Author Topic: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion  (Read 5973 times)

Offline ariasderros

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Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« on: January 11, 2012, 11:52:54 PM »
Extract Gift Mini-Handbook
Discuss it here.

Is there anything else ya'll would like to see put into it?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 04:43:42 PM by ariasderros »
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Offline Tr011

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2012, 01:30:22 AM »
To get a really high ability modifier you need more than just a monster that has it high. You need buffs. I am a bit busy right now but I can post some tomorrow.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2012, 01:37:24 AM »
Actually, I've been toying with the idea of putting up how a 4-man level 16 party can get a +21 bonus to all stats from this spell. I was thinking that may be too TO for handbook content.

Though I could put a link to the stat boosting thread.
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Offline Tr011

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2012, 01:52:22 AM »
lol +21 would be pretty hard, but there are some spells that are just like WOOOOOOH for increasing CL. I.e. that spells from Towers of High Society (I think it was Dragonlance) that shifts another guys caster level to you. Just crazy how high you can get with that and that kill-for-CL-spell.

The main problem is still the ability modifier if you do not have a demon in your party. I am trying to prepare a +10 enhancement bonus to int for my actual wizard, but it needs hard preparation because I don't know how to get a high-int demon. The solution in here for me is either to use that 25-int demon from FC1 or Nalfeshnee from MM1 (22 int). I'll summon it via Greater Planar Binding and summon a fiend of possession. Confessing both to agree will be hard, then the fiend gives +4 profane to the Nalfeshnee's int. I'll command him to UMD those cheesy horseshoes for +10. Mushroom powder (+2 alchemistic int), a scroll of Greater Visage of the Deity (+4) and a scroll of necrotic empowerment (+8 enhancement) will get him a total of 50 int. That's enough for my +10 bonus. Omg, making my familiar a demon would be awesome...

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2012, 02:12:14 AM »
Ahem, or hire a SCM with access to miracle to shadow-miracle two Simulacrum of these: Ha-Naga (ELH p195); Draconic (RotD p74); Pherenic (XPH p205); Multi-Headed, 29 extra heads (SS p125); Half-Fiend (MM p148); Paragon (ELH p209) with the higher stats form the elite ability score array, and the levels, into Int for a creature with 39 HD and an Int of 60.

Boost the first one. Profane bonus (from possession) of 4, Enhancement of 6 (spell w/ ability enhancement feat), and the shoes for 10. Ending at 80. Then have it take the form of a demon with polymorph. EG it onto the other one granting it an enhancement of 17. Switch shoes and possessor to number 2, and have it poly too. EG #2 to #1 for 20. Repeat back for +21.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2012, 11:23:47 AM »
My guy is on this.  :)
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Offline Amechra

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2012, 11:22:15 PM »
Hmmm... I haven't read the spell itself in a while, so...

If you were to, say, Planar Bind two Lilitu, and use Extract Gift to give one of them a +5 Enhancement bonus to Charisma, could you loop that to give you a +6 to Charisma?

For another, probably easier method of grabbing a small bonus to your Charisma, Succubi are listed as possible cohorts (they are ECL 12, though, so...); give her a couple character levels as you yourself level, and she would get the Elite Array for her ability scores; that would bump her up to Charisma 30, officially matching the Lilitu, which can be further buffed with a variety of magic items (give her a Cape of Charisma +4; you can get a +6 bonus out of her with the spell.)

You can also give her nifty little abilities to keep her eyes on you; all in all, it is win-win.
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Offline Maat Mons

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2012, 05:57:10 AM »
I just noticed horn of gorgon (Complete Champion, p132), which makes any spell that gives a bonus to strength give an extra +2. 

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2012, 12:26:16 PM »
I just noticed horn of gorgon (Complete Champion, p132), which makes any spell that gives a bonus to strength give an extra +2.
Well, for the purposes of buffing Str, I link to your handbook on stat increacing, so, umm, yeah. Granted, that lets you go past the CL cap on EG, but since you can buff the creature you're gimping from's Str by abusing Consumptive Field (even w/o the TO of looping it).

Hmmm... I haven't read the spell itself in a while, so...

If you were to, say, Planar Bind two Lilitu, and use Extract Gift to give one of them a +5 Enhancement bonus to Charisma, could you loop that to give you a +6 to Charisma?

For another, probably easier method of grabbing a small bonus to your Charisma, Succubi are listed as possible cohorts (they are ECL 12, though, so...); give her a couple character levels as you yourself level, and she would get the Elite Array for her ability scores; that would bump her up to Charisma 30, officially matching the Lilitu, which can be further buffed with a variety of magic items (give her a Cape of Charisma +4; you can get a +6 bonus out of her with the spell.)

You can also give her nifty little abilities to keep her eyes on you; all in all, it is win-win.

What I bound when I used this as a Killer-Gnome.

The Succubus
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

As you note: Lilitu would be better for certain purposes, namely just getting +2 profane to saves.

