Author Topic: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]  (Read 32571 times)

Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2012, 04:54:20 PM »
Quote
With an ability like this, could you use what you can see with the Scry to have "Line of Sight" to a target?

Probably, but Line of Sight doesn't always mean Line of Effect.
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2012, 10:31:11 PM »
This class doesn't need martial maneuvers. Don't make a class that can do everything.

Make a class that can do NOTHING!

Oh wait, I already did.

Yeah, it's called Grunt.   :P

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2012, 10:33:11 PM »
 :grave
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Offline SneeR

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2012, 07:19:58 PM »
I like that this class can be used for a high-STR/WIS character that dipped barbarian or something to throw weapons like crazy. Can this class lead into Hulking Hurler? I'd have to check again.

This class is nicely flavorful, though Greater Snipe reads to me unclearly enough to allow infinite attacks... Hide, attack, hide at no penalty, attack, hide at no penalty, attack... You don't give an action type for that second Hide check; is it a move action as normal?
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #64 on: May 05, 2012, 12:30:10 AM »
Greater Snipe reads to me unclearly enough to allow infinite attacks... Hide, attack, hide at no penalty, attack, hide at no penalty, attack... You don't give an action type for that second Hide check; is it a move action as normal?

Re-worded.  Better?

Offline SneeR

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #65 on: May 05, 2012, 04:34:43 PM »
Greater Snipe reads to me unclearly enough to allow infinite attacks... Hide, attack, hide at no penalty, attack, hide at no penalty, attack... You don't give an action type for that second Hide check; is it a move action as normal?
Re-worded.  Better?
I feel like I'm being picky, but maybe tell that they are two different abilities. Add an, "In addition..." for the second part, maybe? Up to you.
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #66 on: May 06, 2012, 09:44:46 PM »
Greater Snipe reads to me unclearly enough to allow infinite attacks... Hide, attack, hide at no penalty, attack, hide at no penalty, attack... You don't give an action type for that second Hide check; is it a move action as normal?
Re-worded.  Better?
I feel like I'm being picky, but maybe tell that they are two different abilities. Add an, "In addition..." for the second part, maybe? Up to you.


How about this:

Quote
Greater Snipe (Ex): At 10th level, a Sniper who has successfully Hidden may make a single ranged attack and then immediately Hide at no penalty.  In addition, if a Sniper who has successfully hidden uses a full-round action to attack with a ranged weapon, the penalty to the subsequent Hide check is decreased to -10.


Offline SneeR

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #67 on: May 06, 2012, 09:47:09 PM »
That is fantastic, Fire-san! Much clearer!

EDIT: I wish this class were made by WotC. It is the quintessential sniping class, and I love it! It would compliment my sniper Factotum perfectly! Hey, is there any chance you could make a feat that bases it on INT instead of WIS? It would assist the archetype of, "I've been studying up on anatomy, so be assured I'll hit his arteries with every shot."
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 10:20:23 PM by SneeR »
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #68 on: May 07, 2012, 02:14:22 AM »
That is fantastic, Fire-san! Much clearer!

EDIT: I wish this class were made by WotC. It is the quintessential sniping class, and I love it! It would compliment my sniper Factotum perfectly! Hey, is there any chance you could make a feat that bases it on INT instead of WIS? It would assist the archetype of, "I've been studying up on anatomy, so be assured I'll hit his arteries with every shot."


I'm glad you like it!  As you can tell from all the old comments, I've put a lot of work into it.

How about something like this:

Quote
Studied Killer
Extensive analysis has provided the Sniper with intimate knowledge of all types of bodies, and their weak points.
Pre-requisite: Sniper's Aim ability.
Benefit: All of a Sniper's class abilites based on Wisdom are instead based on Intelligence.

My concern with this is that it seems too specific.  Especially if there's only 1 feet feat.  If there were more Sniper feats, then this one would certainly fit in.  To some extent, I'm not really sure about other Sniper feats, since most of what would have been feats turned into Trick Shots.  If you have suggestions for other feats that don't really fit as Trick Shots, lmk. (Also, if you have suggestions for other Trick Shots, I'd like to hear them as well.)

