Author Topic: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic  (Read 2742 times)

Offline Wilb

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New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« on: November 12, 2017, 05:58:59 PM »
Let's discuss the new spells here.

Shadow blade, Mind Spike and Crown of stars seem funny, and not in a broken way.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2017, 09:04:28 PM »
Shadowblade is nice, do you still get your strength modifier to damage with it?
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Offline Wilb

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2017, 05:03:56 AM »
It is considered a finesse weapon, so yes, you can use your STR (or DEX) mod with it. Duelist probably works too.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2017, 05:25:58 PM »
I suppose we're about the only ones discussing this. >.<

Somethings that got my eye was Grasp of Hadar combined with flying or such, for your last EB to yank them skyward to deal extra damage and give your melees an Advantage on Attack Rolls, it's like hitting them so hard they rebound off the stone floor.

Arcane Archer can also fire a blinding arrow, on a failed Save I believe they are pretty much f**ked. I don't know 5th the best, but it seems there is no penalty to Stealth Checks if you Move action attacking, so everyone gets a free ranged attack with an Advantage against someone who pretty much just lost their turn.

And speaking of Blindness, Shadow Sorcerer is a lovely deal. Drop Darkness on them and both you and your Hound gain an advantage on Attack rolls (plus the wolf can trip to help keep them in the area for another turn). Interestingly, it appears you can cast multiple hounds too.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 04:09:09 PM by SorO_Lost »
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Offline Wilb

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2017, 06:34:30 PM »
What about Tenser's? I heard that it plus the greater mount spell can make a mean Swords bard, and it goes well with War Wizard too.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2017, 08:48:44 PM »
What about Tenser's?
All it has is a niche optimization.

Overall Proficiency to Str Saves isn't much while Con Saves are in too much demand so you'll probably Multiclass/Feat that anyway. 50 Temp HP seems like a big number until you realize it prevents a fraction of damage Resistance for a minute would. Proficiency in Heavy Armor just makes you think the authors & play testers were retarded (see PHB 144 & 146). Since you're probably a gish already Extra Attack and Weapons Proficiency are redundant unless you really are a War Caster or Swords Bard in which case it's Spell tax to access something everyone else already gets. The Spell also cuts you out of Smite-like novas which sucks. And finally, only a Bard 14 & Wizard 11 can access it which limits quite a few options.

But it does grant you auto-Advantage on attack and +2d12 force damage with weapon attacks in a book that offers a College of Valor alternative, Hexblade, & Elven Accuracy. The latter two combined gives you a high hit rate and 27.1% chance to score a Critical. But the Spell has one huge glaring flaw that it relies on your Concentration which means it doesn't combo with Haste or Hex/Hunters or Shadow Blade but instead competes against them.

Haste's extra attack should be worth more than the +13 point damage gain plus you can cast it on others (and twin it). Hex is more of an EB deal which grants a +14 point gain and can't benefit from Tenser's anyway. So let's talk Shadow Blade which can snag Advantage pretty easily, gets a 1~3 attack head start, only subject to Resistance once, available sooner and to more Classes, doesn't prohibit spellcasting, and technically ends up with a higher damage base barring Magic Weapon stacking (like a flametongue).

Which of course brings us to the niche, be a gish that doesn't get Extra Attack and get your DM to hand you a weapon you can spend one of your Attunements on.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 12:32:44 AM by SorO_Lost »
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2017, 02:41:58 PM »
Haven't gotten (to) mine yet.

How much of Xanathar's is basically a previous edition style Dragon Mag Annual?
It seems like most of this stuff (not just spells) has appeared elsewhere.
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Offline Wilb

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2017, 06:08:42 PM »
 
Haven't gotten (to) mine yet.

How much of Xanathar's is basically a previous edition style Dragon Mag Annual?
It seems like most of this stuff (not just spells) has appeared elsewhere.


Xanathar is like the old Dragon Compendium, a gathering of many UA subclasses and feats instead of Dragon articles, with the options tweaked quite a bit.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2017, 03:15:51 PM »
Xanathar is like the old Dragon Compendium, a gathering of many UA subclasses and feats instead of Dragon articles, with the options tweaked quite a bit.
Some of them are semi-hard to miss too. Like the Warlock's "The Celestial" appears to be the finalized version of the UA Underdark's Warlock Patron the "Undying Light".

