Author Topic: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft  (Read 7122 times)

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2016, 02:54:07 PM »
I've noticed that not all Cleave required techniques actually state that they need the weapon to be wielded in two hands.  Are you assuming that the person will remember that Cleave = two hands or was that an oversight?  (Not judging, just asking.)

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2016, 03:16:34 PM »
I've noticed that not all Cleave required techniques actually state that they need the weapon to be wielded in two hands.  Are you assuming that the person will remember that Cleave = two hands or was that an oversight?  (Not judging, just asking.)
It SHOULD say that in the Cleave tag description. Or is that what you meant about remembering? I had hoped to be able to take out the text.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2016, 09:43:20 PM »
I've noticed that not all Cleave required techniques actually state that they need the weapon to be wielded in two hands.  Are you assuming that the person will remember that Cleave = two hands or was that an oversight?  (Not judging, just asking.)
It SHOULD say that in the Cleave tag description. Or is that what you meant about remembering? I had hoped to be able to take out the text.

That's what I said about remembering.  It is in the cleave tag, but it's also in all of the Cleave basic techniques but one.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #63 on: November 18, 2016, 10:18:13 PM »
I've noticed that not all Cleave required techniques actually state that they need the weapon to be wielded in two hands.  Are you assuming that the person will remember that Cleave = two hands or was that an oversight?  (Not judging, just asking.)
It SHOULD say that in the Cleave tag description. Or is that what you meant about remembering? I had hoped to be able to take out the text.

That's what I said about remembering.  It is in the cleave tag, but it's also in all of the Cleave basic techniques but one.
Oh, ok. I can include it, then. Which one is missing?
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #64 on: November 19, 2016, 07:57:38 AM »
Moderate styles posted. I'm also (after a bit of discussion on GitP) upping the number of techniques known. Now you get 4 at 1st level, +1 per BAB. And Blade Training gives 3 additional.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2016, 12:22:14 PM »
I've noticed that not all Cleave required techniques actually state that they need the weapon to be wielded in two hands.  Are you assuming that the person will remember that Cleave = two hands or was that an oversight?  (Not judging, just asking.)
It SHOULD say that in the Cleave tag description. Or is that what you meant about remembering? I had hoped to be able to take out the text.

That's what I said about remembering.  It is in the cleave tag, but it's also in all of the Cleave basic techniques but one.
Oh, ok. I can include it, then. Which one is missing?


The Robin Pecks at the Worm.  The first sentence of The Fox and the Chicken says "Wielding your weapon two-handed..."


Hopefully later today I'll have time to review the techniques.

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #66 on: November 20, 2016, 04:37:25 PM »
"Folding the Fan" (Wax) still says "Granted: Sheathed"

"The Serpent Strikes" (Wood) has an extra [ at the start.

"The Viper Flicks Its Tongue" (Wood) should say "Basic Wood Assault"

All of the following need the order of their tags checked:
  • Kissing the Adder (Flame)
  • Lion on the Hill (Flame)
  • Ribbon in the Air (Flame)
  • Cutting the Clouds (Iron)
  • Watered Silk (Iron)
  • Plucking the Low-Hanging Apple (Vine)
  • The River Undercuts the Bank (Vine)
  • Twisting the Wind (Vine)


The following have an extra period at the end of their tags:
  • Emptiness (Iron)
  • Two Hares Leaping (Iron)
  • Leopard in the Tree (Vine)
  • Twisting the Wind (Vine)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2016, 07:24:43 PM by FireInTheSky »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #67 on: November 20, 2016, 06:44:40 PM »
Cloud
 - Low Wind Rising requires Stand but it says you can use it while sitting.  This amuses me.

Wood
 - I feel like from a thematic viewpoint each style (at least each Basic style) should be usable by itself.   The Falcon Stoops requires Thrust but no Wood technique grants Thrust.

Bone
 - The Stone Remembers has some confusing language with the bonuses.

Flame
 -it's less necessary here, but Lightning of Three Prongs requires Spin and it's also the only Flame technique that grants Spin.

Iron
 - Lion Springs requires Spin but no Iron technique grants Spin.

