Min/Max Boards
Gaming Discussion => D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder => Min/Max 3.x => Topic started by: Ryabede on December 28, 2015, 06:45:18 PM
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I'm sure there are ways to do this, but I'm curious how many.
excluding dragonwraught, anyone have ideas?
~specifically spells~
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None that are legal... all methods that would allow it involve misreading or ignoring rules... you must be Epic Level before you can cast Epic spells, period... including with dragonwrought.
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None that are legal... all methods that would allow it involve misreading or ignoring rules... you must be Epic Level before you can cast Epic spells, period... including with dragonwrought.
Well, that's not entirely true...Dusk Giants can exceed 20 HD, and it's easy enough to turn into one as an Incantatrix or Red Wizard >.>
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There are only two ways to obtain Epic feats
Acquiring Epic Feats
Characters gain epic feats in the following ways:
At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.
Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class.
So you have to be 21st level or use Epic Progressions.
And in order to use Epic Progressions
Epic Level Basics
Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters. While epic characters continue to receive most of the benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains. A class can be advanced beyond 20th level. A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level.
You need to technically be higher than the 20th level since even if it granted a Bonus Feat at the next level you'd still be 21. All through to be fair, the game doesn't really say you are to stop at the 20th level so there really isn't anything stopping you. Just take your 21st level.
Epic is an arbitrarily cut off point because most forum members cannot approach the topic of Epic Spells without devolving into a pissing contest through I think there are a few people here that could rationally help you out if you wanted.
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There are only two ways to obtain Epic feats
Acquiring Epic Feats
Characters gain epic feats in the following ways:
At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.
Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class.
So you have to be 21st level or use Epic Progressions.
And in order to use Epic Progressions
Epic Level Basics
Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters. While epic characters continue to receive most of the benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains. A class can be advanced beyond 20th level. A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level.
You need to technically be higher than the 20th level since even if it granted a Bonus Feat at the next level you'd still be 21. All through to be fair, the game doesn't really say you are to stop at the 20th level so there really isn't anything stopping you. Just take your 21st level.
Epic is an arbitrarily cut off point because most forum members cannot approach the topic of Epic Spells without devolving into a pissing contest through I think there are a few people here that could rationally help you out if you wanted.
Note the bolded - I'm sure Sor0 and myself (and likely Phaedrus) could bust out a mythal with the best of them (one to rival Jaerom Darkwind's even), though fair warning - while rational, SANE is completely out the moment you invoke the magical M word.
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Gate in an Elder Titan, and have it cast Epic spells for you. All you need is 9th level spells and CL shenanigans.
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None that are legal... all methods that would allow it involve misreading or ignoring rules... you must be Epic Level before you can cast Epic spells, period... including with dragonwrought.
How do you figure?
EPIC FEATS
These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels. A selection of epic feats appropriate for dragons is presented here. See the Epic Level Handbook for more epic feats.
You don't have to be a True Dragon, and "old age" is an age category for everyone regardless of whether you believe the 12 age categories for Kobolds printed in Races of the Dragon are fluff or crunch.
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None that are legal... all methods that would allow it involve misreading or ignoring rules... you must be Epic Level before you can cast Epic spells, period... including with dragonwrought.
How do you figure?
EPIC FEATS
These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels. A selection of epic feats appropriate for dragons is presented here. See the Epic Level Handbook for more epic feats.
You don't have to be a True Dragon, and "old age" is an age category for everyone regardless of whether you believe the 12 age categories for Kobolds printed in Races of the Dragon are fluff or crunch.
How do I figure? The epic feats rules state it plane as day... "available to characters of 21st level or higher" epic spells require the Epic Spellcasting feat to cast... so even as a Dragonwrought Kobold until your level 21 you can't cast epic spells without breaking rules...
Sure you could summon something that can cast them for you... but that's not really you casting epic spells... and more than likely your DM is going to determine what spells the summoned entity is capable of casting... If your DM doesn't want your summoned entity to cast epic spells they may very well tell you "it doesn't have the feat" and who would you be to argue?
If you want to cast epic spells you have to be lvl 21 or higher.
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None that are legal... all methods that would allow it involve misreading or ignoring rules... you must be Epic Level before you can cast Epic spells, period... including with dragonwrought.
How do you figure?
EPIC FEATS
These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels. A selection of epic feats appropriate for dragons is presented here. See the Epic Level Handbook for more epic feats.
You don't have to be a True Dragon, and "old age" is an age category for everyone regardless of whether you believe the 12 age categories for Kobolds printed in Races of the Dragon are fluff or crunch.
