Author Topic: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?  (Read 4519 times)

Offline Nifft

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2017, 12:09:39 AM »
You're trying to nitpick, but you're not reading the actual text. Thus you're making stuff up and then trying to rules-lawyer based on your own inventions.
lmgtfy link to something that isn't even an argument, nor support for an argument
Fixed for accuracy.

If you ever feel like having a grown-up conversation, just present an argument, and we can talk through it.

This sort of theatrics isn't useful, and it's certainly not a counter-argument. I'm not even mad, it's just getting kinda tiresome to go through the motions & find any nugget of meaning in your posts.


That...seems rather straightforward to me. Unless something somewhere says a spontaneous caster can cast a 2nd level spell without having a CL of 4+ for 2nd level spells then that quote is actually saying "CL 4 required", no?

Apparently not.

Official feats like Shadow Weave Magic (PGtF) allow you to lower your caster level by -1 for specific schools, and only casting with caster level 0 is prohibited:

Quote from: PGtF
The Shadow Weave proves less than optimal for effects involving energy or matter. Your effective caster level for spells you cast from the schools of evocation or transmutation (except spells with the darkness descriptor) is reduced by one. A 1st-level Shadow Weave user cannot cast spells from these schools at all.

Thus a Wizard with Shadow Weave Magic could cast 2nd level spells at caster level 2. This directly contradicts the argument.

Feats like Mage Slayer (CArc) allow you to lower your caster level by -4 for all spells, and for this chain of feats there's no stipulation preventing you from casting at a caster level that's 0 or even negative.


Finally, check the text for the Sorcerer class spell acquisition. There's no special language which allows a level 3 Sorcerer who moves up to level 4 to actually learn a new level of spell. Here's the full text:

Quote from: SRD
Spells

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.

Note how there's nothing which would allow you to learn a new level of spells.

If the opposing argument had any validity, it would apply equally to the SRD Sorcerer class itself -- and would render the class unplayable.

This is an absurd result. Therefore, the argument cannot be valid.

Offline ketaro

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2017, 01:08:30 AM »
Hmm.....funky....

Looking around for stuff about minimum caster level to cast shit is funky. Cause CLs are all over the place for spells levels all over. Like some one point out Ur Priests cast 9th level spells with only a CL of 9. Or Chameleons casting 1st & 2nd lvl spells with a CL of 2. Warlocks don't even need a caster level........ahmm...Which makes the only hard rules on the matter being in the Crafting Magic Items rules, but those are funky too like some items have CLs higher than the minimum but not being able to be made at their supplied spell's minimum (Bottle of Air).

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2017, 01:11:51 AM »
Hmm.....funky....

Looking around for stuff about minimum caster level to cast shit is funky. Cause CLs are all over the place for spells levels all over. Like some one point out Ur Priests cast 9th level spells with only a CL of 9. Or Chameleons casting 1st & 2nd lvl spells with a CL of 2. Warlocks don't even need a caster level........ahmm...Which makes the only hard rules on the matter being in the Crafting Magic Items rules, but those are funky too like some items have CLs higher than the minimum but not being able to be made at their supplied spell's minimum (Bottle of Air).

Such things are the issue. Unless there's a hard and fast rule on CL requirements laid down somewhere, then it goes back to the semantic argument. Nothing in that argument specifically prohibits getting a spell known at a level you otherwise don't have access to--and Versatile Spellcaster then skips the slot requirement. So without an explicit quote that would negate those, this will work.

And an explicit quote would be nice, or at least a page number.
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Offline Nifft

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2017, 02:14:01 AM »
So... a Duskblade takes Scribe Scroll at level 1, and Mage Slayer at level 3.

Now she can scribe scrolls with a caster level of -1.

Each scroll scribed has a negative cost, and therefore earns her arbitrary gold and XP.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2017, 12:02:31 PM »
Normally, it's just tied to the spells you have access to. Or rather--in the magic item rules somewhere, but I don't know which book to check for that bit.
Those rules are in the DMG/SRD which is where magical item rules are detailed. And maybe in the MiC given it's topic, and probably also scattered around in supplements that introduce new crafting methods since they would also have rules on magical items.

Like a quick grab from Scrolls & the first example in crafting
Quote
For example, a 10th-level cleric might want to create a cure critical wounds scroll (cleric 4th btw) at caster level 10th rather than the minimum for the spell (caster level 7th), in order to get more benefit from the scroll spell. (This scroll would, however, be more costly to scribe.)

While item creation costs are handled in detail elsewhere, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. For example, a 15th-level wizard could craft a wand of fireball (wizard 3rd btw) at 10th caster level, or even as low as 5th level (the minimum caster level for fireball, a 3rd-level spell), but no lower.

