Min/Max Boards
Handbooks & Resources => Handbook Discussion => Topic started by: Bastian on December 11, 2011, 04:36:17 PM
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This is a thread for discussing the The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1000.0). If you see anything that you want to comment on please reply here, or in the original thread if able.
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Another item that lets you trade gold for a crafting feat:
Forge of Thautam: only usable by dwarves, or with Use Magic Device DC 25 check to Emulate a Race; grants user Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat 15,000gp (Races of Stone)
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So, I don't know if you're including anything like builds, but my favorite cost-reduction abuse is to play a Binder 5/Ur-Priest 2/Divine-adapted Anima Mage X. Bind Astaroth for your item creation feats, and then use the Ur-Priest's K:R to get Dark Craft gold & XP for free. Then pump divine spells into items.
The most abuse I got out of this was to make a Thrallherd who had one of those as a Thrall.... and an endless supply of believers to sacrifice.
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for scrolls, the caster's shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#castersShield) is effectively (though not quite) a -50% to gp cost.
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Dunno if this counts, but there are a whole host of spells that do the same effects as +1 enhancements, and cost less to get as a continual item than getting a +1 at later levels.
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It's the Tower of Life, not Light. Minor quibble.
Further proof that Faerun favors Elves, Wizards, and Elf Wizards.
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for scrolls, the caster's shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#castersShield) is effectively (though not quite) a -50% to gp cost.
Added (and have added you to the "Thanks to" section).
Dunno if this counts, but there are a whole host of spells that do the same effects as +1 enhancements, and cost less to get as a continual item than getting a +1 at later levels.
The pricing guidelines for making items are just that guidelines, not rules and actually make note that things should be priced similar to items already available so they can't really be included. Sorry.
It's the Tower of Life, not Light. Minor quibble.
Further proof that Faerun favors Elves, Wizards, and Elf Wizards.
Fixed (and I have added you to the "Thanks to" section).
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Are you assuming that Magical Artisan from Forgotten Realms can only be applied on an item once? Based on my reading of it the benefit is an unnamed bonus that can be applied to any magic item creation feat, so should be able to stack if applied to all of the Eberron magical artisan feats, elemental binding, as well as the general feat that allows you to use your stat to set the items save.
Takes a lot of feats for this with diminishing returns after the first few though. I like using them with the Eberron feats.
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Are you assuming that Magical Artisan from Forgotten Realms can only be applied on an item once? Based on my reading of it the benefit is an unnamed bonus that can be applied to any magic item creation feat, so should be able to stack if applied to all of the Eberron magical artisan feats, elemental binding, as well as the general feat that allows you to use your stat to set the items save.
Takes a lot of feats for this with diminishing returns after the first few though. I like using them with the Eberron feats.
I know it can be used multiple times do to the stupidity of that stacking rules not covering feats, I just haven't found a way to incorporate it into the body of the article so currently it is in the to-be-incorporated section.
Edit: Added, though it is kind of awkwardly inserted right now.
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iirc - the Quickstart Artificer eventually focused on this thread.
The basic dirty Arty takes just these reducers ... and loves it.
Psi Arty waits until it gets PsyRef going, and then does this anyway.
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In the A&EG there's the hammer of the magesmith, which reduces the base cost of any weapon by 5%. Note that shields count as weapons since you can bash with them.
The Shield Dwarf Warder feat from Races of Faerun reduces the cost of magic arms and armor by a further 5%.
In Hyperconscious (written by Bruce Cordell, author of the XPH and the good parts of CPsi) there's the Craft Dreamgift feat, which allows you to make dreamstained items. If you don't mind taking Con damage every day and suffering nightmares every night, you can knock down the price of an item by 3/4, though it also knocks the caster level of the item down by half, making dispels a potential problem.
Words of Creation (from the BoED) boosts the caster level of items by +1 for free, which can be a huge reduction in cost for some high level items. See the psychoactive skin of proteus, for example.
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In the A&EG there's the hammer of the magesmith, which reduces the base cost of any weapon by 5%. Note that shields count as weapons since you can bash with them.
That's already in the guide except the bit about shields which I added (Nice idea).
The Shield Dwarf Warder feat from Races of Faerun reduces the cost of magic arms and armor by a further 5%.
Nice find (though I just looked it up and its magic shielsd and armor, not arms and armor). Added.
In Hyperconscious (written by Bruce Cordell, author of the XPH and the good parts of CPsi) there's the Craft Dreamgift feat, which allows you to make dreamstained items. If you don't mind taking Con damage every day and suffering nightmares every night, you can knock down the price of an item by 3/4, though it also knocks the caster level of the item down by half, making dispels a potential problem.
Sorry, but I'm not going to be adding third party material (no matter how well written that 3rd party material is).
Words of Creation (from the BoED) boosts the caster level of items by +1 for free, which can be a huge reduction in cost for some high level items. See the psychoactive skin of proteus, for example.
Already on the list. Though strangely enough it is in the requirements section even though it doesn't help meeting requirements, so I've moved it to gold (although technically it should have its own section). Thanks for pointing it out.
