Author Topic: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]  (Read 34158 times)

Offline MetroMagic

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2012, 01:50:29 AM »
RE: I think I still need a capstone.  Suggestions?

You have increasing mobility through various types of "Xwalk".

Here is a capstone "Xwalk" that plays well with the other capstone ability, line of sight shooting:

Shotwalk: At 20th level, as a Move action the sniper may 'follow' a shot; the sniper may Teleport to the location of a target of a ranged attack the sniper makes that hits that target, even if that location is on another Plane (for example, if the sniper shot at a target through a Gate). The sniper may appear anywhere within 20 feet of the location along the line of the shot, facing the point of impact of the shot. If the shot has not yet impacted any target in the round following the attack, the sniper may follow it to its current location and then continue to follow it from round to round until the shot does make impact.

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2012, 02:35:18 AM »
Shotwalk: At 20th level, as a Move action the sniper may 'follow' a shot; the sniper may Teleport to the location of a target of a ranged attack the sniper makes that hits that target, even if that location is on another Plane (for example, if the sniper shot at a target through a Gate). The sniper may appear anywhere within 20 feet of the location along the line of the shot, facing the point of impact of the shot. If the shot has not yet impacted any target in the round following the attack, the sniper may follow it to its current location and then continue to follow it from round to round until the shot does make impact.

This is a really cool idea.  I'm not sure how it would scale backwards from the 20th lvl ability though.  ...Or did you mean as the 20th level ability of Light Step?  That makes more sense.  I'll put it in!  One question though: do you have to attack a person for this to work?  "See that tree 10 miles away... I'm going to hit it!"  *poof*  Teleported there.



Separately, I just realized that the +1 Competence bonus to all ranged attack from the (At Home on the) Range ability doesn't really make sense.  I'm going to take that out, and just make the Aim ability count as Point Blank Shot.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 02:49:22 AM by FireInTheSky »

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2012, 03:12:53 AM »
Ok.  Added Shotwalk, changed (At Home on the) Range and Aim as I said earlier.

Also, made Aim much more useful with Fast Aim and Accelerated Aim. (...NOW WITH BETTER AIM!!!  :P)

Offline MetroMagic

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2012, 03:14:57 AM »
20th level capstone for Light Step, yes.

I also intended it for abuse to allow long-range movement for the sniper:

I can see... the sun. I shoot it. Now I Teleport after my shot... still Teleporting... still Teleporting... hmmm. That arrow isn't going to make it, it's falling into the ocean and so am I. OK, before I fall in, from three miles up (now I get why they call it *terminal* velocity) I can see that cloud from here; I'm shooting it.... now I Teleport toward the cloud and not fall in! Yay! By nightfall I'll be across the ocean, if the weather holds for good visibility. I think I'll buy a Ring of Featherfall, before I try this again...

(I've got no problem with this; the character is 20th level!)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 03:20:59 AM by MetroMagic »

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2012, 03:25:57 AM »
I can see... the sun. I shoot it. Now I Teleport after my shot... still Teleporting... still Teleporting... hmmm. That arrow isn't going to make it, it's falling into the ocean and so am I. OK, before I fall in, from three miles up (now I get why they call it *terminal* velocity) I can see that cloud from here; I'm shooting it.... now I Teleport toward the cloud and not fall in! Yay! By nightfall I'll be across the ocean, if the weather holds for good visibility. I think I'll buy a Ring of Featherfall, before I try this again...

 :lmao

Love it!



Question for the experts (not the Experts - none of you would be that):  Once you get Fast Aim, if you make a Full Attack, should you be able to use Aim multiple times in the same round?  As the simplest example, at 8th level, your BAB gives you a second attack.  At this point your Aim bonus damage is 8d4.  Should a character be able to semi-reliably do 16d4 damage/round?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 03:32:36 AM by FireInTheSky »

Offline MetroMagic

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2012, 03:37:15 AM »
Wild idea, I'll just put this out there and let everyone else play with it to come up with the weirdness too.

A Trick Shot? Another high-level class feature?

Two from the same wild idea:

Escape Velocity... and/or... Ballistic Shot

I shot an arrow into the air.
It fell to earth I know not where.
Wait... it didn't.

(Maybe there's a crossover PrC here, between Sniper and Powerbard; after all, they both use stringed instruments... the whole Longfellow reference is:

I shot an Arrow into the air
It fell to earth I know not where,
For so swiftly it flew, the sight
Could not follow it in its flight.

