Author Topic: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC  (Read 8694 times)

Offline sirpercival

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OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« on: January 31, 2013, 07:39:37 AM »
So, phae, do I use the normal chargen rules to make the cohort, or something more modest?
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2013, 10:50:05 AM »
The normal rules are fine.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2013, 03:52:50 PM »
And all the normal chargen from FoPP, item rules, etc?  Are we on the Wish economy?
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2013, 04:32:14 PM »
And all the normal chargen from FoPP, item rules, etc?  Are we on the Wish economy?
Yes, but for totally different reasons. :D
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2013, 04:32:54 PM »
And all the normal chargen from FoPP, item rules, etc?  Are we on the Wish economy?
Yes, but for totally different reasons. :D
  :ninja
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2013, 04:45:52 PM »
Double postitude!

How do you feel about the [Metamagic] feats in this post?  Specifically I'm looking at Bottomless, Timeless, and Stealth Magic.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2013, 06:14:59 PM »
Timeless is OK as-is. So is Stealth Magic. I don't like the 3rd level ability of Bottomless Magic. That basically gives you your full spell slot capacity for every fight, as long as you have a bit of time between to replenish them. If I wanted to use a recharge magic variant, I would. :P

If we limit that to 1x/day period (instead of unlimited times per day, as it sounds like it is right now), I'm OK with the feat.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2013, 06:44:21 PM »
Timeless is OK as-is. So is Stealth Magic. I don't like the 3rd level ability of Bottomless Magic. That basically gives you your full spell slot capacity for every fight, as long as you have a bit of time between to replenish them. If I wanted to use a recharge magic variant, I would. :P

If we limit that to 1x/day period (instead of unlimited times per day, as it sounds like it is right now), I'm OK with the feat.
  Perfect.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2013, 10:46:50 PM »
Alternatively, you could exchange that for a Reserve feat-like function.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2013, 07:04:40 AM »
Alternatively, you could exchange that for a Reserve feat-like function.
Honestly Bottomless Magic is less interesting to me than the other two.  I'm not gonna sweat it.  :)  I really like the free extend and silent.
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Offline chris`

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2013, 03:17:47 AM »
How are you handling scroll costs for purposes of having scribed additional spells into a spellbook? Specifically, the cost of practically any scroll is well under the minor item threshold, making it practically free. Moreover, since the scrolls can be accessed with a wish, archivists could access a fairly eclectic range of divine scrolls (you know, off-list stuff).

If you just want me to be reasonable about it, give me a general idea of what you would consider reasonable, and if you don't want to worry about an archivist with spells from five different spell lists then let me know and I'll avoid it entirely.

Finally, are there any prestige classes that I should avoid? The overall power level seems fairly high in here (as usual for Tome games) but I've been having some trouble with option overload and am trying to narrow down ideas.

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2013, 05:14:02 AM »
And all the normal chargen from FoPP, item rules, etc?  Are we on the Wish economy?
Yes, but for totally different reasons. :D

Planar Binding accesses the Wish economy via Efreets, right? My character can do that at our current level.

I wasn't planning to actually do it in game but it could serve as a pretext for our WE access if we needed one...

Spell list wise, I think the only limit was no bargain hunting (that is, no getting spells at artificially low levels via obscure lists like Trapsmith for lv1 Haste.)   


Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2013, 10:24:43 AM »
How are you handling scroll costs for purposes of having scribed additional spells into a spellbook? Specifically, the cost of practically any scroll is well under the minor item threshold, making it practically free. Moreover, since the scrolls can be accessed with a wish, archivists could access a fairly eclectic range of divine scrolls (you know, off-list stuff).

If you just want me to be reasonable about it, give me a general idea of what you would consider reasonable, and if you don't want to worry about an archivist with spells from five different spell lists then let me know and I'll avoid it entirely.

Finally, are there any prestige classes that I should avoid? The overall power level seems fairly high in here (as usual for Tome games) but I've been having some trouble with option overload and am trying to narrow down ideas.
I'm fine with you knowing just about any spells you want, in general. If it actually appears on a divine spell list, it should be available. Rare/special "tricks" like divine bards might not be, unless there is some plausible explanation that you want to write into your backstory (or for the Exiled group in general). Particularly broken things I might veto individually, like maybe that crazy Slime Wave spell from Masters of the Wild that does Con damage to an area, and does more to larger creatures... Things like Kelpstrand will have their DCs changed to the normal formula we're using for everything (10+1/2 ECL + casting stat), or will at least be modified to work like something more reasonable (like say Evard's Black Tentacles).

As far as power level, yeah, it's pretty high. So most likely anything will be OK. If you think it's pushing the limit, let me know what you're thinking before you sink too much effort into it. :)

And all the normal chargen from FoPP, item rules, etc?  Are we on the Wish economy?
Yes, but for totally different reasons. :D

Planar Binding accesses the Wish economy via Efreets, right? My character can do that at our current level.

I wasn't planning to actually do it in game but it could serve as a pretext for our WE access if we needed one...

