Author Topic: [3E] Who does this actually apply to  (Read 788 times)

Offline Nanashi

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[3E] Who does this actually apply to
« on: February 03, 2020, 02:17:55 PM »
Quote from: Expedition to Demon Web Pits
Any Intelligence-based arcane spellcaster who makes a successful check to learn one of the spells from this book can immediately learn a second “reflected” spell at the same time. Thus, the time required to master these spells is halved because of the way they overlap for wizards and other arcane casters whose spellcasting is based on Intelligence.

It's nice to see them actually bother to support non-core casters, but uh... To my knowledge there's a grand total of four "Intelligence-based arcane spellcaster" base classes in the entire edition: Wizard, Wu Jen, Beguiler and Magewright. Wu Jen doesn't get any of the listed spells on their list, and Beguiler+Magewright can't learn any spells outside of their class features to do so. The three prestige classes with such I know off, with Assassin and Avenger being spontaneous casters while Chameleon doesn't need the line since they work like a wizard. Even that feat for rangers/paladins doesn't matter because they function as a wizard for that. This wouldn't be so bad if it was future proofing, but this was a pretty late release.

Is there anything that this line actually applies to? Would need an intelligence based arcane caster that isn't Wizard, learns spells outside of its class features, doesn't say they learn spells like a Wizard, and gets any two of Enlarge Person, Mirror Image, Simulacrum or Spell Turning on its list (or pulls spells from the Cleric or Bard list because this spell book has some unique spells and some Spell Compendium spells beyond those core spells).

Offline Keldar

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Re: [3E] Who does this actually apply to
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2020, 04:35:42 PM »
I can't think of any, not even any of the odd Dragon Magazine classes nor any Prestige Classes.  Duskblade is Int casting, but is a spontaneous caster, a veritable unicorn.   WotC seemed to have felt the Wizard ate up the entire gamespace for smart guy.

Wait, the 3.0 versions of the Bladesinger were a separate Int casting, but learned "as wizard."

Offline KellKheraptis

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Re: [3E] Who does this actually apply to
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2020, 06:08:33 PM »
Chameleon emulating an arcane caster is Int based as I recall.

Offline ketaro

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Re: [3E] Who does this actually apply to
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2020, 07:09:47 PM »
Lost Tradition feat makes every spellcaster Int based

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: [3E] Who does this actually apply to
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2020, 07:16:07 PM »
... Mystic Ranger (?)
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Offline Nanashi

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Re: [3E] Who does this actually apply to
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2020, 09:40:31 PM »
Forgot Duskblade was intelligence, though it still doesn't matter.

Chameleon still says
Quote
You prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook
So just Wizard would have included them.

Lost Tradition is third party. Does remind me that line would actually matter in Pathfinder, strangely enough. Magus (and Warlock/Cabalist vigilantes, who refer to Magus) can definitely use it to grab Enlarge Person and Mirror Image, and an Arcanist (Which I was surprised doesn't actually reference how wizard works when describing how it used its spellbook) can grab them all. There's likely some more obscure stuff too (Eldritch Scoundrel references as wizard).

Mystic Ranger still casts like a normal ranger. In-fact, it looks like it still has half its class level in caster level. (It's a shame they didn't just take the sane option and give it the adept casting rate. I really like the idea even if implementation is stupid)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2020, 06:11:23 PM by Nanashi »

Offline Skyrock

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Re: [3E] Who does this actually apply to
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2020, 02:39:55 AM »
A few base classes with int-based arcane casting that have been missed:
- Death Master (preps just as a wizard, but off a more limited list)
- Factotum (technically Arcane Dilettante provides SLAs, rather than spellcasting)
- Savant (preps just as a wizard, but off a more limited list)

Offline Nanashi

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Re: [3E] Who does this actually apply to
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2020, 04:12:54 AM »
Where are Death Master and Savant from? Do any of those classes require learning spells without using something like "like a Wizard"?

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: [3E] Who does this actually apply to
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2020, 06:00:02 AM »
Death Master is Dragon Compendium

Offline Skyrock

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Re: [3E] Who does this actually apply to
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2020, 06:35:50 AM »
Savant is also from DrC - essentially the Factotum's derpy little brother.

Offline Nanashi

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Re: [3E] Who does this actually apply to
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2020, 01:31:21 AM »
Death Master spellbooks "function in all ways as a wizard's spellbooks, including size, capacity, and cost to add spells." As far as I can tell, Savant can't learn extra spells beyond the ones they learn at level up through any means. Factotum doesn't learn spells (Literally, they're called "something like a spell"), they just pick them daily.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 01:47:05 AM by Nanashi »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: [3E] Who does this actually apply to
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2020, 04:49:19 PM »

... Mystic Ranger still casts like a normal ranger. In-fact, it looks like it still has half its class level in caster level. (It's a shame they didn't just take the sane option and give it the adept casting rate. I really like the idea even if implementation is stupid)

+ Sword Of The Arcane Order then ?
either Magical Training feat or dipping Wiz 1 requires a smidge of learning and/or weirdness
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: [3E] Who does this actually apply to
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2020, 05:24:24 PM »
Dragon 312 has 3 wizard necromancer alternate classes, pg 28.

what exactly is a 'reflected spell'? either i've been to long away from 3.x or can't see in the text in the Demonweb Pits pdf
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Offline Nanashi

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Re: [3E] Who does this actually apply to
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2020, 06:10:54 PM »
As far as I can tell, literally all reflected spells do is just the second sentence in that quote: Transcribe one spell from the book, get another in half the time (not even half the cost). How many GMs even bother keeping track of time to transcribe spells?

The Dragon 312 do seem to be the only thing so far this actually applies to, and only as a result of Dragon Magazine (from what I've heard) paying people by word count. Otherwise they'd have just said "as wizard".

Sword of the Arcane Order is "that feat for rangers/paladins" in the OP. Actually even less relevant than I remember it being since there's no way to write new spells (seemingly by RAI).
« Last Edit: February 07, 2020, 07:00:37 PM by Nanashi »

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: [3E] Who does this actually apply to
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2020, 11:11:38 PM »
What book is Lost Tradition from?
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Offline kitep

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Re: [3E] Who does this actually apply to
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2020, 01:41:15 AM »
what exactly is a 'reflected spell'? either i've been to long away from 3.x or can't see in the text in the Demonweb Pits pdf

Took me a while to find too.  It's on page 176 as part of "The Book of Flesh and Mirrors", the 3rd sentence under the "Contents" heading.  FWIW, it's half the time to learn 2 new spells, not half the time to transcribe them.

The reason it's hard to find in the pdf is because the underlying text that is actually searched uses "refl ected"  If you don't include the space in your search, you won't find it.  I only found it because I did a search for "intelligence"


Offline magic9mushroom

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Re: [3E] Who does this actually apply to
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2020, 04:40:58 AM »
Mystic Ranger still casts like a normal ranger. In-fact, it looks like it still has half its class level in caster level. (It's a shame they didn't just take the sane option and give it the adept casting rate. I really like the idea even if implementation is stupid)
Nah, it's even weirder; it inherits "no caster level until level 4". This makes the Mystic Ranger the only class I know that can cast spells with CL 0.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: [3E] Who does this actually apply to
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2020, 02:14:35 PM »
 :plotting ... and the dm can always rule that zero doesn't exist, too ?!



perhaps Erudite with some combo of StP or Magic Mantle (or dm-hinkyness).

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