I breath'd a Song into the air
It fell to earth, I know not where.
For who has sight so keen and strong
That it can follow the flight of a song?

Long, long afterward in an oak
I found the Arrow still unbroke;
And the Song from begining to end
I found again in the heart of a friend. )
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 03:44:14 AM by MetroMagic »

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2012, 09:28:03 PM »
Added a new capstone, moved some things around, made a couple of clarifications.  I'm not sure about the name for the capstone.  Ideas?

EDIT: Also added a couple of new Trick Shots!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 03:09:11 AM by FireInTheSky »

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2012, 08:06:39 AM »
Get rid of the parenthetical for (at home on the) range, it really clutters up the table.  Call the ability "rangefinder".

Don't use superscripts for level things, it makes the line and word spacing look weird.  Just say "3rd" (or whatever).

The second part of Fast Aim is meaningless; you can't do a Full Attack and a Standard Action at the same time.  I really think you should decouple Aim from the attack.  Make Aim a move action which applies the bonus to your next attack in the same round; later it becomes a swift action, and then it applies to all attacks in a round.

Shotwalk is very bizarre, I'm not sure if I like it.  It might work more cleanly if you just shoot a target so hard they have to make a save or be planeshifted to a random plane.

I like the capstone, except... it's basically the same as a 4th-level Ranger spell (arrowstorm), except that it trades semi-unlimited distance for capping the # of attacks.

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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2012, 08:11:23 AM »
The class seems really dip friendly. With one level, you get the ability to ignore Point Blank Shot as a prereq, Precise Shot, and a better version of Far Shot that stacks with Far Shot. I'd consider bumping the last ability up to level 2 and swap it with something like Trackless Step or whatever. With Aim and Precise Shot, you already get the feel of a sniper at first level, and you should be fairly effective.


Also, I'm confused about how Fast Aim and Accelerated Aim work. Do they stack with other sources of extra attacks such as Rapid Shot or Haste? I'm looking at the wording:

Quote
Fast Aim (Ex): At 5th level, a Sniper may use her Aim ability as a Standard Action.  If she gets multiple attacks with a Full-Attack Action, a Sniper may apply her Aim bonuses to all of them.

Accelerated Aim (Ex): A Sniper of 13th level can use her Aim ability as a Move Action.

I guess even with three attacks at level 5, you're only adding 15d4 damage, which is about 37.5 damage. This is still solidly under uber-charger territory.

Can you combine Fast Aim and Accelerated Aim in one round? Normally, you get a standard action and a move action in one round, and nothing in Accelerated Aim says it replaces Fast Aim, so it seems legal. I'm going to assume you weren't planning on handing out two full attacks at 13th level with 13d6 damage on top of each one and +Wis to hit.

Personally, I don't think you should be handing out full attacks on a move action, although I could see allowing something like this to stack as a capstone, or maybe at high teen levels. It's sort of like that 9th level Diamond Mind maneuver.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 08:13:27 AM by RobbyPants »
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2012, 08:34:41 AM »
Get rid of the parenthetical for (at home on the) range, it really clutters up the table.  Call the ability "rangefinder".

Don't use superscripts for level things, it makes the line and word spacing look weird.  Just say "3rd" (or whatever).

Changed.

The second part of Fast Aim is meaningless; you can't do a Full Attack and a Standard Action at the same time.  I really think you should decouple Aim from the attack.  Make Aim a move action which applies the bonus to your next attack in the same round; later it becomes a swift action, and then it applies to all attacks in a round.
Also, I'm confused about how Fast Aim and Accelerated Aim work. Do they stack with other sources of extra attacks such as Rapid Shot or Haste? I'm looking at the wording:

Quote
Fast Aim (Ex): At 5th level, a Sniper may use her Aim ability as a Standard Action.  If she gets multiple attacks with a Full-Attack Action, a Sniper may apply her Aim bonuses to all of them.

Accelerated Aim (Ex): A Sniper of 13th level can use her Aim ability as a Move Action.

I guess even with three attacks at level 5, you're only adding 15d4 damage, which is about 37.5 damage. This is still solidly under uber-charger territory.