And as always, you should check the FAQ to see if your questions have been answered before.
Quote
Is it possible to cast the permanency spell from a scroll? If so, who pays the XP cost for the spell effect made permanent: the scroll creator or the individual who casts the spell from the scroll? Who must meet the minimum level requirement for making a particular spell permanent? For example, see invisibility has a minimum level of 10th. Does the scroll creator or the individual who casts the spell from the scroll have to meet this minimum? Does the minimum level refer to arcane spellcaster’s caster level or character level?
In general, when you create a scroll with a spell that has an XP cost, you have to pay the XP cost for casting the spell along with the costs for creating the scroll (see Creating Scrolls in Chapter 7 of the DMG). Since the creator has paid all the costs, the scroll user doesn’t have to pay them. In the case of the permanency spell, however, it’s best to make the scroll user pay the cost of actually making a particular spell’s effect permanent. The scroll creator still pays the XP cost to make the scroll. You must use the spell’s caster level to determine if the spell meets the minimum level to make a spell permanent. In the case of a character casting a spell herself, the spell’s caster level is the caster’s class level in the class that made the spell available in the first place. For example, when a 12th-level wizard/3rd level fighter casts any wizard spell, the spell’s caster level is 12th. In the case of a spell cast from a scroll, the spell’s caster level is the scroll’s caster level. The scroll’s creator sets the caster level for the scroll when making the scroll, as noted in the Magic Item Descriptions section of Chapter 7 of the DMG.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 12:11:06 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2017, 12:07:27 PM »
So, technically, we've changed the problem to "get a Sorcerer at CL 3". Since CL3 would be the minimum for a 2nd level spell, weirdness of sorcerer progression aside. Woo, one whole level saved. It's something.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2017, 12:09:36 PM »
So, technically, we've changed the problem to "get a Sorcerer at CL 3". Since CL3 would be the minimum for a 2nd level spell, weirdness of sorcerer progression aside. Woo, one whole level saved. It's something.
No, check my edit. I added the entry in the FAQ that tried it to the Class rather than using the generic Wizard/Cleric progression.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2017, 12:12:40 PM »
So, technically, we've changed the problem to "get a Sorcerer at CL 3". Since CL3 would be the minimum for a 2nd level spell, weirdness of sorcerer progression aside. Woo, one whole level saved. It's something.
No, check my edit. I added the entry in the FAQ that tried it to the Class rather than using the generic Wizard/Cleric progression.

If anything, that looks like it's ruling out having a spell from one class and using the caster level from another class to cast it. In amongst going on about scrolls and permanency.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2017, 12:17:27 PM »
And as always, you should check the FAQ to see if your questions have been answered before.
Quote
You must use the spell’s caster level to determine if the spell meets the minimum level to make a spell permanent. In the case of a character casting a spell herself, the spell’s caster level is the caster’s class level in the class that made the spell available in the first place.
If anything, that looks like it's ruling out having a spell from one class and using the caster level from another class to cast it. In amongst going on about scrolls and permanency.
Annnnd just like that the educational moment was totally ruined by implying something in the rules doesn't matter to you.

Fun discussion, I look forward to the next ones that undoubtedly will come and never end.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2017, 12:22:16 PM »
Because Permanency uses the caster level being cast not the minimum caster level of the spell. These are, quite obviously, different things. Great job making more assumptions, though.

This doesn't seem like a particularly good trick, since even with that logic it's sketchy as fuck and only cuts off one level, but it's something.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2017, 12:42:26 PM »
Because Permanency uses the caster level being cast not the minimum caster level of the spell. These are, quite obviously, different things. Great job making more assumptions, though.
Actually the question is about Scrolls and the answer talks about the costs needed to make the Scrolls but I'm not even slightly surprised you didn't read it before claiming someone else assumed something.

This doesn't seem like a particularly good trick, since even with that logic it's sketchy as fuck and only cuts off one level, but it's something.
You'll admit it's sketchy as fuck and trivialize it's value but simultaneously you see so much value in it that you fell you need to march out and defend the non-existing guy playing a Sorcerer dumb enough to take Magic Item Creation Feats.  :eh

I now can see how Agita was right about getting off topic...

Offline Nifft

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2017, 02:20:09 PM »
Normally, it's just tied to the spells you have access to. Or rather--in the magic item rules somewhere, but I don't know which book to check for that bit.
Those rules are in the DMG/SRD which is where magical item rules are detailed. And maybe in the MiC given it's topic, and probably also scattered around in supplements that introduce new crafting methods since they would also have rules on magical items.

Like a quick grab from Scrolls & the first example in crafting
Quote
For example, a 10th-level cleric might want to create a cure critical wounds scroll (cleric 4th btw) at caster level 10th rather than the minimum for the spell (caster level 7th), in order to get more benefit from the scroll spell. (This scroll would, however, be more costly to scribe.)

