Author Topic: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z  (Read 4854 times)

Offline Fzzr

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #280 on: November 11, 2018, 12:16:08 AM »
If you don't mind me asking, how can the real/super hybrid be below the pure real? Because the hybrid should be able to do all that the real does but with upgrade customization on top.
Somehow I had it in my head that they lose their arsenal access, but that only applies to Soul Soldier, not the base classes. The main point of differentiation between Reals and the Real/Super hybrids is maneuvers and bonus feats vs their class features. In retrospect though, you're right: Statistically, Techno Thief and Magitech Knight are potentially the most powerful base classes in raw mecha numbers, mitigated somewhat by the Stolen System quirk and Code of Conduct respectively. I'll need to think about that in more detail. That said, bringing Reals down in power somewhat would mean that they're naturally just like playing a Real/Super x-class with some flavor instead of just being Better.

This is the source of much of the frustration you've heard from us over the years. Much of our feedback has revolved around the Super/Real dichotomy - reducing the power on high-level weapons that only reals can truly access, and giving Supers access to options to keep up with Reals in more ways. Battleship is now even further behind as a result, and I suggest looking into ways to improve BB build variety.
Ok, so just to make sure I'm understanding your points properly, you're suggesting to:
-Supers/battleships should be buffed up numbers-wise (with battleships getting greater boosts).
-Battleship multiclassing with real/super too weak, buff up.
-Battleshiip combat ACF too weak, buff up.
-Battleships need more build options.
BBs need numerical boosts in TH primarily, but I'll let others dive into those details. Supers mostly don't need buffs if the top level to-hit, damage, and AC (especially this) on Reals come down somewhat. BB combat ACF is reasonable for itself, the problem is more that the Custom Ship feature (Arsenal) is useless without it. Custom Ship needs to be better or useful in some other way, so that the ACF can enhance it instead of be mandatory to use it. I don't know how to make BB/real x-class work better, it's something I've been thinking about for a long time.

-The only thing that should be toned down on the reals are the current top weapons (any more problematic weapons on arsenals or just in-built?)
-You also said that the real generics are too weak, should they be buffed up as well?
Top level AC is the other big issue with reals - anything but another Real (and even them sometimes) need Strike or tons of buffs to hit them. Another way to look at the issue is that at the top level, the roll barely matters at all - it's all an arms race between TH and AC, and AC wins in the end. Generics don't need a buff, they're only weak compared to pre-built reals. Compared to other classes they're pretty reasonable.

e needs to be a simple option. I understand your group prefers deeper customization, but there's also people out there that want to be able to just pick a mecha with stats already prepared with a bunch of weapons and go to town.
I can accept that on Reals being the drop-in-and-go option. If the pre-built Reals weren't so far ahead of the generics it would actually feel like they have much more choice now that there are more generics per tier than pre-built models. I'm not questioning that role, just the fact that they don't stand out in any way other than numbers. I guess what it comes down to is that Real Pilot is the only class without a truly unique class feature. Even Super Robot, the other "vanilla" class, has Favored Maneuver to distinguish itself from the Super-based classes. That's about as small a point of customization as can be, but it's something to draw you in.

Ditto for battleships, they're supposed to be simple mobile bases with a bunch of big guns (that surprisingly are just about as effective as smaller mecha weapons) supporting from behind. Yamato and Neo Nautilius are the exception in the series, not the rule, and thus at best should be ACFs.
As for BBs... I know they're like that in the games, but that's exactly the problem. In the games, the player controls lots of units, and BBs are few and far between. This lets you (the player) focus the fun on the more varied mecha. In tabletop, someone is dedicated to largely a single character, and if that class is boring, there isn't something else to do. I don't think every BB needs to be as broken as the Yamato, that's just an example of why some BBs are fun in their own right - they're able to proactively contribute.

Now the main problem seems that there's not enough real options, in particular since you claim generics are too weak. I can go work on more reals, buff the generics if that's the case.
More real options would certainly help across the board. Generics are only weak statistically by comparison to the pre-built Reals - they're reasonable until the very top level compared to other classes.

