Author Topic: General Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 52732 times)

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2013, 07:58:40 PM »
Evidently it will lay in wait of a new hotblooded pilot to pick it up and slowly work to unlock its full potential again. :p

How does this interact with this passage from Super Pilot?

Quote
If you're piloting another person's super robot (either burrowed or stolen), you can use any maneuvers that super robot knows without you knowing them yourself, but you use the super robot's level instead of your own level for the purposes of those maneuvers.

Does a Super Robot stop being "yours" when you die?

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2013, 11:06:52 PM »
Speaking of which, I just thought of something; if you have the leadership feat or otherwise gain the ability to have followers or apprentices. Can they have levels in Mecha Mook?
It could be interesting to go in their junk-mecha with them when you're in a bind when yours blow up or if you don't have a mecha to begin with.

Also, on the subject of Relationship feats, what happens if the person you chose when you took the feat dies or if you stop having the required feeling for that person.
Those feat have no actual requirement and so do not need you to still have the relevant feelings to still work, and a dead selected one may still be returned to life. Normally.
Still, is there a process by which this feat may be realigned to someone else?
This would be quite useful in these kind of online pbp games when you never know if the player whose character you linked yourself to won't go MIA for months without warning.
Otherwise the safest targets of those feats would be DMPCs and cohorts.

The Extra upgrade option of the Super Robot grants an extra in-built weapon. Where do we select those? The Arsenal? If so, is that extra weapon taking arsenal space as well?

Mighty refers to a main weapon. How do we determine which is the main weapon? Even the Real Robot don't seem to have one.

Sentient; Supporting states that the robot itself provides bonuses. It seems to imply that the robot is spending the immediate action, not the pilot, and can more or less grant those once per round even if the pilot is inside it.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 02:34:26 PM by Anomander »

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2013, 07:27:42 AM »
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Stealth:The mecha can hide whitout actualy having anything to hide behind, even in the middle of the sky or the empty space.

Can this basically be taken to mean that it works as the Hide in Plain Sight feature?

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2013, 05:11:16 PM »
The Extra upgrade option of the Super Robot grants an extra in-built weapon. Where do we select those? The Arsenal? If so, is that extra weapon taking arsenal space as well?

It means an extra basic weapon of the type described in the Super Robot base stats spoiler. That is, it's a melee weapon with base damage of 1d6+str.

Mighty refers to a main weapon. How do we determine which is the main weapon? Even the Real Robot don't seem to have one.

Main Weapon is an upgrade.

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2013, 06:31:22 PM »
Ah, I see! Thanks. Totally makes sense.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2013, 06:44:43 PM »
Evidently it will lay in wait of a new hotblooded pilot to pick it up and slowly work to unlock its full potential again. :p

How does this interact with this passage from Super Pilot?

Quote
If you're piloting another person's super robot (either burrowed or stolen), you can use any maneuvers that super robot knows without you knowing them yourself, but you use the super robot's level instead of your own level for the purposes of those maneuvers.

Does a Super Robot stop being "yours" when you die?
Yes. Just like the rest of your posessions.

Speaking of which, I just thought of something; if you have the leadership feat or otherwise gain the ability to have followers or apprentices. Can they have levels in Mecha Mook?
It could be interesting to go in their junk-mecha with them when you're in a bind when yours blow up or if you don't have a mecha to begin with.
Yes. Can't say it is very safe to fly around in one of those yourself tough, may be better to just get into an ally's mecha.

Also, on the subject of Relationship feats, what happens if the person you chose when you took the feat dies or if you stop having the required feeling for that person.
Those feat have no actual requirement and so do not need you to still have the relevant feelings to still work, and a dead selected one may still be returned to life. Normally.
Still, is there a process by which this feat may be realigned to someone else?
This would be quite useful in these kind of online pbp games when you never know if the player whose character you linked yourself to won't go MIA for months without warning.
Otherwise the safest targets of those feats would be DMPCs and cohorts.
Easy retraining would kinda defeat the whole idea behind "Strong feelings give you power".