How do I figure? The epic feats rules state it plane as day... "available to characters of 21st level or higher" epic spells require the Epic Spellcasting feat to cast... so even as a Dragonwrought Kobold until your level 21 you can't cast epic spells without breaking rules...
Sure you could summon something that can cast them for you... but that's not really you casting epic spells... and more than likely your DM is going to determine what spells the summoned entity is capable of casting... If your DM doesn't want your summoned entity to cast epic spells they may very well tell you "it doesn't have the feat" and who would you be to argue?
If you want to cast epic spells you have to be lvl 21 or higher.
Limited Wish/PsyRef/Reality Revision/et. al. Fuck your feats, Mr. Titan :)
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None that are legal... all methods that would allow it involve misreading or ignoring rules... you must be Epic Level before you can cast Epic spells, period... including with dragonwrought.
How do you figure?
EPIC FEATS
These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels. A selection of epic feats appropriate for dragons is presented here. See the Epic Level Handbook for more epic feats.
You don't have to be a True Dragon, and "old age" is an age category for everyone regardless of whether you believe the 12 age categories for Kobolds printed in Races of the Dragon are fluff or crunch.
How do I figure? The epic feats rules state it plane as day... "available to characters of 21st level or higher" epic spells require the Epic Spellcasting feat to cast... so even as a Dragonwrought Kobold until your level 21 you can't cast epic spells without breaking rules...
If you want to cast epic spells you have to be lvl 21 or higher.
The very next sentence says "Dragons of at least old age can also choose these feats, even if they have no class levels." So if you're a Dragon, and you're at least Old age, then you can choose epic feats.
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Minor nitpick, I always choose Epic Spellcasting with every level I take.
Unfortunately what I choose and what I get (and can use) are not always the same thing. :P
And the specific requirements of the Feats still hold priority over any general rule that determines availability anyway.
So... Now that you've lost your RAW argument do you think you stand a chance in hell winning a more intent based one?
Like I got one, prove when it said "dragons" is explicitly meant the mechanical Dragon Type. :cool
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Note that while being a Dragon will let you get access to Epic feats, you still need to meet the other requirements.
In particular, for "Epic Spellcasting" you need a skill at 24 ranks and 9th level spells. Lots of ways to get fast access to 9th level spells, but for skill ranks, I can think of only 2:
1. "Primary Contact" from cityscape, which will give 1 extra rank and costs 2 feats.
2. Bloodlines - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm
For example, a loredrake dragonwrought kobold with 5 levels of bloodlines can take epic spellcasting at 16th level.
Best,
David
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Note that while being a Dragon will let you get access to Epic feats, you still need to meet the other requirements.
In particular, for "Epic Spellcasting" you need a skill at 24 ranks and 9th level spells. Lots of ways to get fast access to 9th level spells, but for skill ranks, I can think of only 2:
1. "Primary Contact" from cityscape, which will give 1 extra rank and costs 2 feats.
2. Bloodlines - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm
For example, a loredrake dragonwrought kobold with 5 levels of bloodlines can take epic spellcasting at 16th level.
Best,
David
The hungry hungry hippo dusk giant method works without bringing the dragonwrought kobold argument into the equation, and with a couple PAOs is completely RAW legal, if REALLY cheesy (like, I won't touch it...and I'm one of the worst offenders on here).
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And the specific requirements of the Feats still hold priority over any general rule that determines availability anyway.
Well, yes. The prerequisites of the epic feat in question still apply. My objection was to the notion that you must be level 21 to take epic feats in all cases.
But, if you find some way to get more skill ranks than normal for your level (such as by one of the means already mentioned), and can cast 9th level spells (such as by being a level 18 sorcerer), then any dragon can take Epic Spellcasting, whether it has 21 character levels or not.
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wait-a-minute ... you ... you mean to tell me ... what :??? the what ?!
So that whole Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons thing,
was just an extended smokescreen coverstory, for the 2*secret
probation actual story: Dragons are Dragons, therefore Epic Feats !!
And this campaign was held from '06 to now ...
That's wow :fu quite a feat, and truly epic 10 years of trolling.
:)
Well done sirs :clap
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then any dragon can take Epic Spellcasting, whether it has 21 character levels or not.
Except the authors were not utter morons. The book takes a moment to specifically bring up how the term dragon can encompass a lot of creatures, but the book primarily uses in reference to the ten, and it even gos so far as to specifically name each one that makes up the total of ten because they really did try to phrase things like they were explaining it to a 9 year old child, True Dragons in the MM.
