Author Topic: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]  (Read 34141 times)

Offline Prime32

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2012, 08:55:11 PM »
Taking another look...
This class is supposed to specialise in Wis-based long-distance combat. However, at lv1 Point Blank Shot encourages close-range combat, emphasising Wis over Dex will punish you, Move Silently checks only really matter when you're close to your opponent, and Balance bonuses + Light Step actually encourages charging with a melee weapon. You don't get any sniping-related abilities until lv3.
If it's a sniper then it should be a sniper from lv1, or at least a marksman.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 08:58:38 PM by Prime32 »

Offline dman11235

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2012, 10:38:35 PM »
Yeah, your crit things are ridiculous.  And Prime hit the nail on the head.  You need some sort of sniping ability at level 1.  That's what my suggestion of the alteration on the precision damage range thing was.  I do disagree on the move silently thing being only close, I mean, it does only really matter at close range, but it's more of a stealth thing, which a sniper is supposed to be.

So here's what I think you need to have as a general plan for the class: at level 1 you grant a sniping ability, similar to sneak attack, but designed to be more single high quality shot.  This will be 1d6/level, and require a standard action.  As you level, you grant bonuses to hide, move silently, and movement, much like you have, but use (ex) instead of (sp), and have them be constant abilities.  As you level, grant bonuses to crits, and at around level 11 grant an additional attack as part of the sniping action.  As you level grant a bonus on the attack roll for the snipe, slowly, but steadily, around +1/2 or 3 levels.  Grant either dex or wis to damage (probably wis) at some earlyish level, probably around 5, and the other at level 15 or so.  Capstone ability would be 1/day use a full round action to snipe, granting your sniping bonuses on every arrow and have every shot be at full BAB, possibly with another bonus to attack.  Wisdom doesn't come into play unless you take Zen Archery, except as a secondary, though you can change this.  Zen Archery is a terrible feat design wise though, and needs to change.

I actually have a class similar to this I did as a PrC for a Scout sniper variant, I haven't posted it yet because it's not fleshed out yet and I need to make adjustments.  I was thinking of just making a class variant for the Scout and end up combining the PrC into the base class.  You can still see it on the old boards, under Deepwood Sniper, and yes it's an update of the actual PrC.
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Offline ThisGuy01

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2012, 11:51:58 PM »
Instead of increasing multipliers, why not give them something that rewards them for using a single devastating attack?  What about something like increasing their crit range by 2 for each attack they forgo in a round.  Then additionally giving them bonus damage that can get multiplied, like +xd8 for each attack forgone?

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2012, 08:25:04 AM »
A minor nitpick:

You list the use of Arrowstorm to be at will, and then give it a daily limit at the end of the sentence. Typically, "at will" means "no daily limit" in the world of D&D and daily resources. ;)

Perhaps you meant "as a standard action" or something.
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Offline EjoThims

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2012, 06:45:20 PM »
I would actually disagree with this one, myself... It means she has no penalty at all for attacks at any distance... The 19th level version is essentially setting your range increment to infinite as well as allowing sneak attacks.
And that's supposed to be a bad thing in the crazy-powerful world of lv19s? :huh

Not at all, but it's a strange (and bit of a round about) way of doing it. You go from reducing the effective range increment to granting no penalties at all to range. It would, to me, make far more sense to either do as previously suggested and make sneak attacks work at a greater amount of range increments and later grant (with a separate ability) the ability that eliminates the max range increment or to increase (by multipliers most likely) the effective range increment, capping with making it infinite.

I'll second everything else since my last post though; especially replacing Zen Archery feat with a custom class mechanic with the same idea but a better execution. Doing so is always better than granting bonus feats; it allows a tighter fit with the class, avoids the boredom that is a pile of random feats, and prevents feat shuffling.

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2012, 08:29:51 PM »
Ok, I finally got around to re-working this class.  Another MAJOR OVERHAUL.

What do you think?


A couple questions: 
-I need a name for the “Range” ability.  Also, is the scaling too small?  Too big? 
-I think I still need a capstone.  Suggestions?
-Is there too much at 1st level?  As part of that question, should I give Precise Shot out for free, or let people take it on their own?
-Suggestions for more tricks?
-I need a better name for the Ranged Flanking trick.  Also, is the wording for that ok?