Can you combine Fast Aim and Accelerated Aim in one round? Normally, you get a standard action and a move action in one round, and nothing in Accelerated Aim says it replaces Fast Aim, so it seems legal. I'm going to assume you weren't planning on handing out two full attacks at 13th level with 13d6 damage on top of each one and +Wis to hit.

I'm not trying to say that Fast Aim lets people take a Full-Attack Action as a Standard Action.  I'm trying to say that when people take a Full-Attack Action once they have Fast Aim, all of their attacks get the Aim bonus, instead of having to only take 1 Attack as a Full-Attack Action.

[MORE EDIT:]  A simple example.  At 8th level, you get your second attack from BAB (I'm assuming for this example you don't have a speed weapon / haste / rapid shot / whatever).  Without Fast Aim, you'd make a single attack as a full attack action.  Well, now you actually have a second attack that you're basically wasting.  With Fast Aim, now your Standard Action single attack gets the Aim bonus.  And with the move action that you get back with FA, you could move (...duh :P).  Or, instead of taking your single attack and moving, you could take a Full Attack.  When you take a Full Attack with Fast Aim, both (or all) of your attacks get the Aim bonus.

Now, when you get Accelerated Aim, you can take a single attack with your Aim bonus as a move action, and then you can do whatever you want for your standard action.  Or you can still take a full attack action and get your Aim bonus on all attacks.

What should the wording be to get all of that across without actually putting in that example?  Or should I put in that example?
[/EDIT]


The class seems really dip friendly. With one level, you get the ability to ignore Point Blank Shot as a prereq, Precise Shot, and a better version of Far Shot that stacks with Far Shot. I'd consider bumping the last ability up to level 2 and swap it with something like Trackless Step or whatever.

Seems reasonable.  Done.

EDIT:
I like the capstone, except... it's basically the same as a 4th-level Ranger spell (arrowstorm), except that it trades semi-unlimited distance for capping the # of attacks.

So, get rid of the cap on attacks?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 09:00:13 AM by FireInTheSky »

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2012, 09:05:24 AM »
What should the wording be to get all of that across without actually putting in that example?  Or should I put in that example?
Note that the standard or move-action version only applies to one attack. You may gain the Aim bonus to all of your attacks from a full attack as a full-round action.

I didn't realize that it could be used to do two different things.
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2012, 09:10:02 AM »
What should the wording be to get all of that across without actually putting in that example?  Or should I put in that example?
Note that the standard or move-action version only applies to one attack. You may gain the Aim bonus to all of your attacks from a full attack as a full-round action.

Changed.


...and off to work.

Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2012, 12:24:09 PM »
Fire, I'm just pulling a Copy Pasta of the message I sent you, so that others can reflect off of what I mentioned, and possibly help out:

I gave it a read and there are few iffy' things that I noticed.

First, at 16th level the Sniper no longer has to worry about range increments and can fire at any target in line of sight. This is the Epic Feat "Distance Shot". Now, Distance Shot has the prerequisites of Dex 25, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Spot 20 ranks. I don't know if you really want to give a class an epic feat at 16th. 20th maybe, but 16th?

Speaking of 20th, that's not just an epic feat too it's actually BETTER! Swarm of Arrows lets you rain down doom at your base attack bonus to every enemy in 30 feet as a full action.

I looked at this class, and while it's a sniper, and has lots of movement and hiding and what not, it has no Save or Die ability. Why not give them the Pathfinder Ranger 20th level ability of "Once Per Day, an arrow you fire is an Arrow of Slaying." deal. A 20th level sniper should be able to literally just command someone to die by twanging an arrow, or whatever sound effect arrows make.


Okay, so Light Step. It's WIS mod / day or Class Level / Day... which means after fifth level, it's Class Level / Day. Why not pick one :) Either make it Wisdom Mod / Day for each of them (Because if you need to cast Water Walk more then 3 times a day, something is terribly wrong), or just let them do it whenever they want after 10th level. Since you'll be using your class level as the caster level (Which you didn't mention but I assumed), most of these will last long enough to get you either to a great vantage point (In the cases of Spider Climb and Water Walk)... or to Valhalla (In the case of Air Walk).

Now, ShotWalk. It sounds really interesting, but the ultimate question is Why? I'm a Sniper. I have a spot, and I'm not leaving it. Now, if I'm discovered and people are trying to kill me, then I can use the ability to fire at anything I can see to shoot the horizon and leave combat 11 miles behind me. Sure, that's handy. But there's no way I'm going to teleport within 30 feet of the guy I just shot. He's probably either dead, or super-pissed off.