There's regular retraining feats in a splat somewhere are they not? I believe those would work well for geting over an old love/rivarly/friendship.

Also I already pointed out absent PCs can be controlled by active PCs. Having a relationship feat would actually give you priority on that.

Sentient; Supporting states that the robot itself provides bonuses. It seems to imply that the robot is spending the immediate action, not the pilot, and can more or less grant those once per round even if the pilot is inside it.
As per sentient, the Super robot can still only take actions on its own when you're outside of it. That was more meant for those pilots that prefer to stand at the side of their super robots rather than inside them.

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2013, 06:51:52 PM »
Excellent. Thanks.

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2013, 12:05:31 AM »
A detail I was wondering; wouldn't it be better to have the damage of a critical hit deal as much damage to the pilot as it would deal to the mecha instead of just normal damage to the pilot and the multiplied damage to the mecha? I mean, you hit the bloody cockpit. I think that's usually an instant kill in mecha stuff.
Mostly because I think a pilot would normally have a much easier time healing himself than healing his mecha. I'd rather have my pilot eat the normal damage than have my mecha eat it instead.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2013, 02:36:28 AM »
With mecha as comparatively durable as they are, that would make critical hits really bad news. Go check how high the damage output on weapons can get. Or ships' beam cannons. >_>;
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Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2013, 03:05:07 AM »
I have and I don't really see a problem with it. Mecha pilots have no shortage of means to avoid/reduce damage either.
You may be right, still.

Currently looking for means to save a mecha from blowing up at 0 hp. One with the Machine doesn't let you die for the mecha so maybe there is some die-for-you effect somewhere I can use. Mmh.  :plot

...Also, once your mecha gains sentience, would it be considered weird, or maybe even a little creepy, to have relationship feats with your mecha as the target?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 03:31:37 AM by Anomander »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2013, 03:58:27 AM »
It doesn't really make sense--cockpits being damaged at all are represented by the critical hit harming you.

Somehow, I don't think having a relationship feat with your mecha is going to be acceptable (rival and love are mind-boggling).

What's the carrying capacity for ships?
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Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2013, 04:16:17 AM »
Aye, but as is you only get the normal damage. The critical damage goes to the mecha. A x3 crit weapon would harm the mecha more than it hurts the pilot.
Though I've watched a few mecha pilot deaths just now and usually when they get the cockpit both the mecha explodes with the pilot, or the pilot gets killed by a bigass weapon and the mecha explodes afterwards, so the mecha suffering much from the attack makes sense.

I don't think it will be either. I think rival/love could work when the pilot is a robot too, though.
Dying for the mecha in my case might be easier since I more or less become the mecha by having it use my hp.
Not sure some construct resurrection ability could resurrect it.
It would be akin to the enemy thinking he has defeated the mecha and destroyed it, but somehow there is STILL a tiny little bit energy left within, enough for the spark of power remaining to become a hot blooded inferno thanks to the strong emotions of the pilot (And maybe a flashback or two. Or three.) that somehow survived the mecha's destruction without using the escape pod. And for some reason now it is strong enough to defeat that great enemy.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2013, 06:35:11 AM »
Aye, but as is you only get the normal damage. The critical damage goes to the mecha. A x3 crit weapon would harm the mecha more than it hurts the pilot.

Given that 'critical' does not mean 'direct hit on the cockpit' but rather 'damaged vital/delicate systems', it makes sense for the mecha to take waaaaaaaaay more damage.

In which case, you have unleashed a monstrosity whose only priority is to follow orders from you onto the battlefield, without your being there to instruct it. :p

Oh, hey, found a scene I was looking for a while ago.
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Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2013, 01:02:35 PM »
Wondering, is there something on mechas that stop people from just teleporting into another's mecha?
Like using a dimension door, or phasing in from the etereal plane. Or otherwise appear in your cockpit to duke it out with you from inside.
And if you get attacking inside the cockpit, are you at a disadvantage if you don't stop piloting your mecha while getting attacked?