Edit: And I have added you to the "Thanks to" section.
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Also, anything that affects weapons, armors, and shields should reduce the costs of other things shunted onto them, such as magical traps. A touch-based automatic-reset trap of Chained Dispel Magic on the blade of a longsword, or a Mass Heal trap on the hilt counts as part of a weapon, so weapon-based reductions would of course reduce the cost. Could save a bundle if you swing it right. (Heh.)
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Also, anything that affects weapons, armors, and shields should reduce the costs of other things shunted onto them, such as magical traps. A touch-based automatic-reset trap of Chained Dispel Magic on the blade of a longsword, or a Mass Heal trap on the hilt counts as part of a weapon, so weapon-based reductions would of course reduce the cost. Could save a bundle if you swing it right. (Heh.)
Added, though I made a note that it really depends on the leniency of the DM.
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Is there anything resembling a standard Crafter build ?
Like not the Quickstart Arty, but rather
an Arcane and/or Divine full caster X ??
To get all those feats, requires something
like the 504 Feats True Dilettante build.
But a couple of the good abilities are class
based, that won't fit with Feats + Full casting.
:???
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Yes, the standard caster crafter build is Binder 5/Ur-Priest 2/Anima Mage 10. 9th-level cleric spells (including Miracle) and any crafting feat you want via Astaroth, plus the Knowledge: Religion and evil alignment you need to abuse Dark Craft gp and xp.
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How does that Binder/Ur-Priest/Anima Mage get L9 Cleric spells?
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Ur Priest? This is using the Divine-Adapted Anima Mage (I should have specified).
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If a certain weapon material has a price per pound (like Riverine) then making a smaller version of it and using the Sizing enhancement from MiC might save some money for larger characters. Combine it with Morphing for even more amusement.
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By "Elemental Whale," I think you mean an Elsewhale, a Gargantuan Elemental from Planar Handbook 117. (All the other Colossal candidate creatures I know of have too many HD even for greater planar binding! You'd need to use gate!) If you could somehow customize an Elsewhale to give it Hidden Talent: expansion and force it to use this before binding, you'd not need gate.
At this point it's DM fiat if you can do this.
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By "Elemental Whale," I think you mean an Elsewhale, a Gargantuan Elemental from Planar Handbook 117. (All the other Colossal candidate creatures I know of have too many HD even for greater planar binding! You'd need to use gate!) If you could somehow customize an Elsewhale to give it Hidden Talent: expansion and force it to use this before binding, you'd not need gate.
At this point it's DM fiat if you can do this.
I always thought elemental whales were normal whales from the Monster Manual, turned into elementals with one of those half-elemental or elemental creature templates.
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By "Elemental Whale," I think you mean an Elsewhale, a Gargantuan Elemental from Planar Handbook 117. (All the other Colossal candidate creatures I know of have too many HD even for greater planar binding! You'd need to use gate!) If you could somehow customize an Elsewhale to give it Hidden Talent: expansion and force it to use this before binding, you'd not need gate.
At this point it's DM fiat if you can do this.
I always thought elemental whales were normal whales from the Monster Manual, turned into elementals with one of those half-elemental or elemental creature templates.
Yep, specifically the Elemental Creature templates. I'll clarify the page number and link to the srd section on whales to make sure people understand that.
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In PHB2, there's a 1st level spell called "Transference" that lets you use other (willing) creatures' XP for crafting.
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On what page is this spell?
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Interesting. My big list of spells says Transference is in PHB2, but I can't find the spell in the book.
Turns out it's a "web enhancement" to PHB2. Magic Items: Transferring XP Costs (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a)
The web page lists the spell, a magic item, and a feat.
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btw, the item crafting cost basics are incorrect in the handbook. see quote below, and correction below that.
Cost to Craft (gp) = Market Price / 2
Cost to Craft (xp) = Market Price / 25
Time to Craft (in days) = Market Price / 1,000
Cost to craft (gp) = Base Price / 2
Cost to craft (xp) = Base Price / 25
Time to craft (in days) = Market Price / 1,000
Market Price = Base price + item cost (*if any) + spell xp cost (†if any)
* such as a weapon, armor or shield
† such as a ring of wishes
Note: for many items, the base price and the market price are the same, but not for all. and the rules for crafting specifically call out base price to calculate the gp and xp values rather than the market price. Also note that the cost and xp reduction feats from eberron also do the same...
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Further clarified the elemental whale issue.
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For the record, the cost for crafting large (barely) mobile objects, and large immobile objects is also missing from the handbook...
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Where can those be found again? If you mean the stronghold ones, I have included them.
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i did mean the sbg ones, i must have missed them, probably due to tiredness, on my last read through. my apologies.
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Enhance Item is where in the Epic Level Handbook?
ever see this spell (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a) ?
can you choose the XP transferred from sleeping/unconscious characters?
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Enhance Item is where in the Epic Level Handbook?
I don't have my copy with me but it should be on page 114.
ever see this spell (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a) ?
can you choose the XP transferred from sleeping/unconscious characters?