So you cannot ASSume anything, and while I can hammer on your stupid interpretation all day long the fact of the matter is you have to prove that every entry in question that you'd wish to use is specifically talking about the Dragon Type otherwise the statement only applies to the 10 TDs in the MM1. And if you can't, you failed and are wrong and it's as simple as that. Admitting to the failure of course is another story...
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the fact of the matter is you have to prove that every entry in question that you'd wish to use is specifically talking about the Dragon Type
No. See, the thing is there can be multiple valid interpretations, all of which are correct. The idea that within the context of Draconomicon, "dragon" always refers to "True Dragon" is one such interpretation. But the notion that, in this specific instance, "dragon" refers to any creature with the dragon type is also valid.
You're "ASSuming" the sidebar on page 4 means the book uses "dragon" and "True Dragon" interchangeably unless otherwise noted. What it actually says is "For the most part, this book concerns itself with the ten varieties of true dragon described in the Monster Manual." It is a statement about the topic of the book - and not a very accurate one at that, considering that of the roughly 300 pages the book has, only half of them are talking exclusively about the MM 10. It does not carry the implication that you think it does.
Again, my intent isn't to prove that my interpretation is the only correct one, but to show that it could be a correct one. If you can prove that it is incorrect, be my guest! But a line saying "hey, this book is mostly talking about the True Dragons from the Monster Manual" doesn't necessarily mean that it is only talking about those dragons.
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This thread comes up every three years or so. And it always goes exactly as the above.
The OPs been answered: epic spells are teh grossorz. Don't touch it with a stick. The only real question is what Soro is going to do about them here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=16432.0)
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No. See, the thing is there can be multiple valid interpretations, all of which are correct. The idea that within the context of Draconomicon, "dragon" always refers to "True Dragon" is one such interpretation. But the notion that, in this specific instance, "dragon" refers to any creature with the dragon type is also valid.
The book literally says "In the D&D game, the term “dragon” encompasses a number of different creatures, some of which bear little resemblance to the great flying creatures with breath weapons that we commonly think of as dragons. For the most part, this book concerns itself with the ten varieties of true dragon described in the Monster Manual."
* There is no interpretation otherwise.
* There is no ambiguity to be had.
* There is no accepting your bullshit.
When I said prove is means the Type like you think it does I literally meant prove it's Type you think it is. And instead of doing that you went with claiming it's ambiguous so I accept your failure and offer my condolences on your inability to accept it.
This thread comes up every three years or so. And it always goes exactly as the above.
The OPs been answered: epic spells are teh grossorz. Don't touch it with a stick. The only real question is what Soro is going to do about them here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=16432.0)
1. Pretty much through I do get less and less tolerant of things.
2. Epic Spells are broken, there is saving grace of requiring DM approval but when the forums typically operate as if there is no DM and permission is granted for PrC/Feat choices very few people want to discuss drawing lines in the sand of how to balance them when instead you can talk about how you can munchkin things and screw something over.
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You can use the ways of gaining skill ranks beyond your level to qualify for Epic Spellcasting pre-epic. For instance, be Old or older and add the dragon type to any of the following, whether through Dragonwrought, half-dragon, or Polymorph/Metamorphosis/PAO/Shapechange; then, do the following:
An illithid savant can consume a creature with 24+ ranks in Spellcraft. Summoning and calling are good for this, as you can ensure the creature won't resist.
The Cityscape feat Primary Contact grants +1 skill rank above and beyond your level cap.
Bloodlines increase your skill cap without increasing your HD.
Using PsyRef and temporary HD (such as from Inspire Greatness) can boost your skill ranks permanently above your level.
Using Fusion on a high HD creature and using PsyRef, or hitting yourself with Astral Seed to make the effect permanent.
Hit yourself with multiple strains of lycanthropy until you break the level cap, take Epic Spellcasting, cast the spells you want, and cure the lycanthropy. Even better with the Curse of Lycanthropy spell. If you want the epic change to be permanent, use a thought bottle before you cure yourself, or use the negative levels/Greater Restoration trick to instantaneously retrain your lycanthropy "levels" to actual class levels.
Use the dusk giant's or barghest's ability to absorb Hit Dice.
Ally yourself with a void disciple with the Moment of Clarity ability.
There're a few 3rd party feats that let you break skill rank caps, including a few semi-official campaign settings that are sanctioned by WotC. I don't recall off the top of my head what those are, though.
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Also, GM fiat!
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@Ly some of those are already mentioned (feat/savant) or blocked (kobolds), but there is also the the assumption that temporary Hit Dice can do that. Don't be a Link and invent thing or pose the rough argument of "didn't do the research" :p
Like Temporary Hit Points != Hit Points & Ability Damage != Damage, the extra or missing word significantly alters which rules are even being discussed. Temporary Hit Dice vs Hit Dice would be of no exception, and Epic rules uses the term Level so the question posed is Temp HD count as a level?
