Author Topic: Poke-Center (OOC Discussion)  (Read 117758 times)

Offline Anomander

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #240 on: May 09, 2012, 03:31:55 PM »
Quote
About that
-Pha is harpooned and trying to move up with good maneuverability. Each of those half your movement speed, combined you'll not be rising more than 15 feet, barely enough to reach the upper deck edge and only get the commander and two pirates in reach of Never Outnumbered.
-Not only that, the commander is large and has a glaive. That's 20 feet reach, which means you're threatened in melee right now.  Want to risk the aoo?
Luckily, taking a 5ft step in any direction is never hampered unless there is difficult terrain or darkness.
Pha can demoralize within 10ft reach since she has a reach weapon. She has a height of her own and threatens squares above her occupied space. Since the ship is 10ft high, she is threatening the big dude right now without even moving.

Quote
Unless the front of the pirate ship is completely flat, there's a curve to it. He'd need to have reached around that curve to harpoon her
Yeah, I already brought it up. Turns out they make illogical ships that are somehow able to navigate and transform strategical moves into irrelevant ones.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #241 on: May 09, 2012, 03:50:54 PM »
Unless the front of the pirate ship is completely flat, there's a curve to it. He'd need to have reached around that curve to harpoon her, and didn't he switch to the harpoon to spear her? He'd need to draw his glaive to skewer her unless he's got the right feat / equipment to do that. So if that's the case, him drawing his weapon either means he provokes an attack of opportunity, or is unable to reach her with the glaive by the time she pops the Never Outnumbered.

Just saying :)
Yes, he has quick draw to quickly switch weapons around. Also drawing weapons doesn't provoke attacks of oportunity.

Luckily, taking a 5ft step in any direction is never hampered unless there is difficult terrain or darkness.
Pha can demoralize within 10ft reach since she has a reach weapon. She has a height of her own and threatens squares above her occupied space. Since the ship is 10ft high, she is threatening the big dude right now without even moving.
Demoralizing still needs line of sight. If you take a 5-feet step up,  only the commander can still see you besides the pirates that fell in the water. You keep your actions?

Also note, Never Outnumbered  isn't affected by your reach, it's a flat 10 range.

Quote
Unless the front of the pirate ship is completely flat, there's a curve to it. He'd need to have reached around that curve to harpoon her
Yeah, I already brought it up. Turns out they make illogical ships that are somehow able to navigate and transform strategical moves into irrelevant ones.
Says the ice fairy that can lockdown pretty much anything just by glaring at them and stoped a warship with a 50gp trinket. :p

Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #242 on: May 09, 2012, 04:26:05 PM »
Says the ice fairy that can lockdown pretty much anything just by glaring at them and stoped a warship with a 50gp trinket. :p

Ahem, that was MY trinket thank you very much. Pirates always know how to shut down other pirates :)

It's more pirate'y that way.


Yes, he has quick draw to quickly switch weapons around. Also drawing weapons doesn't provoke attacks of oportunity.

You know it's funny, I always thought it did. Turns out it doesn't. Odd. Considering everything else that DOES provoke an Attack of Opportunity, you'd think that taking your attention off the battle to put back a weapon and draw a new one would be top of the list.

Hell we used to actually DROP our current weapon and draw a new one sometimes because our DM was a jerk.
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Offline Anomander

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #243 on: May 09, 2012, 05:27:34 PM »
Quote
Hell we used to actually DROP our current weapon and draw a new one sometimes because our DM was a jerk.
I did that too once in an arena to save in actions. I got better and am now attaching my weapons to my shoulders with chains.
That orc guy thing however didn't need quickdraw. He can hold his 2-h weapon with one hand to draw his harpoon and throw it with one hand, drawing his harpoon as part of movement as a free.
The weird angle of the attack however might well grant Pha a +4 cover bonus to AC but with these ship designs anything goes. :P

Considering taking a 5ft up and raising her arm to demoralize them with a finger of honour for all of them to see might not work, I might elect to go higher with a tumble check.
I am otherwise wondering if Kong will come to pick her up and get her away from there, in which case she has a surprise for them.
If he isn't, she also has a surprise for them.

Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #244 on: May 09, 2012, 05:33:21 PM »
... surprise ...

Surprises are great. Trick to them is, they only really work once. Unless it's a helluva surprise, in which case there aren't any survivors :)
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Offline Anomander

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #245 on: May 09, 2012, 06:05:10 PM »
It will only have to be done once.

Edit: Actually, I just tested the dimensions 3dimensionally and all the pirates in front are able to see her if she ascend 5ft. She will have cover but she will be in their line of sight.

If you plan to take Pha out of that mess with Kong I suggest two move actions for a total of 110ft movement. Just fly to the square behind Pha and move away. I'll grip you and come along.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 11:05:09 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #246 on: May 10, 2012, 01:37:48 PM »
Since there seems to be some confusion, here's an updated map of the ship with a "side view".

(click to show/hide)

Offline Anomander

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #247 on: May 10, 2012, 01:59:36 PM »
Its 15ft high instead of 10ft now? That position grants cover to Pha against that harpoon. Did you grant her the +4 to AC, just to be sure.
I appreciate the efforts for the map, still.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 02:06:06 PM by Anomander »

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #248 on: May 10, 2012, 02:11:10 PM »
That sees to support the assessment of Ano that Pha would get cover, as none of the cubes that biggie occupies can draw all of its "corner point lines" to all of the "corner points" of Pha's space. (least obstructed would be the point to points of the upper part of M6, which both of the bottom and top corners of the cube that border M7 have their lines obstructed by the ships edge.)

As far as the intimidation, with a 5ft adjustment strait up, Pha has LoS and is within range of the Biggie; Sea Pirate at L7, due to how diagonals are measured, is still 5ft away, all others are further yet.

For LoS or LoE, you only need to be able to draw an unobstructed line from one of your space's corners to the one of theirs that corresponds to the one of yours that you started from, but if you cannot draw all of the lines, then you have either cover or concealment, as appropriate.

Its 15ft high instead of 10ft now? That position grants cover to Pha against that harpoon. Did you grant her the +4 to AC, just to be sure.
I appreciate the efforts for the map, still.
The ship's deck is roughly 10 feet high from water level (upper decks in front nad back have an extra 5 feet). And all ship designs in this universe have less than 5-feet inclinations between their upper and lower parts  thanks to revolutionary naval designs, extremely complicated to explain, and  that also make drawing 2d depictions of battles that much easier.

15ft is what it always was.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #249 on: May 10, 2012, 02:47:59 PM »
Thanks for that.

Also, to check if your target has cover, you only need to pick a single corner from your occupied squares.

"To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC)."


 You don't need all the corners to obey that rule. Any of the left corners of the commander are good enough.

Updated map with the lines and an hypothetic situation
(click to show/hide)

As you can see, if the lines simply grazes over an obstacle but doesn't actualy go trough it, it's not enough to get cover. Otherwise you would get cover just by standing in a 5-feet passage against an enemy in front of you, or by having buddies behind you.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 02:49:52 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #250 on: May 10, 2012, 02:56:01 PM »
Point the first: The hypothetical situation does not apply, as the conditions for it and the conditions of the actual calculation don't even begin to line up.

Point the second: Your lines of "Determining cover" should start from the base of the 'figure', not 'anywhere on the figure', otherwise I could draw lines of Cover Check from a dragon's head to loom over cover that lunchmeats... I mean... adventurers should rightfully have.

Point the third: How much of the boat exists under the water?

Point the fourth: Rather then argue the point to ad nauseum as to how far what is from what, let's take it to point that the situation may not have been detailed sufficiently (Flat boats, height to boss), and continue with what we're doing. Ultimately, either this is an unwinnable fight and we're being allowed to roll dice for the DM's amusement, OR us losing isn't a plot point, and we'll pull through. Except for all the folks who are about to die.
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #251 on: May 10, 2012, 03:26:24 PM »
Point the second: Your lines of "Determining cover" should start from the base of the 'figure', not 'anywhere on the figure', otherwise I could draw lines of Cover Check from a dragon's head to loom over cover that lunchmeats... I mean... adventurers should rightfully have.
Changes nothing. But yeah, actually, you can select a "corner" of a square that you occupy, even if that corner is in the middle of your space as a big/tall creature.