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #68 on: November 20, 2016, 07:47:32 PM »
It feels like the word "the" appears too many times at the start of technique names. I haven't read the Stormlight Archives, but in the other two, for the most part the form names don't usually start with "the." Some suggestions:
(click to show/hide)
Take a look at the Advanced and Expert techniques for the same thing.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #69 on: November 20, 2016, 09:59:30 PM »
The Robin Pecks at the Worm.  The first sentence of The Fox and the Chicken says "Wielding your weapon two-handed..."
Aha! OK, I've added the text to TRPatW.

"Folding the Fan" (Wax) still says "Granted: Sheathed"

"The Serpent Strikes" (Wood) has an extra [ at the start.

"The Viper Flicks Its Tongue" (Wood) should say "Basic Wood Assault"

All of the following need the order of their tags checked:
  • Kissing the Adder (Flame)
  • Lion on the Hill (Flame)
  • Ribbon in the Air (Flame)
  • Cutting the Clouds (Iron)
  • Watered Silk (Iron)
  • Plucking the Low-Hanging Apple (Vine)
  • The River Undercuts the Bank (Vine)
  • Twisting the Wind (Vine)


The following have an extra period at the end of their tags:
  • Emptiness (Iron)
  • Two Hares Leaping (Iron)
  • Leopard in the Tree (Vine)
  • Twisting the Wind (Vine)
I'm a horrible, horrible person for missing all of these.  :sobbing Thank you

Cloud
 - Low Wind Rising requires Stand but it says you can use it while sitting.  This amuses me.
:D

Answering these slightly out of order, for grouping purposes:
Quote
Wood
 - I feel like from a thematic viewpoint each style (at least each Basic style) should be usable by itself.   The Falcon Stoops requires Thrust but no Wood technique grants Thrust.

Flame
 -it's less necessary here, but Lightning of Three Prongs requires Spin and it's also the only Flame technique that grants Spin.

Iron
 - Lion Springs requires Spin but no Iron technique grants Spin.
In answer, I'll quote here an exchange between me & Amechra over on GitP:

Quote from: Amechra
Quote from: sirpercival
Quote from: Amechra
Interesting note (if you treat the Styles as "complete" fighting styles):

- Cloud Stylists have to reset after Skipping Stone on the Shore, and will be using Low Wind Rises all the frickin' time. Also, to them, The Red Hawk Catches A Dove → The Fox And The Chicken → The Wolf Stalks Through The Mist probably all seem like parts of the same technique.

- Leaf Stylists can't use The Maiden Dances, and have to reset their pattern after The Robin Pecks The Worm. Which, unfortunately, will happen inevitably, unless you can continue to loop Drifting Snow and Leaf Floating On The Breeze. Literally anything else will lead to the sequence ending at The Robin Pecks The Worm.

- Wax Stylists have to reset after Cat On Hot Sand and The Millstone Grinds Flour. They end up boiling down to "spam (Un)Folding The Fan over and over".

- Wood Stylists can't use The Falcon Stoops, and have to reset their pattern when they use Pressing Apples Into Cider. Their sequences tend to be short or repetitive. Dog Howling At Midnight is probably viewed as a poor stance to start from - it provides limited options.

...

And then the guy who has mastered more than one comes by and demonstrates that the so-called "dead ends" of each style flow into each-other flawlessly, making up for each-other's weakness.
This is all entirely intentional, and also, in my opinion, 100% necessary. The styles are NOT "complete", and were explicitly designed not to be, and it's why I kept the number of techniques per style so limited (compare 8 techniques to ~25 maneuvers in a discipline). If you ever want or need to be able to switch seamlessly between styles mid-combat, there have to be entry and exit points so you don't waste any actions. This is a requirement - a Blademaster who isn't versatile or adaptable is a dead Blademaster. The styles are convenience groupings only - the ultimate Blademaster knows every technique.
I know - I just wanted to point it out to everyone so they'd all know how clever you are .
Lol. Hopefully that explains it!

Quote
Bone
 - The Stone Remembers has some confusing language with the bonuses.
I shall attempt to clarify.

It feels like the word "the" appears too many times at the start of technique names. I haven't read the Stormlight Archives, but in the other two, for the most part the form names don't usually start with "the." Some suggestions:
(click to show/hide)
Take a look at the Advanced and Expert techniques for the same thing.
All of the technique names in the original 10 styles were taken almost verbatim from WoT. For example, check this out.