I only caught it because I was looking for cha-to-radiant damage for Crown of Stars, I knew it was a one level dip somewhere. Well, maybe not so much now through.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2017, 05:31:04 PM »
Just got mine from my local game store. 
Went looking for Monk 4 Elements = nope, pretweeted to be not spells.

Went looking for Ranger BM spells.
Could houserule 3 of the new 1st level to work on/for the beast.
The level 2 healy spell works better for BM than the others.
Perhaps the 12 ~arrows spell goes better for BM, idk maths yet.

Went looking for Bladelock spells.
Most everything works better in isolation for Hexblade, but wouldn't necessarily be as good a choice for Hexblade compared to Blade.
Magic Stone saves an invocation slot.
(time pressed to go line by line)
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Offline Wilb

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2017, 08:26:14 PM »
How about Create Homunculus? I've read it and it is not conclusive, but I think that 10th level necromancers (with the Inured to Undeath feature) may like that spell. Am I right in believing that the Necromancer feature blocks the HP reduction while allowing the homunculus expansion to happen because it is tied to expending Hit die, not reducing max HP?
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2017, 08:42:34 PM »
(time pressed to go line by line)
Yeah and there is quite a bit to find too.

(click to show/hide)

Also a couple of shout outs since I've been reading into it some. With the new Druid option Circle of the Shepard a you can add your Druid level to Goodberry healing for a limited time as a nice counter to Life Clerics stealing it. Gloom Stalker Rangers / Fighters can Action Surge during the first round of combat and gain two additional attacks with an extra +1d8 damage too which makes it better than Abucascade or w/e from the UA's Ranger Alt for burst damage. But if you want something longer, Monster Slayer's +1d6 stacks with Hunter's Mark and it's later obtained auto-Save is nice. The Sorcerer's Divine Soul gives you full access to the Cleric's Spell List and one extra Spell Known which is why people keep talking about it too.

Feat wise, Prodigy deserves a mention. You gain a Language then one Tool & Skill Proficiency then you can choose one Skill to gain double Proficiency. It's a great way for any Class/Path to access Expertise without having to multiclass out before they would want to. Flame of Phlegethos I'd almost consider too, +1 Cha or Int plus if you spam Green-Flame Blade you get to reroll 1s and your opponents take an extra 1d4 damage each time they melee you which isn't bad but there are better Feats to take.

Spells, so many to talk about. Adsorb Elements is Reaction-based so you can Concentrate on something else while enjoying Resistance vs your enemy's nuke. For 25gp plus 25gp per seven days Ceremony can give you a stacking +2 bonus to AC so long as your spouse is dead. Twinned Dragon's Breath on you and your friend's mount is a really easy way to mop up trash. Wizard(necromancer) 10 / Warlock 3 can use Create Homunculus to create a creature with no HP penalty because you prevent it from happening rather than recovering it. And speaking of undead, Danse Macabre is Animate Dead on crack trading around for an hour long duration and uses your Concentration but it can animate up to thirteen undead minions (with mods to att/dmg) using a single Action making it viable to reanimate recently slain foes to turn the tide of the current Encounter. Guardian of Nature is lesser Tenser's with it's defensive option giving you 10 temp HP, Advantage with Shillelagh Attacks, an Advantage on Constitution Saves, and everyone nearby moves at half speed. I love Mighty Fortress because it's week long castle filled with food & servants plus I simply like the idea of it (plus the doors in & out are optional). Temple is the divine version and buffs out a little more too but only lasts for a day making it harder to leave a trail of decaying castles behind you. Shadow of Moil is also a quick way to gain an Advantage on attacks against Humans while punishing them with Disadvantage and 2d8 retaliation but far to many things have darkvision for it to be too useful and Xanathar even jokes about this in one of the notes. Soul Cage gives Wizards a way to heal up to 12d6 damage per 6th level Slot among other things like Scrying or Advantages on Saves off a single Spell. Tiny Servant is a useful trap finder that can double down with the Druid's Animal Shapes for a bunch of HP fodder and Wrath of Nature is pretty nice once you realize all four effects can happen to the same target every round.

