Author Topic: What was this item called? Vaguely remembered delevel + restore XP exploit  (Read 209 times)

Offline mrttao

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I am vaguely remembering a devel + restore XP exploit and wondering if someone could point me at the item/spells involved.

IIRC it went something like:
1. Be a level 20 wizard. (for example, its not the only way to do it, can be a bit lower level and a different class)
2. Use [item/spell that makes item], recording your current memories/level/XP against potential losses
3. get a reliable controlled source of level drain.
4. level drain yourself to 19 negative levels.
5. choose to intentionally fail saving throws, you are now truly level 1 in every way.
6. touch [item], you are instantly restored to the same XP as before, but not automatically restored to the same class and levels. You now level up with whatever classes you choose. such as level 1 wizard + level 19 sorcerer, or level 19 psion, or level 19 cleric, or level 19 druid, or level 19 artificer.
7. when done doing whatever needed that other class, repeat the process and return to your default build

Does someone else recognize this and can tell me which item/spell was involved in this?

Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Thought Bottle, Complete Arcane.
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Offline mrttao

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Thought Bottle, Complete Arcane.

thank you. reading through it. the relevant functionality is the storage of experience
Quote from: complate arcane p150
Experience: A thought bottle can be used to offset level loss as a restoration spell can, but is effective against level loss that even restoration can’t undo (including levels lost due to death, but not the negative levels bestowed by magic items such as a holy weapon). When a user’s experience has been stored within the bottle, he can subsequently access the bottle to restore his XP total to exactly what it was when it was last stored, negating any levels lost in the interim. Storing experience in the bottle is diffi cult, and the user must pay 500 XP (deducted before storing) to do so. Only the creature that stored experience can retrieve it, but if the bottle is destroyed or lost, the user suffers no ill effects.
That... would take some pretty loose interpretation to say it gives back XP you can assign to any level you choose instead of regaining the same classes as before.

Offline snakeman830

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Not so much.  So far as I know, there is no rule whatsoever saying that you must re-take the same class levels after level loss.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Not so much.  So far as I know, there is no rule whatsoever saying that you must re-take the same class levels after level loss.
Pretty much true but there is a difference.

Like for example, WotC thought so highly of the 339's ability to deliberately misread "restore a lost level" to mean "gain anything you feel like" they actually provided an answer in the FAQ.
Quote
When a character dies and comes back to life a level lower, are there any guidelines as to which level he must lose? Does it have to be the last level he gained? When he gains a level again later, can he choose a different class than he did originally? What about a 1st-level character (who instead loses a point of Constitution)? Can he begin with a new class completely?
The rules are silent on this issue, but it seems most logical if the character loses the class level he gained most recently. The same is true of any feats, skill ranks, or ability score adjustments gained due to the now-lost level. The character is under no obligation to make the same selection(s) when he next gains a level with XP.
A character who regains a lost level from restoration or a similar effect must regain the same class level (and other abilities) that he lost. In other words, you can’t use level drain and restoration to rebuild your character. A 1st-level character doesn’t lose a class level, so he can’t change his existing class level.
So, does the Thought Bottle work anything like Restoration or does it give you freebie level ups?

You need a middle exchange, like Rebuild or Retrain or Psychic Reformation(?) or regrind out the XP the normal way (or skip it all and use fusion on ice assassins).
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 07:03:55 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline snakeman830

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Not so much.  So far as I know, there is no rule whatsoever saying that you must re-take the same class levels after level loss.
Pretty much true but there is a difference.

Like for example, WotC thought so highly of the 339's ability to deliberately misread "restore a lost level" to mean "gain anything you feel like" they actually provided an answer in the FAQ.
Quote
When a character dies and comes back to life a level lower, are there any guidelines as to which level he must lose? Does it have to be the last level he gained? When he gains a level again later, can he choose a different class than he did originally? What about a 1st-level character (who instead loses a point of Constitution)? Can he begin with a new class completely?
The rules are silent on this issue, but it seems most logical if the character loses the class level he gained most recently. The same is true of any feats, skill ranks, or ability score adjustments gained due to the now-lost level. The character is under no obligation to make the same selection(s) when he next gains a level with XP.
A character who regains a lost level from restoration or a similar effect must regain the same class level (and other abilities) that he lost. In other words, you can’t use level drain and restoration to rebuild your character. A 1st-level character doesn’t lose a class level, so he can’t change his existing class level.
So, does the Thought Bottle work anything like Restoration or does it give you freebie level ups?

You need a middle exchange, like Rebuild or Retrain or Psychic Reformation(?) or regrind out the XP the normal way (or skip it all and use fusion on ice assassins).

A good question, as the Thought Bottle sets your XP to a certain value while Restoration specifically restores the minimum amount to restore a drained level.  I can see arguments either way.
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Offline linklord231

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Wait so according to the FAQ, if you get level drained and then kill monsters to gain XP, you could level up in any class, but if you use Restoration you must make the same choices you did before?  That doesn't make a lot of sense. 
What's supposed to happen if you get level drained, gain a level by XP, and then get a Restoration? 
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Offline Nytemare3701

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Wait so according to the FAQ, if you get level drained and then kill monsters to gain XP, you could level up in any class, but if you use Restoration you must make the same choices you did before?  That doesn't make a lot of sense. 
What's supposed to happen if you get level drained, gain a level by XP, and then get a Restoration?

That sounds totally consistent if you look at level drain as something literally draining away your experiences. In your most recent level, you gained a feat. It gets drained, you lose access to that feat. If you go train for a while you can choose to learn anything you want, but if you get hit with a restoration you are given back the exact experiences that were taken from you.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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but if you use Restoration you must make the same choices you did before?  That doesn't make a lot of sense.

Really? What makes more sense.
Quote
This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels negative levels and restores one experience level to a creature who has had a level drained. The drained level is restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is equal to or less than one day per caster level. Thus, if a 10th-level character has been struck by a wight and drained to 9th level, restoration brings the character up to exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary to restore him to 10th level (45,000 XP), gaining him an additional Hit Die and level functions accordingly. ... Restoration does not restore levels or Constitution points lost due to death.

Restore (verb): bring back (a previous right, practice, custom, or situation); reinstate.
    "the government restored confidence in the housing market"
    synonyms:   reinstate, put back, replace, bring back, reinstitute, reimpose, reinstall, rehabilitate, re-establish, return to a former position/state
    "his aim was to restore democracy in the country"
    "The cleric used restoration to return the level the barbarian lost while fighting a vampire."

The (determiner): denoting one or more people or things already mentioned or assumed to be common knowledge.
* used to refer to a person, place, or thing that is unique.
    "the Queen"
* denoting a disease or affliction.
    "I've got the flu"
* (with a unit of time) the present; the current.
    "dish of the day"
* used instead of a possessive to refer to someone with whom the speaker or person addressed is associated.
    "I'm meeting the boss"
Or
Quote
False equivalence – describing a situation of logical and apparent equivalence, when in fact there is none.
    "Casting Restoring is just like gaining XP..."
Affirming the consequent – the antecedent in an indicative conditional is claimed to be true because the consequent is true; if A, then B; B, therefore A.
    "...Because they both give you levels."
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 12:23:15 PM by SorO_Lost »