Author Topic: TRIPLE 9 GISH!(TO/cheesy)  (Read 436 times)

Offline TheEmpyrealDragon

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
TRIPLE 9 GISH!(TO/cheesy)
« on: January 15, 2019, 02:37:35 AM »
Greetings oh forum of minmax and munchkinism.

I come to you today, with a most dreadfully cheesy build.

I have seen many a dual 9s Gish, a triple 9s caster,

But I came across an idea. A challenge handed down to me.  To fit the full Gish benchmark with triple 9s.



And upon this very forum I found the means by which to accomplish this.


Assuming level adjustment buy off, with 32 point buy,

Take a venerable firesouled raptoran Necropolitan.

Ability scores as such, end of progression
Strength:8
Dex:12
Con:-
Int:15
Wis:20
Cha:21

Taking two flaws, severe taint, using the metamagic storm, the dragons blood pool and the otyugh hole. As well as a fiendish contract for two feats

(click to show/hide)

So you end up with, 48 PP, 9th level psionics, 9th level arcane from the sorcerer wizard list, and 9th level Divine from the entire cleric and druid lists. +16 BAB full armor and weapon proficiency, and a whopping 145 hit points.

Is there anything you see that could improve this setup?

EDIT NOTE: replaced hidden talent with militia, swapped overchannel to level 9 feat
EDIT NOTE: replaced versatile spellcaster with sanctum spell
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 02:25:37 AM by TheEmpyrealDragon »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7415
  • (un-) Amazingly Unproductive
    • View Profile
Re: TRIPLE 9 GISH!(TO/cheesy)
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2019, 06:34:32 PM »
Well


... Is there anything you see that could improve this setup?

proofreading would help.

Are you a responder?
If I point out some basics (and by basics , I mean b a s i c s) would you still be able to interact about it?
avatar#3 , gravitational lensing edition ... I'm way on the other side of the universe but look like pretty rings

Offline TheEmpyrealDragon

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: TRIPLE 9 GISH!(TO/cheesy)
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2019, 09:43:02 PM »
Are you a responder?
If I point out some basics (and by basics , I mean b a s i c s) would you still be able to interact about it?


I definitely prefer to respond, and I'm perfectly willing to take criticism. So please elaborate

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7415
  • (un-) Amazingly Unproductive
    • View Profile
Re: TRIPLE 9 GISH!(TO/cheesy)
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2019, 05:16:29 PM »
OK good, your basic idea is sound.
Early access casting is good times.


I'm a psi guy, and right off the bat
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm
... the first sentence.
This changes where Overchannel goes.

Militia feat has a level requirement, which messes with your start.
There are multiple versions floating around, but depending on which one,
may cause a bigger problem with firesoul + skypledged.

Necropolitan at first level = dead.  So that goes later.

Firesoul is LA+3 and Necropolitan costs exp too, meaning LA buy-off
won't be done by level 20.  This makes the build a 19 level build.

Firesoul + Skypledged are not compatible on fluff + r.a.i. ... but
Fire Subtype and Pledgebreaker are compatible on crunch + r.a.w.
Might not work with any particular DM , and see Militia above.


The details of the early access casting aren't my thing.
PlzBreakMyCampaign has the most exacting work-up on that.
Might find something useful there.
avatar#3 , gravitational lensing edition ... I'm way on the other side of the universe but look like pretty rings

Offline TheEmpyrealDragon

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: TRIPLE 9 GISH!(TO/cheesy)
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2019, 07:07:36 PM »
OK good, your basic idea is sound.
Early access casting is good times.


I'm a psi guy, and right off the bat
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm
... the first sentence.
This changes where Overchannel goes.

We actually took hidden talent at level 1 to get psionics from the get go,  would it still work to pick up militia at level 1 and overchannel with our first level of Ardent?


Quote from: awaken_DM_golem
Necropolitan at first level = dead.  So that goes later.

Firesoul is LA+3 and Necropolitan costs exp too, meaning LA buy-off
won't be done by level 20.  This makes the build a 19 level build.


Since level adjustment is 3xlvl for each adjustment down, we could buy off by level 18, as for necropolitan, it's lvl adjustment 0, in theory, if we took necropolitan as a 3rd level we'd be able to start over as a level 1 necropolitan.

As for  fire souled + skypledged, the pledgebreaker only applies directly to SPELLS with the fire description. Not to my own subtype. Fluffwise, holding the template and skypledged simply means you betrayed fire for wind, which you could argue adds built in character hooks to build.


Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7198
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: TRIPLE 9 GISH!(TO/cheesy)
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2019, 08:13:23 PM »
And upon this very forum I found the means by which to accomplish this.
And on behalf of the MMX, I am so incredible sorry for your discovery.

The build does not qualify for Versatile Spellcasting, Spontaneous Spellcasters do no prepared Spells and a Sha'ir prepares Spells like a Wizard with different rules. Earth Spell & Heighten Spell does not allow you to cast 5th level Spells, it makes your a 3rd level Spell's level 5 for the purposes of calculations. According to your post you spent 11 points of Pact Rewards even through the absolute maximum is 9 and I can only imagine what you think "additional" means. Sha'ir is also an Arcane Spellcaster and Skypledged/Sanctified do not progress it any more than a Sorcerer's access to Limited Wish and Mental Pinnacle trivializes triple caster concepts and how Divine Power allowed him to still end up with more BAB.

Is there anything you see that could improve this setup?
Roll of a Mindflayer/Savant and eat some brains. I'd also drop Firesouled for something useful.