No since "the XP cost for creating a magic item can only be freely transferred in complete awareness of the consequences, which also necessitates a minimum Intelligence of 3." Thus they must be conscious.
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I only see that they need to agree w the item, and control the XP spent.
unconscious and sleeping creatures are considered willing.
just say to them... "say no if you don't want to spend your XP on this magic item"
they can make their listen check to wake up and spoil the spell
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I only see that they need to agree w the item, and control the XP spent.
unconscious and sleeping creatures are considered willing.
just say to them... "say no if you don't want to spend your XP on this magic item"
they can make their listen check to wake up and spoil the spell
The complete awareness part is the problem.
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Use a spell to visit their dreams and ask then.
I still don't see why you say 'complete awareness' because that's not in the description. All I see is they need to agree and choose how much XP.
my way of asking the unconscious person above works w the first part, but not for the second.
you could complete both of those this way....
"let's make this item, you need to supply all the XP. If you don't agree to help with this, you need to say no."
this is telling them what the item is, as needed. They need to say 'no' or something similar to stop the item idea. And they'd be providing all the XP.
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Use a spell to visit their dreams and ask then.
I still don't see why you say 'complete awareness' because that's not in the description. All I see is they need to agree and choose how much XP.
my way of asking the unconscious person above works w the first part, but not for the second.
you could complete both of those this way....
"let's make this item, you need to supply all the XP. If you don't agree to help with this, you need to say no."
this is telling them what the item is, as needed. They need to say 'no' or something similar to stop the item idea. And they'd be providing all the XP.
Please read the section of the article titled Requirements for Transferring XP (note these rules apply to all forms of XP transfer).
Also note that all the ways you have suggested so far violate the requirement that the action be done "freely" (as in of ones own free will).
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if they are unconscious, they can't say yes or no. there is no will or consciousness to make a judgement and decision.
just having a "status" of "willing" doesn't cut it.
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i did mean the sbg ones, i must have missed them, probably due to tiredness, on my last read through. my apologies.
Oh, whoops. I think I actually only included the ones for having a mobile stronghold since they are better than stationary stronghold benefits. And me without my books. *sigh*
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i did mean the sbg ones, i must have missed them, probably due to tiredness, on my last read through. my apologies.
Oh, whoops. I think I actually only included the ones for having a mobile stronghold since they are better than stationary stronghold benefits. And me without my books. *sigh*
well, technically, the mobility option on a stronghold does not affect the consideration as to whether an item is created with the "bulky but still technically mobile" cost or the "immobile" cost. if it is a permanent part of the stronghold's structure and cannot be removed from said stronghold without destroying it, then it is "immobile". (or maybe i just misunderstood what you meant. ^^ )
for example, i just finished crafting a folding boat as a mobile stronghold. due to the flexibility of the exact size and shape of a stronghold space (p.9 iirc), a folding boat (pinnace form) is still just within one strong hold space. enchant it with mord's capable caravel and you have an auto pilot, servants, sailors, and a fancy extradimensional space you can put other stronghold spaces in - and not have to pay for mobility on them.... on the higher level version, i added another casting of mord's mag mansion, and between the two i have crew space, cargo space, and pc space.
i added the predict weather and detect ship abilities, ie: radar. with the self-motility, submersible, burrowing, and flying option, even without wind it can move at 10mph in land, air, or sea. i also paid for some extra masts with sails for flying mode - mostly because it makes sense... and looks cooler. the protective enhancements work on anyone inside or on deck, it is made of livewood so it can self heal, it has nystul's on it to hide the magical effects, the hull is transparent (painted over to leave portholes), the space is fireproofed, and most of the enhancements work even in rowboat form, which is somewhat amusing (i can even pull a CJS at the pier to avoid paying the docking tax... ^^ ) . and it all folds up into a box when i need to walk away with it sneakily or not reveal my arrival/departure for some reason. as an added bonus, i can cast dispel magic on it to suppress its abilities during portal passages and the like.
i'm thinking my next enhancement will be the higher level terrain spell (phantasmal terrain? the one that lets you hide structures) on my boat... ie: cloaking shield. make it look like a cloud when flying, or a wave when sailing, or like a stream of water or lava when submerged or burrowing, respectively. won't hide the people, but they can't be on deck when submerged or burrowing, anyway. =D
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Copied from my post in Ask A Question...
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Slightly tangential, but Extraordinary Artisan (as well as Exceptional and Legendary) are [Item Creation] feats, and thereby legal targets for Magical Artisan, so MA applies to everything (because those three feats always apply).
Also, Bind Elemental requires a Khyber Shard per item, which costs between 4d4*75gp (average 750gp) and some higher amount (can't recall offhand) for larger ones, though you can make do with the ~750gp ones by jacking the DC of your CHA check up. You also need a second caster to use the Bind Elemental feat (who can also cast your decided binding spell, but doesn't need the Bind Elemental feat), and you need to make a CHA check like you were bargaining for a task with the elemental...
Depending on how reliable your Khyber Shard access / second caster access is, it might be worth it to switch out Bind Elemental For one of the other Artisan feats, and just attach Magical Artisan to that.
