Author Topic: Looking for user input: New karma system  (Read 11620 times)

Offline Prime32

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Looking for user input: New karma system
« on: April 14, 2012, 06:01:55 PM »
We've been looking at replacing the current Reputation score with a new system, which allows you to give a thumbs-up to individual posts (rather than users). You get only one vote per post, though you can change/remove it at any time. Hopefully when you get +1'd in this system you should have a better idea of why.

However...
  • Should a cumulative "Respect" score be displayed under your username, based on the reputation of your posts?
  • Is a karma system even worth having, or should we scrap it altogether? Any suggestions for alternative systems?

I've turned on the new system for Board Business - you should see an upwards arrow above this post and others here (excepting your own posts), along with that post's score if it has one.


EDIT: This is the first time we've used the Announcement feature for a topic. Did everyone get an email? Is it too obtrusive?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 06:11:00 PM by Prime32 »

Offline Agita

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2012, 06:04:31 PM »
Upvoted the OP to show off the system.
Please send private messages regarding board matters to Forum Staff instead.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2012, 06:22:28 PM »
I got the email.

I don't see where to upvote -- there's a "+1" near the upper right of the OP, but when I mouseover the cursor changes to a big question mark and it isn't clickable.
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Offline Prime32

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2012, 06:24:07 PM »
Does it appear now?

EDIT: To be safe
This is the first time we've used the Announcement feature for a topic. Did everyone get an email? Is it too obtrusive?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 06:29:58 PM by Prime32 »

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2012, 06:26:26 PM »
I clicked it and the arrow became green.
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Offline Kajhera

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2012, 06:30:30 PM »
Interesting.

I didn't get the e-mail for this, the only announcement I've gotten from the boards was regarding the Forum Staff account.

Edit: Whatever way you decide the system works I'd prefer one where I could go through and +1 every homebrew monster oslecamo's made that I've used in the space of a few minutes. Recognition as it is currently, with the wait, and not showing what post it's for doesn't lend itself to such swift acknowledgments. (Other homebrew I use in bulk too.)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 06:38:49 PM by Kajhera »

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2012, 06:38:13 PM »
I do feel like some sort of cumulative "respect" counter can be useful, since it gives new people a better idea of who they're listening to.  Yes, it encourages some man-part-measurement, but it's helpful to be able to gauge whether the person just posts a lot, or whether they actually get feedback for their posts.
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Offline Agita

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2012, 06:47:49 PM »
On a related note, do you think you'd be more likely to upvote specific posts on impulse on a per-post basis than you are with the current system? Would this be different between upvotes with total scores and without?
(This is more my own curiosity than trying to decide between one or the other.)
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Offline Kajhera

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2012, 06:53:07 PM »
I don't think my impulsivity would change one way or the other, but I'd be more likely to vote up things that haven't been recently posted, but often referenced, since there would be a much clearer indication of what the recognition's for.

Offline McPoyo

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2012, 07:09:20 PM »
I got the email announcement just fine.

Is there a way it could be tracked what section of the boards the cumulative vote score is for a given person? Say, someone is really active on Homebrew, you'd see that their massive score was mostly from homebrew and not, say Ask a Question, and would help gauge where that person has their strengths/spends most of their time?

Impulsivity for myself is unlikely to change, primarily because I just plain forget it's there sometimes. I like the present system well enough (though I don't have a preference between the two), but would like if you could input a reason why you gave credit to a person so they could know what they got positive rep for.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2012, 07:22:46 PM »
I still think Karma is a horrible horrible system.

Like I was sitting at 27ish then I argued about SA and went up five points. Verbally beating the crap out of idiots is fun and new people think I'm awesome, sounds like that's what I should do if I want to be a cool kid. Flame war ftw!

Real respect is earned without a karma system. I can say I'd take Sin's advice on MtG or I shouldn't read anything made by TSS and certainly no number below their avatar is going to help that out. If you must have a system, forget per post and do not allow it to ever be awarded for arguing. In fact, the only shiny thing in my profile I've been awarded that I like is my Handbook Writer title and I've long thought we should have a handbook rating system as not all guides are created equal.

Maybe only accounting for quality guides is one method, I mean if you feel so strongly Skirmish is over overpowered and free then you'd be willing to write a thesis on why and then I can rate it the lowest score possible. Now a newer person knows not to take that person's advice as some of word of god.

P.S. On the subject of email. I check my secondary emails like once a never so I have no idea it worked or even which email I used here to know which one to check. Even my primary is only checked once a week when dealing with personal business, email and voice mail is like a giant sink hole around me.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 07:26:38 PM by SorO_Lost »
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Offline Kajhera

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2012, 07:33:27 PM »
Tracking it by section as proposed would help with that sort of deal, for cumulative, to see if people are valuing your input in debates / shoring up their side of the argument in true hunter-gatherer band democracy style, writing valued handbooks, constructing useful homebrew or helpfully answering peoples' questions.

