Author Topic: A Min/Max Challenge  (Read 2890 times)

Offline Stratovarius

  • Forum Host
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6279
  • Arhosan Emperor
    • View Profile
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2017, 11:56:57 AM »
Actually, no I wouldn't, but thank you for putting words in my mouth because you were too unobservant & biased to see the data that counteracted it. You may have noticed that ubercharging was the first suggestion in this thread - and I said not a word against it. It's a valid optimization strategy and is indeed the expected one for creating a Scorpionfolk that can contribute at a table.

So, come back when you've got a valid argument.

Offline SorO_Lost

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6901
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
    • View Profile
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2017, 01:19:56 PM »
and I said not a word against it.
You mean other than calling it an improperly used mechanic?
it appears the only minmax option available is to either abuse leadership or ubercharging
You also thought using someone else entirely via Leadership is a valid option but accidentally dying, or fighting undead, or casting spells on your self is what again?
It does, however, sidestep the challenge, because you're no longer optimizing a Scorpionfolk
Kind of speaks for it's self don't it?

So, come back when you've got a valid argument.
That's the best rebuttal you could come up with?

You should have gone with this.
Quote from: SorO pretending to be a better Stratovarius posting a rebuttal to SorO's comments
SorO you should know better than to say something I disagree with and encourage me to do something useful with my time. Haven't you heard of this?
Quote from: The Backfire Effect
The Misconception: When your beliefs are challenged with facts, you alter your opinions and incorporate the new information into your thinking.
The Truth: When your deepest convictions are challenged by contradictory evidence, your beliefs get stronger.
Now I'm stuck pretending your comment doesn't matter for the rest of my life. Well if you'll excuse me, I need to create a thread called "min/max this human with sixteen levels in commoner" or "Sharn prove RHD don't always suck" since this is totally not about RHD/LA being terrible but the first of my GitP-like Iron Chief optimization threads.
And to that I say: Cool, Leadership & Charging are not the only answers. There are several, and I kind of already wrote a guide on just a couple of them.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 03:29:42 PM by SorO_Lost »
Would you die if you jumped from my perceived ego to your IQ? - Is 15secs of confirmation bias a goal post worth arguing for? - Ever asked a "victim" what they did to deserve it? - Are the words teen, SJW, & liberal synonyms? - "Only Sith deals in absolutes" contains a misspelled word.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7324
  • (un-) Amazingly Unproductive
    • View Profile
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2017, 04:25:31 PM »
 :hide


so, 12 class levels for the +4la +12rhd = ecl 26.
Perhaps going the other way can work.

Throw in Half Minotaur and Half Ogre for +5la.
Need to drop 1 rhd , which can happen via a
Savage Species style racial progression.

It'd be a small handwave, but we can be almost
entirely sure it's 1 rhd (=1ecl?) which is easy to do.
Hold off on what class ability for a moment.

Next add in a Major Bloodline, which fits, but
puts a small exp hinky into the middle.  Now it
needs to be down another ecl, which might be
a +1LA or another 1rhd.  BUT bloodline levels
would boost back anything numbers reduced.

Result = 10rhd +5la +3 bloodline levels, almost
all of  the racial prog minus a smidge, down 1hd feat,
up 2 flaw feats + 5 bloodline feats = +6 feats total,
massive str boost, combined with an "18" in point buy. 
Minor dose of exp available for various uses.

-1 or -2 down on the PHB2 gear bonus schedule, hurts a bit.
Use some of the gear + feats, to get some of the post 2013
Monk-style power-up going.

avatar#3 , gravitational lensing edition ... I'm way on the other side of the universe but look like pretty rings

Offline Endarire

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1558
  • Smile! Jesus loves you!
    • View Profile
    • Greg Campbell's Portfolio
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2017, 11:22:54 PM »
Can you use Savage Species rituals to turn yourself into something more useful, like via wishing?

Offline Nifft

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 318
  • Bad At Lurking
    • View Profile
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2017, 12:38:33 PM »
RHD don't count as "class levels" for LA Buy-off.  :poke

Did you think someone suggested that?

