Author Topic: Poke-Center (OOC Discussion)  (Read 117755 times)

Offline Anomander

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #260 on: May 10, 2012, 04:08:46 PM »
3ds max 12.

But yeah, she can blast hem and have the ape retrieve her, but I'd like to know if he is coming to the rescue or not before risking blasting and staying in range for a major retribution. So, delaying until then.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #261 on: May 10, 2012, 04:14:12 PM »
You know, funny thing but that still says "Square". Choosing areas above the base, were they figurines, would imply Cubes instead.

Picking areas in the middle of the air seems to make something hard enough to acquire (Cover) now even harder if not impossible.

Rules as Written: Draw a line from the base of this model to the base of the target. Check for cover as such.
Rules as being Interpreted: Draw a line from any part of this creature to any part of the target. Check for cover as such.

Let me ask you this:
If you are a small creature, standing at the bottom of a (strait) staircase with a crossbow, and there is a medium creature at the top of the stairs, do you think either you or it should get cover, just because the field isn't perfectly 2D?

If you are the same small creature with a crossbow, now on a ledge, overlooking a dragons horde, and the dragon wakes up and stands up, so that you can see its whole head, which is the size of an ogre (dragon here is great red wyrm), do you really think it gets cover just because you can't see its feet?

You are the dragon, looking at this little S**T in your home, waking you up, and you unleash a torrent of flame, backed by Crimson Oblivion, do you think little S** should get a cover bonus to its saves just because you wouldn't be able to hit it strait on if you put your head next to your feet?

Also: flying creature has cover when its over your head, because you block your own base.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #262 on: May 10, 2012, 04:17:26 PM »
3ds max 12.

But yeah, she can blast hem and have the ape retrieve her, but I'd like to know if he is coming to the rescue or not before risking blasting and staying in range for a major retribution. So, delaying until then.

OMG I HATE INSTALLING THAT PROGRAM!!

Sorry, I've just had to do it a billion times at work and every freaking time I have to e-mail our contact at the company to get an activation code.

Corry on..... :blush

Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #263 on: May 10, 2012, 04:24:42 PM »
You know, funny thing but that still says "Square". Choosing areas above the base, were they figurines, would imply Cubes instead.

Picking areas in the middle of the air seems to make something hard enough to acquire (Cover) now even harder if not impossible.

Rules as Written: Draw a line from the base of this model to the base of the target. Check for cover as such.
Rules as being Interpreted: Draw a line from any part of this creature to any part of the target. Check for cover as such.

Let me ask you this:
If you are a small creature, standing at the bottom of a (strait) staircase with a crossbow, and there is a medium creature at the top of the stairs, do you think either you or it should get cover, just because the field isn't perfectly 2D?

If you are the same small creature with a crossbow, now on a ledge, overlooking a dragons horde, and the dragon wakes up and stands up, so that you can see its whole head, which is the size of an ogre (dragon here is great red wyrm), do you really think it gets cover just because you can't see its feet?

You are the dragon, looking at this little S**T in your home, waking you up, and you unleash a torrent of flame, backed by Crimson Oblivion, do you think little S** should get a cover bonus to its saves just because you wouldn't be able to hit it strait on if you put your head next to your feet?

Also: flying creature has cover when its over your head, because you block your own base.

Let me propose this:

Indiana Jones and his Evil Twin are facing off against each other. They are ten feet apart and armed with whips. Between them is a wall three feet high that extends from Raiders of the Lost Ark to The Last Crusade.

According to the book, they each have partial cover.

According to you, since they can draw an unobstructed line from their chests to each other, neither one of them has cover against the other.

Is this an accurate representation between the rules in the book and the rules how they are being interpreted?



Oh, and so you don't feel left out:

A creature at the bottom of the staircase looking up at a creature at the top of the staircase: Neither creature has cover, as there is no basis for cover. This is a somewhat insulting example. However, the creature at the top of the staircase can claim higher ground. If the creature at the base of the staircase were small enough to press themselves against the rise of the staircase, though, they would absolutely gain cover.

Dragon scenario: This scenario does not provide the small creature with cover either, though depending on the situation the dragon may be able to claim at least partial (10%) cover.

I'm the dragon: First off, he'd be dead before he ever got to that ledge, second why is there even that ledge in my home. Third, whoever the Crimson Oblivion is, I don't need his approval to strike out against my enemies. As for cover, depending on where my majestic maw is before I unleash the Sun, he may or may not gain cover from the angle of the stone, or if he can scramble to a rock in time.

See, it's things like these we call Role playing. See, it works like this.

There's a Halfling. I'm a Great Wyrm Red Dragon. My breath weapon is a cone with an edge wider then your movement. According to everything you've written here, I would fully expect you to deny the halfling a Reflex save based firmly on the basis that there's literally nowhere for the little man booger to go to. Thirty feet to the left? Toast. Thirty to the right? Double toast. Thirty forward? Megatoast. Thirty back? Halfling Rotisserie.