But if other people have a problem with them, I can edit.

By the by, I'm working on a table as part of the rework. So you don't need to make one :) And, the Advanced styles will be posted tonight or tomorrow.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #70 on: November 20, 2016, 10:31:34 PM »
Oh, re: tag order, all of those are correct. Note that tags are now given in the order Gesture, Hand, Motion, Position (which it says in the post header for each styles post).
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #71 on: November 20, 2016, 10:59:24 PM »
By the by, I'm working on a table as part of the rework. So you don't need to make one :)
Now you tell me...  :shakefist

Oh, re: tag order, all of those are correct. Note that tags are now given in the order Gesture, Hand, Motion, Position (which it says in the post header for each styles post).
Well, in that case you should make the order of the "Bladecraft Tags" intro in the inital post be that same order.

It feels like the word "the" appears too many times at the start of technique names. I haven't read the Stormlight Archives, but in the other two, for the most part the form names don't usually start with "the." Some suggestions:
(click to show/hide)
Take a look at the Advanced and Expert techniques for the same thing.
All of the technique names in the original 10 styles were taken almost verbatim from WoT. For example, check this out.

But if other people have a problem with them, I can edit.
Huh. That's not at all what I remembered. In that case, do whatever. :)

...I''l quote here an exchange between me & Amechra over on GitP:
Quote from: Amechra
Quote from: sirpercival
Quote from: Amechra
Exchange
Exchange
Exchane
Good stuff! Maybe put something to that effect somewhere in the rules / descriptions?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2016, 11:03:36 PM by FireInTheSky »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #72 on: November 21, 2016, 11:41:27 AM »
It doesn't surprise me that the styles not being self-sufficient with the tags is intentional but I figure that the Basic styles should be.  That's just at thematic disagreement though, not a system or balance one, so it's not a real issue.


Also, I agree with FitS.  That exchange (or a small paragraph summing it up) in the first post would be a good idea.  A lot of people are going to be reading this thinking about how it relates to Maneuvers where each schools is independent.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #73 on: November 22, 2016, 10:19:13 AM »
Alright, I FINALLY got a new update posted. (Busy weekend!)

Changelog:
  • In the opening post I split the explanation of blade styles into its own section, so I could add an explicit note of the "styles are not inherently separate" thing.
  • I added three feats, and added Soulknife to the list of classes which are getting sub levels.
  • Did some minor edits on the Basic & Moderate techniques.
  • The biggest part of the update is that I added the reworked Advanced techniques, including the brand new Blood style. I noticed when working out tags that it's becoming much, much harder to make sure that every technique has an entry point while keeping required & granted tag sets unique. So, Blood style involves several tag-manipulation techniques which are probably going to end up being must-learns.
  • Minor note: When working on the Basic techniques a few days ago, I noticed that I had accidentally written both Rain in High Wind (an Advanced tech in Wind style), and Rain on High Wind (a Basic tech in Cloud style). So I changed the Cloud tech to "in" which is what it was supposed to be originally, and renamed the Wind tech to Two Lovers. So don't be confused.
  • I haven't yet done a culling of "The" since there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus about whether it's necessary. (My inclination is to leave it as-is, but that's mostly laziness, so I'm not actually giving myself a vote.)
Current Priority List:
  • Expert Styles rework (including the new Sun style)
  • Find a place to post the table of techniques I'm compiling as I do the rework
  • Blademaster PrC overhaul. Will be trimmed to 5 levels.
  • Sub levels for: Barbarian, Duskblade, Factotum, Hexblade, Knight, Marshal, Monk, Ninja, Paladin, Psychic Warrior, Ranger, Rogue, Samurai, Scout, Soulknife, and Swashbuckler. (Hopefully all of them will fit in one post... which is already full of feats.........)
  • Reaver (+ Thorn style) and Warden (+ Husk style) 5-level PrCs. {note: style names may change}
  • Other material TBD; haven't decided if I'm going to write an Bladecraft-incarnum PrC which I've brainstormed, but if I do it'll probably be 10 levels.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #74 on: November 22, 2016, 11:18:15 AM »
I see no issues with the new feats.