Spell list wise, I think the only limit was no bargain hunting (that is, no getting spells at artificially low levels via obscure lists like Trapsmith for lv1 Haste.)   
Wish/item access will basically be via "DM fiat". You guys are the cream of the crop of "La Resistance", and they'll just supply you with what you need/request (within reason, i.e. according to the magic item chart :P ). I'd rather not actually do the cheesiness of chain-binding genies... even if it is theoretically possible.

I think I mentioned this, but I don't remember if I put it into the "official" rules, but access to the outer planes has been cut off for centuries. I think I'll say the Inner and Transitive Planes are still available, though (and any summoning spells will be bringing things from there, instead of the outer planes, but unchanged otherwise).
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2013, 11:50:50 AM »
Just realized, if I want a cohort I have to find a feat slot for it... Hm... :(
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Offline MetroMagic

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2013, 05:04:16 AM »
Phae - four topics for you! EDITED, oops, can't count at this hour.

Looking at items for Blisss, I run into this problem: His natural form is water, so with past DMs he held his items with his natural ability that has now been named Liquid Form, and simply merged them into himself. It's neither polymorph nor shapechange though it's like them; it's significantly more specific and limited in what shapes he can take, but more thorough and powerful in what happens when he takes a form. The most important difference, about this question, is: his magic items still work when merged. This is contrary to your general rules about polymorph, so the question is, do his magic items work?

I didn't have this in the writeup explicitly previously because it wasn't an issue for the DMs - for example Quillwraith was fine with it when I raised the question. Here is the writeup I added to the "One With Its Environment" ability that deals with the Liquid Form differences for Glaciadragons - seemed like the right place to put it:

"The Glaciadragon may hold its Magic Items by merging them using Liquid Form. For Glaciadragons, holding any Magic Item would be difficult, if not impossible, in their natural watery form, even more so if they change back and forth between forms as they do frequently. The Glaciadragon’s Magic Items retain their functions when merged into any form the Glaciadragon may take using Liquid Form provided that the particular function of the Magic Item is not dependent on its physical shape. Two examples: For a +1 sword with a function when held, the d6 die roll for slashing damage does not apply to attacks when the sword is merged, but the +1 and the held function apply. For a +1 Ghostward suit of armor, the AC bonus of the physical suit does not apply when merged, but the +1 and Ghostward do apply. Other items are decided on a case basis. Glaciadragons commonly use Liquid Form to change into their own form but with the Magic Item held by merging it."

Are you OK with this? Obviously, what I do about items depends a lot on how this will work.

I offered to Quillwraith that Blisss could have no magic items, and the same applies for your game - we'd work something else out. Or not... if he's underpowered for lack of items, so be it.

Next topic: I saw the "no off-brand spell lists to power up items with spells at lower levels than usual".

Blisss can learn spells from any list; what about learning spells from those lists to power up his slots? FYI, he can know 2 spells of 0-3 and 1 at 4th so his personal list is very small, though he can spam them every 5 minutes/encounter.

Before you decide I'll confess to the wild idea here: Greater Dispel from Trapsmith, plus Bottomless Metamagic, produces at-will Greater Dispel? It's an idea. Of course with the power level of some of the other characters in the party we may have something like this already, so maybe it's not a big deal.

I saw the No Flaws. In Blisss' most recent incarnation I took 2 Flaws and spent them on buying the 2 Feats needed for Cure Light Wounds at will. Why? Because the character would only learn and take healing spells otherwise, shutting down the whole Blue Mage flexibility thing - Blisss is just that kind of guy; he wouldn't let others die around him when he could save them just by only learning one type of spell. And the Flaws were flavorful.

The 2 Feats:
Attune Node, Improved Attune Node to Positive Plane Ability: Infusion, Cure Light Wounds at will as Swift Action (DC15, +4 1/2CL +2 Int = +6, or healing is halved)

The 2 Flaws:
Free Spirited Effective weight of gear is doubled, armor check penalties doubled/tripled swimming

Cute Things Lover WILL Save against cute creatures, DC 15 + the creature's CHA mod, or Fascinated for 1 round plus the creature's CHA mod

Are you OK with this?

While on this general subject, I had two traits; the one I would drop is this:

"Iron Liver
Benefit: Immune to alcohol's detrimental effects
Drawback: -1 on Fortitude saves against any other recreational drug
Blisss flavor: He stayed in the Inn for years, likes water, drank what liquids there were, didn’t know some had alcohol, didn’t notice. Other recreational drugs? Never met any, not interested. Alcohol isn’t a recreational drug for him anyway – for him, it’s pretty much just like water, does nothing whatsoever. Amusing roleplay."

Not a big deal to drop it, but it's flavorful, and seems like not a big deal to keep it. What do you think?



The whole Blue Mage thing was expanded by Blisss carrying a small library of spells on scrolls so he could un-learn a spell he knows, cast one on himself from a scroll and learn it thereby, use it for a while, and then switch back. He then re-writes the scrolls to keep the library replenished so he can switch what he knows in the future. Remember he can only know 9 spells total at any given time: 2 0, 2 1st, 2 2nd, 2 3rd, 1 4th so this was a way to expand his repertoire.