Offline TheEmpyrealDragon

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: TRIPLE 9 GISH!(TO/cheesy)
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2019, 02:20:10 AM »

The build does not qualify for Versatile Spellcasting, Spontaneous Spellcasters do no prepared Spells and a Sha'ir prepares Spells like a Wizard with different rules. Earth Spell & Heighten Spell does not allow you to cast 5th level Spells, it makes your a 3rd level Spell's level 5 for the purposes of calculations. According to your post you spent 11 points of Pact Rewards even through the absolute maximum is 9 and I can only imagine what you think "additional" means. Sha'ir is also an Arcane Spellcaster and Skypledged/Sanctified do not progress it any more than a Sorcerer's access to Limited Wish and Mental Pinnacle trivializes triple caster concepts and how Divine Power allowed him to still end up with more BAB.

To address these in order.

I will admit, I made a mistake with versatile spellcaster, the metamagic note of sha'ir threw me off.

As for heighten spell and earth spell, earth spell modifies the effect of heighten spell, which 
Quote
Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies.
, so versatile spellcaster allows me to cast my two 3s as a 4, heighten/earth make the 3 a 5. However upon your point, I will edit to include sanctum spell instead for the same purpose, a 2nd into a third, to make a 4th, sanctum to 5th.

To the 11 point reference
Where did you get 11 points? A feat only costs 4 points, and I only took two feats from my pact.

Sha'ir is an arcane spellcaster however!
Quote
A sha'ir is capable of extraordinarily versatile spellcasting because he can use arcane spells as well as a limited selection of divine spells.
  and also

Quote
Divine Spell: Retrieving a divine spell, known or not, takes a gen ld6 hours + 1 hour per spell level. The gen can retrieve only divine spells from the domains indicated above
their domain spells are still noted as Divine spells, not arcane. Thus, a sha'ir should qualify for Divine prestige classes.

And the sorcerer note... I shall take as sarcasm. However as for Divine might, the argument of Divine might invalidates most gish builds in general, there is little point working for base attack bonus when you argue Divine might.  So for a Gish build i never consider it outside of spell selection

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7198
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: TRIPLE 9 GISH!(TO/cheesy)
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2019, 10:42:53 AM »
To address these in order.
I doubt that.

I wish I could have some kind of awesome educational deal on how you are using "ability to cast x level spells" and how you think using Heighten Spell to make a 3rd level Spell's level count as a 4th in very certain ways is the some thing. But you already missed the layers of saltiness in how Sorcerer using Limited Wish to cast a Divine Spell doesn't make him a Divine Spellcaster or how arguing otherwise pretty much pushes your post into obsoletion.

But I can try again.
I will edit to include sanctum spell instead for the same purpose, a 2nd into a third, to make a 4th, sanctum to 5th.
Quote from: An official rule's source, which I value far more than your personal opinion, says
Can you use sanctum to pick a higher level spell than normal with the Extra Spell feat?
No, you would need to use your class’s spellcasting progression when picking the new spell learned via the Extra Spell feat, not including the benefit of the sanctum spell or similar effects.
It's almost like the "ability to cast X level spells" isn't a measurement of producing an end result but like some kind of measurement of a rules granted ability right? Pfft, what were they thinking. Now excuse me, my opinion on what the message should be instead of what it is says my Rogue with UMD is a quintuple caster and I have TO to post.

P.S. "Extra slot(fiendish contract)" Made me think it was a Pact choice.

Offline TheEmpyrealDragon

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: TRIPLE 9 GISH!(TO/cheesy)
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2019, 02:03:03 PM »
For the spell level, I was actually looking at the early entry handbook by PlzBreakMyCampaign,

I've never seen the quote you posted about sanctum spell. But yes, I've long viewed that heighten spell saying "actually increases the effective level" and the cleric example of hold person "in all ways be treated as a 4th level spell" to mean yes, it counts.

I didn't miss the saltiness I even stated i assumed it was sarcasm.

And the Extra slot was intended to mean the extra slot feat, not the pact granted extra slot.

Offline magic9mushroom

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 36
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: TRIPLE 9 GISH!(TO/cheesy)
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2019, 08:08:53 PM »
I must confess I don't see how you're getting triple 9s. Sanctified Mind advances divine or psionic, not both. Also, I don't see how you're getting a manifester level of 17; even if you pick Ardent for all five advancements from Sanctified Mind, and Overchannel is assumed to count (this is a little shaky) you'll only have 7 + 4 (Practiced Manifester) + 3 (Overchannel) = 14.

Offline nijineko

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2283
  • two strange quarks short of a graviton....
    • View Profile
    • Ask me
Re: TRIPLE 9 GISH!(TO/cheesy)
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2019, 11:53:34 PM »
Plus, the ardent boost thing doesn't work per the author. However, to be fair he also said that if it fits your or your DM's campaign, then go for it anyway and have fun.
http://crystalballsoft.com/cblite.html  The best dice roller on the planet, bar none. Read the FAQ to see why.

https://www.box.com/s/du6s5uysdwfony9dfd3p  The Official Complete Psionic Errata.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dbmkg8efcbn4eak/AABSjyTbZIEDdIWm0I_uVFkpa?dl=0 The Archive.

Offline magic9mushroom

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 36
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: TRIPLE 9 GISH!(TO/cheesy)
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2019, 07:52:36 AM »
There's also the issue that the standard gish benchmark is not really meaningful for Clerics (or Ur-Priests). Divine Power sets your BAB = HD regardless of its natural value, it explicitly grants iteratives, and it's a valid target for DMM Persist (or ordinary Persist, if you have a metamagic cost reducer). The only real noteworthy accomplishment for gish Clerics is to get proficiency with all martial weapons.

Speaking of getting proficiency with all martial weapons, this build has a fatal hole (beyond the fact that it doesn't work, I mean). Militia is illegal due to the character being a Raptoran, and thus neither a Halfling, Half-Elf or Human. Without Militia, they do not qualify for Sanctified Mind.