Author Topic: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion  (Read 13472 times)

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« on: November 07, 2011, 10:04:08 AM »
This feels weird; we're errata'ing a splat that has been called "Errata that you pay for".

Complete Psionic has the dubious honor of being the most commonly hated supplement to ever see mainstream print, thanks in no small part to the numerous errors and contradictions it contained and for nerfing a source that was well-loved by many players. It is, quite possibly, as hated as the original errata for the Book of Nine Swords, but unlike that problem, this book was completely intentional.

Our task is simple: Sift through the 157 pages and find every single piece of RAW that needs to be fixed up, starting with Chapter 1.

Anarchic Initiate
(click to show/hide)

Ebon Saint
(click to show/hide)

Ectopic Adept
(click to show/hide)

Flayerspawn Psychic
(click to show/hide)

Illumine Soul
(click to show/hide)

Soulbow
(click to show/hide)

Storm Disciple
(click to show/hide)

Zerth Cenobite
(click to show/hide)
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Offline Prime32

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2011, 10:47:44 AM »
I don't suppose we can add:
Quote
Delete the following feats: Dire Flail Mind Blade, Dwarven Urgrosh Mind Blade, Orc Double Axe Mind Blade, Two-Bladed Mind Blade.
Add the following feat:

Exotic Mind Blade [Psionic]
When you reshape your mind blade, you can change it into an exotic weapon.
Prerequisite: Ability to generate a mind blade, shape mind blade class feature.
Benefit: Select one exotic weapon when you gain this feat. Any time you wish to reshape your mind blade using your shape mind blade class feature, you can shape it into the chosen weapon. If the chosen weapon is a double weapon, determine its enchantments as if you had split your mind blade into two weapons. You are treated as if you possessed the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat for the chosen weapon. The weapon is sized appropriately for you and deals damage as a normal weapon of its kind.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 10:58:15 AM by Prime32 »

Offline veekie

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2011, 12:23:29 PM »
RE: Anarchic Initiate
Possibly make the miss chance overlap with concealment?
Theres a number of things that might penetrate concealment, but not the Entropic Shield type miss chance we're looking at here.

Ectopic Adept would take an un-nerfing of the AC first, not sure where to start really, since most of the forms are actually worse than even the nerfed AC.
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Offline Prime32

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2011, 12:24:50 PM »
Ectopic Adept would take an un-nerfing of the AC first, not sure where to start really, since most of the forms are actually worse than even the nerfed AC.
Where does it say that you lose your menu options when you apply Ectopic Form? ???

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2011, 01:00:23 AM »
Can't say I know CPsi's problems as well as the ToBs or even have enough knowledge to formulate an opinion.

However, Ability Burn sticks out to me. Instead of stating it cannot be healed by X or Y posing comments such as use Z, it should have stated it can only be healed by X or Y. Example; resting for 8 hours can heal ability burn as if it were ability damage. or w/e.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2011, 01:38:08 AM »
The problem with Soulbow is that Mind Arrow says its enhancement bonus applies to your Soulknife Base Attack Bonus. That should probably be that it applies to your Mind Blade, instead (stacking with your existing Mind Blade enhancement bonus).

Offline Bard

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2011, 08:28:38 PM »
The problem with Soulbow is that Mind Arrow says its enhancement bonus applies to your Soulknife Base Attack Bonus. That should probably be that it applies to your Mind Blade, instead (stacking with your existing Mind Blade enhancement bonus).
I admit it's strange and almost one of a kind class feature, but it doesn't seem to be reason enough to me to suspect it's a typo. It basically makes the Soulbow a 10/10 bab class, like the Soulknife... it makes sense to me.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2011, 09:31:58 PM »
Soulknife is only 3/4 (+15 at 20th), and the Soubow's enhancement bonus only gives +2 anyways (for +9 over 10 levels if it applies to BaB).

If it made a big thing about applying to bonus to actual BaB, I'm be agreeing with you 100%, Bard. However, it's hidden deep inside a paragraph about granting an enhancement bonus to your Mind Arrows. It really seems unintentional if only from the context.

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2011, 10:41:51 PM »
It really seems unintentional if only from the context.

Agreed. The book itself is notorious for bad editing, so an oversight like this one is fully possible.