Also we can make more prcs a la Star Sniper to offer further customization paths for reals. Another idea I had floating around was a real-only self-engineering feat for reals to represent stuff like Amuro who can tweak their machines (and only their machines) a bit during downtime.
Exclusive feats was actually something I was going to bring up in the future, since a few classes are still missing them. That's certainly something that could help.

And yes, mechas with fixed stats should have slightly higher raw power, because mechas with customizeable stats will end up being, well, more customizeable and be able to make up for the raw difference with better synergies. Now if the difference is too big it needs to be toned down, but again I would like you to tell me what's the ideal "middle point" that would be best to aim at. Einst Queen numbers since you claimed it to be the one with no problems?
In the end, yes, a Real will have better default stats than any other class. It's just a matter of degree. I think the first four or five tiers of generic Reals are about the sweet spot. They start with stats commensurate with or a bit ahead of other classes, and then customize with weapons and accessories to taste.

Einst Queen isn't really a good example for balance, because it gets its strength from multitudes rather than raw numbers, see below.

Although now that I think about it, it's a bit weird to me that you claim Einst Queen's pretty cool but Real Pilot's too limited. Why? Einst Queen drone list is smaller than the real robot list, the list of bioweapons and mutations is also shorter than the list of arsenal weapons and accessories, and to pick up the mutations you need to give up on maneuver/spellcasting progression. The way I see it, the Einst Queen's even more limited than the Real Pilot and one of the things in my to-do list is expanding the drones/bioweapons/mutation lists.

So what is it exactly that makes you like the einst queen but not the real pilot? If we can pinpoint that key difference, it would be a great help.
Einst drones do indeed start with limited models and can by default can only be modified with Bioweapons (like Arsenal weapons). They're individually weaker than mecha, but that's fine since they make up for it in quantity. The reason that's not a problem is that Einst are different from everything else. I think the three queen types are a strength there, not a weakness. The reason they're interesting is that precisely what you point out - each Queen type interacts with the drones differently (mutations/maneuvers/spells). Einst Queen is almost three classes in one, or one class with two major ACFs. Adaptive queen is the most limited there, but the some of the options it gets are still distinct from anything available to other classes. There are also more choices than it seems just by looking - consider how many accessories are "the last one but better". On top of that, the ability to make the drones have different types and levels mean that at any given Einst Queen level you have a wider array of actual build options than it would seem by looking at a single drone. The Einst Queen feats give you a wide variety of tactical options if you want them. Einst Queens also don't suffer from the key disadvantage of other classes when they cross with Reals, because they still get to use the rest of their class features in a way that doesn't make it seem like they switched their primary playstyle to be Real-based.

Online oslecamo

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #281 on: November 11, 2018, 08:25:27 AM »
If you don't mind me asking, how can the real/super hybrid be below the pure real? Because the hybrid should be able to do all that the real does but with upgrade customization on top.
Somehow I had it in my head that they lose their arsenal access, but that only applies to Soul Soldier, not the base classes. The main point of differentiation between Reals and the Real/Super hybrids is maneuvers and bonus feats vs their class features. In retrospect though, you're right: Statistically, Techno Thief and Magitech Knight are potentially the most powerful base classes in raw mecha numbers, mitigated somewhat by the Stolen System quirk and Code of Conduct respectively. I'll need to think about that in more detail. That said, bringing Reals down in power somewhat would mean that they're naturally just like playing a Real/Super x-class with some flavor instead of just being Better.
Ok, thanks.

This is the source of much of the frustration you've heard from us over the years. Much of our feedback has revolved around the Super/Real dichotomy - reducing the power on high-level weapons that only reals can truly access, and giving Supers access to options to keep up with Reals in more ways. Battleship is now even further behind as a result, and I suggest looking into ways to improve BB build variety.
Ok, so just to make sure I'm understanding your points properly, you're suggesting to:
-Supers/battleships should be buffed up numbers-wise (with battleships getting greater boosts).
-Battleship multiclassing with real/super too weak, buff up.
-Battleshiip combat ACF too weak, buff up.
-Battleships need more build options.
BBs need numerical boosts in TH primarily, but I'll let others dive into those details. Supers mostly don't need buffs if the top level to-hit, damage, and AC (especially this) on Reals come down somewhat. BB combat ACF is reasonable for itself, the problem is more that the Custom Ship feature (Arsenal) is useless without it. Custom Ship needs to be better or useful in some other way, so that the ACF can enhance it instead of be mandatory to use it. I don't know how to make BB/real x-class work better, it's something I've been thinking about for a long time.
Ok, so something like every 2 captain levels grant +1 to hit with the base weapons? Or maybe different progressions for each, +2 per level for anti-air, +1 per level for missiles, +1/2 level for Beam cannon.

