Author Topic: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?  (Read 703 times)

Offline ClayQ

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[3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« on: January 31, 2020, 12:47:13 AM »
We're in the middle of a Rise of the Runelords and my first character just died forcing me to make a new character at level 11. I'm looking for some advice on must have spells (obscure ones as opposed to the expected ones) for wands, and which build path I should play. We play in a 3.P setting allowing most all of 3.5 wotc material and pathfinder 1st party, dragon mag is generally a no go but is case by case. The house rule is that we have to own the physical copy of the book (We're lacking some of the Pathfinder companions but if its good enough for my build I'll buy it, its how we expand our collection).

The current party consists of: A PF Bard using the Core Rulebook only, A DFI Bardblade using Dawnflower Dervish to double the double selfishly, Archery based Fighter

My new character is an eccentric wizard who "conceals" his wizardly-ness by using wands instead of casting spells. You know An Abra'Kadabra Wizard! Unless I am forced to "up the powerlevel" because the party needs the optimization increase I will be using all spell slots generally through the Channel Charge feat, the main reason the build uses wizard is to get the Staff-like wand discovery eventually.

I have two similar build paths in mind that offer different things at level 11 and basically the same at level 16.

Metamagic Focus
(click to show/hide)

Caster-Level Focus
(click to show/hide)

Some things I'll for sure be having in both builds include

Wands of Haste Created by a Trapsmith
Wand of Restoration (Single Charge)
Wand of Last Breath (Single Charge)
Wand of Visualization of the Mind (Single Charge)
Wand of Bestow Insight

Assortment of Single Charge wands instead of spells scribed to my spellbook
Efficient Quivers, Wand Hilt Daggers and Lesser weapon crystals Oh, My.

I pretty sure on dropping the Incantrix build at this point unless someone points out a super good 4th level spell for persisting daily. Any must have spell advice or suggestions on where to go after wizard 11? (Also something to do productive with spell slots above 5th would be good too. I'll likely end up having to rotate to using a decent number of staves to keep the gimmick up progressing forward or just drop the gimmick)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 04:18:15 PM by ClayQ »
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2020, 11:21:14 PM »
Check out the Staff-like Wand arcane discovery for the wizard (or arcanist)

Theres only 1 PrC that I ever use w a wizard. Evangelist, use Prestigious Spellcaster feat to get back the lost casting level.
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Offline ClayQ

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Re: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2020, 04:39:19 PM »
Im actually using staff-like wand in the build. Ill take a look at evanaglist. Thabks for the suggestion.
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2020, 08:14:50 PM »
One reason to choose the evangelist over other PrCs, you still get your free spells/level. Most dont give you them.
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Offline Power

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Re: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2020, 05:08:37 AM »
Check out the Staff-like Wand arcane discovery for the wizard (or arcanist)

Theres only 1 PrC that I ever use w a wizard. Evangelist, use Prestigious Spellcaster feat to get back the lost casting level.
There's GM variation on that. Some GMs note that Aligned Class is not a "spells per day" feature and therefore it shouldn't work (which is the RAW ruling). Other GMs regard Aligned Class as a super spells per day feature and let it count anyway. If you can get Evangelist PrC with Prestigious Spellcaster, it's a decent pick, but it's not the strongest PrC for Wizards by far. If you are going to do a wand-based Wizard and Prestigious Spellcaster is permitted, I would sooner recommend Pathfinder Savant since a Pathfinder Savant can always take 10 on UMD checks and adds half his PrC level to UMD checks, in addition to being able to poach spells from other classes' spell lists (a feature so powerful that when used for spell discounting it makes the PrC worth taking even with the dead spell level). If you want to have full spellbooks, I would recommend taking Daivrat and maybe using a Cypher Script feat and carrying a Blessed Book. That way you can prepare spells as a Daivrat (if you use Summoner list for discounts) and transcribe them from your spell slots into your spellbook for free.

Honestly Evangelist ranks pretty low on my list of suggested Wizard PrCs, although Prestigious Spellcaster makes it alright. Without the Prestigious Spellcaster feat it's a full-on "avoid" though.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 01:34:57 PM by Power »

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2020, 05:48:47 AM »
I see what you mean about the Prestigious Spellcaster feat's wording and agree. That said, a reasonable GM would work around that for RAI, providing the +1 to just spsll slots and spells known.

.

Winter Witch PrC makes things even more complicated. It has effectively both. It has 9/10 spells per day and 10/10 boost to all witch class features. They forgot to mention that Winter Witchcraft excludes the witch's spellcasting class feature, even post-errata.

But because of the weird advancement,  Prestigious Spellcaster feat would not get 20/10 witch spellcasting only 19/10.