Does anyone else get the feeling CP was a rushed job?
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2011, 10:43:23 PM »
It really seems unintentional if only from the context.

Agreed. The book itself is notorious for bad editing, so an oversight like this one is fully possible.

Does anyone else get the feeling CP was a rushed job done over night?
Yes.
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2011, 10:33:10 AM »
That said, flavor-wise that fits right in.  Why shouldn't the Soulknife/Soulbow be better with their mind blade/arrows than they are with any other weapon?  It's literally an extension of their will.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2011, 01:37:55 PM »
For reference, the Soulbow was released in a preview. Here is the relevant text:

Quote from: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2
Mind Arrow (Su): As a free action, you can create a semisolid arrow composed of psychic energy distilled from your mind. If your base attack bonus is high enough to grant you multiple attacks, you can create multiple mind arrows as part of an attack. You must have one hand free to create and project a mind arrow.

The bolt is identical in all ways (except visually) to an arrow shot from a composite longbow. For instance, a Medium soulbow materializes an arrow that speeds toward the specified target, and if it hits, deals 1d8 points of damage (crit x3) plus extra damage equal to the soulbow's Wisdom modifier. Soulbows who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind arrows identical to arrows shot from composite longbows appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the arrow's damage (see Table 7-4 and Table 7-5 in the Player's Handbook). You gain the usual benefit to your attack roll from a high Dexterity bonus.

Whether a mind arrow hits or misses, it dissipates 1 round after being shot. A mind arrow is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

A mind arrow can be charged with a psychic strike as if it were a mind blade. If a soulbow has enough soulknife levels to have the knife to the soul ability, that ability also applies to her mind arrows.

You can use feats such as Point Blank Shot or Precise Shot in conjunction with a mind arrow (see bonus feats provided by the class for further guidance). You can also choose mind arrow for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade. Any feats previously requiring specific weapon choice (such as Weapon Specialization) for your mind blade also apply to your mind arrow, if applicable.

Your mind arrows improve as you gain higher levels. At 3rd level, a mind arrow gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, and at 7th level the bonus improves to +2. These enhancement bonuses stack with previous enhancement bonuses gained earlier for your soulknife class levels. Likewise, these enhancement bonuses also improve your soulknife base attack bonus. If your return to your soulknife class progression, these mind arrow enhancement bonuses on attack and damage are cumulative bonuses on top of any new enhancement bonuses gained, and they benefit both your mind blade and mind arrows.

Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), you can attempt to attack foes with mind arrows by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save, you can freely produce mind arrows for a number of rounds equal to your class level before you need to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, you must wait 1 round before trying again while you remain within the psionics-negating effect.

Specifically:
Quote from: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2
Your mind arrows improve as you gain higher levels. At 3rd level, a mind arrow gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, and at 7th level the bonus improves to +2. These enhancement bonuses stack with previous enhancement bonuses gained earlier for your soulknife class levels. Likewise, these enhancement bonuses also improve your soulknife base attack bonus. If your return to your soulknife class progression, these mind arrow enhancement bonuses on attack and damage are cumulative bonuses on top of any new enhancement bonuses gained, and they benefit both your mind blade and mind arrows.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2011, 02:50:41 PM »
A.I. is better than most of the base classes, making it near mandatory. Wilder doesn't qualify 'til very late.

Ebon Saint suffers from 3/5 festing / qualifying , no Dire interaction , general weirdness (I thought I'd never say that).

Ectopic Adept is a corner case to the AC nerf, and then strangely weak.

Flayerspawn Psychic ... yeah some of the flavor is stupid. (su) Mind Blast edit just needs a few words struck. Same with the similar specific Illithid heritage feat.

Soulbow BAB thing was ignored, and even using it is only mildly interesting.
Illumine Soul + Soulbow need a Soulknife fix more.

Storm Disciple level 3 ability is borkt, like gamebreaking good. Level 5 is near useless and late.  Seems designed for Divine Mind, but with almost no interaction, like the Auras.

Zerth Cenobite is a job for Super-Monk-Man.
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The overall Casting Levels problem, is all over the place in CPsi.
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Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2011, 11:21:41 PM »
Updated the errata up to the Ectopic Adept (most of the actual errata for that class will be a part of the errata for the Ectopic Form feats and the Astral Construct changes). I'd like to take a moment to discuss the Flayerspawn Psychic PrC's errata. More specifically, I'd like to debate what changes we should make to the actual abilities (so we can come to an agreement on the whole class).