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2013, 06:35:36 PM »
Okay, observation: there's a line in the Main Weapon upgrade that specifies what happens if an in-built weapon is Heavy. You can't get a heavy in-built weapon (save for Real Robot multiclassing, which just seems weirder: Real Robots get a bonus effect out of a Super upgrade?)

Regeneration seems hellishly overkill. Get it fully upgraded with a Super Robot that's poured all its points into health and regeneration? 160 (+1.75)  HP back. Per turn. Get two things like that, without any save or die effects, and they'll be firing away forever...

And now... a short version (because it's too late at night for the long version) of something that's been bugging me all day: Real Robots just seem plain better to go for than the Supers. They get power jumps, yeah, but the tiers are fully competitive right before upgrading, and they get better Arsenal stuff at the same time as better robots. The gap just never seems to close.

Hell, take their class abilities: average difference of 1 hp isn't going to make a big difference, both have full BAB and one good save, Real Pilot has more skillpoints, same proficiencies. Okay. Next? Well, the Real Pilot gets more bonus feats, but less spirit and doesn't have the favoured maneuver ability. Fair? Doesn't really seem like it: one bonus feat all but erodes the difference in spirit, leaving another two to do whatever with over the super pilot. Maybe the +4 to Pilot Level of one maneuver (and +3 to another, etc.) might make up the gap? Not really expecting so with the large save bonuses everywhere, honestly. And finally, capstone: the super pilot gets 4 upgrade points that cannot exceed HD caps, the real pilot gets another Arsenal weapon.

See, there's a bit of a problem: if a Super Pilot puts 63 points into the straight numerical bonuses, that leaves them another 17 points to play with. Now, what upgrades can be achieved with 4 points? Growth? Well, if you haven't spent it before, that's straight from Medium to Colossal. Higher damage (do the Arsenal weapons even scale?) but suddenly all those targeter upgrades and AC boosts are pretty necessary. Transform? Well, the one option might be handy. Basically, you get a small bonus (because they can be picked at any level) to any one thing. Now, if I'm a Real Pilot? I can grab any of the special weapons if they'd be handy. Any basic weapon that would be useful but isn't already squeezed into the mecha. +6 to dodge and reflex saves (firmly beating whatever the Super Pilot can achieve with the same thing), +8 to all my attack rolls, or--and here's one of the most ridiculous--+8 to dodge and reflex, +10 mu to speed, +10mu to range, and +4 to attack rolls.

Real Robots also have better weapons to start with (aside from anything else, the fact that they get multiple types and everything automatically has a weapon doing more than 1d6 damage or special abilities) and, in general, more access to abilities (especially weapon). The one thing they cannot pull off is regeneration. Everything else? They're going to do just as well or better.

(click to show/hide)
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Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2013, 07:07:59 PM »
I tried both both options and made myself diagrams to evaluate which was the better option and I went with super robot in the end.
Perhaps by the latest levels real robots would get the upper hand again but it would be tight. The Supers' upgrades are quite excellent. They get more HP and energy than reals, which allows them to spend them for maneuvers and energy-hungry weapons more freely. What they lack in weapons they gain in style and durability. Being one step under in arsenal isn't so terrible considering the reals are inferior in everything else but weaponry and that's arguable because in most instances all you need is one good weapon or two. Also, Sentience.

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2013, 07:20:43 PM »
I started writing a response to this on the Phantasy Star campaign board but it would be more appropriate here I think.

Super Robots have superior HP and Energy at every level of Real Robot from II to V and it's only at Real Robot VII that they're actually outclassed in that department.

Quick rundown,

II: Gaurlion has 20/20, Huckbein has 30/20, Super Robot has 40/40

III: Altiesen 60/20, Weiss Writter 30/40, Super Robot 70/70

IV: Astelion 40/60, Boxer 80/80, Super Robot 100/100

V: Wild Wurger 100/100, Wild Falken 80/120, Super Robot 130/130

VI: Ash Saber 150/100, Rappie Cage 200/200, Super Robot 160/160

VII: Altiesen Riese 400/200, Alegrias 200/300, Super Robot 190/190

And that's both base stats before upgrades and stats at the level the new real robot is unlocked.

