Author Topic: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z  (Read 4853 times)

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #260 on: October 25, 2018, 06:49:52 AM »
New Stolen System doesn't say how to acquire the System Quirks or how many or few you can select.

Use your Techno Thief level to determine the kind of robot your Stolen System  can emulate, including Arsenal Options (your Techno Thief levels can count as either Real Pilot or Super Pilot levels, or any combination of those two classes), changeable at each level up, plus one of the following quirks, changeable at level up. The Techno Thief can steal change arsenal at any organization.
(click to show/hide)


Maybe you missed it because of the arsenal comment in between? Should I move said line somewhere else or is the bolded part not clear enough?

Offline ketaro

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #261 on: October 25, 2018, 03:11:28 PM »
Probably move it to the end right above the list it references. It definitely got lost in the block of text.

Offline Sweetiebot

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #262 on: October 25, 2018, 04:01:22 PM »
If I'm a Techno Thief Moon Vanguard, can I use Vanguard Princess to make my Nano-Armour stolen property?

If so, how exactly would I make it Hot Property, fluffwise? Do I just call up some random military and start calling them a bunch of assholes for eight hours straight, and then their enemies are like "Check out the balls on that kid. Nice!"

Also, if I'm a pilot with particular requirements, like a Peace Princess, do all the Mecha I acquire through "totally legit" means meet those requirements, like being filled with nice but useless stuff as all Royal Robots are?

Oh yeah, and can Techno Thiefs "borrow until they die" a Mass-Produced super robot?

One more thing. Do Battleships stolen with Lacus Leftovers have crew, and can I steal an alternate class feature or flaw battleship?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 05:01:36 PM by Sweetiebot »

Offline Fzzr

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #263 on: October 26, 2018, 04:06:42 PM »
Probably move it to the end right above the list it references. It definitely got lost in the block of text.
I got confused too. Posted a suggested rewrite in that thread, check it out.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #264 on: October 28, 2018, 02:09:42 AM »
Probably move it to the end right above the list it references. It definitely got lost in the block of text.
Applied Fzzr's suggestion, thanks for the helping spot.

If I'm a Techno Thief Moon Vanguard, can I use Vanguard Princess to make my Nano-Armour stolen property?
Yes.

If so, how exactly would I make it Hot Property, fluffwise? Do I just call up some random military and start calling them a bunch of assholes for eight hours straight, and then their enemies are like "Check out the balls on that kid. Nice!"
It would be more "check out the balls on that kid who stole a nano-armour from the random military. Nice!"


Also, if I'm a pilot with particular requirements, like a Peace Princess, do all the Mecha I acquire through "totally legit" means meet those requirements, like being filled with nice but useless stuff as all Royal Robots are?
Usually not right away, but nobody said you're stealing from just one source. :p

Oh yeah, and can Techno Thiefs "borrow until they die" a Mass-Produced super robot?
Indeed if you take the respective quirk.

One more thing. Do Battleships stolen with Lacus Leftovers have crew, and can I steal an alternate class feature or flaw battleship?
Good points, added clauses to cover that.

Offline Sweetiebot

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #265 on: October 28, 2018, 03:59:07 AM »
.......

So, I'm ditching my existing nano-armour to steal a different one?

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #266 on: October 28, 2018, 05:14:34 AM »
Well you said Techno Thief Moon Vanguard so I assumed the Techno Thief levels came first, so you would be stealing your first Nano-Armor. :P

If you were a Moon Vanguard first then you would basically be stealing important military tech to upgrade your nano-armour.

But ditching an older model for something newer and shinier isn't impossible either.

Online Nanshork

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #267 on: October 28, 2018, 08:48:49 PM »
Os sure is good at cracking the whip in PMs and making sure that i don't neglect reviewing his stuff.  :p

Okay, I requested work on the Monado classes so I'll jump out of the Index and tackle those next.


Does Mark of Monado mean that while fighting mecha they gain all bonuses/penalties of being fine sized (such as +8 to hit but no reach)?  It looks like yes but I want to make sure.

Also I can't remember if this has come up.  Do mecha gain the bonuses from magic items their pilots are wearing?


