Author Topic: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread  (Read 16692 times)

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2015, 12:42:26 AM »
Honestly, though, what sane DM would let you get to a 3% craft cost, anyways, in a real game?
The kind that allows custom item sidebars. Otherwise, you can go from a "normal" one feat cost of the 30%s to the 10%s after sinking lots and lots of resources into it.

Offline Lokiyn

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2015, 05:36:18 PM »
To gain the reduce price, the feat must be involved in the creation process; ergo you are crafting an item "with the feat" in much the same manner as you would say, craft a sword "with the anvil"; it may not be the hammer, the steel or the fire, but it is directly involved in the creation process.




Here's one. Region of Dream flowing time trait prevents the gain or loss of exp while affected by it, Manifest zone, psionic allows you to link a manifest field.
Profit?

Related to that, a Stronghold space with the spell "Dream Travel" feature instead of teleport, would net you an extra 14.75 hours a day in work time. (or more with uses per day) [Note Dream Travel has a little note at the end that nullifies the consumable restriction of the time trait.)
(which is close to a 62% reduction in objective time)

Related planar stupidity

Take a squirrel, give it a little pouch with something valuable and or rare. Make sure it's unconscious. 
Get naked (this is important)

Send the Squirrel into the mirror using Mirror Walking
Enter the Mirror realm (still naked)
Have your assistant enter with the items you need (a cage and your gear with preferably with some sort of fast equip or a summons spell)
He gives them to you, then returns.

At this point, in your mirror realm there are 2 Squirrels, 2 Pouches, 1 naked you, and 1 equipped you (as the mirror friends stuff vanished when he left.)

Steal the original squirrels pouch
Murder your naked self.
Place the put the doppel squirrel in with the original and fix whatever condition renders the doppel unconscious.
Let nature take its course.
Leave with both pouches 1 dead squirrel and 1 mirror squirrel.
Petrify or stasis the squirrel when you get back.

Yes this cost you roughly 3 ea. lvl 5 spell slots, but it lets you copy any object, including artifacts at level 9 so it's probably worth it.

You should now have 2x whatever you needed copied, as long as no one kills the Squirrel or Breaks the Statue.

You could also glue a Box to a turtle, why not.
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Offline nijineko

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2015, 11:39:59 PM »
Here's one. Region of Dream flowing time trait prevents the gain or loss of exp while affected by it, Manifest zone, psionic allows you to link a manifest field.
Profit?


wouldn't that just prevent you from creating the item, as you can't lose xp, so the item can't gain it via the crafting process. as in auto-crafting-fail?
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Offline Lokiyn

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #63 on: August 01, 2015, 07:08:20 PM »
The spell doesn't have that limitation, but if i remember right, the better thing to do is use Anchor Plane to attach the plane of dreams Morphic Trait. Which grants you a near limitless supply of materials (since the morphic trait isn't limited like the time trait), almost like a true creation at will.

Now i have to wonder, if you are inside the zone with the time trait that protects xp loss, and you cast a spell that consumes xp that affects someone outside the zone, how does that play out.

And a slightly less rambling point addressing Magical Artisan and the "x" Artisan Feats.

There actually is a pretty clear cut example of how that class of feats works in the Sharn, City of Towers book

The Improved Flight Item [Item creation] Feat does not in and of itself create items (per se) but as seen in the example items (Soarsled, Flying Buttress) that use the feat to gain its benefits, it is added to the prerequisites of the item. Which according to the DMG makes it a required part of the item creation process.

::shrugs::

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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #64 on: October 17, 2015, 11:39:40 PM »
For the record, I'm not okay with custom item sidebarsanything. Also Endaire is right that the whales are too high HD by the time they become colossal. It took a while, but there is an animal that works! Also the MoE page number is 13, and it requires another caster who can (greater) planar bind.

I'd like to also disagree about the stacking rules. I take the word "modifier" a bit literally in that the cost reductions are all modifiers. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm mentions modifiers not stacking. Otherwise, if you had the feats, you could start throwing MA on everything and squeeze even more savings.