What you may want to consider are things like "You can scry on the location of anywhere your shots hit" or something like that. Perhaps also include a class feature that says "Non-magical arrows and bolts that you fire that miss don't ever break" and then later on "Magical arrows and bolts you fire that miss only break 50% of the time" to let snipers recover arrows better. Also account for folks taking levels in Sniper that aren't using a bow (Since it isn't a pre-requisite). You could take this class with someone who throws axes or javelins. Or small countries (See "Hulking Hurler" for details).

Cause you know someone on this board will class into Sniper from HH and when they're discovered, they'll throw the tree they're hiding in at someone.

Other then that, I think this is cool. I like the trick shots! Though, a few of them replace feats. Will they replace the feat for the purposes of qualifying for stuff as well. I know Ranged Disarm is a feat, for instance.
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2012, 01:21:46 PM »
First, at 16th level the Sniper no longer has to worry about range increments and can fire at any target in line of sight. This is the Epic Feat "Distance Shot". Now, Distance Shot has the prerequisites of Dex 25, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Spot 20 ranks. I don't know if you really want to give a class an epic feat at 16th. 20th maybe, but 16th?
I wouldn't use epic feats as a bench mark. Many of them are pretty lame. By 16th level, casters are whipping around 8th level spells, so I'm not too worried about an archer being able to shoot at anything he can see.

Plus, remember that the Spot rules limit how far you can effectively see, anyway.
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Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2012, 02:00:03 PM »
I tend to use Epic Feats as benchmarks regardless of how lame they are because the Epic Level handbook has no middle ground. Either something is terrible, and has no place in any book, or it can single handedly destroy the world.

So it's a 50 / 50 shot for utter broken, and by the time you would normally qualify for this feat, you've got at least 20 ranks in Spot, which kinda gives the finger to the "Spot rules limit sight distance" aspect. Plus if you're going for distance, you've got more then just the requisite 20 ranks. So you can spot something on the horizon, adjust for wind, and plink it.

Plus, you can hit 20 ranks in spot by level 17, so it's not technically "Post 20" material, but if I recall it's listed as [Epic] so you'd have to wait until post 20 anyway.

Caster are whipping around 8th level spells, and luckily, with that class ability you can technically outrange their long range Abracapocalypse
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2012, 03:39:55 PM »
Caster are whipping around 8th level spells, and luckily, with that class ability you can technically outrange their long range Abracapocalypse
You'd need both an area wide open enough to take advantage of it, and a ridiculously high Spot mod. Note that every ten feet adds a -1 penalty to the check. At 16th level, a Long range spell reaches 1040 feet (400 + 40 per level). That's a -104 penalty on your Spot check.

Granted, it's likely they can't spot you at that distance either, but my point is that ignoring range increments doesn't really translate into unlimited range.
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Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #56 on: May 03, 2012, 03:56:24 PM »
In which case it becomes an arms race to see either who rolls a natural 20 on a spot first, or who notices who first, which essentially places most encounters in the same venue as Dungeon Encounters where line of encounter is limited by the room or hallway you are in, which limits everyone equally. 8th level spells don't let you cast around corners (Though they can level an entire dungeon) so ultimately it's back to Who Spots Who First. :)

Be sure to bring a mirror to check around corners.
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2012, 03:57:24 PM »
First, at 16th level the Sniper no longer has to worry about range increments and can fire at any target in line of sight. This is the Epic Feat "Distance Shot". Now, Distance Shot has the prerequisites of Dex 25, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Spot 20 ranks. I don't know if you really want to give a class an epic feat at 16th. 20th maybe, but 16th?
I wouldn't use epic feats as a bench mark. Many of them are pretty lame. By 16th level, casters are whipping around 8th level spells, so I'm not too worried about an archer being able to shoot at anything he can see.

Plus, remember that the Spot rules limit how far you can effectively see, anyway.
I think I agree with RobbyPants here.  Sable, if it made you feel better, I could move that ability to 17th, so theoretically the Spot requirement could be fulfilled.