The Naga Goddess
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

Using buff spells, and looping EG in between two simulacrum, I was able to get all of their stats up over 106, allowing me to boost all stats by +24, which was the highest I could with my CL at the time.

For the record, I do still intend to come back and write in the entire process I used for this, added into the handbook at some point.

EDIT: Also, note of the notation or explanation was written in handbook form for your benefit, that's how it was presented to the DM. I have an odd writing style.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 12:31:28 PM by ariasderros »
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2013, 09:44:29 PM »
What Amechra meant to say is: Planar Bind two x, and use Extract Gift to give the other a +y Enhancement bonus to a stat up until you ran out of stat points. Then that by giving another y demon a +y+1 to the same stat. Keep up the castings and it goes as high as you want.

Clearly, boosted stats weren't meant to be part of the spell. If your DM makes you pay for things (like normal), 36k for a non-item but dispellable +6 to Strength is the best use of a spell's ability enhancements. Which isn't that great considering it requires someone who knows the spell which puts you behind a magic item with +6 str tacked on for the exact same price.

This spell is really all about the skill bonuses.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2013, 10:07:04 PM »
What Amechra meant to say is: Planar Bind two x, and use Extract Gift to give the other a +y Enhancement bonus to a stat up until you ran out of stat points. Then that by giving another y demon a +y+1 to the same stat. Keep up the castings and it goes as high as you want.

It doesn't get as high as you want. Since each instance grants a smaller boost, you eventually hit a point wherein you don't boost the stat at all. This will always cause the third or fourth casting to grant the maximum bonus.

Say you have a pair of Demons with a Dex of 59. Fist one gifts the second with a +12 (one half the modifier of 59 = 12). This causes a score of 71. You have Demon B gift Demon A back, but this time you grant a +15. This causes Demon A to have a stat of 74. Demon A gifts Demon B again for +16. This causes the stat to now be 75. The modifier for 75 is 32. One half of 32 is 16.

Therefore, if you have a demon with a stat of 59, and no other boosts, then +16 is the maximum that you will be able to loop between them.

Clearly, boosted stats weren't meant to be part of the spell. If your DM makes you pay for things (like normal), 36k for a non-item but dispellable +6 to Strength is the best use of a spell's ability enhancements. Which isn't that great considering it requires someone who knows the spell which puts you behind a magic item with +6 str tacked on for the exact same price.

This spell is really all about the skill bonuses.

The skill bonuses are at the same price as a skill item, just like the ability score boosts are. Also, I give an analysis of this spell vs. items in the handbook.

Either getting it for free, or else stat boosts of greater than +6, are going to be cheaper than an item.
Once you get your CL to 59, it cannot be dispelled. The only exceptions to that are if RoS breaks CL limits completely, or you are going against Epic.
Disjoin takes out either Items or Spells, and thus is a moot issue.
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2013, 07:51:23 PM »
Say you have a pair of Demons with a Dex of 59. Fist one gifts the second with a +12 (one half the modifier of 59 = 12). This causes a score of 71. You have Demon B gift Demon A back, but this time you grant a +15. This causes Demon A to have a stat of 74. Demon A gifts Demon B again for +16. This causes the stat to now be 75. The modifier for 75 is 32. One half of 32 is 16.
So grab another, and have the party bard sing. Either way, as long as you add demons to the loop, you can keep doing this until its NI infinite, assuming you have the CL via greater consumptive field.

Once you get your CL to 59, it cannot be dispelled. The only exceptions to that are if RoS breaks CL limits completely
RoS Races of stone? And what is special about CL59? Redwizard + roll of 20.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2013, 08:14:18 PM »
Say you have a pair of Demons with a Dex of 59. Fist one gifts the second with a +12 (one half the modifier of 59 = 12). This causes a score of 71. You have Demon B gift Demon A back, but this time you grant a +15. This causes Demon A to have a stat of 74. Demon A gifts Demon B again for +16. This causes the stat to now be 75. The modifier for 75 is 32. One half of 32 is 16.
So grab another, and have the party bard sing. Either way, as long as you add demons to the loop, you can keep doing this until its NI infinite, assuming you have the CL via greater consumptive field.
Allow me to re-phrase. There are only so many boosts that you can make to the stat. You will never hit NI without resorting to tricks a' la' pun-pun. And it doesn't matter if you add more demons. If, in that example, you brought in 2 demons, or 900, you still hit a cap, due to the base of 59, plus the enhancement of 16. Now, if you start adding in things like Succubus Possession, Gaunt feat, Moral and Sacred Bonuses, and +2 from the Horseshoes, You can pretty easily get that 59 up to 79, but then you max with a looped score of 101, and thus a bonus conferred of 22.

Adding in more demons doesn't help the "loop", because you are still going to hit a max of 3 or 4 instances before you have the maximum for your resources. If you start adding in more buffs, you essentially just raise the starting figure.