"
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Copied from my post in Ask A Question...
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Slightly tangential, but Extraordinary Artisan (as well as Exceptional and Legendary) are [Item Creation] feats, and thereby legal targets for Magical Artisan, so MA applies to everything (because those three feats always apply).
no it does not. if you reread the feat you will notice the part: "When determining your cost in XP and raw materials for creating items with this feat, multiply the base price by 75%".
the feats (extraordinary, exceptional, legendary) you are trying to target itself does not create an item, it merely adjusts the cost of of making a magic item with a different feat, so magical artisan cannot apply to it. you have to apply magical artisan to a feat which actually results in a magic item.
of course, i'm sure people will argue the raw and rai of the interpretation of the words, so... whatever the dm decides in their own game, ne?
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Was about to say the same
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Was about to say the same
you've been niji'd. :eh
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Hey I only took awhile to check into it, and saw yours before even typing
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Copied from my post in Ask A Question...
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Slightly tangential, but Extraordinary Artisan (as well as Exceptional and Legendary) are [Item Creation] feats, and thereby legal targets for Magical Artisan, so MA applies to everything (because those three feats always apply).
no it does not. if you reread the feat you will notice the part: "When determining your cost in XP and raw materials for creating items with this feat, multiply the base price by 75%".
the feats (extraordinary, exceptional, legendary) you are trying to target itself does not create an item, it merely adjusts the cost of of making a magic item with a different feat, so magical artisan cannot apply to it. you have to apply magical artisan to a feat which actually results in a magic item.
of course, i'm sure people will argue the raw and rai of the interpretation of the words, so... whatever the dm decides in their own game, ne?
That would be true if the highlighted part said something like 'using this feat to create an item.' Instead it using a more ambiguous form which can be interpreted to indicate that it can be used if you are applying the feat to an item creation process. I personally don't like the fact that this interpretation is valid but sadly it is.
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It is pretty hard to argue that the statement "I created my magic weapon with extraordinary artisan feat." is invalid.
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It is pretty hard to argue that the statement "I created my magic weapon with extraordinary artisan feat." is invalid.
conversely, it is pretty easy to argue that the extraordinary artisan feat does not create a magic item in and of itself.
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It is pretty hard to argue that the statement "I created my magic weapon with extraordinary artisan feat." is invalid.
conversely, it is pretty easy to argue that the extraordinary artisan feat does not create a magic item in and of itself.
And it doesn't need to as that isn't what the requirement is as I pointed out in my previous post.
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It is pretty hard to argue that the statement "I created my magic weapon with extraordinary artisan feat." is invalid.
conversely, it is pretty easy to argue that the extraordinary artisan feat does not create a magic item in and of itself.
And it doesn't need to as that isn't what the requirement is as I pointed out in my previous post.
i did understand that point. i guess i'm just disagreeing with that as the correct RAI. nonetheless, it certainly could be interpreted that way. ^^
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:eh
but you could also argue that it doesn't help at all, since you can't create items with specifically the chosen feat (exceptional, extraordinary, or legendary artisan), and a total waste of a feat.
find an item that has one of those three feats as its prereq? i really really doubt there is one out there
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-shrug- I was pointing out you can appear to do it by RAW (the interpretation held by Forumowicz), but it doesn't really matter.
Honestly, though, what sane DM would let you get to a 3% craft cost, anyways, in a real game? :P
I guess if you're going high-op, but nevermind. It was my interpretation, doesn't particularly matter. However, I now did the math!
Without Bind Elemental (and assuming Magical Artisan is on something else), you're at a little over 4.7% of base price.
With Bind Elemental (assuming you found a khyber shard, made your check, and bound a Colossal elemental), you're at a bit over 3.8% of the base price.
The difference there is about 0.9%, so you have to be able to get a Khyber shard for less than 0.9% of the item's base price in order to make Bind Elemental worth it (this part was my main point anyways, not Magical Artisan), which means that at the average market price of 750gp, it's only worth it for items over 83,333.33 (infinite repeating) gp in base price.
Unless someone has a cheaper and easier way to get Khyber Shards? (Not all campaign worlds can just hop into the Dragon Below, let alone having that be practical every time you want to make an item)
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It is pretty hard to argue that the statement "I created my magic weapon with extraordinary artisan feat." is invalid.
conversely, it is pretty easy to argue that the extraordinary artisan feat does not create a magic item in and of itself.
And it doesn't need to as that isn't what the requirement is as I pointed out in my previous post.
i did understand that point. i guess i'm just disagreeing with that as the correct RAI. nonetheless, it certainly could be interpreted that way. ^^
I figured as such, I however was arguing only RAW. As I said, I don't like trick but it is possible given how the rule was written.
:eh
but you could also argue that it doesn't help at all, since you can't create items with specifically the chosen feat (exceptional, extraordinary, or legendary artisan), and a total waste of a feat.
find an item that has one of those three feats as its prereq? i really really doubt there is one out there
Having the feat as a prereq to the item creation, only creating the item with that feat, specifically using the feat to create the item, and so on are entirely different requirements than what is actually written there.