Artificer's dump is page 36
Khyber Shard per item, which costs between 4d4*75gp (average 750gp)
MoE19

So what happens if the shard is destroyed once the item is made? Is the shard always inside the item? Can it be targeted separately if it isn't?

EDIT: Actually, where does it say we can use elemental binding on items that don't require the elemental binding feat? Is there an example of a large elemental getting put into a regular +1 darkwood buckler or something?

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #65 on: October 18, 2015, 12:54:35 AM »
-stuff-
Suspiciously timed update eh Plz?  :P

On topic: the news about non-crafting ICFs being usable with the artisan feat is great! As for the bind elemental thing...The feat doesn't specify what kind of magic items it has to be used for. One could make the argument that it's an optional component t when crafting some things (just like the flight improvement) and a required component for items like airships that specifically require them.

As for custom items...I fully support very simple ones that are slightly modified versions of existing items (slot changes, upgrading items that have non-bonus abilities like the casting glove's ability to cast a wand from it. I would definitely pay 150% to put an extra wand in there.)
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Offline Lokiyn

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2015, 04:00:25 PM »
I'd like to also disagree about the stacking rules. I take the word "modifier" a bit literally in that the cost reductions are all modifiers. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm mentions modifiers not stacking. Otherwise, if you had the feats, you could start throwing MA on everything and squeeze even more savings.

I think the standard counterpoint to that is that pulling from the same source you linked

Quote from: The Basics
Modifiers
A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty.
Quote from: The Basics
Multiplying
Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3).

When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal. Similarly, a blinded creature attempting to negotiate difficult terrain would count each square as 4 squares (doubling the cost twice, for a total multiplier of ×4), rather than as 3 squares (adding 100% twice).

there is an upper limit that can be reached (its really really low) where more savings are outweighed by the benefits of more feats. (although with ritual of transference, you can actually buy feat slots at the low cost of 1k apiece)

And i believe in answer to the question about the shard, the Explorers handbook explicitly mentions the Dragonshard by name as a piece of the airship
Quote from: Explorers Handbook pg27[/quote
Breaking the Dragonshard: Shattering the Khyber dragonshard that binds it can free an elemental, but it is a diffi cult task. On the elemental vessels used by House Lyrandar, the shard is sealed in a protective box, often guarded with glyphs of warding or other magic traps, and in turn protected within a special housing chamber. The shard itself is around 6 inches in diameter and 12 inches long, has 90 hit points, and is enhanced with a hardening spell cast by the gnomes who built the ship that gives it hardness 16. Wary ship owners often invest in additional protections as well
which certainly implies that dragonshards are "load bearing structures" in magic items, and that you could "target the weak point"

« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 04:02:55 PM by Lokiyn »
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #67 on: November 01, 2015, 05:49:08 PM »
-stuff-
Suspiciously timed update eh Plz?  :P
Definitely. When I go though something for a build of mine and consult the handbook, I bring up whatever I've looked at closely if I think it will help clarify the handbook.
Quote
One could make the argument that it's an optional component t when crafting some things (just like the flight improvement) and a required component for items like airships that specifically require them.
I was hoping for more of a rules quote beyond the 'adding a shard reduces cost of an item by 10% per size of elemental bound.' Preferably, something that said, "you can use elemental binding on magic items that don't require the bind elemental feat."

I think the standard counterpoint to that is that pulling from the same source you linked
That makes sense, although it does not persuade me. Modifiers can still be other things because the quote doesn't say "a modifier is only"

Offline Lokiyn

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #68 on: November 01, 2015, 06:43:48 PM »
That makes sense, although it does not persuade me. Modifiers can still be other things because the quote doesn't say "a modifier is only"

Lets Explore that.

The essential thrust of this argument is that although the rules have defined what something is, you contend that because they have not defined what something is not you are free to add any possible arrangement of features to the above listing of what the item is. squares/Rectangles or Cats/Socrates take your pick of examples.

Now,
Quote from:  Players Handbook, 310
modifier: Any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty. Modifiers from the same source do not stack, and modifiers with specific descriptors generally do not stack with others of the same type. If more than one modifier of a type is present, only the best bonus or worst penalty in that grouping applies. Bonuses or penalties that do not have descriptors stack with those that do.

