Author Topic: Thought Experiment: Character Builds  (Read 2455 times)

Offline DeadEnough

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Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« on: December 06, 2017, 04:47:09 AM »
So, while recovering from a broken back and being on Percocet, character ideas flow into the noggin.

This idea came to me while watching a friend play Telltale Games: Game of Thrones.

Rogue/Ranger: 17/3 or 15/5?

Rogue would be either Scout or Assassin. Ranger would be Gloom Stalker.

17/3 gives me more sneak attack Damage.

15/5 gives me a second attack.

So, I ask the posters here, which route do YOU prefer and why?

Let’s.....GO!

Offline Archon

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Re: Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2017, 05:31:32 AM »
I mean, I can't remember much about the ranger, but surely if damage is all you care about, then go for the second attack? two attacks, each with ~8 dice of sneak attack, is surely better than one with 9. You get a ability score increase either way (16/4 would get two, but no extra attack, and would miss the 17th level ability).

The 17th level ability would be good, but not game changing. I haven't read scout, but the Assassin's death attack is a little boring. The double damage might make up for having only one attack, even if it is only 1/combat or less.

But overall, I think rogue 15/ranger 5 is better dps than the alternative. I kinda like the second level spells you get from that. A consolation prize, maybe.

Offline DeadEnough

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Re: Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2017, 06:07:59 AM »
It’s not just about damage. I’m lookin at other people’s opinions. It can be from a utility, overall effectiveness, or combat.

Side note: you can only apply sneak attack ONCE on your turn (not including reaction attacks)

Offline Archon

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Re: Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2017, 06:58:31 AM »
Wait really? Huh. Need to check over the rules then.

There's not much to pick between the two builds. Your first level should be rogue, because that gets you one more skill, I think (I like skills). Second level spells are nice. The extra attack is probably still worth more damage than 1d6 sneak attack (especially if it helps avoid losing you sneak attacks due to regular misses).

I don't think your utility changes much. I am vaguely interested by 16/4 for the extra ability increase, since feats are cool. I might even do that over 17/3. Not sure.

Offline DeadEnough

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Re: Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2017, 03:32:06 AM »
16/4? Nice toss in.

I tend to think the second attack is beneficial because it gives you a second opportunity to apply your Sneak Attack Damage in case you miss the first one. Additionally, if you have Hunter’s Mark with a short sword, that gives you the damage you would miss from SA.

From utility/combat point of view, you do get second level spells.

What are your thoughts on going Scout over Assassin?

Offline Archon

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Re: Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2017, 05:41:12 AM »
Where's scout written? I haven't seen that one. (or just, what do you get?)

Offline DeadEnough

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Re: Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2017, 02:54:41 AM »
It’s in Xanathar’s Guide to everything.

Am I allowed to post what you get? If so, I’ll post some stuff.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2017, 04:27:26 PM »
Scout is also (still) in a UA , pretty similar iirc.
Kasz has it in his stickied thread on the top of the 5e page.

I like Goblin with Revised Ranger getting part of the Rogue stuff that way.
How exactly Re-Ranger works with the various subclasses is homegame but presumed possible / necessary.
Dex , Dex , Sharpshooter , then branch off from Ranger 11 if inclined.

Haven't digested Xan enough to comment on that.
Is there some specific synergy you're looking for?
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Offline Nifft

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Re: Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2017, 04:56:48 PM »
Am I allowed to post what you get? If so, I’ll post some stuff.

You are not allowed to reproduce the entire work.

You are certainly allowed to post the ideas, as long as you use your own words -- copyright only refers to a specific expression of a work, not to all possible expressions.

Under the Fair Use laws, you are also allowed to copy-paste a few excerpts from a work.

tl;dr - Yes, yes you are.

Offline Archon

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Re: Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2017, 09:48:09 PM »
Okay, so looking at the unearthed Arcana for the Scout, and I reckon I like it more than assassin. The skills are nice. Sudden strike seems to be pretty close to a second attack - but rogues generally have stuff to do with their bonus action. By interleaving the class levels you could get a second attack like 7-10 levels sooner (I like rogue 5/ranger whichever/rest of rogue).

In general, looking at scout makes me wonder what you want out of the ranger part, though.

But either way, def. Scout over Assassin.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2017, 02:44:56 PM »
(reads) Now I see the attraction of Gloom Stalker :
triggering Invisible all the time, throw in lots of Hide actions too.
Goblin kicks it off 2 levels sooner.
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Offline DeadEnough

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Re: Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2017, 05:40:59 PM »
Gloom Stalker is nice. You’re “invisible” to creatures using darkvision and add your wisdom modifier to initiative. Add in a high Dex and alert, you’re almost always guaranteed first go. Tack on Assassin and that is a big ol chin Check to start off a fight.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2017, 04:33:54 PM »
Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiice. 