You know the monster entry has 12 RHD and LA +4, right?

I think his point is that the 12 RHD can't be used as levels to buy off the LA.

 Per the SRD, "For instance, a gnoll's level adjustment is +1. When a gnoll character gains his third class level (remember, the gnoll's 2 starting Hit Dice don't count), he can pay an XP cost to reduce his level adjustment to +0".

Huh, it does say that:

Quote from: SRD
Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

Welp, I guess RHD are even worse than they'd previously appeared.

Offline Surreal

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • the former librarian
    • View Profile
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2017, 03:00:37 PM »
Can we buy off enough LA to stuff Monster of Legend in there so we can shoehorn some casting? I dunno, or something stupid like Ardent with Practiced Manifester, or shove a Totemist 2 in there. It's been so long since I've done CO that I don't remember anything anymore  :P

Offline SorO_Lost

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6901
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
    • View Profile
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2017, 03:14:00 PM »
Welp, I guess RHD are even worse than they'd previously appeared.
It all depends on if it's RHD or LA being used to counterbalance the monster. Like a Mind Flayer uses Aberration RHD over Psion improving it's HP/BAB and nets +1 level of Manifesting instead of a Bonus Feat or two. They use LA, rather than RHD, as a cost to offset the extra bonuses it's RHD provide.

It's just the replacement deal for RHD is limited to having a single die while as the MM/SS discuss LA is semi-varible and the UA gives mechanics for Players to reduce it up to +3 as well so in a broad sense RHD is normally worse.

Can we buy off enough LA to stuff Monster of Legend in there so we can shoehorn some casting?
It's +7 LA, you can't buy off a point of it and it'll result in an ECL of 23.

You're probably better off using Ur-Priest to grab some casting and maybe Animate Dread Warrior with the standard Desecrate/Corpsecrafter combo to improve your stats a little bit. It's a shame Spell-Stitched is LA -.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 08:32:21 PM by SorO_Lost »
Would you die if you jumped from my perceived ego to your IQ? - Is 15secs of confirmation bias a goal post worth arguing for? - Ever asked a "victim" what they did to deserve it? - Are the words teen, SJW, & liberal synonyms? - "Only Sith deals in absolutes" contains a misspelled word.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7324
  • (un-) Amazingly Unproductive
    • View Profile
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2017, 07:13:24 PM »
Can you use Savage Species rituals to turn yourself into something more useful, like via wishing?

along those lines ... 12 rhd monstrous + a PAO, 
Gather Info skill max'd to find said caster
:P who said Scorpionfolk I'm a (X)_____________ now !!
avatar#3 , gravitational lensing edition ... I'm way on the other side of the universe but look like pretty rings

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10565
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2017, 08:02:30 PM »
Can you use Savage Species rituals to turn yourself into something more useful, like via wishing?

along those lines ... 12 rhd monstrous + a PAO, 
Gather Info skill max'd to find said caster
:P who said Scorpionfolk I'm a (X)_____________ now !!
I think that's a lot less cheesy and might actually fly in some games.
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline SorO_Lost

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6901
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
    • View Profile
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2017, 10:58:35 AM »
I think that's a lot less cheesy and might actually fly in some games.
By Pelor I hope no one thinks it'll fly.

Per MM1, pages 5~7, LA is part of a monster's characteristics. This is often overlooked when using stuff like Shapechange since casting Spells in combat generally doesn't alter XP rewards but we're talking a permanent change. Further more SS's Wish Rituals, which require you to talk to the DM to even use in the first place, has a caveat that the DM may force a percentile chance on obtaining the various Special Abilities of the creature and even goes so far as to state, "It is entirely possible to fail every roll and gain the characteristics of a goal creature but none of the creature’s special attacks or special qualities"
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 01:22:49 PM by SorO_Lost »
Would you die if you jumped from my perceived ego to your IQ? - Is 15secs of confirmation bias a goal post worth arguing for? - Ever asked a "victim" what they did to deserve it? - Are the words teen, SJW, & liberal synonyms? - "Only Sith deals in absolutes" contains a misspelled word.

