Author Topic: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread  (Read 15612 times)

Offline Nanshork

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The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« on: December 09, 2011, 12:53:57 AM »
The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide needs some input.

The animals list in the guide wasn't compiled by me, and I (and any helpful boardmembers) need to go through it and remove all of the herbivores. 

It could also use some fleshing out in the Feats/Items/Prestige Classes department.

Any other input/suggestions/angry rants are also acceptable.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 04:08:29 AM by Nanshork »

Offline RedWarlock

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2011, 02:55:01 AM »
Cut these, they're all herbivores:

(medium)
o   Brixashulty (RoW); Str +2, Dex +6, Con +6; 3 NA; Endurance; Knockback
o   Caribou (Frb); Str +2, Dex +2, Con +2; 3 NA; Endurance
o   Dinosaur, Fastieth (ECS); Str +4, Dex +2, Con +2; 3 NA; Run
o   Pony (MM1); Str +2, Dex +2, Con +2; 2 NA; Endurance
o   Pony, War (MM1); Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4; 2 NA; Endurance
o   Dinosaur, Protoceratops (Snd); Str +6, Con +8; 8 NA; Alertness, Endurance; Powerful Charge
(large)
o   Camel (MM1); Str +8, Dex +6, Con +4; 1 NA; Alertness, Endurance
o   Camel, Dromedary (Snd); Str +8, Dex +6, Con +4; 1 NA; Alertness, Endurance
o   Camel, Two-Humped (Snd); Str +8, Dex +6, Con +6; 2 NA; Alertness, Endurance
o   Horse, Heavy (MM1); Str +6, Dex +2, Con +4; 3 NA; Endurance, Run
o   Horse, Light (MM1); Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4; 3 NA; Endurance, Run
o   Warhorse, Light (MM1); Str +6, Dex +2, Con +6; 4 NA; Endurance, Run
o   Camel (Snd); Str +8, Dex +6, Con +8; 4 NA; Alertness, Endurance
o   Warhorse, Heavy (MM1); Str +8, Dex +2, Con +6; 4 NA; Endurance, Run
o   Bison (MM1); Str +12, Con +6; 4 NA; Alertness, Endurance; Stampede
o   Megaloceros (Frb); Str +10, Dex +2, Con +6; 4 NA; Alertness, Endurance, Run; Improved grab, stampede, toss
o   Dire Horse (MM2); Str +12, Dex +2, Con +12; 6 NA; Endurance, Run, Toughness
o   Hippopotamus (Snd); Str +14, Con +10; 6 NA; Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Power Attack
o   Rhinoceros (MM1); Str +16, Con +10; 7 NA; Alertness, Endurance, Imp NA (Gore); Powerful charge
o   Dinosaur, Diprotodon (Snd); Str +16, Con +8; 5 NA; Alertness, Imp Nat Atk (claw), Iron Will, Run
o   Glyptodon (Frb); Str +10, Con +6; 10 NA; Alertness, Imp Nat Atk (tail), Power Attack, Toughness; Augmented critical, trample
(huge)
o   Dinosaur, Ankylosaurus (MM2); Str +18, Con +16; 16 NA; Alertness, Great Fortitude, Toughness x2; Trample
o   Elephant (MM1); Str +20, Con +10; 7 NA; Alertness, Endurance, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Listen); Trample
o   Dire Elk (MM2); Str +14, Con +10; 7 NA; Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Power Attack, Toughness; Trample
o   Megatherium (FF); Str +14, Dex +2, Con +14; 15 NA; Alertness, Great Fortitude, Imp Crit (claw), Power Attack, Wpn Focus (claw); Imp grab, pin down, trample
o   Mammoth, Wooly (Frb); Str +24, Con +14; 10 NA; Alertness, Endurance, Imp Bull Rush, Multiattack, Power Attack, Imp grab, toss, trample
o   Mastadon (MM3); Str +22, Con +12; 8 NA; Alertness, Endurance, INA (gore/slam), Iron Will, Toughness; Trample
o   Mastadon, Grizzly (MM2); Str +24, Con +12; 8 NA; Alertness, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Toughness x2; Trample


Also, doublecheck your sizes and stats for the Megaraptor and Deinonychus, they're Large and Medium, respectively. (It's in the errata, and they're listed that way on the d20srd.org.)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 02:59:02 AM by RedWarlock »
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2011, 04:17:27 AM »
Herbivores have been cut and the two mentioned dinosaurs have been slotted into their correct size categories. 

Thank you RedWarlock, that was much appreciated.   :D

Offline Thurbane

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2011, 08:33:31 PM »
Hey, nice guide.  :clap

Two things I thought worth pointing out in the race section:

Catfolk have +4 Dex and +2 Cha, not +4 Dex and +4 Cha as listed.

Also, 1/2 Ogres (the RoD version) seem to be missing from the ECL 3 race list (Large Giant, +2 LA).