Find Greater Steed is right up there with Shadow Blade too. Like Find Steed it gains any Self-only buff you use like Crown of Stars and Shield but it includes a couple flying options with 10s for Int scores giving you some nice kiting support that's capable of acting on it's own if needed.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 05:57:01 PM by SorO_Lost »
Would you die if you jumped from my perceived ego to your IQ? - Is 15secs of confirmation bias a goal post worth arguing for? - Ever asked a "victim" what they did to deserve it? - Are the words teen, SJW, & liberal synonyms? - "Only Sith deals in absolutes" contains a misspelled word.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2017, 11:32:54 AM »
So back to that Hexblade for a moment along with some Sage digging and I think I found "UPS".

David Hirtle: Can magic missile or scorched ray be twinned if caster only targets a single creature? Lots of confusion here.
Jeremy Crawford: The Twinned Spell feature is intended to work on spells that can normally target only one creature.
Mike Mearls: I'd say it's ok, but be leery for any other spells that it might cause issues with.
BrailSaysCould: we please get an official RAW ruling on +damage to Magic Missile/etc? Very heated debate about it on the reddits >_>
Jeremy Crawford: If you summarize the issue, I'll tackle it.
BrailSays: say you have +3 to spell damage from feature. Magic missile 3 bolts. +3 per bolt or flat +3?
Jeremy Crawford: Depends on the feature's wording
BrailSays: evo wizards lvl 10 feature? don’t know exact words
Jeremy Crawford: Empowered Evocation does benefit magic missile's damage roll.
BrailSays: +x per bolt,even on same target?
Jeremy Crawford: Yep. It's one damage roll, just like fireball, but that roll can damage the same target more than once.
Marc Sharma: Do you roll the same d4 for all darts, or one d4 per dart?
Jeremy Crawford: RAW: You roll 1 damage die (see "Damage Rolls," PH, 196). RAI: It doesn't matter; you choose.
So Twinned is kind of subjective if you hate Mearls but potentially a Wizard 14 / Warlock 1 / Sorcerer 3 / Fighter 2 can deal a maximized 1d4+1, plus his +5 for Intelligence, plus his +6 Proficiency Bonus, plus Hex's 1d6, for up to 22 damage which further multiplied by nine missiles for up to 198 damage. With Twin, which only costs 1 point for a 1st level Spell, that is almost four hundred damage and you can't even fail your Attack Roll. ...And then you use Action Boost and spend your Sorcerer Slot and last Sorcery Point.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 12:00:36 PM by SorO_Lost »
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Offline Wilb

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2017, 07:11:32 PM »
Tenser's feels a little bit better in combination with Find Greater Steed, Bards will surely love this combo.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2017, 07:28:17 PM »
Tenser's feels a little bit better in combination with Find Greater Steed, Bards will surely love this combo.
That's a nice one and Bards can list dip to pick it up too. And I just realized Oath of Conquest can use it's Channel Divinity for a +10 bonus to Attack Rolls just in case you were holding Slots back out of the fear of missing.

Do you remember back when 5th started and WotC was like we're going to take it slow and break things less so we were looting Adventures, UAs, whatever Sword Coast is supposed to be? Xanathar are our first real player-oriented splat book and look at how the paradigm of balance has increased because of them just so they could get people to buy the new product line.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 07:36:50 PM by SorO_Lost »
Would you die if you jumped from my perceived ego to your IQ? - Is 15secs of confirmation bias a goal post worth arguing for? - Ever asked a "victim" what they did to deserve it? - Are the words teen, SJW, & liberal synonyms? - "Only Sith deals in absolutes" contains a misspelled word.

Offline Wilb

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2017, 10:12:17 AM »
Tenser's feels a little bit better in combination with Find Greater Steed, Bards will surely love this combo.
That's a nice one and Bards can list dip to pick it up too. And I just realized Oath of Conquest can use it's Channel Divinity for a +10 bonus to Attack Rolls just in case you were holding Slots back out of the fear of missing.