The only exceptions are: Strength, due to Greater Consumptive Field; And Wisdom, Due to Owl's Insight.

It should also be noted that I assume balanced use of GCF, wherein you do not loop that spell on itself anyway.

Once you get your CL to 59, it cannot be dispelled. The only exceptions to that are if RoS breaks CL limits completely
RoS Races of stone? And what is special about CL59? Redwizard + roll of 20.
Reserves of Strength.

Red Wizard can get his CL up real high. Yippe. Hey, Without Reserves of Strength, any Dispel-type spell has a CL cap. Red Wizard doesn't break that. RoS, and only RoS, does. Beyond that, you need bonuses to the dispel check that don't have to do with CL. Examples include: Spellcaster's Bane and Inquisition Domain. Thing is, even if you use the 8th level Dispel that has a CL cap of 25, and use all of the bonuses that stack, you only get up to a 38. If you roll a 20, you dispel anything that has a CL of 58. Thus, unless RoS breaks the CL cap of the spell, a spell with a CL of 59 shouldn't be dispelled.

Note: There might be other boosts that I haven't accounted for, but the point still stands, Dispel-type spells have a CL cap, and you can get your CL to greater heights than it is possible to dispel.
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2013, 08:27:19 PM »
Meh 79 to a stat (usually for free) with the option of making it loop itself is just too broken for me.

The skills-boosting on the other hand is really flavorful, especially if playing an outsider with a vendetta against those on the far side of the alignment aisle.

Offline JaronK

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2013, 08:39:27 PM »
I've been working with this spell for a while, so I've got a few notes.  First, the best demons I found:

Abilities:
(click to show/hide)

Skills:
(click to show/hide)

And as a note on Spellstitching... just Spellstitch a creature with Consumptive Field.  Use that to boost its caster level as high as you need.

Also note that BoVD lets you effectively use Greater Planar Binding with a Knowledge Religion DC 35 check as long as you're willing to sacrifice someone.

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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2013, 05:02:10 PM »
For those kind of perma boosters, of course you are ...  ;)
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Offline JaronK

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2013, 02:18:21 PM »
Yeah, my DM's been running things pretty low wealth (though that does seem to be changing lately) so I kinda needed the boosts.  A suit of Leather Armor on our main tank at level 12 was kind of an issue!

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2013, 07:21:52 PM »
C'mon DM, lemme kill somebody !!
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Offline Pippin

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2015, 05:17:30 PM »
Sorry but I don't get it. I'll necrobump this.
Quote
And as a note on Spellstitching... just Spellstitch a creature with Consumptive Field.  Use that to boost its caster level as high as you need.
1. Consumptive Field can only grant you 50% of your CL, or almost 100% if you use it multiple times (DM's call, I suppose) so how exactly do you reach, say, CL 84 for a +21 bonus to INT?

Regarding the OP:
Quote
Pro: It does not require any particular build to function, thus no character level investment. Only 1,000gp and the Craft Wondrous Item Feat.
2. I'm an idiot: I didn't get why the gp and why the feat?

Also, let's say we can cast Extract Gift for free and have an appropriate CL.
Quote
Ahem, or hire a SCM with access to miracle to shadow-miracle two Simulacrum of these: Ha-Naga (ELH p195); Draconic (RotD p74); Pherenic (XPH p205); Multi-Headed, 29 extra heads (SS p125); Half-Fiend (MM p148); Paragon (ELH p209) with the higher stats form the elite ability score array, and the levels, into Int for a creature with 39 HD and an Int of 60.
Ha-Naga : INT 35 (HD 20)
Draconic : +0 INT (+1 HD)
Pherenic: +2 INT (+2 HD)
Multi-Headed 29 heads: +0 INT (+9 HD)
Half-Fiend: +4 INT (+4 HD)
Paragon: +15 INT (+15 CL)
Levels: +4 INT

Total: 60 INT (36 HD, CL 35)
I missed 3 HDs somewhere?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 03:22:55 PM by Pippin »

Offline Jowgen

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Re: Extract Gift Mini-Handbook - Discussion
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2020, 05:40:04 PM »
Put in here for for the benefit of others who might come across this old handbook/thread:

The Hammer of Lolth, from Expedition to the Demonweb pits, is a Lolth aspect with 14 HD (Chaotic and Evil Subtype outsider, therefore: Demon) with 27 Int and 26 Wis, making it a better choice compared to the Sibriex.

Also, if HD is no object and Demon Lords themselves are valid donors, the ones with the Highest printed stats are:

- Dagon: Str 46 (Dragon 349)
- Pazuzu: Dex 38 (Dragon 329)
- Demogorgon: Con 46 (Dragon 357)
- Graz'zt: Int 38 (Dragon 360)
- Yeenoghu: Wis 30 (FC I) (tied with Azuvidexus, but more mainstream)
- Malcanthet: Cha 44 (Dragon 353)