Author Topic: Mystic Theurge Help  (Read 172 times)

Offline valen0121

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Mystic Theurge Help
« on: January 14, 2020, 02:17:32 AM »
I'm getting ready to join a Kingmaker campaign that started a couple of weeks ago and I'm looking for some advice. I'm coming in at level 2, so i wil be playng a human cleric 1/wizard 1. My deity will be Nethys and his  domains will be arcane and defense. For my wizard side, I'm trying to decide on taking the archetype exploiter wizard or Arcane School – Universalist (subschool Arcanamirium Crafter).

Pathfinder
Attributes - 25 point buy
Feats - Eclectic, Fast Learner
Traits - Magical Knack (Wizard), Seeker
Wealth 3,000 gp

Eventually I hope to make it to cleric 3/wizard 7/mystic theurge 10

Other Party Members
Human Magus
Elf Shifter
Kitsune Kineticist
Lashunta Druid
Ratfolk Rogue


Thanks,
Valen
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 01:42:08 PM by valen0121 »

Offline Power

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Re: Mystic Theurge Help
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2020, 01:06:29 PM »
This is what the Min Max It! subforum is for, to be honest. I assume you are running Pathfinder-only and get regular 2nd level WBL, yes? What is your point buy? If it's 15 points I'd probably ditch Mystic Theurge since you can't get 20 in both casting stats and your alternative is to get even slower progression by using spontaneous casting classes so you can be a pure charisma or pure wisdom build. And what is the character concept you are going for?

Exploiter Wizard (take Potent Magic exploit) >>> Universalist Wizard unless you really want to use an Amulet of Magecraft (but you can UMD that into working anyway if you want). You can re-obtain the familiar/arcane bond with Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) anyway. And Ecclesitheurge Cleric is probably best if you are going to enter Mystic Theurge, considering that you won't be wearing shields or armor anyway. Also, Nethys is a bit of a weak pick for a patron deity, truth be told. His domains aren't very impressive. Do you specifically want your character to worship Nethys or is there a more general character concept you are going for?

You will need to start with 20 wis and 20 int imo, which will make the rest of your stats a bit awkward, especially given the lack of favored class bonus. You may want to pick up a Toughness feat at level 1. The only races that give both +2 int and +2 wis are Dual-Talented Humans (which give up both their bonus feat and their extra skill ranks for this) and Samsarans (which give -2 constitution, but let you pick up Mystic Past Life which is a massive improvement to your spell list). Once you enter Mystic Theurge, you should burn all your feats on Lesser Spell Synthesis (and consider retraining previous feats into more Lesser Spell Synthesis) until you unlock Spell Synthesis at which point you should burn them on Extra Spell Synthesis instead and retrain all your Lesser Spell Synthesis feats into Extra Spell Synthesis feats. Without Lesser Spell Synthesis, the Mystic Theurge prestige class is hot garbage and you shouldn't take it unless you're doing Spirit Whisperer 5 alternate entry maybe. The loss of 3 spellcasting levels is too catastrophic to be worth it over a single-classed spellcaster.

It is possible to advance Mystic Theurge past level 10 using the Evangelist prestige class to do so, but the dead level will lock you out of obtaining 9th level spells, unless you are using Spirit Whisperer Wizard 5 (Arcane Enlightenment Hex) to enter Mystic Theurge with only a single level of Cleric or your GM permits you to use the Prestigious Spellcaster feat to repair the dead level in Evangelist (even though it technically doesn't explicitly have a spells per day feature, but then the Evangelist's aligned class feature technically gives it the spells per day class feature of the mystic theurge class), which would let you have 9th level spells in both classes at level 20. I don't recommend going Evangelist until after you have done a full 10 levels of Mystic Theurge, since you are already behind 4 spell levels and don't want to be behind even more.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 02:19:13 PM by Power »

Offline valen0121

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Re: Mystic Theurge Help
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2020, 01:49:41 PM »
The DM is not allowing any early entry methosd that are out there. 