Now there is a lot of precedence for no and the rules don't support any argument for saying yes. Which is crippling since per Teaching the Game you must translate what you want to do into the game rules, IE prove you can is the default requirement. But to go into the concept if you houseruled it don't forget to look for collateral damage caused by the repercussions of the ruling. Like saying Bardic Music can increase your level may let you select Epic Feats, but it also means your level is higher for the purposes of determine XP. A +2 level difference is a huge 1/2 XP rate against the same CR so wanting the Feat options of say a Wizard 10 / Temp 2 means you've double the play time needed to actually be a Wizard 12.
Another thing to remember if either the group has said no Epics, that doesn't mean they've said yes to Epics and only the specifically method of progression based on XP is banned. That's actually pretty stupid and munchkin-like since you're obviously attempting to cheat and gain what's not agreed upon as not allowed.
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@Ly some of those are already mentioned (feat/savant) or blocked (kobolds), but there is also the the assumption that temporary Hit Dice can do that. Don't be a Link and invent thing or pose the rough argument of "didn't do the research" :p
There's nothing blocking kobolds from taking epic feats, if they're Old or older and take the Dragonwrought feat. They're dragons and can be Old, which is literally all that matters. They even have age categories corresponding with the "normal" true dragons.
Like Temporary Hit Points != Hit Points & Ability Damage != Damage, the extra or missing word significantly alters which rules are even being discussed. Temporary Hit Dice vs Hit Dice would be of no exception, and Epic rules uses the term Level so the question posed is Temp HD count as a level?
Levels are levels, and several of the levels I mentioned are permanent, though they can be altered and removed. Even if they aren't actual levels, they're close enough for counting as far as max skill ranks and BAB go (as you gain both for temporary levels just fine).
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Congrats and just plain ignoring the earlier discussion and totally missing the point now. :eh
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Lycan, Soro is still acting under the assumption that "dragon" within the context of Draconomicon always means "one of the 10 MM dragons" unless otherwise noted. The only citation he's made so far doesn't actually support him at all though, so take that for what you will.
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He's not incorrect in his assessment. I just finished reading through every chapter of the Draconomicon that even mentions Epic Feats, and outside of the brief description that you've already quoted, it is only used in direct reference with True Dragon progression. Under the section of Advanced Dragons is where the epic feats for dragons above Old age comes into play. Dragonwrought Kobolds do NOT get epic feats from being old age as they are not true dragons and do not progress as dragons. The access to epic feats is part of the Dragon RHD advancement. Try actually reading the chapters in the book in full rather than simply pulling a single quote to support a theory. The rule is intended for dragons as monsters not dragons as players, as a tool for the DM to create truly epic encounters involving dragons.
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I just finished reading through every chapter of the Draconomicon that even mentions Epic Feats,
So I like pretty much never hit that +1 button but that right there is worth one.
Awesome job Faeryn.
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Why not do a Tauric Magical Beast-ified Petitioner (epic creature w a negative LA).
Now your HD is much higher than your level and grants you the ability to meet the skills and spell requirements quicker maybe via monstrous epic feat rules?
*slight edit
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Why not do a Tauric Magical Beast-ified Petitioner (epic creature w a negative LA).
What's the LA on Petitioner again?
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Why not do a Tauric Magical Beast-ified Petitioner (epic creature w a negative LA).
What's the LA on Petitioner again?
No LA listed*, but it sets your HD to 2. You also lose all previous skills and feats, which somewhat defeats the purpose unless Tauric makes up for it.
That being said, what happens if you have a character with an effective level less than zero? For example, a Tayella (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/tayellah.htm) has 34 HD and a printed ECL of 26, meaning a -8 LA. When he dies and becomes a Petitioner, his HD get set to 2, but LA presumably doesn't change, so his final ECL is -6. What happens?
*I'm looking at Manual of the Planes, by the way. Not sure if it's been reprinted elsewhere.
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That being said, what happens if you have a character with an effective level less than zero? For example, a Tayella (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/tayellah.htm) has 34 HD and a printed ECL of 26, meaning a -8 LA.
I can't find the ECL of 26. Epic Handbook, p156, has it 34. Was it changed somewhere?
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No LA listed*, *I'm looking at Manual of the Planes, by the way. Not sure if it's been reprinted elsewhere.
In regard to LA if it doesn't have an entry it's not a Player Character and it's as simple as that. And yes, since you've been on a terrible roll so before you even cause me a headache I do in fact know there are no LA entries in 3.0 and no bringing it up isn't rules proving you right.
