Author Topic: Getting an Extended Persisted Spell turned into a touch reach Chained Spell  (Read 1907 times)

Offline Bill Bisco

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1. A Persistent Spell changes a Personal or Fixed Range spell's Duration to 24 hours.  A persisted spell can then benefit from Extend Spell which will raise the spell's duration to 48 hours. 

So say for example an Extended Persisted Divine Favor would normally take up an 8th level slot (1+6+1).

Under Share Spells for Familiars and Animal Companions it states something like the following:

"Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself."

2. So, our character can cast their Extended Persisted Divine Favor as a touch spell on their familiar / animal companion. 

There is also the reach spell feat which states:  "You may cast a spell that normally has a range of touch at any distance up to 30 feet. The spell effectively becomes a ray"

3. Some might get tripped up on the word normally, but in context I think it just means that the spell is no longer a touch spell.  We can now cast an Extended Persistent Divine Favor at a range of 30 feet for our familiar / animal companion.

Then we have chain spell which states:

Any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch can be chained so as to affect that primary target normally, then arc to a number of secondary targets equal to your caster level (maximum 20). Each arc affects one secondary target chosen by you, all of which must be within 30 feet of the primary target,

4.  Divine Favor does have a single target, You, (or familiar/animal companion if you think it changes) and because of Reach Spell, the range is greater than touch.  So, this spell should now be eligible for Chain Spell yes?


Additional Thoughts:  I could be persuaded that even with the appropriate spell slots, a Chain Spell Reach Extended Persisted Divine Favor could not be prepared because you can't memorize A Reach Extended Persisted Divine Favor because Divine Favor is a Personal Range spell that only becomes touch the moment you use Share Spell on your familiar / animal companion. 

However, You should be able to spontaneously use abilities or items that apply those feats in the moment.  For example, one should be able to Apply Reach Spell and Chain Spell Spontaneousy through abilities or items.  So for example, with our Extended Persisted Divine Favor that is turned into a touch spell could be instantly modified using Divine Metamagic: reach spell and a metamagic rod of Chain spell.

Main problems occur because of these texts:

Regardless, you may activate only one divine feat (or use the ability to turn orrebuke undead once) per round, though overlapping durations may allow you the benefits of more than one divine feat at a time (Complete Divine page 77)

A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast

So we want to apply 4 metamagic feats to a spell, but we can only use Divine Feats for one of them and a Metamagic Rod for one of them which leaves 2 feats that need reduced and/or instant application that can't come from a divine feat or a metamagic Rod. 

Things Like Anima Mage could do a little bit, but that's not ideal with Divine Metamagic obviously.

Any ideas or thoughts on this proposal?

Offline ketaro

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You solve all your problems by being a spontaneous divine caster.

Offline Kethrian

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When chaining, you still can only pick valid targets, which is essentially still just the caster ("you"), and anything that counts as "you" (familiars).  So it still won't let you buff your friends.
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Offline altpersona

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When chaining, you still can only pick valid targets, which is essentially still just the caster ("you"), and anything that counts as "you" (familiars).  So it still won't let you buff your friends.

going to need more familiars...
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Offline Bill Bisco

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When chaining, you still can only pick valid targets, which is essentially still just the caster ("you"), and anything that counts as "you" (familiars).  So it still won't let you buff your friends.

I agree that the primary target must be a familiar / Animal Companion but the the text states that the spell then arcs to a number of secondary targets.

The text does not state any restrictions on choosing secondary targets.  An interesting comparison over specified targets is Command undead: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm

The target line says 1 undead creature but that has more to do with the spell effect which only affects undead.  You might cast command undead on an illusion or a person disguised as an undead.  I don't think the game universe tells you that a creature is undead or not for sure when you try think cast command undead.

With command undead of course, if you did manage to get the spell on a non undead it would not do anything due to the spell description.  The case is not the same for our familiared reach chain spell.  The spell description has no familiar specific requirements. 

Any reason someone could not ready an action to stand in the way between a reach spell being cast between a master and familiar and be affected by the spell?

Offline Kethrian

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There is nothing in the rules which prevent you from picking invalid targets.  You can choose unwilling creatures as targets of a spell which has Target: Willing Creature, it simply won't affect them.  Also,

Quote from: Rules Compendium p. 134
Creatures in the spell’s area that aren’t of the appropriate type don’t count against the creatures affected.

So, quite clearly, a spell will ignore and have no effect upon any invalid target(s).
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Kind of only read the title rather than the long paragraphs. But a Minor Schema of Metamagic Item can apply the benefits of Persist Spell to any Spell Trigger item, like a Wand or Staff for several rounds. It means, for an example to buff an entire party of four people to simultaneously benefit from Greater Blink it costs around 6,873gp per person per twelve days or so using a Staff with a 5/1/1 for Spell Levels @CL9. And 1,600gp/person of that is the initial Schema purchase which will not need to be renewed, ever.

The years of listening to class vs class fights and arguing how to rank classes has blinded you all from the possibilities of anyone simply buying magic spells to use or how team dynamics means only one guy needs to take Persist Spell to begin with.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 03:53:51 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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There are easier ways to swap persisted spells. Touching a persisted spell has its own problems.

Extend+persist is harder than you think since metamagic is applied simultaneously.

Lastly if you're going to break share spells, there are better ways to do it. Yes, its core. No, that doesn't mean its not broken.