Ok, so now we need to define bonus or penalty. Bonus is described below, while penalty is defined as a negative bonus above.

Quote from:  Players Handbook, 305
bonus: A positive modifier to a die roll. In most cases, multiple bonuses from the same source or of the same type in effect on the same character or object do not stack; only the highest bonus of that type applies. Bonuses that don’t have a specific type always stack with all bonuses.

The section linked to in the d20 site, is from the start of the book, however the above quote is from the glossary section of the phb.

All of which is a moot point, as cost reductions are not modifiers (note; by definition, modifiers must be applied to dice rolls) Cost reductions are multipliers which have a section in the phb devoted to explaining how to handle them; below i've quoted and reproduced the relevant section with the page reference.

Quote from:  Players Handbook, 304
When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal. Similarly, a blinded creature attempting to negotiate difficult terrain would count each square as 4 squares (doubling the cost twice, for a total multiplier of ×4), rather than as 3 squares (adding 100% twice).

This is why when you add up the cost reductions you don't simply sum up the values, but instead apply them as you would in a normal mathematical problem, so ("x")*.75*.75 is [.5625x] rather than .5x

And to forestall the inevitable, note the difference in phrases between the example real world multiplier and the definition of multiplier

Quote from: Multiplier
"such as"
Quote from: English Grammar Today
We can use such as to introduce an example or examples of something we mention. We normally use a comma before such as when we present a list of examples. Where there is just one example, we don’t need a comma:

    The shop specialises in tropical fruits, such as pineapples, mangoes and papayas. (… for example, pineapples, mangoes and papayas.)

    Countries such as Sweden have a long record of welcoming refugees from all over the world.

Such as is similar to like for introducing examples, but it is more formal, and is used more in writing than like:

    She has worked in several countries where English is spoken as a first language, such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada and so on. (or, less formal, … like Australia, New Zealand, Canada and so on.)
Quote from: Modifiers
"is"
Quote from: Cambridge Dictionary
"he/she/it form of be"
Be - "used to say something about a ​person, thing, or ​state, to show a ​permanent or ​temporary ​quality, ​state, ​job, etc.:  "
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2015, 10:35:22 AM »
Uh. Loki, I appreciate the detail but I understand why we use multipliers in a mathematical way (which is what half your quotes concern). Trust me. I'm very familiar with this handbook. But trying to tie the handling of its maths doesn't completely take care of my position that stacking MA is cheesy.

I was merely saying that I would find it hard to convince a neutral DM not to use the standard English meaning of modifier (which allows for the 'no stacking MA' position due to normal stacking limitations) and instead use the modifier glossary entry formalism (which overrides the english meaning and substitutes it with the dice-rolling bonus xor penalty definition to allow the MA stacking position).

In fact GitP has a humorous thread on taking DnD terms too far by answering philosophical questions with rules quotes.

Offline Endarire

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #70 on: November 29, 2015, 03:06:35 AM »
May we get working links in his handbook?  I don't know what 'This Obelisk' means.

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #71 on: November 29, 2015, 11:26:33 PM »
May we get working links in his handbook?  I don't know what 'This Obelisk' means.

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Offline nijineko

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #72 on: November 30, 2015, 03:10:24 PM »
May we get working links in his handbook?  I don't know what 'This Obelisk' means.

The wayback machine is your friend.

oh, the obelisk is a greyhawk specific means that one famous npc used to bump himself over the epic/divine level power threshold.
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Offline nijineko

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2016, 03:02:01 PM »
just noticed that the handbook doesn't have the formula for the extra discount for crafting an item as a piece of architecture from the stronghold builder's guidebook.
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Offline Chemus

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #74 on: July 28, 2017, 10:22:29 AM »
May we get working links in his handbook?  I don't know what 'This Obelisk' means.

The wayback machine is your friend.

Even Better, just adding 'archive' in place of the 'www' in many wizards.com addresses fixes most of the links. Like so:
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070812a&page=4
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