All it says is "creating items with this feat" which is a rather ambiguous phrase, and if you look up the definition of the word 'with', you will find that among the multitude of definitions two are really relevant. Either you use the feat to create the item or the creation of the item needs to only include the feat. Either interpretation works for RAW, while the first is much more reasonable rule wise, it is not favored one way or the other from an English perspective.
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I'd like to point out another way to get (nearly) unlimited crafting xp by using planar binding. The Kocrachon from Book of Vile Darkness has Liquid Pain as an SLA at will. The feat (which would be a perfect fit for the missing feat of the monster, if not, there's always PsyRef) Supernatural Transformation reduces the casting time of an SLA to a standard action (following standard Supernatural Ability rules). The Orthon from Fiendish Codex II is in constant pain and a perfect subject for the ability. If you can make the fairly reasonable charisma checks, this is a substantially lower cost method of generating liquid pain than the current one. It isn't quite as cheap as the Level Drain method but it does allow you to craft in the middle of a level. It also is more likely to be allowed than spell traps of non-offensive spells (that way lies tippyverse). Total cost before reduction assuming you use scrolls is 2,225 GP and requires you to be level 5, assuming you use the spells off the Demonologist's list. It also uses lesser devil labor, which is generally considered your best bet when dealing with evil outsiders. Something to consider at least.
Anyone have any improvements or ideas?
EDIT: Cost is 2,630 GP before crafting, assuming you have to hire a psion to PsyRef the Kocrachon for 405 GP.
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I'd like to point out another way to get (nearly) unlimited crafting xp by using planar binding. The Kocrachon from Book of Vile Darkness has Liquid Pain as an SLA at will. The feat (which would be a perfect fit for the missing feat of the monster, if not, there's always PsyRef) Supernatural Transformation reduces the casting time of an SLA to a standard action (following standard Supernatural Ability rules). The Orthon from Fiendish Codex II is in constant pain and a perfect subject for the ability. If you can make the fairly reasonable charisma checks, this is a substantially lower cost method of generating liquid pain than the current one. It isn't quite as cheap as the Level Drain method but it does allow you to craft in the middle of a level. It also is more likely to be allowed than spell traps of non-offensive spells (that way lies tippyverse). Total cost before reduction assuming you use scrolls is 2,225 GP and requires you to be level 5, assuming you use the spells off the Demonologist's list. It also uses lesser devil labor, which is generally considered your best bet when dealing with evil outsiders. Something to consider at least.
Anyone have any improvements or ideas?
EDIT: Cost is 2,630 GP before crafting, assuming you have to hire a psion to PsyRef the Kocrachon for 405 GP.
While using Supernatural Transformation the Kocrachon's SLA is a good idea, using the Orthon will not really help you all that much. It is not hard to put someone in pain and no matter how you do so the subject can only produce as much liquid pain as it has points of constitution.
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I'd like to point out another way to get (nearly) unlimited crafting xp by using planar binding. The Kocrachon from Book of Vile Darkness has Liquid Pain as an SLA at will. The feat (which would be a perfect fit for the missing feat of the monster, if not, there's always PsyRef) Supernatural Transformation reduces the casting time of an SLA to a standard action (following standard Supernatural Ability rules). The Orthon from Fiendish Codex II is in constant pain and a perfect subject for the ability. If you can make the fairly reasonable charisma checks, this is a substantially lower cost method of generating liquid pain than the current one. It isn't quite as cheap as the Level Drain method but it does allow you to craft in the middle of a level. It also is more likely to be allowed than spell traps of non-offensive spells (that way lies tippyverse). Total cost before reduction assuming you use scrolls is 2,225 GP and requires you to be level 5, assuming you use the spells off the Demonologist's list. It also uses lesser devil labor, which is generally considered your best bet when dealing with evil outsiders. Something to consider at least.
Anyone have any improvements or ideas?
EDIT: Cost is 2,630 GP before crafting, assuming you have to hire a psion to PsyRef the Kocrachon for 405 GP.
While using Supernatural Transformation the Kocrachon's SLA is a good idea, using the Orthon will not really help you all that much. It is not hard to put someone in pain and no matter how you do so the subject can only produce as much liquid pain as it has points of constitution.
Damn, that's a real shame. At the very least you get easy access to Standard action liquid pain though. Just getting the Kocrachon and Supernatural Transformation is cheaper than a Magic Trap of Cure Light Wounds and a Magical Trap of Liquid Pain though. So it would still be a nice addition in any of the lawful evil hospital schemes. Just keep the room in magical darkness if the fact it's a devil becomes a problem.
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I'm not seeing Forge Ring under crafting feats and you list it as "create ring" under Midguard dwarves in the same section.
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Dunno if this counts, but there are a whole host of spells that do the same effects as +1 enhancements, and cost less to get as a continual item than getting a +1 at later levels.
The pricing guidelines for making items are just that guidelines, not rules and actually make note that things should be priced similar to items already available so they can't really be included. Sorry.