Monado Master
Does the damage for other people trying to wield the monado replica happen once or every turn?

Does Monado Power: Shield negate one total or one per person?

Monado Phalanx
The Gunlance has made me look at the firearms, which brings up a question.  I assume that you have to pay for the weapons/shield that make up the gunlance as a first level character?

Monado Medic
So close to infinite out of combat healing... (PF has no usage cap on level 0 spells, not that that's really relevant.)

Spellcraft should be on the skill list.  Also Heal since Medic is in the class name.

Monado Mage
Spellcraft should be on the skill list.

Does Summon Copy have to copy another Summon X that you know?

Arcane Arts: Ether Blast should say that the Elemental Burst ends immediately.



Cross referencing I just realized that Divine Pilot references Sorcerer casting.  Is that intentional?

So you effectively (kind of) have rogue/fighter/cleric/wizard.  I'm going to guess that Myrmidon is paladin.  I have no idea what Maid is.

I don't know if these compare well with the mecha on a mathematical level but assuming that mecha don't get bonuses from magic items and only from accessories/class features they seem already from a theoretical perspective

Offline ketaro

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #268 on: October 28, 2018, 08:58:35 PM »
Quote
I don't know if these compare well with the mecha on a mathematical level but assuming that mecha don't get bonuses from magic items and only from accessories/class features they seem already from a theoretical perspective
Magic Items that grant permanent effects seem to transition through mecha. I.E. Belt of Strength.

IIRC

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #269 on: October 28, 2018, 11:13:53 PM »
Does Mark of Monado mean that while fighting mecha they gain all bonuses/penalties of being fine sized (such as +8 to hit but no reach)?  It looks like yes but I want to make sure.
Correct, that's also why each of them gets a custom weapon for minimm 5 mu reach.

Also I can't remember if this has come up.  Do mecha gain the bonuses from magic items their pilots are wearing?
As Ketaro helpfully pointed out, yes for permanent effects that benefit the pilot.

Monado Master
Does the damage for other people trying to wield the monado replica happen once or every turn?
Per round, clarified.

Does Monado Power: Shield negate one total or one per person?
Per person, clarified too.


Monado Phalanx
The Gunlance has made me look at the firearms, which brings up a question.  I assume that you have to pay for the weapons/shield that make up the gunlance as a first level character?
Good point, allowed them to get a free martial weapon, automatic rifle with a clip and a light, heavy or tower shield for their first gunlance.

Monado Medic
So close to infinite out of combat healing... (PF has no usage cap on level 0 spells, not that that's really relevant.)
Basic Tome of Battle that can do it too with divine spirit maneuvers, just explain how trees/rocks are your ancient enemies. :p

Spellcraft should be on the skill list.  Also Heal since Medic is in the class name.
Ups, added. :blush

Monado Mage
Spellcraft should be on the skill list.
Done too.

Does Summon Copy have to copy another Summon X that you know?
Yes, clarified.

Arcane Arts: Ether Blast should say that the Elemental Burst ends immediately.
Done, applied it to Burst End too since it's also supposed to end Elemental Burst.

Cross referencing I just realized that Divine Pilot references Sorcerer casting.  Is that intentional?
Well it's supposed to be the same spell slot progression and mechanics except they're supposed to be divine instead of arcane, good eyes.

So you effectively (kind of) have rogue/fighter/cleric/wizard.  I'm going to guess that Myrmidon is paladin.  I have no idea what Maid is.
Correct in Myrmidon, Maid will basically be normal-humanoid-sized combat cyborg/android with super upgrades.

I don't know if these compare well with the mecha on a mathematical level but assuming that mecha don't get bonuses from magic items and only from accessories/class features they seem already from a theoretical perspective
I suppose you mean "alright" instead of "already" there.  :P

Now mechas can benefit from magic items that directly benefit their pilot stats, but one thing that mechas can't get is magic enhancement to attack/damage/rolls/AC (well they kinda can get magic enhancement with the Arcane Arsenal feat but can only be applied to lower tier weapons so I'll consider it a non-factor for now).