And flying creatures don't block their own line of sight down because they know what they look like, so they ignore themselves. That, and you don't count you for the purposes of blocking your own line of sight unless you're taking an action to avoid the gaze of something.
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Offline Anomander

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #264 on: May 10, 2012, 04:29:47 PM »
Quote
Let me ask you this:
If you are a small creature, standing at the bottom of a (strait) staircase with a crossbow, and there is a medium creature at the top of the stairs, do you think either you or it should get cover, just because the field isn't perfectly 2D?
No, because each of them can line one of their corners toward every corner of their opponent. The medium one gets high ground advantage, however.

Quote
If you are the same small creature with a crossbow, now on a ledge, overlooking a dragons horde, and the dragon wakes up and stands up, so that you can see its whole head, which is the size of an ogre (dragon here is great red wyrm), do you really think it gets cover just because you can't see its feet?
No, because the rules for creature bigger than medium states that you can choose any square of its space to determine if it has cover against you.

Quote
You are the dragon, looking at this little S**T in your home, waking you up, and you unleash a torrent of flame, backed by Crimson Oblivion, do you think little S** should get a cover bonus to its saves just because you wouldn't be able to hit it strait on if you put your head next to your feet?
Depends on the angle. If the dragon's head is at least partially over the ledge, the small dude has no cover. If none of the squares of the dragon's space can line with all the small creature's corners on the ledge, he has cover.

Quote
Also: flying creature has cover when its over your head, because you block your own base.
/sarcasm
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 04:33:20 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #265 on: May 10, 2012, 04:51:52 PM »
Big convo while I'm gone o_O

Quote
As you can see, if the lines simply grazes over an obstacle but doesn't actualy go trough it,
Through a square or border that blocks...
The grazing is what they mean by passing through a border. If you look at the support pictures of how cover works they show an example of two medium sized characters fighting in melee on each side of a corner, and cover applies to both because of the grazing.
Almost. There's slightly diferent rules for melee and ranged cover, but the melee ones only apply against adjacent oponents:

To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.



So while ranged(and reach) attackers get to pick a corner of their choice when checking for cover in their target, melee attackers must satisfy all corners. The DMG picture itself has the line go trough the wall, not graze it:
(click to show/hide)

And again, if grazing was enough to get cover, then you would gain cover simply from having another creature at your side instead of between you and your oponent. Or in a straight 5-feet tunnel. Reach weapons Aoo builds would be virtually useless because two or more enemies standing togheter grant each cover regardless of which direction you attack them. Heck, an ally aproaches to attack the enemy from another direction, they would grant the enemy cover!

(click to show/hide)
I made the model to show that she is in LoS of 3 pirates without moving, 4 pirates is she 5ft up and still 4 pirates if she 5ft up-right. (mostly due to the curvy edge of the ship)
Not that meaningful considering only the big one is within 10ft for the demoralization but she maintains cover even if she moves 10ft up, at which point they all enter her 10ft range, but at least it demonstrates that she can blast them all with a cone effect since she has LoS and LoE, though they would also gain cover from it.
Hmm, fair enough there. Nice pictures!
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 05:09:31 PM by oslecamo »

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #266 on: May 10, 2012, 05:01:02 PM »
(click to show/hide)

@Ano: Great graphing.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 05:06:37 PM by ariasderros »
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Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #267 on: May 10, 2012, 05:05:41 PM »
I found the sarcasm, but opted to treat it as Words as Intended, rather then Words as Written :)

I think we have all the bases covered, so we can table this discussion for now. I'm still curious about the scenario you left out, concerning the halfling in the field with the Red dragon.

EDIT: And really? Throwing homebrew into an example? Does he pay you to advertise? ;)
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #268 on: May 10, 2012, 05:12:55 PM »
I found the sarcasm, but opted to treat it as Words as Intended, rather then Words as Written :)

I think we have all the bases covered, so we can table this discussion for now. I'm still curious about the scenario you left out, concerning the halfling in the field with the Red dragon.

EDIT: And really? Throwing homebrew into an example? Does he pay you to advertise? ;)

I had missed the question in there about expecting me to do something, since it wasn't phrased as such.
No, it's still a reflex for half. You curl up (minimizing surface are exposed) just in time, dance through it just right (anime examples of finding a weak point in a spread of energy type attack abound), or some other granted roll-played reasoning for the crunch, but you do get your save unless otherwise stated.

And when you're that good, you don't need to advertise.
I've been reading a lot of his stuff for the last few weeks to learn where all I went wrong with certain things with every-single-time I have tried to homebrew.