Sort of a problem when those items have different effective costs based on what you apply them to. If I have a +1 weapon, and an item that grants Flaming to a weapon I wield, then it would have a different effective cost than a +4 weapon and that item. This makes the spell-based version significantly different from the Weapon Enhancements they are based off of.
Looking at it like a wand: Does a Blades of Fire (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/blades-of-fire--3887/) wand cost more to craft if you use it on a +5 weapon than it does on a +1 weapon?
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Ancestral weapon/relic eliminates xp cost for sacrifice. Can still use most gp reducers, especially kaorti craft to give yourself an xp cost.
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I know this thread hasnt been posted in for a while but I would like to suggest a cheaper alternative to the whole liquid ambrosia approach by way of a psionic boon trap.
I bring to you The Pleasure Machine:
Inflict Pain is a 2nd level psion/wilder power and functions identically to the Symbol of Pain spell with some small differences. It lasts 1 round/level instead of 10 minutes/level and it is a lower level power in comparison. This all ends up being a very good thing, both for the person stuck in the machine and for crafting purposes.
Symbol of Pain lasts for a minimum of 90 minutes, that's a -long- time. Inflict Pain lasts for a minimum of 3 rounds, much safer to use in case the individual wants to eventually leave it (though why they'd want to is be beyond anyone's understanding). Secondly Inflict Pain is much easier to resist, meaning once a person is 'done' with the machine, they can mentally resist its effects (though its only partially resisted). This makes Inflict Pain just much more convenient and safer to use all around, especially if these pleasure machines are going to play an important role in your character achieving his/her goals.
Psionic auto-resetting traps cost 250gp*(power point cost)*(power point cost+2).
Inflict Pain costs 3 power, thus the cost of a Psionic auto-resetting trap of Inflict Pain would cost 3750gp by itself. This is so much cheaper than an arcane version it aint even funny. Nevermind the fact that you could use metapsionics to link it to other powers too, but this is ill advised. The cost for psionic traps scales exponentially, so its best to combine multiple traps into one area than multiple powers into one trap.
I've taken this a step further, but it also requires some things that others might constitute as cheese, but i'll explain it anyway in case it interests anyone:
In my case, by way of the thrallherd (which includes things like the Chameleon Crafting feat, southern magician, etc. and me being a spell to power erudite, i've gotten my hands on an arcane version of Lesser Restoration and have included it into the Inflict Pain trap. This way the individual doesn't get exhausted/fatigued/killed from the endless pleasure they'll be feeling with nipple clamps. This turns the aforementioned 6k psionic boon trap into an 8,000gp psionic boon trap that triggers both Inflict Pain + Lesser Restoration (paladin version since it is lvl1).
I have also created a second psionic boon trap in the same vicinity to include Grease linked to Distilled Joy via the same method, with Synesthete again as the trigger. In total it costs 15,000gp for the second trap, but its a hell of a lot cheaper than a spell clock and you get exponentially more ambrosia out of it than a spell clock could ever hope to give you. This happens if you agree with the idea that regardless of how long it takes for a spell to go off normally, it still goes off in the following round due to it being linked to the first. Thus, Distilled Joy's casting time of 1 day turns into 1 standard action simply because its being forced to go off in the following round.
Using 1 trap to pull this off, it would cost a total of 45,000 gp
Using 2 traps to pull this off, it would cost a total of 23,000 gp
Using 3 traps to pull this off, it would cost a total of 3750+750+15000 = 19,500 gp (cheapest possible)
In total, it will cost 19,500 gp to create a 'pleasure machine' like this, not including crafting cost reduction feats or additional materials (such as the actual device you're attaching these traps to). I feel this method is far easier to achieve than the one listed in the guide and so much more economically friendly. :)
Edit: cause i fail at math
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[This Tower]'s link is broken. Same with all links to the WotC pre-5E release.
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Honestly, though, what sane DM would let you get to a 3% craft cost, anyways, in a real game?
The kind that allows custom item sidebars. Otherwise, you can go from a "normal" one feat cost of the 30%s to the 10%s after sinking lots and lots of resources into it.
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To gain the reduce price, the feat must be involved in the creation process; ergo you are crafting an item "with the feat" in much the same manner as you would say, craft a sword "with the anvil"; it may not be the hammer, the steel or the fire, but it is directly involved in the creation process.
Here's one. Region of Dream flowing time trait prevents the gain or loss of exp while affected by it, Manifest zone, psionic allows you to link a manifest field.
Profit?
Related to that, a Stronghold space with the spell "Dream Travel" feature instead of teleport, would net you an extra 14.75 hours a day in work time. (or more with uses per day) [Note Dream Travel has a little note at the end that nullifies the consumable restriction of the time trait.)
(which is close to a 62% reduction in objective time)
Related planar stupidity
Take a squirrel, give it a little pouch with something valuable and or rare. Make sure it's unconscious.
Get naked (this is important)
Send the Squirrel into the mirror using Mirror Walking
Enter the Mirror realm (still naked)
Have your assistant enter with the items you need (a cage and your gear with preferably with some sort of fast equip or a summons spell)
He gives them to you, then returns.