Secondly, flavor is normally outside of the errata's domain. That usually falls within the area of Retconning the material. I'm still going to include at least a sidebar on changing the flavor of the class, but there are just so many options for doing so. Flavor's mutability should not fly in the face of canon after all, at least not without the DM's permission.

I've got a few ideas regarding the second part, but would like to get both feedback and ideas for the actual footnote. What can you guys come up with?
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Offline Prime32

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2011, 07:08:00 AM »
Maybe say that the fluff in the book is rumors by the ill-informed, and that the true source of Flayerspawn Psychics is unclear.

IIRC there were two previous explanations for Illithid Bloodlines:
  • Illithids experimented on you or one of your ancestors, which included grafts of illithid tissue.
  • You are one of the ancestors of the illithid race (since they're from the future).
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 07:14:17 AM by Prime32 »

Offline Lycanthromancer

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2011, 02:02:10 AM »
We can't forget the erudite errata! Right now most people can't decide if the unique powers per day are for all the powers you can use per day period, the powers you can use per power level (which is what I think is the case, RAW), the powers you can use per character level, or the powers you can use per class level.

WotC needs to learn how to use a thesaurus, as well as an editor.

I vote that there needs to be more UPPD early on, but tightly restricted later (rather than having thousands of potential powers per day). And how does it interact with Linked Power?

And speaking of, I think a rewording of Linked Power is in order. I know how it works now, but there needs to be a few clarifications as to whether you pay XP costs, and so on. And I'd take out the targeting issues. You should be able to target them separately regardless. If one's a buff and one's an offensive power, you (usually) don't want to hit the same target with both of them.

[edit] Oh, and since divine mind is fricktarded useless, could we reintegrate it with the ardent, or would that be too big of a change?

And do levels in anarchic initiate count as levels of wilder for psychic enervation? It sucks, but as it stands, psion/AIs are MUCH better than wilder/AIs for this reason. And yet doing this would make wilder/AIs suck even MORE.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 02:12:45 AM by Lycanthromancer »

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2011, 02:20:47 AM »
With regards to the UPD changes, the most we can do is nerf it to the 11/day instead of the 11/level/day. It falls in with the Epic Erudite description, which is the closest we have to intent.

Linked Power is getting a nerf or two. Dunno exactly what nerfs will be applied, but I know what to nerf about it.

Divine Mind has gotten all the help this project can give it. Anything more and we delve too far into the house rule territory to call this errata.

I all ready put the AI errata up (they do stack, which does suck).
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Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2011, 01:14:14 AM »
All right, everything up through Storm Disciple has been errata. Need to work on the Zerth Cenobite.

The fluff "errata" for Flayerspawn Psychic will be included in the PDF version. I've left it out of the web version to save space.
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Offline Lycanthromancer

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2011, 01:18:11 AM »
With regards to the UPD changes, the most we can do is nerf it to the 11/day instead of the 11/level/day. It falls in with the Epic Erudite description, which is the closest we have to intent.
Hmm. And suddenly erudite goes from "uber awesome" to "seriously sucks," and it makes PrCing completely nonviable.

How can one small change in wording make such a vast difference in a given class?

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Complete Psionic Errata Discussion
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2011, 01:33:04 AM »
With regards to the UPD changes, the most we can do is nerf it to the 11/day instead of the 11/level/day. It falls in with the Epic Erudite description, which is the closest we have to intent.
Hmm. And suddenly erudite goes from "uber awesome" to "seriously sucks," and it makes PrCing completely nonviable.

How can one small change in wording make such a vast difference in a given class?

Keep in mind that the class was designed with 3.0 Psionics in mind (it was cut for space issues). The Epic progression was added in CP, and didn't reference the original intent of the Erudite. The Lurk's list alone is 78 powers, so there's bound to be enough for all 99 UPD in just the XPH. The real problem is that UPDs are floating. The Erudite is truly spontaneous.

The best fix would be to limit his UPDs to once/power, thus he literally has to use 99 different powers instead of just picking a small group of them to spam all day.
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