Plus the Monado Classes each get a custom weapon that further buffs their stats. At 20th level the weapon could be giving +6 to AC/attacks/saves. Then they're also fine-sized so that's another +8 to AC/attacks and they can stack armor/weapon magic enhancements on top so another +5 to attack/AC for a total of +19 AC/attack.

A standard super robot would get+6 to saves base, +11 attack rolls from targeting and +24 AC from 2 base plus plating+agility. Those numbers may shift if you go with fancier upgrades and depending on accessory pick, but at base looks alright to me, with the super robot being tankier but also less precise.

Does that sound good? If yes, then I'll move to doing the Monado Myrmidon and Maid.

Thanks once more for your great help!

Online Nanshork

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #270 on: October 29, 2018, 12:25:52 AM »
Oh, for Divine Pilot you're doing sorcerer because you don't like referencing non-core classes. Got it, I can live with that.

I have no issues with free out of combat healing, it was just a tangent because I had to go check which ruleset had unlimited level 0 spells.

I look forward to Myrmidon and Maid.

I think that the numbers are all fine in terms of attack vs saves vs AC and everyone can get fancy stuff but different kinds of fancy stuff.  I don't know if WBL static bonuses plus accessories is better than cherry picking magic items but everything seems on the up and up without a deep dive into mathland which I'm only so good at (as I've mentioned).

The only other concern that I can think of is hp. I've been keeping an eye on your SRW game since I started looking at this project and a lot of damage gets thrown around. Monado classes don't get two pools of HP. I don't know how big of an actual problem this is or the best way to address it.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #271 on: October 29, 2018, 01:21:07 AM »
The only other concern that I can think of is hp. I've been keeping an eye on your SRW game since I started looking at this project and a lot of damage gets thrown around. Monado classes don't get two pools of HP. I don't know how big of an actual problem this is or the best way to address it.

A valid concern. It's not exactly two pools of HP since if one's mecha gets blown up it's best to start thinking about retreat, but it does serve as an insurance since getting back a destroyed mecha is usually easier than getting back a killed pilot. The mechas themselves will usually have more HP than your average character although a character pumping up their Con can get more, and there's some racial abilities that allow one to use their personal HP for their mecha, but then both pools basically become one.

Now I made the Monado Medic able to "heal" dead allies just in case they get unlucky, but now I realize there's the problem of what happens if your medic is the one going down (or if you have no medic).

In the original game, there's this nifty mechanic where if a party member gets to 0 HP, you can go stand next to them and get them back on their feet by sacrificing part of the "limit break" bar and it it also heals them for a reasonable amount so they don't go down right away. I think that could help cover things here, probably using spirit points as the cost. Make it a default of Mark of Monado, as a standard action can bring back an adjacent Mark of Monado ally that's been dead for no more than 1 round per PL and heal them 1d6 HP per 2 spirit points spent. Twice spirit cost to do it as move, triple spirit to do it as swift. So Monado classes are squishier (as they should be since they're not inside mechas) but just keep standing back up as long one of them remains and has enough spirit. How does that sound?

Online Nanshork

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #272 on: October 29, 2018, 01:54:43 PM »
I'm not really sure how I feel about it to be honest.

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #273 on: November 02, 2018, 09:05:02 PM »
Monado Myrmidon

I think that Lay on Feet should say that it isn't active as long as you aren't prone instead of not tripped.

Astra Art should specify that they Gifts apply to Lay on Feet.


Monado Maiden

Hmm, interesting.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #274 on: November 02, 2018, 10:20:35 PM »
Monado Myrmidon

I think that Lay on Feet should say that it isn't active as long as you aren't prone instead of not tripped.
Yeah, that sounds better.

Astra Art should specify that they Gifts apply to Lay on Feet.
Done too.

Monado Maiden

Hmm, interesting.
Excellent.

Offline Fzzr

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #275 on: November 05, 2018, 01:46:53 AM »
Reminder to add short descriptions for maneuvers/stances to Beam Barrage, Everywhere You Go, and Missile Massacre.

In the index, "Arsenal-weapons and acessories." should be "Arsenal-weapons and accessories."

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #276 on: November 05, 2018, 03:55:12 AM »
That should be all taken care of except for Missile Massacre short descriptions that will probably need to wait until tomorrow.

