Author Topic: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities  (Read 74287 times)

Offline Kremti

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So, I think sometimes we need to compile things that limits *him* or things he *can't* do.  Not that it's much of limitation to have only 1 immediate action per turn, given that he can generate NI-ready-standard-action-he-can-use-whenever-he-wants via Synchronicity, but still, I feel like saying "he can't have the second immediate action" is wrong!

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Offline Halinn

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There's still effectively NI immediate actions. Just do a time stop every time you want one, then you're ready to do it when it ends.

Offline Bastian

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So, I think sometimes we need to compile things that limits *him* or things he *can't* do.  Not that it's much of limitation to have only 1 immediate action per turn, given that he can generate NI-ready-standard-action-he-can-use-whenever-he-wants via Synchronicity, but still, I feel like saying "he can't have the second immediate action" is wrong!

-K
You are right, it is wrong. However it is not wrong because Pun-Pun can get around it, it is wrong because the rules say otherwise.

During your turn, immediate actions can be taken as many times as one has swift actions. Outside of your turn, you can only take one immediate action. I will add this as a note so people don't get confused.

Quote from: srd
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 02:42:41 PM by Bastian »

Offline Kremti

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Fine, splitting hairs.  He can have NI immediate actions during his turn because immediate actions count as swift actions during his turn, but he still can only have 1 immediate action outside of his turn, is what I mean  :P

As I said, it's not *much* of a limitation as he's got NI Syncronicity-readied actions.  But still, one of the point of P-P is that he can bend the rules of D&D to the extreme, but this is one rule he can't get around?   :???

-K

Offline Garryl

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Both Wish and Arcane Fusion can mimic spells that take an immediate action. To use those when it's not your turn you can use Contingency (SLA to let you refresh it each turn), Synchronicity, or that divine spell that gives you an extra readied action.

Quoted for even more ways around the immediate action matter. Still not perfect, as not everything immediate can still be mimicked this way.

Offline Halinn

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If you can get a standard action at any point, you can use that to Time Stop (of which you of course have prepared an infinite amount). Then the immediate action you just used will take a swift action from the next 1d4+1 time stopped rounds, leaving you available to use another afterwards.


Stray thought: infinite charisma + epic leadership = followers of level infinity? Got to be a way to use that to get infinite HD yourself. nvm, there's a max level 20 clause on that :(

Offline dman11235

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Nevermind your nevermind, because Epic Leadership.
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Offline Agita

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Nevermind your nevermind, because Epic Leadership.
Epic Leadership is what caps followers at level 20, actually.
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Offline dman11235

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Oh!  That's what you meant (well, Halinn meant)!  I thought you were talking about number of followers not increasing after YOU reach level 20.  No, but Pun-Pun has infinite followers, of every level, but none above level 20.
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Offline Agita

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Hmm... Any chance of somehow abusing your truly infinite followers to gain truly infinite HD? Probably not...
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Offline dman11235

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Isn't there a PrC for Leadership?  I know Kensai has one ability, but it's not based off Leadership and won't help....

Anyways, I don't think there's a method of turning followers into HD that doesn't work with normal creatures.  Although, this does present a philosophical problem: does this mean that there are an infinite number of intelligent creatures?  Or does this mean that are only a finite number of creatures and every single one is a follower of Pun-Pun, and Pun-Pun has a finite number of followers?
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Offline Agita

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Isn't there a PrC for Leadership?  I know Kensai has one ability, but it's not based off Leadership and won't help....

Anyways, I don't think there's a method of turning followers into HD that doesn't work with normal creatures.  Although, this does present a philosophical problem: does this mean that there are an infinite number of intelligent creatures?  Or does this mean that are only a finite number of creatures and every single one is a follower of Pun-Pun, and Pun-Pun has a finite number of followers?
Well, by the strict rules as written, you're entitled to your truly infinite followers. So if there aren't truly infinitely many followers in the campaigns setting... I guess they appear out of thin air in a puff of continuity.
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Offline dman11235

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Is Pun-Pun omni-present?  If so, every single follower of his (whether it's an infinite amount, or every creature in the universe) is immune to fear effects.  HoB, Legendary Leader 5th level ability.  Pun-Pun is also immune to them, due to the 1st level ability.

New problem with infinite creatures: where are they?  I mean, these rules don't make the universe infinitely big......

Pun-Pun breaks physics once more!

EDIT: I also believe that these followers have infinite attack bonus/damage, due to Epic Inspire Courage.

EDITEDIT: NI attack/damage, due to NI HD for Pun-Pun.

EDITEDITEDIT: maybe infinite?  Is there an ability to grant someone your ability modifier as a bard or something similar?