While item creation costs are handled in detail elsewhere, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. For example, a 15th-level wizard could craft a wand of fireball (wizard 3rd btw) at 10th caster level, or even as low as 5th level (the minimum caster level for fireball, a 3rd-level spell), but no lower.

And as always, you should check the FAQ to see if your questions have been answered before.
Quote
Is it possible to cast the permanency spell from a scroll? If so, who pays the XP cost for the spell effect made permanent: the scroll creator or the individual who casts the spell from the scroll? Who must meet the minimum level requirement for making a particular spell permanent? For example, see invisibility has a minimum level of 10th. Does the scroll creator or the individual who casts the spell from the scroll have to meet this minimum? Does the minimum level refer to arcane spellcaster’s caster level or character level?
In general, when you create a scroll with a spell that has an XP cost, you have to pay the XP cost for casting the spell along with the costs for creating the scroll (see Creating Scrolls in Chapter 7 of the DMG). Since the creator has paid all the costs, the scroll user doesn’t have to pay them. In the case of the permanency spell, however, it’s best to make the scroll user pay the cost of actually making a particular spell’s effect permanent. The scroll creator still pays the XP cost to make the scroll. You must use the spell’s caster level to determine if the spell meets the minimum level to make a spell permanent. In the case of a character casting a spell herself, the spell’s caster level is the caster’s class level in the class that made the spell available in the first place. For example, when a 12th-level wizard/3rd level fighter casts any wizard spell, the spell’s caster level is 12th. In the case of a spell cast from a scroll, the spell’s caster level is the scroll’s caster level. The scroll’s creator sets the caster level for the scroll when making the scroll, as noted in the Magic Item Descriptions section of Chapter 7 of the DMG.

Wait a sec.

You're currently suggesting that we use a FAQ entry which blatantly contradicts the rules as the basis for inferring an unstated rule.

That's a terrible idea for at least two obvious reasons, and I bet there's a third.

It's also purely about interactions of magic items, and not a rule about spellcasting.

Because Permanency uses the caster level being cast not the minimum caster level of the spell. These are, quite obviously, different things. Great job making more assumptions, though.
Actually the question is about Scrolls and the answer talks about the costs needed to make the Scrolls but I'm not even slightly surprised you didn't read it before claiming someone else assumed something.

I'm just gonna remind you that a mod had pre-emptively warned you about this incivility thing.

It's your call whether you listen to the mod, but, dude... just because you're wrong about this, that's no reason to flame out.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2017, 02:27:24 PM »
Because Permanency uses the caster level being cast not the minimum caster level of the spell. These are, quite obviously, different things. Great job making more assumptions, though.
Actually the question is about Scrolls and the answer talks about the costs needed to make the Scrolls but I'm not even slightly surprised you didn't read it before claiming someone else assumed something.

The scroll cost is beside the point to the Caster Level discussion as nobody is trying to make a permanencied scroll here. The FAQ entry is only relevant to the caster level point, but since it's going on about the CL of a spell based on whether it's being cast from a scroll or not, it doesn't seem to address the point about defining the minimum CL for a spell explicitly rather than implicitly.

Quote
This doesn't seem like a particularly good trick, since even with that logic it's sketchy as fuck and only cuts off one level, but it's something.
You'll admit it's sketchy as fuck and trivialize it's value but simultaneously you see so much value in it that you fell you need to march out and defend the non-existing guy playing a Sorcerer dumb enough to take Magic Item Creation Feats.  :eh

Nobody was talking about item creation. That's all on you.
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2017, 12:06:48 AM »
First of all, Nifft, you are doing a wonderful job of trying to keep the posting on topic, with concise rules quotes. So I commend your cat-herding instincts.

You're currently suggesting that we use a FAQ entry which blatantly contradicts the rules as the basis for inferring an unstated rule.
SORO TRIGGER WARNING! SORO TRIGGER WARNING!   :P What do I know; maybe he'll let it go this time. He certainly made a strange entrance already.

To be useful without reading all the ... back and forth ... a nice list might help. Who wants to fill in every single requirement with rules quotes? I seem to recall we collectively failed this task when I asked for it years ago. Yes, I know that the casting rules are a mess and are everywhere ( :shakefist), but I'll start:

0) Let's just ignore the minimizing CL tricks for now. They tend to get people excited when someone innocently asks if the below as precedence or not when there seems to be a way to take a CL penalty (like the mage slayer feat line)
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2017, 02:09:23 AM »
What do I know; maybe he'll let it go this time.
Seeing how a certain someone already sold them selves as unmovable on the topic, yeah not really bothered.

