Author Topic: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities  (Read 75204 times)

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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It's worth mentioning the Infinity is an Aleph Zero.
I don't have near enough High Math mojo,
to describe what Aleph One is or why it's different
from Aleph Zero. Anyone trying to get that number
via the D&D rule set, is up against not just doing it,
but also explaining what it is.
Remains quite a cookie, for both Pun-pun lovers and haters.
Cantor's Diagonal Argument is the best explanation I've seen for the difference between countable(aleph zero) and uncountable(aleph one) infinities. Here's my take on it.

First, imagine an infinitely long sequence, where each element is either 1 or 0. One such sequence could be 111111..., another 000000..., another 10101010..., and so on. Now, imagine that we take all of these sequences, and arrange them into a list. It might look something like this:

1: 111111111....
2: 000000000....
3: 101010101....
4: 010101010....
5: 100100100....
6: 011011011....
...

Thus, we associate each natural number with one such possible sequence. Now, one might think that, since there are infinitely many natural numbers, once we had associated every natural number with a sequence, there would be no more sequences. One would be wrong. Consider the sequence S, defined thus: the nth element in S is 0 if the nth element of the nth sequence is 1, and 1 otherwise. This sequence is clearly not anywhere in the list - it is by its very nature different from every sequence in the list. We can append this specific sequence to the list, but from the same definition, another sequence will arise which does not fit in the list. As long as every sequence on the list can be associated with a natural number, there will be sequences not on the list. Therefore, the set which contains all the possible sequences must have a larger cardinality than the set of all natural numbers, or, in layman's terms, there must be more possible sequences than natural numbers.
thanks again

Now I hafta go study this ...  :P
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Offline AyeGill

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Wikipedia explains it very nicely

Offline Bastian

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I'd add Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery(CoRuin 37) to Won't stay dead if killed part. It allows for Pun-Pun to effectively have NI phylacteries.
Nice catch on that one. That is going in both the Won't stay dead if killed subsection and the Truly Infinite section do to the wording "Each time it is cast, the number of objects that comprise the lich's phylactery can be increased by an amount equal to the caster's modifier for its spellcasting ability." Which means the caster doesn't have to choose a number since the spell can automatically be set to have an effect equal to one of Pun-Pun's already infinite mental score modifiers.
Quote
Depending on how you read this, stealing Primus' Telepathy might allow for Pun-Pun to have Telepathy with truly infinite range(or else Telepathy with infinite range while on Mechanus), but this is subject to interpretation, 3.0 material and definitely shaky RAW.
Edit: So I read it and the only place it states the range of Primus's telepathy is in Table 1 so we have to take the table at its word. That means its telepathic range is the entirety of Mechanus and not an inch outside of it. Thus it will go in the Truly Infinite section with that qualification.

If you care to be more explicit about it, NI HD/levels means NI feats and skill levels.
I added the bit about skill levels/ranks but Pun-Pun already has nigh-infinite feats/abilities.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 07:05:32 PM by Bastian »

Offline Scottzar

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As per the extra spell slots table, and Pun-Pun's truly infinite ability modifiers, they have truly infinite spell slots.
Greater Celerity + NI Swift Actions therefore grants you NI full actions as opposed to standard, so long as you don't screw up and need to use an immediate action.

Could be used for.... something, I'm sure.
Assume that any rules statements I make are under full RAW.
Common sense, game balance, or an enjoyable experience need not apply.

Offline Bastian

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As per the extra spell slots table, and Pun-Pun's truly infinite ability modifiers, they have truly infinite spell slots.
Greater Celerity + NI Swift Actions therefore grants you NI full actions as opposed to standard, so long as you don't screw up and need to use an immediate action.

Could be used for.... something, I'm sure.
Added. Nice find.

Offline JohnnyMayHymn

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It's worth mentioning the Infinity is an Aleph Zero.
I don't have near enough High Math mojo,
to describe what Aleph One is or why it's different
from Aleph Zero. Anyone trying to get that number
via the D&D rule set, is up against not just doing it,
but also explaining what it is.
Remains quite a cookie, for both Pun-pun lovers and haters.
Cantor's Diagonal Argument is the best explanation I've seen for the difference between countable(aleph zero) and uncountable(aleph one) infinities. Here's my take on it.

First, imagine an infinitely long sequence, where each element is either 1 or 0. One such sequence could be 111111..., another 000000..., another 10101010..., and so on. Now, imagine that we take all of these sequences, and arrange them into a list. It might look something like this:

1: 111111111....
2: 000000000....
3: 101010101....
4: 010101010....
5: 100100100....
6: 011011011....
...

