Author Topic: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread  (Read 31935 times)

Offline Mooncrow

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The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« on: December 09, 2011, 09:27:57 AM »
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1238

Feel free to make suggestions, criticisms, comments, w/e. 

Offline pelzak

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2011, 09:51:51 AM »
Hello,

Just a thought about Divine Metamagic. If Extra turning feat is adding 4 turning attempts to both Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead them can it also add to Greater Turn Undead (granted by Sun Domain)?
If yes, maybe include it in guide? This can greatly increase number of turn attempts and therefore increase capacity of Divine Metamagic.

Sorry if this post shouldn't be here.

Best regards,
Pelzak

EDIT: Awww. It looks like Sun Domain is not granting extra turning attempts, just convert normal ones. In that case please ignore this post.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 04:27:17 PM by pelzak »

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2012, 02:12:47 PM »

EDIT: Awww. It looks like Sun Domain is not granting extra turning attempts, just convert normal ones. In that case please ignore this post.

Yeah, that's the general consensus on how the Sun domain works =/

Offline Endarire

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2012, 08:50:02 PM »
The strength of a Cleric is in doing a bunch of things well.  For example, archery + necromantic minions + healing/status removal/buffing = team win!

Doing too little as a Cleric is likely to make you feel bored and ineffective.  (Experience speakin' here.)

Offline AfterCrescent

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2012, 10:27:39 PM »
A) Thanks Mooncrow. XD (Also, just noticed Planning domain should be bold (3rd post in the handbook, first spoiler block). I'm sure that's a carryover typo from me. >.<

B) pelzak, just take the Fire Domain, which gives you Turn Water Elemental attempts. ;)  That's the most common way I've seen to turn Extra Turning into even more turn attempts. It's definitely a coin flip area when it comes to DM rulings.

C) Endarire - I feel your pain. Everytime I have a player sit down and tell me they don't want to play the party cleric because they don't want to be the healbot, I just know they've had a terrible experience. Single-minded clerics can be fun, but you have to be trying to make that mindset work. lol
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

Offline pelzak

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2012, 03:19:02 PM »
B) pelzak, just take the Fire Domain, which gives you Turn Water Elemental attempts. ;)  That's the most common way I've seen to turn Extra Turning into even more turn attempts. It's definitely a coin flip area when it comes to DM rulings.

It's not because:
Quote from: Divine Metamagic
When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know. You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you're using. For example, Jozan the cleric could sacrifi ce three turn attempts to empower a holy smite he's casting. Because you're using positive or negative energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell doesn't change.

Fire domain is not giving you turn or rebuke undead attempts to power up metamagic.   :(

Best regards,
Pelzak
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 03:20:50 PM by pelzak »

Offline linklord231

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2012, 03:44:08 PM »
What about a Radiant Servant of Pelor?  They can "perform a Greater Turning a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier."  Would Extra Turning apply to that?
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline AfterCrescent

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2012, 10:52:28 PM »
linklord: It should. You can also dip dread necromancer for rebuke undead with your turn and extra turning to get both of those. ;)

pelzak: The next sentence just states turn or rebuke, without mentioning undead. You can argue it either way (and I've seen it argued both ways). It comes down to a DM call.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

Offline Mithril Leaf

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2012, 09:40:03 AM »
[color=navyKnowledge [/color]- As a wise man once said "Knowledge Devotion is Weapon Focus for the thinking man."  Nothing truer can be said.
This could use a fixing.

Perhaps when you mention nightsticks in the equipment section, you should reference their possible stacking.

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2012, 01:04:01 PM »
Typos fixed - thanks for pointing them out =)

I'm still a huge fan of the Rebuke Dragons ACF from Dragon Magic - explicitly allows you to use those turning attempts to power divine feats.  Then re-pick up Turn Undead from Sacred Exorcist or whatever.  Bam, 2 turning pools, without any grey area in the rules. 

Perhaps when you mention nightsticks in the equipment section, you should reference their possible stacking.

Nightstick stacking is down at the bottom in the "Debatable Tactics and Tricks" section. 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 01:10:06 PM by Mooncrow »

Offline Sevash

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2012, 02:42:41 PM »
While you're looking at this, it's worth noting that Destroy Undead from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft explicitly does allow it to be used to power divine feats:

Quote from: Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, pg. 207
Destroy undead still counts as turn undead for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for feats, prestige classes, and so forth...if a feat requires the expenditure of one or more uses of turn undead, it instead consumes uses of this ability.

Also, while the ability does allow a will save, a second look shows that it increases every level, rather than the every-other-level increase to save DCs that most base class abilities have.  That makes it far more likely to hit most undead.  If the save DC still isn't high enough for you, with the Prestige Paladin/Serenity combo you could (with a reasonable DM) apply your Wisdom modifier to the save DC rather than Charisma!