Offline SneeR

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #69 on: May 07, 2012, 02:25:54 AM »
What about a trick shot that bonks them on the head and stuns them? Would only work on creatures with discernible anatomy?
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #70 on: May 07, 2012, 12:17:57 PM »
What about a trick shot that bonks them on the head and stuns them? Would only work on creatures with discernible anatomy?

Check it out:

Quote
Lights Out:
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: With this trick, a Sniper may substitute a Ranged Touch Attack for a normal attack.  If this attack succeeds, instead of dealing normal damage, the target must make a Fortitude Save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds.  The Save DC for this ability is 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Wisdom Modifier.
Special: This trick does not affect creatures normally immune to Stunning.  This trick only works on creatures with discernible anatomy.  Using this trick does not count against uses of the Weak Spot trick.

Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #71 on: May 07, 2012, 12:45:29 PM »
What about a trick shot that bonks them on the head and stuns them? Would only work on creatures with discernible anatomy?

Check it out:

Quote
Lights Out:
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: With this trick, a Sniper may substitute a Ranged Touch Attack for a normal attack.  If this attack succeeds, instead of dealing normal damage, the target must make a Fortitude Save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds.  The Save DC for this ability is 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Wisdom Modifier.
Special: This trick does not affect creatures normally immune to Stunning.  This trick only works on creatures with discernible anatomy.  Using this trick does not count against uses of the Weak Spot trick.

And next up, the Boxing Glove arrow! :)
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Offline EjoThims

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2012, 07:44:31 PM »
This looks incrediably, edibly, wonderfully so much better...  :love :love

But there are still a few small issues...

The mechanic of Aim is a little awkward, at least in it's wording.

(click to show/hide)

And 18th level just doesn't make sense. You're already allowing the class to mundanely hide in any situation (though it would be better to base it off of Shadowdancer's HiPS, the ranger version needs camouflage to work properly) but then suddenly converting it to being magic based instead??? Just make sure that the HiPS version you give this class works without cover or concealment and give them the Darkstalker feat at some point (allowing them to hide against scent and blindsight and such).

Also the 19th and 20th level abilities are ridiculously weak.

1/day death attack at level 19? Seriously? It's level 19. Just make ALL Aim attacks be a save or die. This would make an immediate action Aim step very dangerous and tactically viable.

Whirlwind attack as a level 20 capstone? Seriously? Even with my suggested level 19 ability this is weak. Uncap it and swap it with my recommendation for level 19.

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #73 on: May 11, 2012, 12:23:45 AM »
The mechanic of Aim is a little awkward, at least in it's wording.

If I am understanding your intent correctly, this is how it works as it scales.

Full round action for one attack.
Standard action for one attack but full round action for full attack.
Move action for one attack but full round action for full attack.

It would be less awkward to simply make it take a full round action to take a full attack with X bonuses. This allows auto scaling of number of attacks as they gain them. Then simply make the speedier versions allow one attack with aim bonuses as a standard and then a move. I would also recommend adding in an immediate action step.

Clarified.  Added Immediate Action Aim at 18th (instead of Unseen Assassin).

Quote from: EjoThims
And 18th level just doesn't make sense. You're already allowing the class to mundanely hide in any situation (though it would be better to base it off of Shadowdancer's HiPS, the ranger version needs camouflage to work properly) but then suddenly converting it to being magic based instead??? Just make sure that the HiPS version you give this class works without cover or concealment and give them the Darkstalker feat at some point (allowing them to hide against scent and blindsight and such).

Added Darkstalker.  Added HiPS wording.

Quote from: EjoThims
Also the 19th and 20th level abilities are ridiculously weak.

1/day death attack at level 19? Seriously? It's level 19. Just make ALL Aim attacks be a save or die. This would make an immediate action Aim step very dangerous and tactically viable.

Whirlwind attack as a level 20 capstone? Seriously? Even with my suggested level 19 ability this is weak. Uncap it and swap it with my recommendation for level 19.

Swapped Fire All and One Shot Kill. 

For uncapping Fire All, did you mean the uses per encounter or the number of targets in the attack?  Or both?  For the moment, I got rid of the max number of targets.

For One Shot Kill, instead of making it every Aim attack, I made it a single attack as a standard action (with Aim bonuses), but I did uncap the uses/day.  I didn't want to make it every attack of a full-attack action, because that doesn't really seem like a "sniper-y" thing.



