on having Draconic Templated (+1 LA) Cohorts and Followers.

[Edit] Upon consideration, the Half Nymph Template (DR 313, p95, +2 LA) instead of the Draconic Template looks rather promising for my PC and any Cohorts (and Followers who begin play at 6th or higher); +2 to Dex, Int and Wis, +4 to Cha, minor version of Nymph's Blinding Beauty (causes shaken in Humanoids). Loses +2 to str, but that's not necessarily too bad, and allows reflow of the PB chars' stats around it (dex & wis, mostly)...

My PC and Cohorts would have any un-bought-off LA on the Marshal/Legendary Leader side of the Gestalt, so PC is at full, Cohorts at LA 1 until 9th.[/Edit]


Having undead followers is why I have L. of the Dead on my char and my Cohorts over 6th level; it boosts Turn resistance for the character, and also bolsters Turn Resistance for 'Undead allies within 30 feet...'

I, uh... hm. Had an oversight. Sure, go ahead with undead followers under normal leadership. Necropolitan usually costs a life level, but that gets confusing, so I'll just skip over even thinking about that part for sanity's sake.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 05:52:39 PM by Drammor »
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Online Maelphaxerazz

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2017, 06:12:58 PM »
Semi-relatedly, what are you guys planning to do for healing? Leave it up to the bard?
Healer is considered Tier 5, and thus can be taken by followers. Thus, our followers can take care of healing.

EDIT: also, it looks like many of us might be undead, in which case the necromancer takes care of healing.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 06:15:55 PM by Maelphaxerazz »

Offline ketaro

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2017, 06:22:17 PM »
Just have a cadre of orcs for medical purposes!

And considering a bard/warlock cohort.

We can have our equipment crafted pregame?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 06:24:06 PM by ketaro »

Offline Drammor

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2017, 06:26:41 PM »
You can craft gear pre-game. I was just working on that for the NPCs, as it happens. :banghead
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.