Author Topic: How to price Powerstones with the Linked Metapower  (Read 242 times)

Offline Captnq

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How to price Powerstones with the Linked Metapower
« on: August 20, 2017, 06:06:57 PM »
Quote
With the right psionic item creation feat, you can store a metapsionic power in a power stone, psionic tattoo, or dorje. Level limits for psionic tattoos apply to the power’s higher metapsionic level. Thus, a 3rd-level power modified with the Empower Power feat could not be stored in a psionic tattoo, because the power would be equivalent to a 5th-level power for the purpose of limiting manifestation, and a psionic tattoo can hold a power of only up to 3rd level. A character doesn’t need the appropriate metapsionic feat to activate an item in which a metapsionic power is stored, but does need the metapsionic feat to create such an item.

Okay...

LINKED POWER [METAPSIONIC]
(click to show/hide)

Now then...

POWER STONES
(click to show/hide)

Now then. If I create a power stone with a 1st level power with a ML of 1, then use linked to add on a 9th level power that I create with a ML of 19, how do I price it?
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Offline Nifft

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Re: How to price Powerstones with the Linked Metapower
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2017, 09:16:44 PM »
Quote
With the right psionic item creation feat, you can store a metapsionic power in a power stone, psionic tattoo, or dorje. Level limits for psionic tattoos apply to the power’s higher metapsionic level. Thus, a 3rd-level power modified with the Empower Power feat could not be stored in a psionic tattoo, because the power would be equivalent to a 5th-level power for the purpose of limiting manifestation, and a psionic tattoo can hold a power of only up to 3rd level. A character doesn’t need the appropriate metapsionic feat to activate an item in which a metapsionic power is stored, but does need the metapsionic feat to create such an item.

Okay...

LINKED POWER [METAPSIONIC]
(click to show/hide)

Now then...

POWER STONES
(click to show/hide)

Now then. If I create a power stone with a 1st level power with a ML of 1, then use linked to add on a 9th level power that I create with a ML of 19, how do I price it?
Total power point expenditure = 1 + 19 = 20 pp

Minimum manifester level to manifest 20 pp => level 20.

Manifester level is 20.


But honestly, I wouldn't allow Linked Power as a [Metapsionic] feat. It should just be a [Psionic] feat -- expend focus, get "delay power".

The various cost-reduction abuses and level-ambiguity would be eliminated, while the core functionality would be expanded.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 09:21:13 PM by Nifft »

Offline Versatility_Nut

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Re: How to price Powerstones with the Linked Metapower
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2017, 03:30:35 AM »
But honestly, I wouldn't allow Linked Power as a [Metapsionic] feat. It should just be a [Psionic] feat -- expend focus, get "delay power".

The various cost-reduction abuses and level-ambiguity would be eliminated, while the core functionality would be expanded.
It would also give the Psychic Warrior a Nice Thing, because their bonus feats include Psionic, but not Metapsionic, feats. So they can make use of it to do stuff like have Vigor set to go off next round, after the current Vigor is actually done with. Doing it with actual healing instead makes them restore the health lost from damage overflow getting through Vigor, making them have closer to full, if not actually full, HP when they restore their Vigor.

Although Linked Metapower in a Powerstone does have shenanigans available, mostly regarding having a single activation pull a two-power combo. Like Energy Immunity and Widened Energy Ball, resulting in a sizable AoE that can safely include self, although that's a low-end use of it. More frequently, you'll get readily paired stuff, like Vigor-then-Body Adjustment. Or Inertial Armor-then-Thicken Skin, for more cost-effective AC bonuses.

Offline Captnq

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Re: How to price Powerstones with the Linked Metapower
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2017, 06:48:25 AM »
Minimum manifester level to manifest 20 pp => level 20.

Manifester level is 20.


But honestly, I wouldn't allow Linked Power as a [Metapsionic] feat. It should just be a [Psionic] feat -- expend focus, get "delay power".

The various cost-reduction abuses and level-ambiguity would be eliminated, while the core functionality would be expanded.

Unfortunately, I cannot change the RAW to suit my desires.
By RAW, Linked is metapsionic, like it or not.

And knowing just the ML level isn't enough, since it must be multiplied by the PL.
So if I use PL 1, it is PL 1x20?
Or is it PL 1 x ML 1 + ML 19 x PL 9?

I am assuming it is the later, because having investigated the pricing of Candle Caster Candles, when it comes to pricing the candles, you compute the items separately and add them.

But this is only the cost of creation.

Unfortunately, I do not believe that the candles follow the same rules for retail purposes. Alas, being a 3.0 PrC, it does not give the retail cost, but the creation cost. All other 3.5 items use the retail cost as the base for the GP and XP cost. One cannot simply multiple the base cost by 2 when it comes to caster candles, because if a Scribed Candle is basically a Scroll as a candle, then a Scribed Dipped Stripped candle, which is three spells in one candle, is the same value as the three spells as scrolls. Which is insane.

Who would not buy a few dozen candles that store three spells at once at the same cost as the scrolls individually.

Extrapolating what it would cost to make these same items as wondrous item, the pricing would be X1 for the scribed scroll itself, x1.5 for the Dipped, and x2 for the striped, if one follows the rules for adding additional powers to a single magic item. The x2 is quite clear from the DMG when you look at the striped candle converted to a wondrous item, so one assumes that the intermediate (dipped) would be 1.5.

Now, of course, this is only affects the retail cost of the dipped candle. The cost of creation would be unaffected, seeing that creating candles is a class feature, and thus it gets to ignore the usual rules for item creation. Regardless, I need to include some sort of interpretation for the sake of completeness.

