Author Topic: Spellless Revised Ranger Dip for an archery Fighter (Superiority Dice Cheese)  (Read 780 times)

Offline Kasz

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So I was playing around with a build idea. An archery focused fighter that could play sniper but still fight up close and personal.

So Fighter 3/Ranger 2 (I think the optimal order would be Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Fighter X).

This was something I looked at to get both the archery fighting style and the close quarters shooter for a total of +3 to hit and the ability to use a bow in melee. Then I realised if you're going to take ranger levels obviously take revised ranger which gives things like advantage on enemies who haven't acted in the initiative and advantage on initiative.

Then I thought you'd obviously want sharpshooter to play sniper and you already have a healthy bonus to hit, and advantage a lot of the time, making the -5,+10 a solid chance.

Now the revised ranger could get you a couple spells, but coupled with the Spellless Ranger from UA you could get four superiority dice and two maneuvres instead which is a much better deal... you get four die per short rest versus two spells per long rest.

This could allow you to play a champion or eldritch knight with superiority dice, or a battlemaster with 8d8 on a short rest and five maneuvers.

The second argument for battlemaster is that it grants improved superiority dice and does not specify that it only improves superiority dice granted by the class (I assume so it's open to improve the feat granted dice).

So by level five we have an archer, firing 400ft with advantage on targets that have not acted yet or in melee, one attack per round but with +3 (assuming 16 dex and -5 from sharpshooter via variant human) with the option of precise shot for when he doesn't have advantage or a damaging one for when he does as advantage makes you more likely to crit and double the d8. He only gets one attack per turn but can action surge on turn one for a second advantage shot, has a lot of dice to spend on parrying or evasive footwork if you want those sort of maneuvers.

The ultimate cheese for this build would be using two maneuvers on one attack as technically your maneuvers come from two different sources so you're only using one of each per attack... But this requires a super lenient DM.

Beyond level 5 the build just takes fighter levels and improves by making the action surge into some sort of opening advantage fuelled volley. At level 7 you can make four attacks on turn one with advantage and use a maneuver on every attack and still have half your superiority dice left.

Also those attacks are doing 1d8+1d8+14 damage, assuming you bump dex to 18 at level 6 and you take the -5 and use a damage maneuver because you have advantage. You can still use precision again plate armoured shield users and you can add cool effects like tripping, shoving (15 feet!), disarming, goading or fearing. Four people starting a fight prone for your barbarian is great... So is four people goaded who have disadvantage on attacks your front line.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 06:12:25 AM by Kasz »

Offline bruceleeroy

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Toss crossbow expert in there for another attack as a bonus action. Drops the damage dice and range a bit, but for most games i think the difference in range would go unnoticed.
Normally, I would be reading this, open the reply box, decide what I had to say didn't need said, and close out. But this is just too ridiculous.



Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Yeah Fighter 11 / SpL Ranger 2, but with a solid mixing with the later UA update, would be pretty dangerous.
Perhaps finish wtf UA Rogue that gets sneak without needing Flank.


... battlemaster is that it grants improved superiority dice and does not specify that it only improves superiority dice granted by the class (I assume so it's open to improve the feat granted dice).

... The ultimate cheese for this build would be using two maneuvers on one attack as technically your maneuvers come from two different sources so you're only using one of each per attack ...

Both are interesting ideas.
I could see how the 2nd idea could easily be true, but then blocks the 1st idea from happening.
The 1st idea involves a +1 which hardly breaks things.
The 2nd idea is almost certainly not r.a.i. , but c.o. has had that conversation before.

I'd guess it's probably worth arguing.
Homegame I'd let it happen and see how it goes.
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Offline Kasz

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Yeah Fighter 11 / SpL Ranger 2, but with a solid mixing with the later UA update, would be pretty dangerous.
Perhaps finish wtf UA Rogue that gets sneak without needing Flank.


... battlemaster is that it grants improved superiority dice and does not specify that it only improves superiority dice granted by the class (I assume so it's open to improve the feat granted dice).

... The ultimate cheese for this build would be using two maneuvers on one attack as technically your maneuvers come from two different sources so you're only using one of each per attack ...

Both are interesting ideas.
I could see how the 2nd idea could easily be true, but then blocks the 1st idea from happening.
The 1st idea involves a +1 which hardly breaks things.
The 2nd idea is almost certainly not r.a.i. , but c.o. has had that conversation before.

I'd guess it's probably worth arguing.
Homegame I'd let it happen and see how it goes.

I agree that 2. blocks 1. would be a pretty common interpretation and 1. would be much easier to get past a DM.

That's why I think 2. is way cheesier than 1.

Offline TenaciousJ

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Improved Combat Superiority is not written as a part of Combat Superiority, and as such it seems RAW to allow it to affect superiority dice from any source.  Crawford ruled that Improved Combat Superiority does not care about the source of the dice when he said it affected the d6 from Martial Adept.

I think you'd have a harder time making the claim the superiority dice come from two different sources with regard to whether you can use two maneuvers at once.  The sources are both called Combat Superiority and do the same thing except for gaining a different number of new maneuvers at different levels.

e: The Combat Superiority feature does not have its own mention of "when you hit an enemy with an attack" or any such procedural language for when to use the maneuvers.  The maneuvers themselves have the procedural language on when to use them.  No rules exist for knowing maneuvers from different sources, and considering the spell-less ranger features references the Battle Master list.  It would seem to follow that if you allowed a battlemaster/spell-less ranger to activate two maneuvers at once, you would have to allow the maneuvers granted by Martial Adept as a separate source too and allow circumstances for 3 maneuvers to land at once, since Martial Adept similarly lacks any sort of rules to say whether or not it's a different source.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 10:39:35 AM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline TenaciousJ

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From the guy who wrote the spell-less ranger: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/10/28/spell-less-ranger-superiority-dice/
Quote
...my call would be to allow them to stack
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Ah yes, all those tweet-ratas I've fallen behind on. (wink)

So idea 1 stacks no problem, idea 2 is nyet.
avatar#3 , gravitational lensing edition ... I'm way on the other side of the universe but look like pretty rings