I'm indifferent to "The".

I should actually be working right now so I'll do Advanced styles later...

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #75 on: November 22, 2016, 10:28:11 PM »
Working on the Expert styles, I think I need to take out the explicit requirement part of Hand tags. If I don't, the Expert techniques will get incredibly, ridiculously confusing, and you won't be able to use them without wielding a double weapon that you sheathe with your buckler.

The techniques writeups will specify if you need to do something in particular, not the tags.
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #76 on: November 22, 2016, 10:36:04 PM »
Quote
Blood Style
The Blood style has Advanced complexity. Almost every advanced student learns techniques from Blood style, the pulsing heart of superior Bladecraft. As the techniques a practitioner learns become more and more complex, it becomes similarly complicated to chain them together into a smooth, continuous dance. Blood style emphasizes control and fluidity, allowing the combatant to adapt to an evolving battle. While few of its techniques are particularly deadly in isolation, but every sequence of blows exchanged by the best Blademasters includes at least one technique from the Blood style.
Grammar.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #77 on: November 22, 2016, 11:36:14 PM »
Quote
Blood Style
The Blood style has Advanced complexity. Almost every advanced student learns techniques from Blood style, the pulsing heart of superior Bladecraft. As the techniques a practitioner learns become more and more complex, it becomes similarly complicated to chain them together into a smooth, continuous dance. Blood style emphasizes control and fluidity, allowing the combatant to adapt to an evolving battle. While few of its techniques are particularly deadly in isolation, but every sequence of blows exchanged by the best Blademasters includes at least one technique from the Blood style.
Grammar.
Dangit, I thought I fixed that. It'll be fixed in the next update.

So, I'm thinking about allowing a Bladecraft check to change a granted tag. It's kinda necessary in Expert, since there are only 32 techniques (including forms) and 81 possible combinations of the 12 tags... my coverage is less than half. Two questions: (a) does anyone see a problem with this? (b) should it be an intrinsic part of the skill, or should it be a feat w/ high pre-reqs?
 
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Offline Amechra

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #78 on: November 23, 2016, 02:02:17 AM »
Quote
Blood Style
The Blood style has Advanced complexity. Almost every advanced student learns techniques from Blood style, the pulsing heart of superior Bladecraft. As the techniques a practitioner learns become more and more complex, it becomes similarly complicated to chain them together into a smooth, continuous dance. Blood style emphasizes control and fluidity, allowing the combatant to adapt to an evolving battle. While few of its techniques are particularly deadly in isolation, but every sequence of blows exchanged by the best Blademasters includes at least one technique from the Blood style.
Grammar.
Dangit, I thought I fixed that. It'll be fixed in the next update.

So, I'm thinking about allowing a Bladecraft check to change a granted tag. It's kinda necessary in Expert, since there are only 32 techniques (including forms) and 81 possible combinations of the 12 tags... my coverage is less than half. Two questions: (a) does anyone see a problem with this? (b) should it be an intrinsic part of the skill, or should it be a feat w/ high pre-reqs?

It should be a check to keep a pre-existing tag.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #79 on: November 23, 2016, 06:01:00 AM »
Quote
Blood Style
The Blood style has Advanced complexity. Almost every advanced student learns techniques from Blood style, the pulsing heart of superior Bladecraft. As the techniques a practitioner learns become more and more complex, it becomes similarly complicated to chain them together into a smooth, continuous dance. Blood style emphasizes control and fluidity, allowing the combatant to adapt to an evolving battle. While few of its techniques are particularly deadly in isolation, but every sequence of blows exchanged by the best Blademasters includes at least one technique from the Blood style.
Grammar.
Dangit, I thought I fixed that. It'll be fixed in the next update.

So, I'm thinking about allowing a Bladecraft check to change a granted tag. It's kinda necessary in Expert, since there are only 32 techniques (including forms) and 81 possible combinations of the 12 tags... my coverage is less than half. Two questions: (a) does anyone see a problem with this? (b) should it be an intrinsic part of the skill, or should it be a feat w/ high pre-reqs?

It should be a check to keep a pre-existing tag.
That is a very interesting idea. Would it be in place of a granted tag, or in addition to?
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