I wanted to get people's opinions on the matter before I made a judgement call. I am going to assume that if you translate linked into a wondrous item version of a powerstone and use the additional powers rules from the DMG, then the more expensive of the two powers would be at an additional x1.5 cost to retail. However, unlike candle caster, the creator would NOT have the discount that candle caster enjoys for creating candles. Point being, imprint stone is an item creation feat, and candle creation is a varient of Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion (for unfettered), and while it is "Effectively" brew potion for intents and purposes, it is not brew potion for the sake of being a feat. It is a class feature.

You may be wonder why one should care.

Because Candle caster (being looked at the party erudite) is technically worded to actually increase the manifester level of the erudite, the way it is worded (I use magic/psionic transparency)

Specially, I expect at some point, using this little gem:

CHAMELEON CRAFTING [ITEM CREATION]
- DRAGON #349 (3.5)
(click to show/hide)

I can look forward to a Scribed (two spells linked), Dipped (Two Spells Linked), Striped (Two Spells Linked) candle that allows him to basically get off celerity 6 times in one round.

While most people must deal with the one round delay, quick light allows the candle caster to get away with same round activation. So, he's get 4 extra actions round one, and 2 extra round two, which with the penalties to celerity, he may not wish to do that. I have made it quite clear that if you DO manage to get off multiple celerity, you will pay the cost sequentially, not concurrently. So, He'll get off 6 actions, then basically slow to a crawl. Yes, there are ways to undo conditions, He will have to do it for every single time. It will more than likely cost him his 2 one round delayed extra actions. We are still arguing over the math.

Note, he is also looking at War weaver, which I have rules psionics does not work over, but currently we are arguing about "does linked allow him to add a power to a spell that is hung in the war weaver web?" He has made a good case and I am thinking of allowing it. On the other hand, he's an erudite, spell transparency, yada yada. I may just let him use psionics over it anyways, just to see how much he can abuse the rules. Would make for an interesting case study.

BTW, Discovering Erudites kinda suck. Yes, it looks amazing, but in practice, they are a bitch, even if you play in a Magic Mart world. At low levels, even with getting around the uses per day limitations using scroll and power stone attunement, The player was actually forced to fall back on wands quite frequently. And that whole "XP is a river" thing apparently is quite shallow when it comes to Erudites. I think the player has been consistently 2 levels behind everyone else for months now.

I have rambled enough. I think I will be going with x1.5 retail cost for the more expensive of the two powers, if linked together. It is the cost for making two spells in such a fashion using wondrous item, so it's consistent. I could make a case for x2 and x3 however.

------

Now here:

ADDING NEW ABILITIES
(click to show/hide)

You would think it would be x1.5 for the second spell. Then the third spell, being a spell on top of a spell (following additive multipliers rules) would be 1.5 + .5 or x2.

However under the chart:

Multiple different abilities: Multiply higher item cost by 2.

So, one could argue, it's lowest costing spell x1, second most expensive spell x2, and then the third, being a spell on a spell, is x3.

However, I figured I was already boning anyone who wanted to buy a Candle (Scroll/Potion) with x1.5/x2 when you got the combination, the (x2/x3) seemed over kill.

Or I could just make it a flat x2, x2, but I figured that since one comes with a 1 round delay, on top of the one round delay for a basic scribed candle (Scribed Dipped, to be exact), and stripped has NO round delay for the second spell, X1.5/x2 for dipped/striped seemed fair and consistent with RAW as close as I can determine.

And since linked follows the one round delay of the Scribed Dipped candle, it seems to be close enough for government work. Of course that would mean:

Scribed (x1) Linked (x1.5)
Dipped (x1.5) Linked (x2)
Striped (x2) Linked (x2.5)

Since multipliers are additive. The other way would be

Scribed (x1) Linked (x2)
Dipped (x2) Linked (x3)
Striped (x3) Linked (x4)

Which, would be multiplied by x1.5 over all, because of the Chameleon Crafting cost of using metapsionics on spells manifested in a scroll variant.
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Offline Nifft

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Re: How to price Powerstones with the Linked Metapower
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2017, 03:24:50 PM »
I think it's actually (ML x PL) + (ML x PL) -- and your ML for the linked power is 20, not 1 or 19.

This interpretation comes from reading the power stone rules for imprinting multiple powers -- you pay for each one -- even though RAI those are set up to account for multiple separate powers.

When you make a Linked Power with a total of 20 pp, you're setting the manifester level for each power to 20.

That means RAW you'd pay:
((1 x 20) + (19 x 20)) x 12.5 gp


IMHO you should pay for powers based on the square of the pp expended -- basically ((pp +1)/2)^2 x 12.5 gp -- but that's a house rule and thus useless to you.

Offline Captnq

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Re: How to price Powerstones with the Linked Metapower
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2017, 10:44:45 PM »
I think it's actually (ML x PL) + (ML x PL) -- and your ML for the linked power is 20, not 1 or 19.

This interpretation comes from reading the power stone rules for imprinting multiple powers -- you pay for each one -- even though RAI those are set up to account for multiple separate powers.

When you make a Linked Power with a total of 20 pp, you're setting the manifester level for each power to 20.

That means RAW you'd pay:
((1 x 20) + (19 x 20)) x 12.5 gp


IMHO you should pay for powers based on the square of the pp expended -- basically ((pp +1)/2)^2 x 12.5 gp -- but that's a house rule and thus useless to you.

Hummm... You have a point. In the case of psionic powers, it would be based off of total PP spent, so for linking purposes, you pay the full PP for both powers. Yes. that makes sense.
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