Osle and Sir P. are great examples of how to do it right, so I've been studying whenever I'm to tired to actually work on any of the stuff I should be.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 05:15:53 PM by ariasderros »
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Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #269 on: May 10, 2012, 05:14:17 PM »
Interesting. Okay, are we done here?
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #270 on: May 10, 2012, 05:19:06 PM »
Interesting. Okay, are we done here?
:shrug
I don't know, you haven't admitted I'm right yet.  :smirk

Edit: @ the below, the only gratifications I need in life aren't acquirable by rules-lawyering a game. I come here as escapism, not fulfillment of the Ego.

Also: Isn't there some Brony thing about things being cut in half and fun being doubled?
That's kinda probably why our Great Fairy is looking for some now, otherwise she's going to become two Half-Great Fairy creatures. :)
This can only go well.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 05:27:11 PM by ariasderros »
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Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #271 on: May 10, 2012, 05:20:31 PM »
Heh, well if your desperate for some form of gratification, then you've interpreted the rules correctly as you presented them, and in that, you are right.

Regardless of your position on that, we're done here, and I accept the rules of cover as they've been described.

EDIT: Cut in half, not really. Fun being doubled, yes. And hey, sorry if I sound like I'm trying to beat you to death with a rusty shoe. I've left games when people are like "Well, here's this and this, and everyone agrees with me, so as soon as you admit that I was right, we can continue."
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 05:30:47 PM by Sneaky_Sable »
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Offline Anomander

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #272 on: May 10, 2012, 05:28:54 PM »
Thanks guys.

I still believe that the grazing of the ship's edge counts as far as passing through a border that blocks line of effect.
I just can't look at the angle osle's vertical graphic and not call that cover, but will abide to the ruling without questioning it further.

Now, unless, Kong decides to post some actions I decide that Pha will take a 5ft step up and demoralize the big dude as a move action, activate Cold Sign as a swift, and activate Icy Vortex as a standard.
Kong is free to just charge the big dude and try to kill him or pass by, pick Pha and leave with her.
I am fine either way but considering the big dude might be cowering and thus unable to do AoO or otherwise retaliate against Kong until next turn, I would be happy to see him charge it and beat it to death.
I'd like a sign of which one it will be though.

Edit: Oh, can I switch Icy Vortex off before the end of my turn or must it last the entire round?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 05:36:22 PM by Anomander »

Offline Flay Crimsonwind

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #273 on: May 10, 2012, 05:38:54 PM »
Kong's original idea was to just bomb the hell out of them, wreck the launcher, and see if a deck assault wasn't feasible. If he sees that the fairy is in trouble though, he'd probably try dragging you back to shore.

However, I'm only 55 ft from shore, and if I recall, the ship is 200 ft. So I'll be flying for another two rounds, about. I'm way too far off to save anyone yet; Kong's action for this turn is going to be a double move for 90 ft of movement.
I'm here and ready to keep confusing the hell out of everyone I meet.

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #274 on: May 10, 2012, 05:44:22 PM »
The ship has moved another 100 feet since the last round. The right edge of the docks map connects directly to the left side of the sea map.

Anomander:Thanks for the understanding. Also no, icy vortex can't be dismissed once started.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #275 on: May 10, 2012, 05:45:03 PM »
Oh, just noticed the map changes. all my actions are as they were, except 80ft over the pirate @L31.
Also Flay, you can run for x4 movement. for 180ft.
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Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #276 on: May 10, 2012, 05:51:11 PM »
Mind if I ask how the ship moved? The Feather Token will keep it anchored in place for 24 hours. Unless you meant it moved the hundred feet THEN was anchored, in which case I really need to learn how to read. Maybe just take a day off from the forums and relax and stop being so twitchy.
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #277 on: May 10, 2012, 05:52:51 PM »
Mind if I ask how the ship moved? The Feather Token will keep it anchored in place for 24 hours
It moved into your anchor, remember?
Pha was flying there with it out just waiting for it to hit her.
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Offline Anomander

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #278 on: May 10, 2012, 05:53:23 PM »
@Flay:You are less than 50ft away from the ship and you have a 55ft flight speed. (40ft base racial speed + 15ft from Fast ability)
By all means, if you want to charge-pounce the big mother and axe/bat his guts around, go forth. If you don't mind getting damage by her aura, even better.
If you don't want to get damaged by it, feel free to just charge in. I'll move 10ft up and use Never Outnumbered to make your job easier.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 06:03:45 PM by Anomander »

Offline Sneaky_Sable

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Re: Pre-Campaign Discussion
« Reply #279 on: May 10, 2012, 05:54:02 PM »
Mind if I ask how the ship moved? The Feather Token will keep it anchored in place for 24 hours
It moved into your anchor, remember?
Pha was flying there with it out just waiting for it to hit her.

...

And now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go take a breather. Thank you :)

And you were right, Aria.
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