My current theory on things is that it starts off with the self-conceited thought that they alone have "discovered" something tens of thousands of people have missed rather than passed on for knowing better or even argued before. Since they have everything to prove and it needs to work because it's "theirs" what often ends up being debated isn't the rules' meaning or indications but someone's personal nonacceptance of them. Using this thread as an example, Nfft didn't know about minimum caster levels. He's probably never even seen the the contextual examples published in the actual rules (the srd is just a convent reference) and FAQ quantifying statements of them before. Worse, seeing the actual rules state to even be able to make the decision to cast a Spell one of the things needed is the appropriate Slot and Nfft's even already conceded that VS doesn't grant that. From my prospective, his entire argument is built on ignorance on what I consider to be some of the most basic parts of the rule system but here in this thread he has argued he is right because he thinks he is and because he needs to be or this thread is pointless and he was wrong. And RD... I'm pretty sure I'm not qualified to even begin on that.

And that's also why these types of "discovery" can quickly turn heated. Ad hominem attacks simply make them feel better about them selves by devaluing the other guy's worth because that's truly what's being debated. And that coincidentally comes full circle through it's own perpetuation which just makes it a breeding ground for problems.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 02:30:23 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Keldar

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2017, 09:44:13 AM »
Caster Level
Quote from: PHB p152
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be basted on the same caster level.  For Example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast fireball to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage.  If she wishes, she can cast fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected caster level, and she can't cast fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball)  Hennet, a sorcerer can't cast fireball with a caster level lower than 6th (the minimum level required for a sorcerer to cast fireball.)
Is it necessary I dig up the rules that you can only learn spells you can cast as well?  (It would have been nice if the casting rules hadn't been smeared across the book like butter across too much bread.  We'd probably have gotten less of this type over the past 17 years.  And if the glossary had stuck around past the first printing.)

Sorcerers need CL 4 to cast 2nd level spells.  You need a CL boost for the worm to give you the spell known.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2017, 09:47:34 AM »
Caster Level
Quote from: PHB p152
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be basted on the same caster level.  For Example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast fireball to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage.  If she wishes, she can cast fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected caster level, and she can't cast fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball)  Hennet, a sorcerer can't cast fireball with a caster level lower than 6th (the minimum level required for a sorcerer to cast fireball.)
Is it necessary I dig up the rules that you can only learn spells you can cast as well?  (It would have been nice if the casting rules hadn't been smeared across the book like butter across too much bread.  We'd probably have gotten less of this type over the past 17 years.  And if the glossary had stuck around past the first printing.)

Sorcerers need CL 4 to cast 2nd level spells.  You need a CL boost for the worm to give you the spell known.

Ah, thank you, something that wasn't for some reason being drawn from the magic item rules.
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Offline Nifft

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2017, 02:28:42 PM »
Caster Level
Quote from: PHB p152
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be basted on the same caster level.  For Example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast fireball to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage.  If she wishes, she can cast fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected caster level, and she can't cast fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball)  Hennet, a sorcerer can't cast fireball with a caster level lower than 6th (the minimum level required for a sorcerer to cast fireball.)
Is it necessary I dig up the rules that you can only learn spells you can cast as well?  (It would have been nice if the casting rules hadn't been smeared across the book like butter across too much bread.  We'd probably have gotten less of this type over the past 17 years.  And if the glossary had stuck around past the first printing.)

Sorcerers need CL 4 to cast 2nd level spells.  You need a CL boost for the worm to give you the spell known.
Ah, nice.

Okay, that shuts down easy early-entry from this trick, pending caster level enhancement.

Looking at Precocious Apprentice, I see there's specific language about being able to cast a spell even if your caster level isn't high enough -- so that's a consistent result, at least.

How viable are the various caster level enhancers?

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2017, 04:15:47 PM »
How viable are the various caster level enhancers?
Depends on what you're interest in them is.

They should work with Spells given the fact that you can already modify it, at least through choice, but for Requirements?
Quote from: CAr
CASTER LEVEL
In the context of a feat or a prestige class requirement, a caster level prerequisite (such as “caster level 5th”) measures the character’s ability to channel a minimum amount of magical power. For feats or prestige classes requiring a minimum caster level, creatures that use spell-like abilities or invocations instead of spells use either their fixed caster level or their class level to determine qualification. For example, Craft Wondrous Item has a requirement of caster level 3rd, so both a 3rd-level warlock and a nixie (caster level 4th for its charm person spell-like ability) meet the requirement.
Typical "But that's not direct enough!" complaints aside, it's a precedent worth considering.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 06:13:44 PM by SorO_Lost »

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2017, 08:07:33 AM »
Maybe it's too early in the morning for me, but can't all this "you don't have the minimum caster level" issue be solved with a few dozen +1 Caster Level Ioun Stones?

The time I saw this trick used, it was a Druid (Who can spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Extremely Testy Beasts I thru IX) therefore can cast those spells if they can but find a spell slot high enough to ditch for said spell. And the way around the CL requirements was death knell and a bunch of summoned critters to murder to power said Death Knells. (I won't get into specifics of the "infinite +1CL loop" in question. The rest of it broke down, but This part seemed solid.)
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