Quote
Ultimately, either this is an unwinnable fight and we're being allowed to roll dice for the DM's amusement, OR us losing isn't a plot point, and we'll pull through. Except for all the folks who are about to die.

This frightens me very much as to the types of games you are used to playing. DM throws stuff at us, either we can cope, or we can't. I've never been a fan of fugged dice, gandalf-saves (elminster, as appropriate), or otherwise "you can't all die here, plot says you win in three rounds... oh fine, cut-scene".

I don't build my characters just to have the privilege of controlling one of the DM's NPCs. Unless I'm the DM, anyway.

Of course, building my current character while half-asleep was apparently a bad idea too. Some VERY glaring problems.
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Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #252 on: May 10, 2012, 03:30:31 PM »
Point the second: Your lines of "Determining cover" should start from the base of the 'figure', not 'anywhere on the figure', otherwise I could draw lines of Cover Check from a dragon's head to loom over cover that lunchmeats... I mean... adventurers should rightfully have.
Changes nothing. But yeah, actually, you can select a "corner" of a square that you occupy, even if that corner is in the middle of your space as a big/tall creature.

Really, cause that means that, for the most part, cover is impossible to acquire reliably.

Quote
Quote
Ultimately, either this is an unwinnable fight and we're being allowed to roll dice for the DM's amusement, OR us losing isn't a plot point, and we'll pull through. Except for all the folks who are about to die.

This frightens me very much as to the types of games you are used to playing. DM throws stuff at us, either we can cope, or we can't. I've never been a fan of fugged dice, gandalf-saves (elminster, as appropriate), or otherwise "you can't all die here, plot says you win in three rounds... oh fine, cut-scene".

I don't build my characters just to have the privilege of controlling one of the DM's NPCs. Unless I'm the DM, anyway.

Of course, building my current character while half-asleep was apparently a bad idea too. Some VERY glaring problems.

I've been in some terrible games, where the GM's idea of building a suspenseful game was throwing an endless supply of orcs and goblins at us until we 'came to the realization' that we were supposed to evacuate the town the campaign started in. I didn't mean "Plot says you win" scenarios, but rather "Plot says you aren't supposed to win here" scenarios. By the time the players often figure that out, two are dead, two are at one hit point or so, and the remaining have to fend off stuff until the two dead party members make new characters. :)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 03:34:29 PM by Sneaky_Sable »
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Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #253 on: May 10, 2012, 03:33:12 PM »
Changes nothing. But yeah, actually, you can select a "corner" of a square that you occupy, even if that corner is in the middle of your space as a big/tall creature.

Mind if I ask where you came along with that ruling? Or is this one of those Rules as Written vs. Rules as Intended deals where suddenly "Choose a Corner of your Square" suddenly means "Choose a corner of the myriad of cubes you occupy"?
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #254 on: May 10, 2012, 03:41:18 PM »
Point the second: Your lines of "Determining cover" should start from the base of the 'figure', not 'anywhere on the figure', otherwise I could draw lines of Cover Check from a dragon's head to loom over cover that lunchmeats... I mean... adventurers should rightfully have.
Changes nothing. But yeah, actually, you can select a "corner" of a square that you occupy, even if that corner is in the middle of your space as a big/tall creature.

Really, cause that means that, for the most part, cover is impossible to acquire reliably.
Indeed it is hard to acquire cover reliably. But look on the other side of the issue. Cover blocks aoos flat-out, so if it's easy to acquire, you're kinda kicking melees in the balls even more than normal.

I've been in some terrible games, where the GM's idea of building a suspenseful game was throwing an endless supply of orcs and goblins at us until we 'came to the realization' that we were supposed to evacuate the town the campaign started in. I didn't mean "Plot says you win" scenarios, but rather "Plot says you aren't supposed to win here" scenarios. By the time the players often figure that out, two are dead, two are at one hit point or so, and the remaining have to fend off stuff until the two dead party members make new characters. :)

Hey, you've sucessfull repelled the first wave, prevented the sneak attack from behind by telling the captain to deploy some guards and militia in the rear (not that your characters could know that there's a bunch of dead pirates behind you right now :p), and also stranded the pirate boat that I had planned to enter crashing in the docks.