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #277 on: November 05, 2018, 09:28:21 PM »
And missile massacre short descriptions added too.

Offline Fzzr

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #278 on: November 10, 2018, 08:00:50 PM »
So, on the topic of fun and balance. Note: for the purpose of this post I'm referring exclusively to things from within this homebrew (not monster classes and the like) and to single-track builds, no gestalt. I'm also focusing on combat here - let's take it as a given that any class can be made interesting for non-combat purposes. I'm also ignoring Einst Queen because I find it doesn't suffer from any of the problems here, being essentially all three main types of classes in one.

I still hold that Real Pilot is the best combat class due to the Real Robot builtins and models being just that good, plus full arsenal access and more accessories. The thing is, I also find them to be one of the least interesting classes due to having relatively little possible customization. Ironically, the most powerful feature of Reals (the choice of model) is also the most limiting, with only half a dozen choices per tier. The alternative, generics, are undercut by being largely worse than the premade models on the basis of stats, features, and weapons. This is because Real builtins are somewhat better than Arsenal, and premade Real models will end up with more weapons due to having access to builtins and arsenal at the same time. The other classes (not counting Mecha Mook) that get Real Robots but not Super upgrades are Divine Pilot, Mecha Marine, and Prodigy Pilot, all of which can cast or manifest. Every other class is Super-based or hybrid.

This interacts with a few other issues, as well. Due to the way cross-classing works, Real-based classes and hybrid classes always feel Real-first, something else second. The reason for this is that anything that gives you a level in Real Pilot gives you a Real Robot you can customize, instead of feeling like it supplements the other class. As a result, more than half the classes in the homebrew are exposed to the issue of choosing among half a dozen base builds per tier unless they make the affirmative choice to be pure Super for hybrid purposes. On the other hand, they're still more interesting than Real Pilot because they benefit from more customization between real tier breakpoints as they can apply Super upgrades during that point, plus they each have their own distinct set of class features. When you combine this with the numerical superiority of the Real models and access to Arsenal a full tier higher, most builds have to choose to be less interesting to be more powerful. For contrast, the reason that Star Sniper is so promising is that it feels like a Real, but with more interesting class features instead of just having worse stats. (Note, I'm not suggesting turning Star Sniper into a base class, just using it as an example.)

On the other side of the power curve: Ship Captain is other least interesting class to play, and the hardest to make combat-effective. It gets slow Arsenal progression, but can't meaningfully access it without cross-classing or directly sacrificing another class feature via the Combat Commander ACF. It benefits even less than Super-based and hybrid Real/Super classes from cross-classing with real-based classes, essentially ending up just worse than both. (At least Real/Super helps the Real model one chooses, Ship Captain just ends up with an under-leveled Real and an under-leveled Battleship.) It gets all the downsides of size, but none of the upsides. It's only possible to hit things without extra resource expenditure (maneuvers/spirits) or by making the first Distinguished Officer a Weapons Officer. Adding Distinguished Officer variety helped a bit with customizablity, since it's at least possible to focus a bit on one's favorite part of the class. Nonetheless, Ship Captain is arguably even less customizable than Real Pilot, but without the benefit of combat effectiveness. The one thing BB does well is buffs thanks to martial school choice and spirit discounts, but having one way to play isn't a lot of fun, especially since in the end it comes down to "do things to make other classes better at being useful".

The BB variety issue may be harder to solve, as (per other players from my game) the most fun BBs are the ones that are combat effective (Yamato, Neo Nautilus) or that don't really represent a pure BB (ie Choujinga Dai-Gurren and Shin Dragon, which are more like Super/BB crosses). The signature abilities of those BBs are represented in the class already, the main issue is the lack of effectiveness.