EDIT:  Also, is this Tier 4?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 08:46:27 PM by FireInTheSky »

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2012, 08:54:53 PM »
I'll take a look at the whole thing later, but something is weird with your formatting.  Look at the class features carefully.
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2012, 09:02:56 PM »
Something is weird with your formatting.  Look at the class features carefully.

Did you mean the extra bracket in front of Aim?  That's now fixed.

Or the strange line spacing?  I think that's because of using Superscripts.

Or something else?

Offline dman11235

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2012, 09:51:46 PM »
This is a lot better.  It's still a tad underdeveloped in the main class, but the trick shots are pretty good.  A major concern I have with those, however, is that now you can have a bow with a crit of 12-20x4 or something.  Another: you have Ranged Pin, Trip, Grapple, and Disarm.  These things already exist as feats.  I'd say you probably made tier 4 with this, power and versatility wise.  It's still suffering from a multitude of design flaws, but it is pretty much playable now.  Another problem: your sniper shot is way too complicated.  You have to make a number of attacks to make your single attack viable for a full attack replacement?  Just make it +1-3/+1d4-8.  And actually, I'd make it just damage based on class level, and then have Wis be an attack bonus.  Get rid of Zen Archery.  It'll just be "adds Wis to attack with ranged weapons" much like Smite.  I have to go, so I'm done for now, but this is not an exhaustive list of issues.  Keep in mind your wording and power, including position, of various abilities.
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2012, 10:26:35 PM »
Another problem: your sniper shot is way too complicated.  You have to make a number of attacks to make your single attack viable for a full attack replacement?

Basically, the idea was this:  I'm a 4th level sniper with a 22 Wis.  I take a full-round action to make 1 attack using Aim.  B/c my level is lower than my WisMod, I take 4 extra touch attack rolls against my target.  For each one that hits, my initial attack gets +1 to attack and +1d4 dmg (max +4/+4d4).  And at 13th level with a 22 Wisdom, it would be +3 (from Greater Aim)  and +1d6 from Powerful Aim (max +18/+6d6).

The other thing is that this could happen every round.  Those numbers as maximums don't seem too powerful.  The following two might be.

Just make it +1-3/+1d4-8.

I could just make it +1/+1d4 per level/WisMod (whichever is smaller).  So in that same example, it would be +4/+4d4 straight up.  And at 13th level with a 22 Wisdom, it would be +3 (from Greater Aim) x 6 (WisMod) = +18 to attack and +1d6 x 6 = 6d6 damage. 

And actually, I'd make it just damage based on class level, and then have Wis be an attack bonus.

This way with the same example:  4th level, 22 Wis, +6 attack / +4d4 damage?  13 level, 22 Wis, +6 attack / +13d6 damage?  At 13th level, 13d6 every round seems OP.

A major concern I have with those, however, is that now you can have a bow with a crit of 12-20x4 or something.

The only way this is really OP is that the extra damage from Aim multiplies.  If I change it so that Aim damage DOESN'T multiply, then is 12-20/x4 really that OP?  Especially considering you'd have to spend 6 Trick Shots to get there (5x Sharp Focus, 1x Deadeye Shot)?

You have Ranged Pin, Trip, Grapple, and Disarm.  These things already exist as feats.

I know... :-\   I just felt like I needed more Tricks. (That's what she said???)  Maybe I can beef them up a little bit so that someone would actually want to use them (and thus make it harder to get to 12-20/x4).

Offline dman11235

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2012, 11:08:20 PM »
+13d6 at level 13 is absolutely not OP, especially since you're only getting a single attack per round at that and can't move (barring swift action moves and such) while doing so.  By that level with a Rogue I can be doing....wait, yeah, I'm doing about 14d6 with GMS as a rogue, so this is actually less damage (the Rogue also has double the base damage, but a lower chance of hitting), but right in the range of where you'd want it.

On multiplying Aim damage: did you specify that the damage gets multiplied?  If not, bonus damage dice never get multiplied.  And if so, then change it so that it's not multiplied.  Bonus damage dice is never multiplied.  Add a static damage if you want it to be multiplied (that's always multiplied).