Throw in Advantage on Init via Re-Ranger too.
Is this the best Alpha-Striker?  Maybe.
Best init and easier hide triggering.

Wis + Dex races preferred , so that's :
VHuman , Half-Elf , one of the Planescape Elves ...
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Offline DeadEnough

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Re: Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2017, 03:52:58 AM »
I was thinking V.Human to get that early Alert feat.

I really like the new Ranger archetypes, even if the ranger can be meh. Like you said, that big burst alpha strike can really get the fight off to a start in your favor.

Offline anansi

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Re: Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2018, 11:41:09 PM »
So, while recovering from a broken back and being on Percocet, character ideas flow into the noggin.

This idea came to me while watching a friend play Telltale Games: Game of Thrones.

Rogue/Ranger: 17/3 or 15/5?

Rogue would be either Scout or Assassin. Ranger would be Gloom Stalker.

17/3 gives me more sneak attack Damage.

15/5 gives me a second attack.

So, I ask the posters here, which route do YOU prefer and why?

Let’s.....GO!


I would go for the more Sneak attack damage as you only get your sneak attack once per round. Between scout and assasin for damage I would go scout for flavor I would go Assassin I have played both classes and my Scouts tend to deal more damage throughout the campaign mainly because our DM rarely gave us surprise rounds and the ones I got where hard earned which made sense. The scout has the useful ability at level 13 that made first rounds epic Ambush master giving everyone advantage on attack rolls on an enemy I hit great when there is one big baddie. There is also the ability at 17 sudden strike that allows you to have a second sneak attack in a round but it cant be against the same character. I went straight rogue both times but at higher levels as often as I used sudden strike it was mostly on small skirmishes and less useful against the big baddies if I was going to multiclass I would probably go 16/4 for an extra feat or asi but thats me personally I dont know how optimized it would be.

Offline Helliquin

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Re: Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2018, 07:54:27 PM »
Let’s.....GO!

Ranger 4 (Gloomstalker), Monk 7 (Drunken Monk), Rogue 5 (Assassin), Fighter 3 (UA Brute, if allowed)

(RRR, MMMMM, RG, RG, RG, FFF, RG, RG, M, M, R) where R = ranger, RG = rogue, F = fighter, M = monk)

2 "normal" attacks, 1 Gloomstalker attack, 2 flurry of blows, action surge attack.

Alpha Strike:  26D6+12D4+2D8+42 (assuming surprise, auto crit, rolling with advantage on hit, advantage on initiative)

Also gives you a lot of speed, defense, utility, higher AC, higher Initiative

Offline DeadEnough

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Re: Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2018, 04:31:07 AM »
That’s a whole lot of classes to be dipping in!

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2018, 11:12:33 AM »
That’s a whole lot of classes to be dipping in!
It sort of is. Fighter[battle master] 11 / Ranger[gloomstalker] 3  / Rogue[assassin] 3 is the standard minimum, obtaining eight critical attacks at the start of every ambush, from there you can add more Classes or progress them to 12/4/4 for more ASIs. The Monk is mostly wasted space.

Most people are simply unaware of the fact the Fighter gets extra attacks (and ASIs) above any other Class. Fighter 11 for example makes three attacks and Action Surges for three more, so in comparison to his suggestion which gets a total of six attacks and two Unarmed, an Assassin dipped Fighter gets six critical attacks using his best magical weapon (say flametongue greatsword for 4d6+2) on every attack rather than being limited to a plain 1d6 on two of them.

I'd replace seven levels of Monk with more Fighter and if you really want an extra Class in there you could consider Warlock. Consider the fact that your trading two critical unarmed strikes that deal 2d6+5 each (22 total) with Hexblade's Curse which grants a +6 bonus to every attack (36 dmg in his build, 48 in the standard). Plus it continues to pay off even more because with Warlock you can Hex them next round for even more extra damage, to decrease their chances to Save against your allies, and you have an increased chance to Crit outside of the first round. Simply put, for a build like this one level in Warlock gives you more than seven levels in Monk does.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 05:12:00 PM by SorO_Lost »
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Thought Experiment: Character Builds
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2018, 04:41:33 PM »
Fighter 2 / Assassin 3 / X ... was one of the ~classics back at pre shut down wotc.
That thread generated the most nerfs and erratas , and ever so important tweet-ratas.
But yeah, getting the 2 attacks (or 3) is almost always better = always better without real maths.

2 chances at 8d6 , versus 1 chance at 9d6 = ought to be easy math.
Early damage leader was Fighter 11 / Rogue 9, particular subclass blah blah not so important.

The Sorc and Lock versions were more complicated and iirc caused some of the nerfs.
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