Also it's not like I'm preventing Pha from doing anything. She can still simply blast the commander in the face and then let Kong pull her back.

Mind if I ask where you came along with that ruling? Or is this one of those Rules as Written vs. Rules as Intended deals where suddenly "Choose a Corner of your Square" suddenly means "Choose a corner of the myriad of cubes you occupy"?
I believe the key word is "a square you occupy", instead of "your square".
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 03:45:28 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #255 on: May 10, 2012, 03:44:52 PM »
Indeed it is hard to acquire cover reliably. But look on the other side of the issue. Cover blocks aoos flat-out, so if it's easy to acquire, you're kinda kicking melees in the balls even more than normal.

That's kinda probably why our Great Fairy is looking for some now, otherwise she's going to become two Half-Great Fairy creatures. :)

And AOO's aren't the be all end all, cover does a lot more then that. You know what else stops AOO's cold? Well, I'm not telling you. Read a book! :)

Quote
Hey, you've sucessfull repelled the first wave, prevented the sneak attack from behind by telling the captain to deploy some guards and militia in the rear (not that your characters could know that there's a bunch of dead pirates behind you right now :p), and also stranded the pirate boat that I had planned to enter crashing in the docks.

Oh trust me, I'm in no way shape or form comparing this game to those d20 War Crimes that I played in before. Tarrasques as the prelude, dungeons made from Living Walls, and those are the ones my brain WANTS to recall.

And hooray for watching the flank. ;)
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #256 on: May 10, 2012, 03:52:54 PM »
Quote from: SRD
Big Creatures and Cover
Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.
Cover

And, yeah Sneaky, so far I'd say the people here in the pbp are a lot better than who I usually end up playing with myself, in so, so many ways. It feels like I'm a kid again with good friends, rather than a mixed bag of munchkins and people who need to be told how to do their attack rolls every time (in the same party).

And I've been the victim of a DM who did that kind of nothing-works-to-solve-stuff-but-what-I-meant-for-you-to-do crap before too.
(click to show/hide)

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« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 04:00:50 PM by ariasderros »
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Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #257 on: May 10, 2012, 03:57:03 PM »
Quote from: SRD
Big Creatures and Cover
Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.
Cover

You know, funny thing but that still says "Square". Choosing areas above the base, were they figurines, would imply Cubes instead.

Picking areas in the middle of the air seems to make something hard enough to acquire (Cover) now even harder if not impossible.

Rules as Written: Draw a line from the base of this model to the base of the target. Check for cover as such.
Rules as being Interpreted: Draw a line from any part of this creature to any part of the target. Check for cover as such.

EDIT:

A larger then normal creature has a base that is more then 1 square in size. Ergo, you would need to choose one of the squares its larger-then-normal base occupies in order to check for cover. Large creatures occupy 4 squares, while Colossal creatures can occupy about, oh I don't know... 32? 64?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 03:59:24 PM by Sneaky_Sable »
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Offline Anomander

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #258 on: May 10, 2012, 04:04:12 PM »
Big convo while I'm gone o_O

Quote
As you can see, if the lines simply grazes over an obstacle but doesn't actualy go trough it,
Through a square or border that blocks...
The grazing is what they mean by passing through a border. If you look at the support pictures of how cover works they show an example of two medium sized characters fighting in melee on each side of a corner, and cover applies to both because of the grazing.
(click to show/hide)
I made the model to show that she is in LoS of 3 pirates without moving, 4 pirates is she 5ft up and still 4 pirates if she 5ft up-right. (mostly due to the curvy edge of the ship)
Not that meaningful considering only the big one is within 10ft for the demoralization but she maintains cover even if she moves 10ft up, at which point they all enter her 10ft range, but at least it demonstrates that she can blast them all with a cone effect since she has LoS and LoE, though they would also gain cover from it.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 04:06:10 PM by Anomander »

Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #259 on: May 10, 2012, 04:06:17 PM »
Totally out of left field, what program did you use to make the scene? Poser? Daz? Sketch'up?
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