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10565
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2017, 01:40:36 PM »
I didn't intend for it to bypass the la.
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline SorO_Lost

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6901
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
    • View Profile
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2017, 06:38:25 PM »
I didn't intend for it to bypass the la.
Eh, changing Characters is faster. Can you can even keep the same character's memories by using a Scroll of Mind Rape. :)

Also if the DM is pretty consenting, Darklight Wizard would totally fix those RHD too and it really doesn't matter if you have up to +10LA.
Would you die if you jumped from my perceived ego to your IQ? - Is 15secs of confirmation bias a goal post worth arguing for? - Ever asked a "victim" what they did to deserve it? - Are the words teen, SJW, & liberal synonyms? - "Only Sith deals in absolutes" contains a misspelled word.

Offline nijineko

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2275
  • two strange quarks short of a graviton....
    • View Profile
    • Ask me
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2017, 05:26:44 PM »
  • Get negative levels.
  • Fail the saves until you are down to one HD.
  • Take useful class levels instead of Racial HD.
  • Contribute.
  • Profit?
http://crystalballsoft.com/cblite.html  The best dice roller on the planet, bar none. Read the FAQ to see why.

https://www.box.com/s/du6s5uysdwfony9dfd3p  The Official Complete Psionic Errata.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dbmkg8efcbn4eak/AABSjyTbZIEDdIWm0I_uVFkpa?dl=0 The Archive.

Offline Surreal

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • the former librarian
    • View Profile
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2017, 06:06:36 PM »
I seem to recall there's a very twinky template somewhere that gives wildshape at a level higher than usual for very low LA. Combine that with some item or other PrC cheesiness could be somewhat doable, but basically all we're doing is yet another version of substituting out.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7324
  • (un-) Amazingly Unproductive
    • View Profile
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2017, 06:18:15 PM »
Y'know Surreal, for being 6 years out of it rusty
... (and that grad school excuse ho hum) ...
dropping part of the level 5 punpun into the middle of things, is like BOOM !!
avatar#3 , gravitational lensing edition ... I'm way on the other side of the universe but look like pretty rings

Offline SorO_Lost

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6901
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
    • View Profile
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2017, 01:11:41 PM »
Pun-Pun requires Manipulate Form through, which requires a bit more things to access and even use.

Just hand the character a Shield of the Sun and pretend it's the Scorpionfolk version of Thor.
Would you die if you jumped from my perceived ego to your IQ? - Is 15secs of confirmation bias a goal post worth arguing for? - Ever asked a "victim" what they did to deserve it? - Are the words teen, SJW, & liberal synonyms? - "Only Sith deals in absolutes" contains a misspelled word.

Offline Surreal

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • the former librarian
    • View Profile
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2017, 12:13:41 PM »
Y'know Surreal, for being 6 years out of it rusty
... (and that grad school excuse ho hum) ...
dropping part of the level 5 punpun into the middle of things, is like BOOM !!

Hah I had forgotten about Punpun... I was thinking more that silly Divine Minion template: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a
and just wombling about from there  :P

Oh man, good memory on the grad school thing. Sadly that didn't pan out in the long run and 9 years of grad school went down the drain. Life, an extended illness, a rough divorce... and that thesis was holding me down in a bad place. Had to let go if I valued my mental health. But the last year or so has been a road to recovery, so I'm in a much better place now.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7324
  • (un-) Amazingly Unproductive
    • View Profile
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2017, 03:43:59 PM »
oh those Half-Orc Wom'n ... watch out boys they'll chew you up.
hall + oats tune
avatar#3 , gravitational lensing edition ... I'm way on the other side of the universe but look like pretty rings

Offline Surreal

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • the former librarian
    • View Profile
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2017, 05:18:39 PM »
Thought she was a succubus at first, but turns out she was a vampire  :-\

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10565
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: A Min/Max Challenge
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2017, 09:03:43 PM »
Thought she was a succubus at first, but turns out she was a vampire  :-\
Is there really much of a difference, in the end? :P
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.