Offline Power

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Re: Mystic Theurge Help
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2020, 02:09:48 PM »
It's alternate entry rather than early entry. You'd still be entering at level 7 (technically you could enter early at level 6 but it would be thoroughly unproductive to do so, as you would only have 1 spellcasting class). Regardless, as long as you can get Lesser Spell Synthesis feats the Mystic Theurge prestige class is fine. Losing your feats and gaining dual-casting is an acceptable compensation for losing 3 spellcasting levels.

Eclectic and Fast Learner are garbage feats and you're not getting 2 feats at level 1 regardless of which option you choose to get 20 in both stats. Favored class bonuses do not advance with prestige classes (which is frankly a severe penalty for those spontaneous casters who use their favored class bonus for extra spells known) so those are two feats going completely down the drain. With 25 point buy you are looking at either 7str-9dex-10con-18int-18wis-7cha or 7str-7dex-13con-18int-18wis-7cha. You can go either Samsaran (and use Mystic Past Life to filch spells from Druid or Witch lists - or if you are feeling cheesy from Summoner, Inquisitor, Bard, or Paladin for discounts to spell levels) or Dual-Talented Human (and avoid taking -2 con) to get +2 int and +2 wis. You should also take a drawback (like Meticulous or Anxious) for a third trait (like Reactionary for +2 initiative).

You still haven't explained the character concept you are going for and whether you consider it a must to worship Nethys.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 02:34:59 PM by Power »

Offline valen0121

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Re: Mystic Theurge Help
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2020, 02:31:14 PM »
My character concept is going to be a scholar of knowledge and magic. My ultimate goal to to crack the impenetrable seal around the Skywatch settlement. The DM likes my character concept. I know he plans on starting me with a few minor magic items and double the amount of 1st level spells in my starting spellbook. You are right about the feats eclectic and fast learning being a waste. I will definitely go with the exploiter wizard archetype and take potent magic.

I forgot add that I will be a member a spellcaster guild (from Inner Sea Magic page 22).


Thanks,
Valen
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 02:33:55 PM by valen0121 »

Offline Power

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Re: Mystic Theurge Help
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2020, 04:31:21 PM »
Hang on, is the Esoteric Training guild boon (with spellcaster progression) in the cards? Because that dramatically raises the power of Mystic Theurge. It's widely considered very broken, although usually it is done more as a free spellcaster gestalt by dipping for ridiculous perks that you could otherwise not afford than as a way of papering over the MT's weaknesses. Still a massive boost in power, however. Your character concept on the whole sounds more like something for a Spell Sage Wizard, which I suppose you could also use to enter Mystic Theurge. You won't get the +2 to DCs but you do get the ability to cast off of every spell list in the game.

Since your character will have a rather bad AC, your primary defenses are likely to be spells like mirror image, blur, displacement, fickle winds, and proactively disabling your enemies. You will probably want to get a +6 belt of constitution fast. I forgot to mention that you can also retrain hit dice in order to get the max hitpoints of your hit die on each level. So that'll be something to do during downtime. You'll probably need the extra health. False Life also makes a good source of temporary hitpoints. You should get a masterwork bag by the way for the increased carrying capacity.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 03:30:54 AM by Power »

Offline valen0121

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Re: Mystic Theurge Help
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2020, 07:19:56 PM »
Yes they are being allowed.  We are using Hero Lab to build characters and the DM is allowing max hit points per level.