Battleships do have one hardpoint and Custom Ship grants arsenal access to use that hardpoint.

I could grant full arsenal progression for battleships so they can put their hardpoint to better use.

Will try to think of something for real/captain multiclass (could just pump up the raw numbers I guess).

-The only thing that should be toned down on the reals are the current top weapons (any more problematic weapons on arsenals or just in-built?)
-You also said that the real generics are too weak, should they be buffed up as well?
Top level AC is the other big issue with reals - anything but another Real (and even them sometimes) need Strike or tons of buffs to hit them. Another way to look at the issue is that at the top level, the roll barely matters at all - it's all an arms race between TH and AC, and AC wins in the end. Generics don't need a buff, they're only weak compared to pre-built reals. Compared to other classes they're pretty reasonable.
Something I don't understand here, generic Dodge+Natural Armor only lags 2 points behind named reals. And then there's a bunch of smaller generics that will make them harder to hit, while named reals don't go below small and several are large/huge and even the gargantuan Banpreios that will end up with actually worst AC than generics. Doubly so because generics get as much if not more hardpoints than named reals in average.

Assuming no hardpoints, the named reals should be a bit behind basic supers (real +22 between dodge and natural armor vs super 24 from 2 base +2x11  from plating/dodge).
Assuming hardpoints, the generics have more of them to spend around. So how exactly are the named ones pulling ahead?

Speaking of which Ckirk's table leads me to believe your group seems to have missed the clauses for heavier arsenal shields/armors. In particular the arsenal shields can be negated by simple flanking or making the target flat-flooted, while the heavier armors halve/negate Dodge bonus, and both have extra penalties for the higher grades like the bigger shields preventing from using multiple weapons while the bigger armors slow the mecha down.

If you consider that the penalties are not significant enough, I can go reduce the AC bonus of the heavier arsenal shields/armors.

But again, the generics would still end up with about the same AC, and if I reduce the base AC of the named reals then the generics would pull (further) ahead.

e needs to be a simple option. I understand your group prefers deeper customization, but there's also people out there that want to be able to just pick a mecha with stats already prepared with a bunch of weapons and go to town.
I can accept that on Reals being the drop-in-and-go option. If the pre-built Reals weren't so far ahead of the generics it would actually feel like they have much more choice now that there are more generics per tier than pre-built models. I'm not questioning that role, just the fact that they don't stand out in any way other than numbers. I guess what it comes down to is that Real Pilot is the only class without a truly unique class feature. Even Super Robot, the other "vanilla" class, has Favored Maneuver to distinguish itself from the Super-based classes. That's about as small a point of
customization as can be, but it's something to draw you in.
Hmmm, how about favored feats? Aka the real pilot would be able to count as having extra picks of some multi-pick feats, including being able to go over the normal caps. So Favored Feat +1(Counter) would allow the real pilot to have Counter x2 even if they're below PL 4 for example.

Ditto for battleships, they're supposed to be simple mobile bases with a bunch of big guns (that surprisingly are just about as effective as smaller mecha weapons) supporting from behind. Yamato and Neo Nautilius are the exception in the series, not the rule, and thus at best should be ACFs.
As for BBs... I know they're like that in the games, but that's exactly the problem. In the games, the player controls lots of units, and BBs are few and far between. This lets you (the player) focus the fun on the more varied mecha. In tabletop, someone is dedicated to largely a single character, and if that class is boring, there isn't something else to do. I don't think every BB needs to be as broken as the Yamato, that's just an example of why some BBs are fun in their own right - they're able to proactively contribute.
More acuratte weapons should help with that.