The way you play them, scrolls are used to transmit knowledge. Would they still work for him to learn simply by reading in lieu of a spell cast on himself, since that's in general how a Blue Mage learns them? Could he replace one spell with another by simply reading the scroll, and if so would the spell go away or would the scroll still be intact? That, of course, would give him a lot more flexibility to switch spells as desired.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 05:09:53 AM by MetroMagic »

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2013, 10:23:18 AM »
1) it's fine to have the items function as you suggested. although the spells are changed, some creature abilities will not be.

2) At will greater dispel is OK.

3) Your team can have unlimited low level wands, and Bliss can change his spells known easily. So I don't see this as a problem. So no, no flaws. Of course feel free to RP them if you want, but we won't enforce mechanical effects.

4) Sure, keep the trait.

5) Yes, he can keep scrolls to swap out spells known. They aren't consumed as they typically are in a "normal" game, either. They are mundane writings that impart magical knowledge. I have seen suggestions to make scrolls of 4th+ level above the wish economy, but haven't decided to implement that yet...
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2013, 10:58:52 AM »
Phae, how do you feel about this feat?  I'm not interested in the followers at this point.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2013, 11:20:56 AM »
Phae, how do you feel about this feat?  I'm not interested in the followers at this point.
I think it needs to be toned down...

This is kind of like a combination of the Summon Elemental reserve feat and Leadership. However, since you get to customize the creatures you summon, and they are more powerful, I think you should have to actually spend the spellslots, rather than just have them. To summon a creature using this, you'll have to spend spellslot of at least half their CR (rounded up), but it lasts indefinitely and dismissing them is a free action.

Due to the altered cosmology of this game, creatures from the outer planes won't generally be available, unless they could be plausibly found on the material, inner, or transitive planes. However, since we're not using LA, let's use either Oslecamo's monster classes, or CR in the case of where one doesn't exist (with adjustments to be made for problematic creatures as needed). For very low LA/CR creatures, like genasi, we might just use them as-is with no LA and no RHD.

Is this too much nerfing?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 11:30:59 AM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2013, 11:45:20 AM »
Phae, how do you feel about this feat?  I'm not interested in the followers at this point.
Yeah, I guess that would be OK... /sigh  :P

Since this is kind of like a combination of the Summon Elemental reserve feat and Leadership, let's just make it more explicitly like that. To summon a creature using this, you need to have an available spellslot of at least half their CR (rounded up).

Also, due to the altered cosmology of this game, creatures from the outer planes won't generally be available, unless they could be plausibly found on the material, inner, or transitive planes. However, since we're not using LA, let's use either Oslecamo's monster classes, or CR in the case of where one doesn't exist (with adjustments to be made for problematic creatures as needed).

Sound reasonable? It's still pretty nuts... It basically turns you into the Angel Summoner... for the price of a feat. :P I'm tempted to make you spend the spellslot used to summon your cohort... This is still a great feat, even with that "limitation"...

OK, so I'm not sure how this will work.  I can cast 5th-level spells, but I only know SM I and III.  I was going to build a specific cohort and then use the calling thing to keep us together if we get separated... I'm not trying to be the Angel Summoner (nor the BMX bandit), but I figured that feat was more interesting than taking 3.5 Leadership.  I was figuring to do an inner-planes planetouched of some kind, then straight into Powerbard.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: OOOOO OOOOO CCCCCC
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2013, 11:48:07 AM »
Phae, how do you feel about this feat?  I'm not interested in the followers at this point.
Yeah, I guess that would be OK... /sigh  :P

Since this is kind of like a combination of the Summon Elemental reserve feat and Leadership, let's just make it more explicitly like that. To summon a creature using this, you need to have an available spellslot of at least half their CR (rounded up).

Also, due to the altered cosmology of this game, creatures from the outer planes won't generally be available, unless they could be plausibly found on the material, inner, or transitive planes. However, since we're not using LA, let's use either Oslecamo's monster classes, or CR in the case of where one doesn't exist (with adjustments to be made for problematic creatures as needed).

Sound reasonable? It's still pretty nuts... It basically turns you into the Angel Summoner... for the price of a feat. :P I'm tempted to make you spend the spellslot used to summon your cohort... This is still a great feat, even with that "limitation"...

OK, so I'm not sure how this will work.  I can cast 5th-level spells, but I only know SM I and III.  I was going to build a specific cohort and then use the calling thing to keep us together if we get separated... I'm not trying to be the Angel Summoner (nor the BMX bandit), but I figured that feat was more interesting than taking 3.5 Leadership.  I was figuring to do an inner-planes planetouched of some kind, then straight into Powerbard.
I wasn't thinking you'd need to specifically know SM IV (or higher) to summon a CR 8 cohort (for example). Just burn a 4th level slot. So my idea is to basically make this more like the druid's spontaneous summoning + Leadership, rather than a reserve feat.

Edit: I guess given that you can get Greater Teleport at will for a feat, this isn't that bad, but it's still Leadership+, and Leadership is kind of at the top of the bar as far as feats go, IMO... although some Tome feats are probably equally powerful (ignoring the Tome undead creation feats, which are crazy).
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 11:59:36 AM by phaedrusxy »
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