At this point, in your mirror realm there are 2 Squirrels, 2 Pouches, 1 naked you, and 1 equipped you (as the mirror friends stuff vanished when he left.)
Steal the original squirrels pouch
Murder your naked self.
Place the put the doppel squirrel in with the original and fix whatever condition renders the doppel unconscious.
Let nature take its course.
Leave with both pouches 1 dead squirrel and 1 mirror squirrel.
Petrify or stasis the squirrel when you get back.
Yes this cost you roughly 3 ea. lvl 5 spell slots, but it lets you copy any object, including artifacts at level 9 so it's probably worth it.
You should now have 2x whatever you needed copied, as long as no one kills the Squirrel or Breaks the Statue.
You could also glue a Box to a turtle, why not.
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Here's one. Region of Dream flowing time trait prevents the gain or loss of exp while affected by it, Manifest zone, psionic allows you to link a manifest field.
Profit?
wouldn't that just prevent you from creating the item, as you can't lose xp, so the item can't gain it via the crafting process. as in auto-crafting-fail?
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The spell doesn't have that limitation, but if i remember right, the better thing to do is use Anchor Plane to attach the plane of dreams Morphic Trait. Which grants you a near limitless supply of materials (since the morphic trait isn't limited like the time trait), almost like a true creation at will.
Now i have to wonder, if you are inside the zone with the time trait that protects xp loss, and you cast a spell that consumes xp that affects someone outside the zone, how does that play out.
And a slightly less rambling point addressing Magical Artisan and the "x" Artisan Feats.
There actually is a pretty clear cut example of how that class of feats works in the Sharn, City of Towers book
The Improved Flight Item [Item creation] Feat does not in and of itself create items (per se) but as seen in the example items (Soarsled, Flying Buttress) that use the feat to gain its benefits, it is added to the prerequisites of the item. Which according to the DMG makes it a required part of the item creation process.
::shrugs::
Bored late night dredging
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For the record, I'm not okay with custom item
sidebarsanything. Also Endaire is right that the whales are too high HD by the time they become colossal. It took a while, but there is an animal that works! Also the MoE page number is 13, and it requires another caster who can (greater) planar bind.
I'd like to also disagree about the stacking rules. I take the word "modifier" a bit literally in that the cost reductions are all modifiers. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm mentions modifiers not stacking. Otherwise, if you had the feats, you could start throwing MA on everything and squeeze even more savings.
Artificer's dump is page 36 Khyber Shard per item, which costs between 4d4*75gp (average 750gp)
MoE19
So what happens if the shard is destroyed once the item is made? Is the shard always inside the item? Can it be targeted separately if it isn't?
EDIT: Actually, where does it say we can use elemental binding on items that don't require the elemental binding feat? Is there an example of a large elemental getting put into a regular +1 darkwood buckler or something?
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Suspiciously timed update eh Plz? :P
On topic: the news about non-crafting ICFs being usable with the artisan feat is great! As for the bind elemental thing...The feat doesn't specify what kind of magic items it has to be used for. One could make the argument that it's an optional component t when crafting some things (just like the flight improvement) and a required component for items like airships that specifically require them.
As for custom items...I fully support very simple ones that are slightly modified versions of existing items (slot changes, upgrading items that have non-bonus abilities like the casting glove's ability to cast a wand from it. I would definitely pay 150% to put an extra wand in there.)
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I'd like to also disagree about the stacking rules. I take the word "modifier" a bit literally in that the cost reductions are all modifiers. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm mentions modifiers not stacking. Otherwise, if you had the feats, you could start throwing MA on everything and squeeze even more savings.
I think the standard counterpoint to that is that pulling from the same source you linked
Modifiers
A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty.
Multiplying
Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3).
When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal. Similarly, a blinded creature attempting to negotiate difficult terrain would count each square as 4 squares (doubling the cost twice, for a total multiplier of ×4), rather than as 3 squares (adding 100% twice).
there is an upper limit that can be reached (its really really low) where more savings are outweighed by the benefits of more feats. (although with ritual of transference, you can actually buy feat slots at the low cost of 1k apiece)
And i believe in answer to the question about the shard, the Explorers handbook explicitly mentions the Dragonshard by name as a piece of the airship Breaking the Dragonshard: Shattering the Khyber dragonshard that binds it can free an elemental, but it is a diffi cult task. On the elemental vessels used by House Lyrandar, the shard is sealed in a protective box, often guarded with glyphs of warding or other magic traps, and in turn protected within a special housing chamber. The shard itself is around 6 inches in diameter and 12 inches long, has 90 hit points, and is enhanced with a hardening spell cast by the gnomes who built the ship that gives it hardness 16. Wary ship owners often invest in additional protections as well
which certainly implies that dragonshards are "load bearing structures" in magic items, and that you could "target the weak point"
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Suspiciously timed update eh Plz? :P
Definitely. When I go though something for a build of mine and consult the handbook, I bring up whatever I've looked at closely if I think it will help clarify the handbook.
One could make the argument that it's an optional component t when crafting some things (just like the flight improvement) and a required component for items like airships that specifically require them.