Witch 5 / Winter Witch 1 / Evangelist 10 / Winter Witch +4
5+1+9+9+4 = 28th level witch casting

It's not 32nd level, because the way the winter witch's spells per day reads. It only applies to the noted levels, and doesn't let you extrapolate for higher than 10 class levels like some other PrCs would.

.

I like Evangelist for the express purpose of getting deific boons quicker, while moving at the spellcasting down to that of an arcanist.

There are some phenomenal boons out there (one is a possible tier 0 {that 'turn yourself into a multi-wish trap' one}, and others that can more than make up for the lost 1 CL (like the ghost template or free 9th level heightened limited wish SLA 1/day).

The 3rd boon goes from 20th down to as early as 14th level.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 06:03:52 AM by zook1shoe »
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Offline Power

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Re: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2020, 02:04:06 PM »
I tend to rate Bloatmage, Stargazer, Magaambyan Arcanist, Loremaster, Cyphermage, and Pathfinder Savant as better picks for Wizards than Evangelist, tbh. Veiled Illusionist, Envoy of Balance, Argent Dramaturge, Thuvian Alchemist, and Soul Warden are also rather serviceable picks, depending on the circumstances. If you're looking for a slightly martial bent on your Wizard then Hellknight Signifier is not bad either. If we're unlocking cheese then Demoniac is better than Evangelist.

If we're using Prestigious Spellcaster of course, the list expands further, including Diabolist, Enchanting Courtesan, Souldrinker, Genie Binder, Daivrat, Runeguard, Dragon Disciple maybe (use Arcane Bond to satisfy prereq), and depending on circumstances, Ashavic Dancer.

Generally speaking I would recommend the Magaambyan Arcanist prestige class for Wizards, since it's basically a Wizard Plus.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 02:32:29 PM by Power »

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2020, 10:28:14 AM »
i feel like the Stargazer is one of the best, because you get SOO much from the PrC. Familiar, hexes, revelation, subdomain ability, and customizable constellation powers.
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Offline Power

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Re: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2020, 11:44:54 AM »
I'd rate Magaambyan Arcanist, Loremaster, and Pathfinder Savant higher I think, but doing some mix and match is not a bad idea either. Something like Wizard 5 / Stargazer 2 / Loremaster 1 / Pathfinder Savant the rest of the way is pretty solid, especially if we're throwing in Prestigious Spellcaster. Actually if Prestigious Spellcaster is in the cards I think Mystery Cultist and Demoniac are also good picks. Daivrat probably wins in terms of being the number one class to give yourself a spellbook with the complete wizard list inside it, since it lets you prepare the spells into your spell slots (use Summoner and other class lists for discounts), after which you transcribe them into your spellbook (if the spells are also on your Wizard list), but Loremaster 1 with a lot of Secret of Magical Discipline feats is also great. Conveniently, the Wizard is liable to get a bonus feat on his first level of Loremaster, which helps make up for the feat prerequisites, and you can also hit those prereqs with the Wizard's bonus feats.

I'm personally partial to straight Magaambyan Arcanist since you get some Druid spells, some Cleric spells, some other abusable perks, and a bunch of spontaneous casting on your Wizard. If the GM permits using Prestigious Spellcaster this way, I'd consider Wizard 5 / Magaambyan Arcanist 1 / Evangelist 10, with Evangelist progressing the Magaambyan Arcanist prestige class, but only do this if Prestigious Spellcaster is allowed to work with Evangelist. Wizard 5 / Bloatmage 1 / Evangelist 10 similarly advancing Bloatmage is also good.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 07:22:23 AM by Power »

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2020, 04:23:40 AM »
Never really looked at the Daivrat closely... damn!
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Offline Power

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Re: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2020, 07:37:52 AM »
Daivrat was much higher on my list of strong PrCs before Paizo decided to dole out cross-list access with absurd ease, but it is still nice for filling out complete spellbooks, casting damn near every spell in the game, a free improved familiar, and a free spell focus + greater spell focus in an elemental school of choice. Oddly enough they count as Spell Focus feats instead of Elemental Focus feats, so you can stack Elemental Focus on top if you want high DCs in a particular element. The Elemental Focus feats are annoyingly limited to damage-dealing spells though, unlike the Daivrat.

Offline ClayQ

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Re: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2020, 01:07:18 PM »
Thanks for the input guys. I ended up going with this build (from original post) after covering some details with the DM on the power level he wants in the game.

(click to show/hide)

Just leveled to 12 after last session at our rest point before our game tomorrow night so now actually looking for a PrC to fit into the 9 levels, as I play a gold per adventure character... I use Rod of many wands with MM wands and and fireball wands for the moment while wearing platemail from golden dragonmail spell among other buffs.