Given that many of the weapons real robots get built in or from arsenal require energy, as do maneuvers, as does moving, the energy advantage that super robots have is a big deal. It is compounded by Reactor being easier to access for Super Robots. They get Reactor II at level 3, III at lv6 and 4 at lv10. Real robots get reactor II at lv7, III at lv13 and IV at lv19.

Also, Super Robots can have pretty much equal Arsenal space with Real Robots from lv8 on and by lv20 they can have 175 by spending 5 upgrade points. That's more than any real robot. They're only 1 grade of arsenal behind so they can use that space to pretty effectively blunt the advantage arsenal gives the real robot.

Some of the other comparrisons are more complicated but Super Robots definitely have the advantage in a few important areas and their advantage is largest in the mid levels, which is where most campaigns are played.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 07:25:58 PM by Concerned Ninja Citizen »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2013, 07:39:53 PM »
'Gain in style'.

They're all built to be generalists. Despite being supposedly more customisable. As for more HP? One of the two VII Real Robots has exactly 5 less HP. They can get 100 more Energy, but there's no reason to ever do that, because the most you're going to spend is 45 (real robots can get the 70-energy cannon, but Super Robots pretty much just have maneuvers--they have no energy-hungry weapons) and if you use high-level maneuvers constantly, you're better off investing in regenerating it than having a bigger stockpile.

One good weapon or two? They have that by default. Before upgrading.

Don't really agree that the upgrades are 'quite excellent'. Aside from the straight numerical bonuses, you either spent points on weapon properties, flight (whilst normally brilliant, the inbuilt tendency for anything that doesn't have flight to have hugely powerful ranged weapons in this makes it less excellent), or size changes. Being bigger is the only way to have weapon damage keep up, too, which counteracts the numerical bonuses.

Sentient is less useful outside of a gestalt, simply because of the inadvisability, in general, of standing outside your mecha in a class which works best if you stay in the damn thing.

(click to show/hide)

Hilariously, I was focusing on the tier-I Real Robots and tier VII.

Though this raises a question--do Super Robots use energy to fly?
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Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2013, 07:52:56 PM »
Super Robots are also much better at regenerating energy than real robots and the reason a bigger base energy is better, even if you're not using all of it, is that reactor regenerates a portion of your total. A larger total means more regenerated, means you can go longer without running down.

The real robot list is the only place mecha flying is discussed but it does say "all mecha" so I'm thinking that's a yes. That section should probably be copied into the mecha basics post. Also, it says that flying drains energy but it says that in the context of explaining the speed stat. Seems like flying is the default movement mode. Is it possible to move without flying and thus without losing energy? If so, does such movement work off the same speed stat or a different one? This should probably also be addressed in the mecha basics post.

If you look only at I and VII, Super Robots will appear to suck. They're much better in between those two.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2013, 08:00:42 PM »
I still take issue with the fact Super Robots draw from a modular system that's based off of Real Robots. :/

Because it's depressing to invest upgrade points into Hyperspace Containment (or is it Storage?) because that translates one upgrade point into the equivalent of half a dozen or more. And it isn't even thematically appropriate.  :-\

High-levelled Regeneration/Nanomachines/whatever it's called seems likely to lead to attrition problems.

The most Super Robot-y stuff is in Burning Justice... which is kind of weird; you would think lasers are built in. Much of that just seems like a way of getting ranged attacks, though (and it looks very strange for the school to effectively give you better hardware, when the other three schools are all sticking to 'use what you have better' type stuff)

Maybe I'm overthinking this. It just seems... weird that the Super Robot choices will end up so sameish.

Random Balance Thing: I've been looking at it, and increased energy storage (for a Super Robot) is pointless. Reactor II is enough. Aside from levels 1 and 3, you always regenerate as much or more energy than your highest-level maneuver costs, so energy total becomes more of a buffer. Specifically, it's because then your energy regenerated goes up by 6 every two levels, starting at 3, whilst maneuver cost only goes up by 5.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 03:09:01 AM by Raineh Daze »
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