Whether this is something we should be tracking about a person is another question, but we already have statistics by board so it would be pretty cool. Little complicated though.

And, obviously, if it's just by post it's pretty obvious what the post is about.

Offline Prime32

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2012, 07:34:46 PM »
Is there a way it could be tracked what section of the boards the cumulative vote score is for a given person? Say, someone is really active on Homebrew, you'd see that their massive score was mostly from homebrew and not, say Ask a Question, and would help gauge where that person has their strengths/spends most of their time?
Afraid not. The closest that's possible is enabling it on some boards only.

Offline altpersona

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2012, 07:38:24 PM »
i know the karma system has had its troubles in the past...

up/down voting a thread post, and a running total shown in the posters area seems reasonable.

it would take a lot of effort to track down every post someone made to neg them to death..

i would take the existing kudos down and just use the thread up/downs to replace it.

i'd also show both ups and downs instead of a sum of the two.
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Offline TSS

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2012, 07:46:38 PM »
i know the karma system has had its troubles in the past...

up/down voting a thread post, and a running total shown in the posters area seems reasonable.

it would take a lot of effort to track down every post someone made to neg them to death..

i would take the existing kudos down and just use the thread up/downs to replace it.

i'd also show both ups and downs instead of a sum of the two.

I could name a half dozen different posters that would follow certain users around and -1 every single post they make. I will not name those posters, but all of the problems with a karma system (certain posters +1ing people constantly because they argue with people they don't like, certain posters going from 0 to 20 or more in days simply because they made dozens of posts in a row all attacking an unpopular poster) would be magnified if there were also a -1 system.

The intention of the system is to +1 good posts but very few people use it for that. Despite what some would claim that's what I use it for. Most people either use it to encourage attacks or to promote a circle jerk.

Overall I don't particularly care about the system one way or another.
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Offline Slaughterhouserock

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2012, 07:54:14 PM »
  • Should a cumulative "Respect" score be displayed under your username, based on the reputation of your posts?
  • Is a karma system even worth having, or should we scrap it altogether? Any suggestions for alternative systems?
  • This is the first time we've used the Announcement feature for a topic. Did everyone get an email? Is it too obtrusive?

1.  No, see 2.
2.  No.  In every message board I've seen with a karma/respect/etc. system, it either got abused or ignored and meant pure fuckall in both cases.  People will always side with those they agree with, leading to inflation of numbers for those people, even if said people are wrong ninety percent of the time.  New people(generally younger people IME) then see these high numbers and assume those are the people they should listen to, leading to misinformation being spread like the plague.  People will also give kudos/karma/etc. for the wrong reasons, e.g. arguing against someone a poster doesn't like, as SorO pointed out.  These systems always look good on paper, but never work in practice.
3.  I got it and it was unobtrusive.
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Offline Kajhera

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2012, 08:13:44 PM »
... If you're looking for proposals on alternative systems: Private kudos system. PMs are too small for me to go around telling everyone 'hey this post is helpful', and saying 'I liked this' is rarely a helpful contribution to a thread, so... +1 system visible to those who posted.

Reasons make me happy too, even if it seems to be getting into should be doing something else territory, I'd be much happier giving +1 with a reason than PMing someone or posting (owing to obtrusiveness).
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 08:15:39 PM by Kajhera »

Offline InnaBinder

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2012, 08:36:46 PM »
  • Should a cumulative "Respect" score be displayed under your username, based on the reputation of your posts?
  • Is a karma system even worth having, or should we scrap it altogether? Any suggestions for alternative systems?
  • This is the first time we've used the Announcement feature for a topic. Did everyone get an email? Is it too obtrusive?

1.  No, see 2.
2.  No.  In every message board I've seen with a karma/respect/etc. system, it either got abused or ignored and meant pure fuckall in both cases.  People will always side with those they agree with, leading to inflation of numbers for those people, even if said people are wrong ninety percent of the time.  New people(generally younger people IME) then see these high numbers and assume those are the people they should listen to, leading to misinformation being spread like the plague.  People will also give kudos/karma/etc. for the wrong reasons, e.g. arguing against someone a poster doesn't like, as SorO pointed out.  These systems always look good on paper, but never work in practice.
3.  I got it and it was unobtrusive.
Slaughterhouserock hit all my salient points, though I got emailed twice in a row about the announcement (to the same account; I don't use any sock-puppets here).
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Offline Kajhera

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2012, 08:39:19 PM »
Slaughterhouserock hit all my salient points, though I got emailed twice in a row about the announcement (to the same account; I don't use any sock-puppets here).

So you're the filth what stole my rightful letter.  :shakefist

Offline Prime32

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Re: Looking for user input: New karma system
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2012, 09:05:22 PM »
I got emailed twice in a row about the announcement (to the same account; I don't use any sock-puppets here).
I think that's because you're in multiple membergroups. That should be avoidable in future.