Also, added a few of Trick Shots ((Improved) Dimensional Shot, Phase Shot).  Is the wording for those ok/understandable?  And I alphabetized the Class Abilities in the table.

Offline EjoThims

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2012, 04:57:59 PM »
Swapped Fire All and One Shot Kill. 

For uncapping Fire All, did you mean the uses per encounter or the number of targets in the attack?  Or both?  For the moment, I got rid of the max number of targets.

Yes, I had meant uncap the targets.

I would also recommend switching the wording from "any opponent she can see" to "all opponents she can see," thereby clarifying that there is no limit to the targets.

For One Shot Kill, instead of making it every Aim attack, I made it a single attack as a standard action (with Aim bonuses), but I did uncap the uses/day.  I didn't want to make it every attack of a full-attack action, because that doesn't really seem like a "sniper-y" thing.

Sorry, I should have clarified. I meant all individual Aim attacks, those not used with a full attack, so your capstone is choosing between full attacks with high damage or single attacks that are always save or dies. The way you've changed it has the same result, though, so all is good.  :D


So much yummier now...  :thumb

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #75 on: May 14, 2012, 04:41:18 AM »
I would also recommend switching the wording from "any opponent she can see" to "all opponents she can see," thereby clarifying that there is no limit to the targets.

Fixed.

Does the wording for Dimension Shot, Imp Dim Shot, and Phase Shot all make sense?


Quote from: EjoThims
So much yummier now...  :thumb

Sweet!   :D

I can't wait to play one and see how it all actually goes together.  I have a feeling that it's going to be hard to pick Trick Shots - at least I hope it is!

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #76 on: May 14, 2012, 07:34:13 AM »
I can't wait to play one and see how it all actually goes together.  I have a feeling that it's going to be hard to pick Trick Shots - at least I hope it is!

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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #77 on: May 15, 2012, 03:11:43 AM »
Added two more Trick Shots:  Critical Shot & Penetrating Shot


EDIT:  So, now I have 21 Trick Shots, some of which can be taken multiple times.  I'm thinking about making the Extra Trick feat takeable multiple times, up to a number of times = sniper level.  Thoughts?

EDIT EDIT:  Added two Sniper Feats: (Improved) Alert Reaction.  Is the wording on those clear?  Also changed the wording for the Extra Trick feat to make it takeable a number of times = iterative attacks.

MORE EDIT: Added Cunning Veil class feature.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 07:37:08 PM by FireInTheSky »

Offline VennDygrem

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #78 on: May 18, 2012, 02:26:56 PM »
Limiting Extra Trick to equal sniper level only really affects first level, since by third level you won't really be able to take it that much (assuming it was limited from first level). Thereafter, the limit just gets that much more useless.

Honestly, I wouldn't bother with a limit. Limiting it so one can't take it multiple times at first level doesn't work since you don't get trick shot until second level. Even if it did its job, most of the trick shots have prerequisites. Honestly I don't believe the limit does any good. If someone wants to use up all their free feats on Extra Trick, they ought to be able to. With so many trick shots available, there are too many to choose from. Let the sniper broaden their skillset a bit. :D

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #79 on: May 18, 2012, 08:22:24 PM »
Limiting Extra Trick to equal sniper level only really affects first level, since by third level you won't really be able to take it that much (assuming it was limited from first level). Thereafter, the limit just gets that much more useless.

Honestly, I wouldn't bother with a limit. Limiting it so one can't take it multiple times at first level doesn't work since you don't get trick shot until second level. Even if it did its job, most of the trick shots have prerequisites. Honestly I don't believe the limit does any good. If someone wants to use up all their free feats on Extra Trick, they ought to be able to. With so many trick shots available, there are too many to choose from. Let the sniper broaden their skillset a bit. :D

I guess I was just worried that some of the tricks were better enough than the feats that people might take that it would be a little unbalanced.  Especially if people classed into Feater!   :P  Or - as a more likely possibilty - dipping 2 levels of Sniper to get Trick Shot, and then taking Extra Trick a bunch of times.  I don't know if it would be as powerful as I'm imagining though.  Particularly since, as you said, after 1st, you don't get a lot of feats.

Alright, you (and I) talked me into it!  Uncapped it is!