Thus, we associate each natural number with one such possible sequence. Now, one might think that, since there are infinitely many natural numbers, once we had associated every natural number with a sequence, there would be no more sequences. One would be wrong. Consider the sequence S, defined thus: the nth element in S is 0 if the nth element of the nth sequence is 1, and 1 otherwise. This sequence is clearly not anywhere in the list - it is by its very nature different from every sequence in the list. We can append this specific sequence to the list, but from the same definition, another sequence will arise which does not fit in the list. As long as every sequence on the list can be associated with a natural number, there will be sequences not on the list. Therefore, the set which contains all the possible sequences must have a larger cardinality than the set of all natural numbers, or, in layman's terms, there must be more possible sequences than natural numbers.
 
 If your base number system is large enough, that is one symbol for each known positive integer, then there is room on the list.  You are simply generating sequences faster than natural numbers.  Furthermore, I'm not convinced that infinity exists, there is always a limitation. 
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Offline AyeGill

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It's worth mentioning the Infinity is an Aleph Zero.
I don't have near enough High Math mojo,
to describe what Aleph One is or why it's different
from Aleph Zero. Anyone trying to get that number
via the D&D rule set, is up against not just doing it,
but also explaining what it is.
Remains quite a cookie, for both Pun-pun lovers and haters.
Cantor's Diagonal Argument is the best explanation I've seen for the difference between countable(aleph zero) and uncountable(aleph one) infinities. Here's my take on it.

First, imagine an infinitely long sequence, where each element is either 1 or 0. One such sequence could be 111111..., another 000000..., another 10101010..., and so on. Now, imagine that we take all of these sequences, and arrange them into a list. It might look something like this:

1: 111111111....
2: 000000000....
3: 101010101....
4: 010101010....
5: 100100100....
6: 011011011....
...

Thus, we associate each natural number with one such possible sequence. Now, one might think that, since there are infinitely many natural numbers, once we had associated every natural number with a sequence, there would be no more sequences. One would be wrong. Consider the sequence S, defined thus: the nth element in S is 0 if the nth element of the nth sequence is 1, and 1 otherwise. This sequence is clearly not anywhere in the list - it is by its very nature different from every sequence in the list. We can append this specific sequence to the list, but from the same definition, another sequence will arise which does not fit in the list. As long as every sequence on the list can be associated with a natural number, there will be sequences not on the list. Therefore, the set which contains all the possible sequences must have a larger cardinality than the set of all natural numbers, or, in layman's terms, there must be more possible sequences than natural numbers.
 
 If your base number system is large enough, that is one symbol for each known positive integer, then there is room on the list.  You are simply generating sequences faster than natural numbers.  Furthermore, I'm not convinced that infinity exists, there is always a limitation.

Infinity definitely doesn't exist in reality - one of the main problems in physics today is in fact reconciling quantum mechanics with relativity, because when you combine them infinite values spring up all over the place, and that doesn't make any sense. However, a lot of higher-order mathematics have no counterpart in reality, see also pure mathematics. You can argue back and forth whether these mathematics are interesting or useful at all, and i don't really think the difference between Aleph 0 and 1 has any bearing on pun-pun - aleph 1 has yet to be reached in DnD.

Offline Scottzar

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Let's add another NI sized instant death bubble onto Pun-Pun. Aleax immunities mean he can survive on the seventh mounting heaven of celestia. World-Walker means he is native to that plane while on it. Planar Shepard bubbles + NI duration acorn of far travel gives him a NI sized instant death/absorption bubble.

Only natives of the 7th layer who are planar shepards, Aleax's, or Zodars could survive that.
I think.

Oh, and there are more immunities. Look at, say, demilich. Specifically, magic immunity.

Quote
Magic Immunity (Ex)

Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 04:16:59 PM by Scottzar »
Assume that any rules statements I make are under full RAW.
Common sense, game balance, or an enjoyable experience need not apply.

Offline Bastian

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Let's add another NI sized instant death bubble onto Pun-Pun. Aleax immunities mean he can survive on the seventh mounting heaven of celestia. World-Walker means he is native to that plane while on it. Planar Shepard bubbles + NI duration acorn of far travel gives him a NI sized instant death/absorption bubble.

Only natives of the 7th layer who are planar shepards, Aleax's, or Zodars could survive that.
I think.
I couldn't find any mention of a killing trait. Where did you find it?

Oh, and there are more immunities. Look at, say, demilich. Specifically, magic immunity.

Quote
Magic Immunity (Ex)

Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.
Magic immunity would only make Pun-Pun worse. Pun-Pun is already immune to all attacks that might hurt it so magic immunity can only make it immune to things that might help it.

Offline Scottzar

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Let's add another NI sized instant death bubble onto Pun-Pun. Aleax immunities mean he can survive on the seventh mounting heaven of celestia. World-Walker means he is native to that plane while on it. Planar Shepard bubbles + NI duration acorn of far travel gives him a NI sized instant death/absorption bubble.

Only natives of the 7th layer who are planar shepards, Aleax's, or Zodars could survive that.
I think.
I couldn't find any mention of a killing trait. Where did you find it?
Manual of the Planes, Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia, Chronius.
Absorbs good people, permanently destroys evil people.

Oh, and there are more immunities. Look at, say, demilich. Specifically, magic immunity.