Quote from: Sneaky_Sable
Speaking of 20th, that's not just an epic feat too it's actually BETTER! Swarm of Arrows lets you rain down doom at your base attack bonus to every enemy in 30 feet as a full action.
Yeah.  I kept going back and forth about whether it should be 30' or any distance.  The compromise I came to was Any Distance, but limited the number of attacks to WisMod.  Now, depending on the char('s WisMod), that could potentially be more than would be attacked by ArrowStorm, but it might not.

Quote from: Sneaky_Sable
I looked at this class, and while it's a sniper, and has lots of movement and hiding and what not, it has no Save or Die ability. Why not give them the Pathfinder Ranger 20th level ability of "Once Per Day, an arrow you fire is an Arrow of Slaying." deal. A 20th level sniper should be able to literally just command someone to die by twanging an arrow, or whatever sound effect arrows make.

Now, ShotWalk. It sounds really interesting, but the ultimate question is Why? I'm a Sniper. I have a spot, and I'm not leaving it. Now, if I'm discovered and people are trying to kill me, then I can use the ability to fire at anything I can see to shoot the horizon and leave combat 11 miles behind me. Sure, that's handy. But there's no way I'm going to teleport within 30 feet of the guy I just shot. He's probably either dead, or super-pissed off.
On second twelfth read of the ability, I think I agree about Shotwalk.  It's a cool idea, but it's too complicated, and doesn't really fit.  To address both of the issues you raised here, I think I'll replace Shotwalk with a Save-or-Die ability.  "One Shot Kill"?

Quote from: Sneaky_Sable
What you may want to consider are things like "You can scry on the location of anywhere your shots hit" or something like that.
With an ability like this, could you use what you can see with the Scry to have "Line of Sight" to a target?

Quote from: Sneaky_Sable
Okay, so Light Step. It's WIS mod / day or Class Level / Day... which means after fifth level, it's Class Level / Day. Why not pick one :) Either make it Wisdom Mod / Day for each of them (Because if you need to cast Water Walk more then 3 times a day, something is terribly wrong), or just let them do it whenever they want after 10th level. Since you'll be using your class level as the caster level (Which you didn't mention but I assumed), most of these will last long enough to get you either to a great vantage point (In the cases of Spider Climb and Water Walk)... or to Valhalla (In the case of Air Walk).
Changed to WisMod/day, and added clarification about caster level.

Quote from: Sneaky_Sable
Perhaps also include a class feature that says "Non-magical arrows and bolts that you fire that miss don't ever break" and then later on "Magical arrows and bolts you fire that miss only break 50% of the time" to let snipers recover arrows better.
I'm not sure if any DMs actually make players keep track of non-magical ammo.  Magical ammo on the other hand (Arrow of Bone?) could be a different story.  I'll add something for both, even if the non-magical part is just fluff.

Quote from: Sneaky_Sable
Also account for folks taking levels in Sniper that aren't using a bow (Since it isn't a pre-requisite). You could take this class with someone who throws axes or javelins. Or small countries (See "Hulking Hurler" for details).

Cause you know someone on this board will class into Sniper from HH and when they're discovered, they'll throw the tree they're hiding in at someone.
:lol Talk about a Ranged Pin!  There's actually nothing anywhere in the meat of the class that says anything about using a bow.  I think the only thing is at the beginning where it says "A Wisdom-based Archer," and "Wisdom-based Ranged Attacker" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.  Any suggestions for better wording?

Quote from: Sneaky_Sable
I like the trick shots!
:D  I'm glad!  I do too.

Quote from: Sneaky_Sable
Though, a few of them replace feats. Will they replace the feat for the purposes of qualifying for stuff as well. I know Ranged Disarm is a feat, for instance.
I added language to make them count as pre-req's.  Also, I wanted to make them a little better than the feats, so that someone might actually want to take them.  Any ideas on that subject?  Or ideas for other Trick Shots?




EDIT:  I'm considering adding some Heimlich Martial Maneuvers, but I've never really done anything with them.  Any suggestions for Disciplines or Stances?  Do they really go with a ranged specialist?  Or do the Trick Shots kind of replace them?  Would it be too much to have both Maneuvers AND Trick Shots?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 04:15:56 PM by FireInTheSky »

Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2012, 04:51:38 PM »
This class doesn't need martial maneuvers. Don't make a class that can do everything.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2012, 04:52:57 PM »
This class doesn't need martial maneuvers. Don't make a class that can do everything.

Make a class that can do NOTHING!

Oh wait, I already did.
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