Destroy Undead is one of my favorite alternate class abilities, and I feel that it merits a navy blue--it is just as useful as base turning and much, much easier to implement in actual play.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 02:44:19 PM by Sevash »

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2012, 03:02:15 PM »
Destroy Undead is pretty cool - but the reason I list Rebuke Dragons as my go-to option when faced with picky DMs is that Rebuke Dragons wording is
Quote
An attempt to rebuke dragons counts as an attempt to turn or rebuke undead for the purpose of qualifying for or activating divine feats
(emphasis added) 

whereas Destroy Undead uses the wording of:
Quote
...counts as meeting the prerequisites for feats, prestige classes, and so forth.
 

Since activating divine feats is not explicitly mentioned, there's still wiggle room for the DM to say "no". 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 03:04:42 PM by Mooncrow »

Offline Garryl

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2012, 03:20:18 PM »
While you're looking at this, it's worth noting that Destroy Undead from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft explicitly does allow it to be used to power divine feats:

Quote from: Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, pg. 207
Destroy undead still counts as turn undead for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for feats, prestige classes, and so forth...if a feat requires the expenditure of one or more uses of turn undead, it instead consumes uses of this ability.


The second part of the quoted text indicates that Destroy Undead also works with divine feats (and anything else that uses turning attempts, although not rebuke attempts like Rebuke Dragons allows). Rebuke Dragons only plays nicely with divine feats (and not other options that take turning uses). However, the wording of Destroy Undead may make it not play that nicely withing turning-using feats and secondary turning pools.

Quote from: Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, pg. 207
if a feat requires the expenditure of one or more uses of turn undead, it instead consumes uses of this ability.

If I'm reading this right, it doesn't let Destroy attempts count as turning for the feats, it actually changes what the feats use, and not optionally or on a per-use basis. If you have Destroy Undead, you can never use anything but Destroy Undead uses to power divine feats.

Offline Sevash

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2012, 03:36:32 PM »

Quote from: Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, pg. 207
if a feat requires the expenditure of one or more uses of turn undead, it instead consumes uses of this ability.

If I'm reading this right, it doesn't let Destroy attempts count as turning for the feats, it actually changes what the feats use, and not optionally or on a per-use basis. If you have Destroy Undead, you can never use anything but Destroy Undead uses to power divine feats.

That is a sticky point:  it's ugly, ambiguous wording.  I have interpreted it in the past to work along the same lines as Rebuke Dragons and other turning abilities in that regard, and that's probably RAI.  Still, an argument could be made for your interpretation as well.

I guess what it comes down to is this:  If turn undead will be your only source of turning attempts over your career or it will be changed into a different kind of turning later (as with Bone Knight), Destroy Undead is a safe bet.  If you intend to pick up multiple sources of turning, it's still a very good option but should be checked with your DM as to their interpretation of that statement.

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2012, 03:41:18 PM »
Good point Garryl.  I mostly only looked at the feature from a "getting multiple pools of turning to fuel DMM/other divine feats" perspective. 

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2012, 12:46:03 AM »
http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/ASMoNM/FavoredWeapons.html

That's a list of most deities and their favored weapons, but it's not exhaustive.  Deities and Demigods has a lot that aren't listed there.

Offline gorfnab

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2012, 11:09:03 PM »
Dynamic Priest and Academic Priest (decent for Cloistered Clerics) feats from Dragonlance: Legend of the Twins may be worth mentioning.

Offline magic9mushroom

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2019, 02:48:51 AM »
I've got to say that I think Whisper Gnome and VDK are not nearly as good for a Cleric as they are for a Wizard (or, in VDK's case, Sorcerer). Unlike those classes, a Cleric isn't as well-served by dumping Str entirely or by being Small, and as such I'm not so sure they're worth a whole category over Human (e.g. VDK gets +5 to ability scores all up, but they're out two feats for the privilege and it really is only +5; Whisper Gnome's stats are above even but not by a lot). Both are certainly strong choices for Cleric (with the right build), but I don't think it's the level of hand-in-glove synergy of a Whisper Gnome/VDK Wizard or Anthropomorphic Bat Druid (let alone a VDK Sorcerer).

Also, Nezumi probably belongs in the list of "Good" races (same stat adjustments as Dwarf, and 40ft movespeed, though they don't get the save bonus vs. spells).
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 03:06:52 AM by magic9mushroom »

Offline magic9mushroom

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2019, 07:12:33 AM »
Upon careful examination, I do not believe that multiple defending weapons should stack with each other. A defending weapon applies an enhancement bonus to AC, not an unnamed bonus. This should stack with magic armour, because that's an enhancement bonus to an armor bonus to AC, but not with itself. Moreover, even if it did grant an unnamed bonus, multiple instances would still have the source "defending weapon" and therefore would not stack with each other.

Also, while an animated shield protects you on command as though you were wielding it, I don't see any way you could be construed as wielding its spikes while it's floating around (there's nothing saying you can bash with it). As such, I would recommend either animation or spikes, rather than both.