Something else that's been floating around my mind would be a feat to make the Leader feat more proactive, as in instead of a flat +X to attack/AC you could change the bonus around for more offense or more defense or extra movement. I could make it scale up with captain levels.

Now the main problem seems that there's not enough real options, in particular since you claim generics are too weak. I can go work on more reals, buff the generics if that's the case.
More real options would certainly help across the board. Generics are only weak statistically by comparison to the pre-built Reals - they're reasonable until the very top level compared to other classes.
Generics good compared to non-reals, that's good to hear... But then what exactly pushing named reals so much ahead in your opinion? Again, in something like AC they're actually pretty close, and the other raw values shouldn't be that different (besides the smaller generics that get significantly reduced HP, but G.U.N.D.A.M.S and V.A.L.K.Y.R.I.E.S are quite close, actually pulling ahead of the squishier named reals). The only significant advantage of the named reals to me seems to be the in-built weapons (plus some specials like regeneration, but then it's a case-by-case problem).

Also we can make more prcs a la Star Sniper to offer further customization paths for reals. Another idea I had floating around was a real-only self-engineering feat for reals to represent stuff like Amuro who can tweak their machines (and only their machines) a bit during downtime.
Exclusive feats was actually something I was going to bring up in the future, since a few classes are still missing them. That's certainly something that could help.
Funny since Reals right now have Real Rank and supers don't have any exclusive feat. :p

And yes, mechas with fixed stats should have slightly higher raw power, because mechas with customizeable stats will end up being, well, more customizeable and be able to make up for the raw difference with better synergies. Now if the difference is too big it needs to be toned down, but again I would like you to tell me what's the ideal "middle point" that would be best to aim at. Einst Queen numbers since you claimed it to be the one with no problems?
In the end, yes, a Real will have better default stats than any other class. It's just a matter of degree. I think the first four or five tiers of generic Reals are about the sweet spot. They start with stats commensurate with or a bit ahead of other classes, and then customize with weapons and accessories to taste.

Einst Queen isn't really a good example for balance, because it gets its strength from multitudes rather than raw numbers, see below.

Although now that I think about it, it's a bit weird to me that you claim Einst Queen's pretty cool but Real Pilot's too limited. Why? Einst Queen drone list is smaller than the real robot list, the list of bioweapons and mutations is also shorter than the list of arsenal weapons and accessories, and to pick up the mutations you need to give up on maneuver/spellcasting progression. The way I see it, the Einst Queen's even more limited than the Real Pilot and one of the things in my to-do list is expanding the drones/bioweapons/mutation lists.

So what is it exactly that makes you like the einst queen but not the real pilot? If we can pinpoint that key difference, it would be a great help.
Einst drones do indeed start with limited models and can by default can only be modified with Bioweapons (like Arsenal weapons). They're individually weaker than mecha, but that's fine since they make up for it in quantity. The reason that's not a problem is that Einst are different from everything else. I think the three queen types are a strength there, not a weakness. The reason they're interesting is that precisely what you point out - each Queen type interacts with the drones differently (mutations/maneuvers/spells). Einst Queen is almost three classes in one, or one class with two major ACFs. Adaptive queen is the most limited there, but the some of the options it gets are still distinct from anything available to other classes. There are also more choices than it seems just by looking - consider how many accessories are "the last one but better". On top of that, the ability to make the drones have different types and levels mean that at any given Einst Queen level you have a wider array of actual build options than it would seem by looking at a single drone. The Einst Queen feats give you a wide variety of tactical options if you want them. Einst Queens also don't suffer from the key disadvantage of other classes when they cross with Reals, because they still get to use the rest of their class features in a way that doesn't make it seem like they switched their primary playstyle to be Real-based.
So, how would you feel about an option for real pilots to use a lower tier real in return for getting some extra machines of the same reduced tier with "free" elite grunts to pilot them? The grunts get the same stats as the real pilot while close (only main pilot gets spirit but can share with the whole squad), representing close team training, but training replacements wouldn't be that hard.