EDIT: Oh jeeze, this is great: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClasses/highProselytizer.htm
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 01:28:40 PM by dman11235 »
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Offline Agita

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Is Pun-Pun omni-present?  If so, every single follower of his (whether it's an infinite amount, or every creature in the universe) is immune to fear effects.  HoB, Legendary Leader 5th level ability.  Pun-Pun is also immune to them, due to the 1st level ability.

New problem with infinite creatures: where are they?  I mean, these rules don't make the universe infinitely big......

Pun-Pun breaks physics once more!

EDIT: I also believe that these followers have infinite attack bonus/damage, due to Epic Inspire Courage.

EDITEDIT: NI attack/damage, due to NI HD for Pun-Pun.

EDITEDITEDIT: maybe infinite?  Is there an ability to grant someone your ability modifier as a bard or something similar?
Do you mean Epic Inspiration? If so, that'd be NI attack/damage. And also NI HD, incidentally.
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Offline dman11235

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I didn't think it granted additional HD!  That's nice.  The link I posted is to the HIgh Proselytizer, and the first level ability is what I'm talking about.  Anyone within NI distance of Pun-Pun is enraptured with a save to resist of DC infinity.  NI times per day he can do this, and it lasts NI minutes.  Effectively, this means that every crature within NI distance of any Pun-Pun is Charmed, as per Charm Monster.
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Offline Bastian

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Is Pun-Pun omni-present?  If so, every single follower of his (whether it's an infinite amount, or every creature in the universe) is immune to fear effects.  HoB, Legendary Leader 5th level ability.  Pun-Pun is also immune to them, due to the 1st level ability.
Pun-Pun is not omni-present, just nigh-infinitely large with a nigh-infinite number of bodies. Also, yes, Pun-Pun does literally have an infinite number of followers.
Quote
New problem with infinite creatures: where are they?  I mean, these rules don't make the universe infinitely big......
Yes, yes the rules actually do. In fact most of the major planes are each explicitly infinitely large.

I will take a look at everything else (and add them to the list) when I'm free (I'm rather busy right now).


Offline dman11235

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Hmm...so the universes have infinite mass as well?  That solves that problem!  Now the question becomes whether or not he has every creature as a follower or not.  I'm not sure how one would even BEGIN to solve that problem, so any math people want to take a crack at it?  Though, where does it discuss this?  MotP?
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Offline Halinn

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Hmm...so the universes have infinite mass as well?  That solves that problem!  Now the question becomes whether or not he has every creature as a follower or not.  I'm not sure how one would even BEGIN to solve that problem, so any math people want to take a crack at it?  Though, where does it discuss this?  MotP?

Assuming that there are an infinite amount of potential followers at each level, 1-20, it is undefined whether or not every one of them is a follower. (+∞) - (-∞) = +∞, (-∞) + (-∞) = -∞, but (+∞) - (+∞) and (-∞) + (+∞) are both undefined.

Offline Bauglir

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Regarding actions, can we assign them a specific time in a turn's 6 seconds, or only the order they take place in? If the former, I think legitimately infinite actions works out by the expedient of taking your first action 1/2 way through your turn, then your second 1/2 way through the remainder of your turn, and so on and so forth. You reach the end of the sequence at the end of your 6 seconds, having taken infinite actions (rather than arbitrarily many).

Offline Bastian

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Both Wish and Arcane Fusion can mimic spells that take an immediate action. To use those when it's not your turn you can use Contingency (SLA to let you refresh it each turn), Synchronicity, or that divine spell that gives you an extra readied action.

Quoted for even more ways around the immediate action matter. Still not perfect, as not everything immediate can still be mimicked this way.
Added.
Regarding actions, can we assign them a specific time in a turn's 6 seconds, or only the order they take place in? If the former, I think legitimately infinite actions works out by the expedient of taking your first action 1/2 way through your turn, then your second 1/2 way through the remainder of your turn, and so on and so forth. You reach the end of the sequence at the end of your 6 seconds, having taken infinite actions (rather than arbitrarily many).
We can not assign them a specific time and even if we could, it wouldn't help since you could only assign a finite number of actions to take place in that sequence. You can only take a finite number of actions in that sequence since you have to specify when each one of them individually takes place, instead of just setting up an automatic rule specifying when each of them occurs.

EDIT: I also believe that these followers have infinite attack bonus/damage, due to Epic Inspire Courage.

EDITEDIT: NI attack/damage, due to NI HD for Pun-Pun.

EDITEDITEDIT: maybe infinite?  Is there an ability to grant someone your ability modifier as a bard or something similar?
Pun-Pun can do all of that with Manipulate Form so I'm not sure if it should be added.
Quote
EDIT: Oh jeeze, this is great: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClasses/highProselytizer.htm
The Control Creatures divine salient ability supplants that. Thank you for indirectly giving me the idea to look that up. :)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 05:28:09 PM by Bastian »