Prestigious Spellcaster opens many new options. Again thanks for the input guys.
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Offline Power

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Re: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2020, 01:46:14 PM »
No problem. By the way, if you're going for UMD just prestige into Pathfinder Savant and use Prestigious Spellcaster to solve the dead level. It has the best UMD bonuses, including the ability to take 10 on UMD checks at level 1. 3 levels of Pathfinder Savant followed by Cyphermage is the best way to go if you also want the ability to cast scrolls with full caster level and DC. Being a Dwarf Wizard is odd though. If you wanted to do that I would've sooner recommended going Shaman and using the Arcane Enlightenment wandering hex for Wizard spells, but you don't get to boost wands that way. There are wis-based Mediums (Rivethun Spirit Channeler archetype), Bards (Dwarven Scholar archetype), Sorcerers (Empyreal wild-blooded bloodline), and Paladins (Tortured Crusader archetype), but not Wizards.

Since you're doing 3.P though there is a whole other list of 3.5 options that become worth considering with Prestigious Spellcaster.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 01:55:58 PM by Power »

Offline ClayQ

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Re: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2020, 01:20:54 PM »
Thing about umd. Is wands are a flat dc 20. I use visualization of the mind int daily i hit a 23 or so umd on a nat 1.

As for dwarf, it was almost completely random choice as race provided nothing to the build directly, but oddly has become the largest in character reason behind my character... I traded away a racial for toughness, grabbed a dwarven martial weapon and have casually been the tank for the party with defensive training against giants...
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Offline Power

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Re: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2020, 10:44:57 PM »
Then you're probably fine, although it is worth noting that UMD is odd enough to auto-fail on a nat 1. The Mechanical Aptitude magic trait would also let you reroll UMD once per day, but in that case you would either need to use the Clever Wordplay social trait instead of Pragmatic Activator to make UMD int-based or use an exemplar trait so you can take multiple magic traits. Incidentally, if you don't have UMD as a class skill yet (Wizards do not get UMD as a class skill), most Pathfinder spellcasting prestige classes should provide it. Paizo doesn't seem to understand that UMD is a skill meant for rogue classes rather than spellcasters, since UMD's entire intent and purpose is to allow thieves and the like use magic items that they shouldn't be remotely qualified to use normally.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 10:48:17 PM by Power »

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2020, 02:05:13 AM »
Traveler of a Hundred Lands trait give you 2 skills as class skills, use it on Perception and UMD
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Offline ClayQ

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Re: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2020, 04:58:44 AM »
UMD is not a fail on a 1. Skills don't auto fail on 1's.
 to quote both the 3.5 srd and the pathfinder srd, with bold emphasis
Quote
Try Again
Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can’t try to activate that item again for 24 hours.

"and" comes before "you fail" not after.

Unless there's something somewhere else that edits that, the reading people always use is:"Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item you fail and, then you can’t try to activate that item again for 24 hours." It's a pretty easy miss-read but it is incorrect.

Yes I am missing a +3 from not having it as a class skill, however because we use pathfinder as our base with house rules for 3.5 conversion instead of the other way around I don't suffer from the max ranks being lower. I actually only need 2 or 3 more points to dispel proof my umd check for wands.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 05:01:49 AM by ClayQ »
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Offline Power

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Re: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2020, 06:41:16 AM »
Traveler of a Hundred Lands trait give you 2 skills as class skills, use it on Perception and UMD
Examplar traits require you to give up 2 regular traits. The benefit of them is using Additional Traits feats to pick up a ton of traits in a single category (regional traits in this case). Otherwise it's better to invest 2 regular traits in picking up those skills as class skills while picking up trait bonuses and sometimes extra perks beyond that on top of turning them into class skills. But if you are prestiging then investing into turning UMD into a class skill is useless because as I said above, the vast majority of prestige classes give UMD as a class skill anyway.

UMD is not a fail on a 1. Skills don't auto fail on 1's.
 to quote both the 3.5 srd and the pathfinder srd, with bold emphasis
You inverted word order but you're right. While it does look like a fumble rule, the penalty only comes in if a nat 1 would also be a fail. I guess in that case taking 10 on UMD is primarily good for UMDing other items. Of course usually the main reason to take Pathfinder Savant is getting oodles of discounted spells on your spell list. The suite of perks it gives to UMD is more of a side-benefit because Pathfinder Savant is just a crazy PrC which manages to make a dead spellcaster level an acceptable cost (and now we can use Prestigious Spellcaster to remove the dead level too) because the perks are that strong.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 06:09:42 PM by Power »

Offline ClayQ

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Re: [3.P] Help needed Mid to high level wand wielder wtf?
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2020, 07:05:25 AM »
I got dusk agent reflavored to magnar by the dm for my second trait actually.
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