Magic items from the DM are bracers of armor +2, ring of protection +1, wand of magic missiles, and 4 potions of cure light wounds.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 09:21:06 PM by valen0121 »

Offline Power

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Re: Mystic Theurge Help
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2020, 05:28:55 PM »
+2 Bracers of Armor are pretty worthless when you can cast a basic Mage Armor spell that provides 4 AC. The lower level bracers are more useful for special properties (like Spell Storing) than as a source of raw AC when you can just cast Mage Armor anyway. Also your character will have something like 7 or 8 dex instead of the 16+ you want to have solid AC as a mage. Wand of magic missiles competes with cantrips in usefulness, frankly, and is probably more useful as vendor loot than if you were to actually use it. In essence the Ring of Protection +1 and 4 potions of cure light wounds are the neat things you have to look forward to. Investing into AC gets very expensive for dubious returns, so it's typically better to abandon AC, invest in high constitution (get that +6 belt asap) and stack temporary hitpoints (Death Knell spell) on top while using methods to avoid getting hit at all, like blur, displacement, mirror image, invisibility, or plain old stealth. There's the Wisdom in the Flesh religion trait that can be used to turn Stealth into a wisdom-based class skill, but it requires you to worship Irori, which is probably not a very good deity for a Cleric, but it opens up stealth as an option. There's also the Disciplined Body and Balanced Education to make various rolls into wis instead, but they only work once a day (you can get both or even all three though). Disciplined Body does let you use wis for a reflex roll once per day though, so that's a +6 (or more) to reflex save when you need it most.

The Trickery domain lets you make a single mirror image as a move action, which will be less useful once you start using Lesser Spell Synthesis to consume full-round actions for dualcasting, but it should help you survive the lower levels. If you are dedicated to developing AC as a Mystic Theurge with terrible dex, you will want to avoid Ecclesitheurge because you'll want to wear a buckler made of mithral or singing steel. A light steel buckler made of singing steel would give you no armor penalty or arcane spell failure chance, giving you +1 to AC at all times. +2 AC if you make it a +1 singing steel buckler. The downside is that with 8 dex, singing steel buckler, mage armor spell, and ring of protection +1, you will still only have 15 AC (you can get more AC with the Barkskin spell though - obtained through domain or mystic past life). You can also use the Shield spell for +4 shield bonus to AC (does not stack with shields), which is better than an actual shield until you get a +4 shield at least, but unlike Mage Armor the Shield spell is something you have to cast in combat. Part of the trouble with Mystic Theurge builds is how few stats you have left over to do other things. Ecclesitheurge does have the benefit of letting you change your second domain when needed, including into the Conversion inquisition (Clerics can take Inquisitions as domains; it is simply typically a poor choice because it gives you no spells, only inquisition powers.) and then acting as the party face. But there are other ways to be a party face as a wis-based class. You can turn diplomacy into a wis-based skill with Empathic Diplomat or bluff with Cunning Liar (if you want both, you will need to use an exemplar trait and the Additional Traits feat), and you can also get ranks in Profession (Barrister) and Profession (Courtier) to talk your way out of difficult spaces. That's for Wis-based; the Clever Wordplay social trait can make any cha-based skill int-based instead and Student of Philosophy social trait will make both diplomacy and bluff int-based for social uses (but not for gathering information or feinting in combat). I'm mentioning all of this because your party lacks a good talker, it seems. If you take Student of Philosophy trait (and maybe some of those professions) you can be the party face pretty easily even without the Conversion inquisition.

The other stunt to raise AC is if you get the Protector archetype on your familiar (extra exploit for Bloodline Development for Arcane for familiar as 1st-level Wizard), the familiar can boost your AC too, but if you want 5 levels of wizard to share damage with it, you have to get the familiar through a feat (Eldritch Heritage is probably not in the cards given the charisma prerequisite, so that would mean Iron Will > Familiar Bond > Improved Familiar Bond). You can also pump your familiar's Aid Another check with Benevolent armor (animal barding) and Ring of Tactical Precision (Benevolent armor is cheaper at first; also, use hand of glory necklace or have it replace a starting feat with Extra Item Slot if no ring slot exists). The amount of feats invested here is a bit unpleasant unless you're going strictly for a Familiar as 1st-level Wizard.

So what are the changes and directions you are currently leaning towards, with regards to race, stats, trait, feats, armor, archetype?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 09:14:40 PM by Power »