I was hoping for more of a rules quote beyond the 'adding a shard reduces cost of an item by 10% per size of elemental bound.' Preferably, something that said, "you can use elemental binding on magic items that don't require the bind elemental feat."
I think the standard counterpoint to that is that pulling from the same source you linked
That makes sense, although it does not persuade me. Modifiers can still be other things because the quote doesn't say "a modifier is only"
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That makes sense, although it does not persuade me. Modifiers can still be other things because the quote doesn't say "a modifier is only"
Lets Explore that.
The essential thrust of this argument is that although the rules have defined what something is, you contend that because they have not defined what something is not you are free to add any possible arrangement of features to the above listing of what the item is. squares/Rectangles or Cats/Socrates take your pick of examples.
Now,
modifier: Any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty. Modifiers from the same source do not stack, and modifiers with specific descriptors generally do not stack with others of the same type. If more than one modifier of a type is present, only the best bonus or worst penalty in that grouping applies. Bonuses or penalties that do not have descriptors stack with those that do.
Ok, so now we need to define bonus or penalty. Bonus is described below, while penalty is defined as a negative bonus above.
bonus: A positive modifier to a die roll. In most cases, multiple bonuses from the same source or of the same type in effect on the same character or object do not stack; only the highest bonus of that type applies. Bonuses that don’t have a specific type always stack with all bonuses.
The section linked to in the d20 site, is from the start of the book, however the above quote is from the glossary section of the phb.
All of which is a moot point, as cost reductions are not modifiers (note; by definition, modifiers must be applied to dice rolls) Cost reductions are multipliers which have a section in the phb devoted to explaining how to handle them; below i've quoted and reproduced the relevant section with the page reference.
When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal. Similarly, a blinded creature attempting to negotiate difficult terrain would count each square as 4 squares (doubling the cost twice, for a total multiplier of ×4), rather than as 3 squares (adding 100% twice).
This is why when you add up the cost reductions you don't simply sum up the values, but instead apply them as you would in a normal mathematical problem, so ("x")*.75*.75 is [.5625x] rather than .5x
And to forestall the inevitable, note the difference in phrases between the example real world multiplier and the definition of multiplier
"such as"
We can use such as to introduce an example or examples of something we mention. We normally use a comma before such as when we present a list of examples. Where there is just one example, we don’t need a comma:
The shop specialises in tropical fruits, such as pineapples, mangoes and papayas. (… for example, pineapples, mangoes and papayas.)
Countries such as Sweden have a long record of welcoming refugees from all over the world.
Such as is similar to like for introducing examples, but it is more formal, and is used more in writing than like:
She has worked in several countries where English is spoken as a first language, such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada and so on. (or, less formal, … like Australia, New Zealand, Canada and so on.)
"is"
"he/she/it form of be"
Be - "used to say something about a person, thing, or state, to show a permanent or temporary quality, state, job, etc.: "
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Uh. Loki, I appreciate the detail but I understand why we use multipliers in a mathematical way (which is what half your quotes concern). Trust me. I'm very familiar with this handbook. But trying to tie the handling of its maths doesn't completely take care of my position that stacking MA is cheesy.
I was merely saying that I would find it hard to convince a neutral DM not to use the standard English meaning of modifier (which allows for the 'no stacking MA' position due to normal stacking limitations) and instead use the modifier glossary entry formalism (which overrides the english meaning and substitutes it with the dice-rolling bonus xor penalty definition to allow the MA stacking position).
In fact GitP has a humorous thread on taking DnD terms too far by answering philosophical questions with rules quotes.
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May we get working links in his handbook? I don't know what 'This Obelisk' means.
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May we get working links in his handbook? I don't know what 'This Obelisk' means.
The wayback machine is your friend. (https://web.archive.org/web/20071217134051/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070812a&page=4)
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May we get working links in his handbook? I don't know what 'This Obelisk' means.
The wayback machine is your friend. (https://web.archive.org/web/20071217134051/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070812a&page=4)
oh, the obelisk is a greyhawk specific means that one famous npc used to bump himself over the epic/divine level power threshold.
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just noticed that the handbook doesn't have the formula for the extra discount for crafting an item as a piece of architecture from the stronghold builder's guidebook.
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May we get working links in his handbook? I don't know what 'This Obelisk' means.
The wayback machine is your friend. (https://web.archive.org/web/20071217134051/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070812a&page=4)
Even Better, just adding 'archive' in place of the 'www' in many wizards.com addresses fixes most of the links. Like so:
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070812a&page=4 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070812a&page=4)
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What Obelisk is this and what's the proper link to access it?
Thankee!
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What Obelisk is this and what's the proper link to access it?
Thankee!
It's in the wayback machine link on this page of the thread.
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What Obelisk is this and what's the proper link to access it?
Thankee!
It's in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk.
Nytemare3701 posted the link: https://web.archive.org/web/20071217134051/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070812a&page=4
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What Obelisk is this and what's the proper link to access it?
Thankee!
See also:
DRG#294 p.93
DRG#299 p.103
WGR1 pages 2, 36, 66, 67, 68 (Greyhawk Ruins)