Offline Tshern

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Depends on the spells you want to use, but for some you can fiddle around with Spellguard of the Silvery Moon and Ocular Spell.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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An Incantatrix 3 / Arcane Archer 2 with a Splitting Bow also can shoot two allies with area buff. This works with stuff like Snowsong, Positive Energy Aura, Aura of Terror, or even Interfaith Blessing, through several of the Spells listed are Divine-based but eh. Don't forget Persist applies to anything with a fixed range as well.

Offline Tshern

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An Incantatrix 3 / Arcane Archer 2 with a Splitting Bow also can shoot two allies with area buff. This works with stuff like Snowsong, Positive Energy Aura, Aura of Terror, or even Interfaith Blessing, through several of the Spells listed are Divine-based but eh. Don't forget Persist applies to anything with a fixed range as well.
Some limitations may apply.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Some limitations may apply.
It's kind of the same with everything else too. Ocular Spell does not work with Personal Spells and Spellguard only changes specific Personal Spells to Touch. So for example, neither one of those allow a Wizard/Incantatrix to share an Persisted Admixture Storm Lord.

If you get into metamagic chaining you can do a bit more with those classes, just as you can use metamagics with the Arcane Archer.

Offline Tshern

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Some limitations may apply.
It's kind of the same with everything else too. Ocular Spell does not work with Personal Spells and Spellguard only changes specific Personal Spells to Touch. So for example, neither one of those allow a Wizard/Incantatrix to share an Persisted Admixture Storm Lord.

If you get into metamagic chaining you can do a bit more with those classes, just as you can use metamagics with the Arcane Archer.
But the spells Spellguards can alter become eligible for Ocular spell. What I meant with my earlier comment was that instantaneous spells or ones you can discharge are not immune to Persistent spell shenanigans. And to be fair, the Spellguard list is quite limited, since (unless my memory fails me) it's for arcane spells only and you have get AC/save bonus/temp HP from it. Just spitballing, is all.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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What I meant with my earlier comment was that instantaneous spells or ones you can discharge are not immune to Persistent spell shenanigans.
Ahh I thought you were like the Archer doesn't work with all Persist-eligible, about everything has some kind of limit.

Even the methods of reducing Persist costs have their own pros and cons. Schemas require gold, Spelldancer can't do Evocation, Incantatrix is a little more Wizard friendly than Sorcerer as the DC gets into the 60+ range, Tainted requires using Player-raping rules, and Arcane Thesis works with only a single Spell. But you get the pay off of some of the most powerful traits in the game, and you can stack them like crazy.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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instantaneous spells or ones you can discharge are not immune to Persistent spell shenanigans.
That depends on your interpretation of if the printed labeling defines the type of spell or if the practical values do.

Interpretation A) A spell with a line item of "instantaneous" has the line item overwritten by a duration change, making it no longer an instantaneous spell. Thus persist might now work.
Or, B) A spell with a line item of "instantaneous" may have the duration altered, but the line item stays. It is and will forever be an "instantaneous" spell even while it currently counts as something else. Since the spell is an instantaneous spell, persist won't work with it.

Which of these two valid positions your DM takes can change depending on the individual. But its pretty clear which of the two is more balanced. This ambiguity could go away if, like Magic the Gathering, one bit of ability text can actually alter another bit of text in a metagame way (like how errata does, but think temporary or conditional ... and in-game).

Offline SorO_Lost

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What I meant with my earlier comment was that instantaneous spells or ones you can discharge are not immune to Persistent spell shenanigans.
That depends on your interpretation of if the printed labeling defines the type of spell or if the practical values do.
Huh?
Quote from: Player's Guide to Faerun
A persistent spell has a duration of 24 hours. The persistent spell must have a personal range or fixed range (for example, comprehend languages or detect magic). Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You need not concentrate on spells such as detect magic or detect thoughts to be aware of the mere presence or absence of the thing detected, but you must still concentrate to gain additional information as normal. Concentration on such a spell is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell's actual level.
Here, we can even use Complete Arcane's too.
Quote from: Complete Arcane
Spells with a fixed or personal range can have their duration increased to 24 hours. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You don't need to maintain concentration on persistent detect spells (such as detect magic or detect thoughts) for you to be aware of the mere presence or absence of the subject detected, but gaining additional information requires concentration as normal. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell's actual level.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 03:39:27 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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What I meant with my earlier comment was that instantaneous spells or ones you can discharge are not immune to Persistent spell shenanigans.
That depends on your interpretation of if the printed labeling defines the type of spell or if the practical values do.
Huh?
My bolding and coloring. I agree that every spell that goes "pop" and ends early (or is printed with the word "discharged") cannot be persisted.

Tshern was saying that various other shenanigans would get around that. Presumably he thought that changing the duration of a spell made it no longer considered a dischargable spell (correct me if I'm wrong). I was explaining why I thought that idea was a little abusive: because even if you change the duration, the spell's duration text line might still disqualify the spell. It's being a bit of a stickler, but it does help balance.

Offline billbisco

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Re: Getting an Extended Persisted Spell turned into a touch reach Chained Spell
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2019, 04:53:26 PM »
Ok,  so what I'm getting general consensus is that with the Familiar Share Spells ability, the Target would just change from "You" to "Familiar".   As such, even if the caster did reach spell and chain spell on such a "Shared" Spell, it would make no difference if it hit non-familiars, since only valid targets will be affected by the spell.

However, using Spellguard from Spellguard of Silvermoon WILL WORK WITH THIS TRICK!

If the Spellguard utilizes Magic of the Land feat and an Acorn of Far Travel, they can cast non-alignment non-Necromancy spells that will count as in forested terrain which meets the requirements for Magic of the Land.  Magic of the Land will heal targets hit points and as such will make all spells cast through the Spellguard ability count as defensive spells.