Cheers - T
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 08:35:42 PM by Thurbane »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2011, 08:56:15 PM »
Adjustments have been made, thanks for catching those.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2011, 09:11:34 PM »
Quote
Make the animal the same size as you. This will let you wear the same armor and use the same weapons in your hybrid form.
This is based on faulty rules interpretation. Lycanthropes use the Alternate Form rules for their shape-changing, which explicity say:
Quote
If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size.
It is mentioned several times in the guide that you should choose an animal form the same size as your base form, but I couldn't disagree more, really. Natural reach is a huge advantage, and only gets better if you add a reach weapon. So this stuff should really be removed from the guide. Maybe it was based on the 3.0 rules or something? Or early 3.5, before errata? I don't know. Whatever the reason, it is bad advice based on an erroneous rules assumption.

And as far as animal hit dice, while yes it is generally in your best interest to minimize them, if the DM will allow you to advance them according to the animal's stat block, there can be a huge advantage to doing so. For example, going from 3 to 4 hit dice on a dire badger gets you [urlhttp://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases=]a size increase[/url] and doesn't cost you a point of BAB. This translates into +8 strength, +4 con, and +2 natural armor at the cost of -2 dex and -1 attack/AC. So it is well worth it. I am not sure if it is RAW-legal, though.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 09:13:44 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2011, 09:40:32 PM »
The Alternate Form information is pre-errata.  Alternate Form got erratad when Shapechange did fifty-thousand times.  I'll change that.

Also, I'm of the opinion that advancing animal hit dice isn't RAW-legal. 

Offline snakeman830

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2011, 04:53:54 PM »
The Alternate Form information is pre-errata.  Alternate Form got erratad when Shapechange did fifty-thousand times.  I'll change that.
Given that the lycanthrope Alternate Form mentions that specifically, I believe it is an exception to the normal rule.  Thus, the original information is still correct.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2011, 05:11:49 PM »
I've finally gotten off my lazy ass and looked this up for myself.  The official MM errata completely replaces the sentence in the MM that talks about how gear isn't affected, and it also added that gear is affected in the Alternate Form ability in general.  D20srd.org has the right of it, the original information was incorrect due to errata.

Offline EjoThims

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2011, 07:53:15 PM »
Additionally: "The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian's rage class feature)."  The natural armor isn't a problem since the Lycanthropy template specifically overrides that, but the extraordinary special attacks section is something to remember.

Just wanted to call out that this means that other templates on the lycanthrope (feral was a spectacular one) are now pretty much useless.  :banghead

Offline snakeman830

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2011, 12:44:33 PM »
Might be worth noting that a lycanthrope that is wild-shaped can use their alternate form ability, thus granting far higher stats than normal for your hybrid form (usually).
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2012, 03:08:43 PM »
Perhaps we could create a list of the best animals for lycanthropy and why they are the best (or would that belong in a separate thread?). So far I've got the nifern (poison that paralyzes your opponent, blindsight, great stats, and only 2hd).

In the feats section you may want to add the poison feats from savage species and serpent kingdoms. Deadly spittle in particular is an awesome feat for a nifern because it allows you to spray your spit in a 15-foot cone-shaped burst.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2012, 04:34:14 PM »
The issue is that the hybrid form doesn't get poison because that's a special attack.

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2012, 04:39:40 PM »
The issue is that the hybrid form doesn't get poison because that's a special attack.

That's what black blood hunter is for ;).
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2012, 04:45:39 PM »
The issue is that the hybrid form doesn't get poison because that's a special attack.

That's what black blood hunter is for ;).

True, but I don't want to put in feats that first require five levels of a campaign specific prestige class to use effectively.

If you want to make an analysis of what animals are best feel free, I'll even make a link to it in my guide.  However, the guide is for more general feat/item/whatever advice that all lycanthropes qualify for rather than specific builds.

Offline gorfnab

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2012, 01:14:38 AM »
An explanation of the Control Shape skill would be nice.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2012, 11:03:26 AM »
An explanation of the Control Shape skill would be nice.

What would you like me to say about it?

Offline Risada

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2012, 11:06:23 AM »
An explanation of the Control Shape skill would be nice.

You mean the rules for it? They're here, right by the Lycanthrope entry in the SRD. Just scroll down a little and you will find it.

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2012, 11:40:27 AM »
Is there any reason you couldn't take the otherworldly feat (or any other method that changes your type to outsider) thus making your animal hd much better?
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide Discussion Thread
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2012, 12:16:59 PM »
Is there any reason you couldn't take the otherworldly feat (or any other method that changes your type to outsider) thus making your animal hd much better?

Because changing your type won't affect your animal HD.  To quote the template:
Quote
Hit Dice and Hit Points: Same as the base creature plus those of the base animal. To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form.

Changing your type doesn't change the type of the base animal.