Quote
Magic Immunity (Ex)

Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.
Magic immunity would only make Pun-Pun worse. Pun-Pun is already immune to all attacks that might hurt it so magic immunity can only make it immune to things that might help it.
Pun-Pun is already making backups. Any useful spells have already been alter-reality'd onto Pun-Pun, so 1/4 of the Pun Pun's (every  second division) would be given Zodar Immunities and Magic Immunity.

Also, there are a number of (harmless) spells which can kill/harm you. Pays to have insurance.
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Offline Bastian

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Let's add another NI sized instant death bubble onto Pun-Pun. Aleax immunities mean he can survive on the seventh mounting heaven of celestia. World-Walker means he is native to that plane while on it. Planar Shepard bubbles + NI duration acorn of far travel gives him a NI sized instant death/absorption bubble.

Only natives of the 7th layer who are planar shepards, Aleax's, or Zodars could survive that.
I think.
I couldn't find any mention of a killing trait. Where did you find it?
Manual of the Planes, Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia, Chronius.
Absorbs good people, permanently destroys evil people.
That isn't an explicit ability, that is specifically presented as complete speculation. For all we know Bahamut just annihilates anyone who enters.

"Those few who achieve the Illuminated Heaven never return, so no account records Chronias' true aspect. Tales say that those who enter have their inherent goodness magnified until their essence joins with Celestia itself. Or, if they harbor evil, their souls are extinguished and their existence is permanently erased from the multiverse."
Quote
Oh, and there are more immunities. Look at, say, demilich. Specifically, magic immunity.

Quote
Magic Immunity (Ex)

Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.
Magic immunity would only make Pun-Pun worse. Pun-Pun is already immune to all attacks that might hurt it so magic immunity can only make it immune to things that might help it.
Pun-Pun is already making backups. Any useful spells have already been alter-reality'd onto Pun-Pun, so 1/4 of the Pun Pun's (every  second division) would be given Zodar Immunities and Magic Immunity.

Also, there are a number of (harmless) spells which can kill/harm you. Pays to have insurance.
Any 'harmless' spell that can harm/kill you wouldn't effect Pun-Pun do to Singular Enemy(Ex).

Every fourth Pun-Pun could certainly be given them but it would still be pointless since they don't protect Pun-Pun any more than Singular Enemy(Ex) does.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 09:10:25 AM by Bastian »

Offline Kremti

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Waitaminute...does Pun-Pun only have *1* immediate action?  Is there a way for him to get more than 1 (preferably, NI or I)?

-K

Offline AyeGill

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Waitaminute...does Pun-Pun only have *1* immediate action?  Is there a way for him to get more than 1 (preferably, NI or I)?

-K
Would divine impetus not grant NI many more?

Offline Garryl

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Nope, DI only grants swift actions.

Pun-Pun can, at least, use multiple ToB Counters in a round through that Diamond Mind stance.

Pun-Pun can sort of fake NI immediate actions, though. Whenever he's done using one immediate action, he can use a readied action to cast Time Stop, which gives him 2-5 turns. The important part is that when the TS ends, he's on a new turn, so he has a new immediate action again. Rinse and repeat.

Offline Bastian

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During your turn, immediate actions can be taken as many times as one has swift actions. Outside of your turn, you can only take one immediate action. I will add this as a note so people don't get confused.

Quote from: srd
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 02:14:41 PM by Bastian »

Offline Garryl

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Infinite Int + NI feats (NI of which are taken as Font of Inspiration) means NI inspiration points, and thus another source of NI standard actions and also NI Sneak Attack. Also, any other Factotum abilities taken to ridiculous extremes.

Pun-Pun similarly has NI actual power points from taking Psionic Talent NI times (instead of just not needing to spend any from Font of Power).

Offline Agita

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Pun-Pun similarly has NI actual power points from taking Psionic Talent NI times (instead of just not needing to spend any from Font of Power).
Truly inifinite, actually, from NI manifester level + truly infinite Int/Wis/Cha.
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Offline dman11235

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And aren't inspiration points based on int+FoI?  If that's the case, then he has literally infinite inspiration points, and thus....NI factotum abilities?

Any ability base directly off of ability scores (power points, inspiration points, spells per day, turn/rebuke attempts, etc) are truly infinite for him because of infinite ability scores.
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Offline Bastian

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Pun-Pun similarly has NI actual power points from taking Psionic Talent NI times (instead of just not needing to spend any from Font of Power).
Truly inifinite, actually, from NI manifester level + truly infinite Int/Wis/Cha.
Added.
And aren't inspiration points based on int+FoI?  If that's the case, then he has literally infinite inspiration points, and thus....NI factotum abilities?

Any ability base directly off of ability scores (power points, inspiration points, spells per day, turn/rebuke attempts, etc) are truly infinite for him because of infinite ability scores.
They are not based off int sadly enough.

Offline Halinn

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Truly infinite damage (not just melee) with Cunning Insight from Factotum.