Also, I'd not do the multiplying the attack bonus thing.  Just have it be Wis modifier.  That's reasonable, while making you an almost certain hit, which is what this class need to be able to do.  If you have it a straight Wis to attack, then a normal archer will still be using Dex as a primary, but Wis will likely be larger.  This effectively increases the attack modifier by a secondary or tertiary stat, and investing in Zen Archery will allow a double stat to attack.  This is absolutely not a problem for a character with a primary ability being "only attack once in a round".  You NEED that shot to hit almost every time.
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2012, 11:25:12 PM »
What about just allowing (Greater) Manyshot?  It's described as one attack roll, right?  If we're supposed to think of Cary Elwes in Robin Hood: Men In Tights, him firing 6 arrows to pin the guy to the tree is "one" attack.  Manyshot would only have the bonus Aim damage apply once (as normal) while GMS would have the bonus Aim damage apply to all attacks (as normal).

Offline dman11235

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2012, 11:31:47 PM »
Manyshot is a specific action (standard).  It cannot be used with this (this is a full round action, and even if it modified an attack action MS is not an attack action).  Also, a sniper is single shots, not multiple shots.  If you were planning on using Manyshot to be the primary source of extra damage, then I'd say just use Sneak Attack, and have this be a PrC.  It still probably should be a PrC, but that would make it need that change even more so.  I'm still saying that this should be a PrC or a Scout variant too.  But anyways, GMS is not the route you want to take with this.  It makes it no different than SA, so why would you need to introduce a new system?
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2012, 11:33:41 PM »
Why have ranged pin require them to be wearing clothing? You should be able to pin them to a tree through their body, etc. What it should require is an adjacent object or wall to pin them to. Pinning them to another creature could be fun, but you'd have to come up with rules for it.
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2012, 11:46:58 PM »
And if so, then change it so that it's not multiplied.  Bonus damage dice is never multiplied.

Fixed.

Also, I'd not do the multiplying the attack bonus thing.  Just have it be Wis modifier.  That's reasonable, while making you an almost certain hit, which is what this class need to be able to do.  If you have it a straight Wis to attack, then a normal archer will still be using Dex as a primary, but Wis will likely be larger.  This effectively increases the attack modifier by a secondary or tertiary stat, and investing in Zen Archery will allow a double stat to attack.  This is absolutely not a problem for a character with a primary ability being "only attack once in a round".  You NEED that shot to hit almost every time.

Well, multiplying the attack bonus certainly makes that "need to hit" shot hit most of the time.  But I can see where you're coming from.

Changed.

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2012, 12:00:14 AM »
Why have ranged pin require them to be wearing clothing? You should be able to pin them to a tree through their body, etc. What it should require is an adjacent object or wall to pin them to.

Fixed.


Also, made Pin, Trip, and Two for One all work with Aim.  (It doesn't really make sense for Disarm to work with Aim.)

Offline MetroMagic

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2012, 12:43:08 AM »
Class quote?

"The record sniper shot is 8120 feet. Peek-a-boo!"

Offline MetroMagic

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2012, 01:01:07 AM »
Suggestion on RANGE. Change the definition to be more like what makes a sniper amazing. And keep the name. Or...

(At Home on the) Range (Ex): At 1st level, a Sniper gains a +1 Competence bonus to all ranged attacks, regardless of range increment (normal range penalties still apply), and shots at any range may be attempted; a ranged weapon's maximum range limit does not apply to a Sniper. At 5th level, the range increment of all ranged weapon attacks is doubled. For example, a longbow's range increment becomes 200 feet instead of 100, a -2 penalty applies from 200 to 400 feet, and so on.  At 10th level, the range increment is tripled, and at 15th level, the range increment is quadrupled.  At 20th level, a sniper may attack anyone she can see with no range penalty, and no maximum range.  The competence bonus still applies at all levels.  This ability counts as Point Blank Shot for the purposes of pre-requisites.

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2012, 01:06:12 AM »
(At Home on the) Range (Ex) ...

This is definitely more of what I was thinking.  And it scales much better.  I shall make the appropriate changes.

Offline MetroMagic

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2012, 01:33:28 AM »
RE: I need a better name for the Ranged Flanking trick.  Also, is the wording for that ok?

The name is ok, definitely descriptive. But kind of flat, yeah.

"Tap on the Shoulder"?

"No, I'm Over There?"

I was thinking of names like that from the idea that the Flanking results from distraction... arrow out of nowhere, now the victim is looking around to find the sniper. So it wouldn't necessarily be automatic, but fairly likely at low levels and still a good chance at high levels.

So the writeup could be like this:

No, I'm Over There: Any opponent a Sniper hits with a ranged attack is considered to be flanked for the subsequent round, unless the opponent makes a Concentration check (or a WILL Save?); the DC equals the sniper's level plus the attack roll that hit.