To summarize, there are four main types of classes:
  • Real-Based
  • Super-Based
  • Real/Super Hybrid
  • Battleship-Based

In order of raw power, they are:
  • Real-based
  • Real/Super hybrid
  • Super-Based
  • Battleship-Based

In order of fun to use, they are:
  • Super-Based or Real/Super hybrid
  • Battleship-Based
  • Real-based

In short, class power is roughly inversely correlated with how interesting it is to play. This is the source of much of the frustration you've heard from us over the years. Much of our feedback has revolved around the Super/Real dichotomy - reducing the power on high-level weapons that only reals can truly access, and giving Supers access to options to keep up with Reals in more ways. Battleship is now even further behind as a result, and I suggest looking into ways to improve BB build variety.

Addendum: Even if you don't agree with the assertion that Reals are numerically superior, the rest of the issues with Real and BB not being as fun as other classes apply, just without the element of compromise on power. If you take that view, then there's no point to playing a Real at all, because everything else is equally powerful but more interesting.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #279 on: November 10, 2018, 09:16:57 PM »
Ok, let's see if I can reply properly to your great post.

To summarize, there are four main types of classes:
  • Real-Based
  • Super-Based
  • Real/Super Hybrid
  • Battleship-Based
Considering einst queen is being left aside for now I agree.

In order of raw power, they are:
  • Real-based
  • Real/Super hybrid
  • Super-Based
  • Battleship-Based
If you don't mind me asking, how can the real/super hybrid be below the pure real? Because the hybrid should be able to do all that the real does but with upgrade customization on top.

In order of fun to use, they are:
  • Super-Based or Real/Super hybrid
  • Battleship-Based
  • Real-based

This is the source of much of the frustration you've heard from us over the years. Much of our feedback has revolved around the Super/Real dichotomy - reducing the power on high-level weapons that only reals can truly access, and giving Supers access to options to keep up with Reals in more ways. Battleship is now even further behind as a result, and I suggest looking into ways to improve BB build variety.
Ok, so just to make sure I'm understanding your points properly, you're suggesting to:
-Supers/battleships should be buffed up numbers-wise (with battleships getting greater boosts).
-Battleship multiclassing with real/super too weak, buff up.
-Battleshiip combat ACF too weak, buff up.
-Battleships need more build options.
-The only thing that should be toned down on the reals are the current top weapons (any more problematic weapons on arsenals or just in-built?)
-You also said that the real generics are too weak, should they be buffed up as well?

Addendum: Even if you don't agree with the assertion that Reals are numerically superior, the rest of the issues with Real and BB not being as fun as other classes apply, just without the element of compromise on power. If you take that view, then there's no point to playing a Real at all, because everything else is equally powerful but more interesting.

But that's the thing, I believe there needs to be a simple option. I understand your group prefers deeper customization, but there's also people out there that want to be able to just pick a mecha with stats already prepared with a bunch of weapons and go to town. Ditto for battleships, they're supposed to be simple mobile bases with a bunch of big guns (that surprisingly are just about as effective as smaller mecha weapons) supporting from behind. Yamato and Neo Nautilius are the exception in the series, not the rule, and thus at best should be ACFs.

Now the main problem seems that there's not enough real options, in particular since you claim generics are too weak. I can go work on more reals, buff the generics if that's the case.

Also we can make more prcs a la Star Sniper to offer further customization paths for reals. Another idea I had floating around was a real-only self-engineering feat for reals to represent stuff like Amuro who can tweak their machines (and only their machines) a bit during downtime.



And yes, mechas with fixed stats should have slightly higher raw power, because mechas with customizeable stats will end up being, well, more customizeable and be able to make up for the raw difference with better synergies. Now if the difference is too big it needs to be toned down, but again I would like you to tell me what's the ideal "middle point" that would be best to aim at. Einst Queen numbers since you claimed it to be the one with no problems?

Although now that I think about it, it's a bit weird to me that you claim Einst Queen's pretty cool but Real Pilot's too limited. Why? Einst Queen drone list is smaller than the real robot list, the list of bioweapons and mutations is also shorter than the list of arsenal weapons and accessories, and to pick up the mutations you need to give up on maneuver/spellcasting progression. The way I see it, the Einst Queen's even more limited than the Real Pilot and one of the things in my to-do list is expanding the drones/bioweapons/mutation lists.

So what is it exactly that makes you like the einst queen but not the real pilot? If we can pinpoint that key difference, it would be a great help.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 09:29:19 PM by oslecamo »