Do you remember back when 5th started and WotC was like we're going to take it slow and break things less so we were looting Adventures, UAs, whatever Sword Coast is supposed to be? Xanathar are our first real player-oriented splat book and look at how the paradigm of balance has increased because of them just so they could get people to buy the new product line.

As much as I love 5e, I certainly miss the good old days of underwater basketweaving warforged and flaming zombie chicken throwing drunken peasants, but the craving for new official material is too strong in me, sadly.
Lovely Zoma...

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2017, 06:53:43 PM »
the Ruby Xyz common item lets any weapon be an Arcane Focus. Gishes say thank you.


There's a sidebar litely explaining the strong hint that magic weapons are kinda sorta necessary (having read the Libertad thread round these parts).


The CoffeLock recharge Soro references, has a fakey nerf sidebar that explains an escalating penalty for lack of sleep which is exactly Not the problem with elves/warforged or the invocation ... shhhhhh  :cool , however rai and gentlemans agreement should be neutering enough.


Caelic popped up on giantitp about the Eldritch Smite Invoc.  Yeah I can see that needing a Ruling.  Pally smite in spell slots, and those spell slots working with Lock slots, even got a tweet-rata confirm.  So a sloppy Occam's could refer to that and be done with any arguments.  More complicated would go : OK lock slots are different in a number of ways, this can be one, especially since this is an Invoc problem NOT an actual spell or spell equivalent (and/or Invocs are not the same as class abilities for other classes).  Personally I don't think the Lock slots are as efficient a use of those slots with Eld Smite, versus a Pally using normal spell slots for it's Smite.  So it really shouldn't be a problem to keep it.  Caelic used a strong IF, and certainly a tweet-rata could clear things up if necessary.  Maybe I'm overthinking it (for a change).
 :eh
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Offline Wilb

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2017, 07:28:33 PM »
Can you link Caelic's post? (is it allowed?)
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2017, 12:08:54 PM »
The CoffeLock recharge Soro references,
With a name that stupid there can only be one thing you're talking about, but no abusing Flexible Casting has been around since the Edition was even officially released. And the Warlock's Pact Magic has always been a part of it for the acceleration factor.

Can you link Caelic's post? (is it allowed?)
Why would it not be allowed? Also who needs a ruling because I have one from last month. >.>
Willabunch: Talking about Eldritch Smite; can you only use Warlock spell slots to power it, or can you use any slot (à la Divine Smite)? The RAW on it specifies Warlock slots.
Jeremy Crawford: Eldritch Smite works with warlock spell slots only—the ones you get from Pact Magic.
calebrus44: Why the disparity between smite mechanics? Pally can use any slot, but Lock can’t? I mean, every single other caster can use warlock slots to play with their own toys, but warlocks can't use anyone else's? That's asinine.
Jeremy Crawford: That’s exactly it, @armando_doval. In our asymmetrical, exceptions-based game, things are designed according to their own purpose, not in order to achieve arbitrary symmetries.
Jeremy Crawford: Or can you explain why your previous ruling(s) that spell slots are shared, which is explained on PHB 164, is being changed now? Eldritch Smite’s functionality has no bearing on how multiclass spellcasting works.
And to better understand why it's asinine, Divine Smite uses a Paladin's Slot and Eldritch Smite uses a Warlock Slot. Jeremy is still enforcing his previous rulings (see spoiler) but has now created a double standard.
(click to show/hide)


Also Jeremy already trying to nerf Healing Spirit already.
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:23:30 PM by SorO_Lost »
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: New Spells from Xanathar Discussion Topic
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2017, 03:34:10 PM »
Caelic's post = I google-fu fail , they haven't crawled the whole site recently enough.
BUT Soro's sage link is better ...
Looks like Eld Smite can use 5th level slots, while Pally can't. 

Huh, Healing Spirit was the only RangerBM better booster. 
Some random dude must have whined HARD.
I suppose a Life Cleric dip could get the #'s up quite tasty,
but I doubt all the movement sacrificed to pull it off,
makes it as good as normal cleric ranged healing.
I guess harder #'s should be in order.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 03:45:41 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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