Besides Petitioner has a 3.5 update. They appear in the Update Booklet (with no LA) and the SRD which says
The template presented below is for NPCs, not player characters. If dead characters who are petitioners are later restored to life (once again becoming player characters), they forget any of their experiences as petitioners.
And minor tangent, could you like make it your New Year's resolution to read something before assuming what it does?
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That being said, what happens if you have a character with an effective level less than zero? For example, a Tayella (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/tayellah.htm) has 34 HD and a printed ECL of 26, meaning a -8 LA.
I can't find the ECL of 26. Epic Handbook, p156, has it 34. Was it changed somewhere?
Not sure what to tell you. My copy of ELH definitely says 26. First printing, published 2002.
@SorO: Dude, chill out. All I was doing was answering your question, cuz you apparently couldn't be assed to do the research yourself. I wasn't about to argue the case either way.
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@SorO: Dude, chill out. All I was doing was answering your question, cuz you apparently couldn't be assed to do the research yourself. I wasn't about to argue the case either way.
Says the man who brought it up like you could use it, didn't read the entry saying you cannot, and invented a word all in one post. :rolleyes
Also my ELH matches kitep's. While that could be chalked up to an OCR error since it is a PDF, seeing how the entire net is utterly devoid of discussion of the subject and we know you can't read the books I'm inclined to think... Well I'm sure you know what I'm inclined to think. But I went ahead and found a different copy for sport and it also disagrees with you. Try licking the number and see if there is a bit of leftover food stuck to your page from the group that used it last before putting it up on ebay for you.
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@SorO: Dude, chill out. All I was doing was answering your question, cuz you apparently couldn't be assed to do the research yourself. I wasn't about to argue the case either way.
Says the man who brought it up like you could use it, didn't read the entry saying you cannot, and invented a word all in one post. :rolleyes
I didn't bring it up. I answered your question about it.
Also: can't be assed. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=can%27t+be+assed&l=1)
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Im dumb.... you need the negative LA for the torso, not the body. NVM my suggestion (unless it could have a diff work around)
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People people, be nice! Soro, i know thats hard for you, but please try :-)
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Also: can't be assed. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=can%27t+be+assed&l=1)
I believe that's a British phrase, so shouldn't it be "can't be arsed"?
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People people, be nice! Soro, i know thats hard for you, but please try :-)
Whaaat? I'm always nice.
@Lycanthro, well yeah if you wanted to use the British slang correctly instead of half-assed. :drums
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:looloo
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:looloo
I think the politically correct term is mentally hilarious according to Facebook.
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:poke
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I have a question...
Why?
I mean, 9th level spells get plenty silly. Back when I was still running last year, even though people were epic, nobody took epic spellcasting. Mostly because there were far more fun things to take. The really fun things to play with were pre-epic. I think one guy took epic quicken spellcasting or something, but besides that, all the epic spells cost so much they never bothered getting them.
More spells faster were much more effective then the epic spells themselves. And before you start throwing examples at me to prove me wrong, I'm talking about a campaign played from 1st to over 30th. Theoretical examples do not impress me as much as the examples from watching four dedicated point mongers do it the hard way, one level at a time. Practical optimization leads me to the impression that epic spells are not worth the trouble.
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I have a question...
Why?
I mean, 9th level spells get plenty silly. Back when I was still running last year, even though people were epic, nobody took epic spellcasting. Mostly because there were far more fun things to take. The really fun things to play with were pre-epic. I think one guy took epic quicken spellcasting or something, but besides that, all the epic spells cost so much they never bothered getting them.
More spells faster were much more effective then the epic spells themselves. And before you start throwing examples at me to prove me wrong, I'm talking about a campaign played from 1st to over 30th. Theoretical examples do not impress me as much as the examples from watching four dedicated point mongers do it the hard way, one level at a time. Practical optimization leads me to the impression that epic spells are not worth the trouble.
While I whole-heartedly agree that epic spellcasting is broken to hell and back (and despite it being an obvious nerf, fully endorse Fean-Merc Epic Spellcasting as devised by Dicefreaks members Feanor and Mercucio), it's one full true power has to do with mitigating to hell and back a mythal. I'll see if I can find the final version of Jaerom Darkwind's avatar character as an example...it is truly staggering.
EDIT: Spelling errors...
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I have a question... Why?
This. Is. Min/Max!
More spells faster were much more effective then the epic spells themselves. And before you start throwing examples at me to prove me wrong, I'm talking about a campaign played from 1st to over 30th. Theoretical examples do not impress me as much as the examples from watching four dedicated point mongers do it the hard way, one level at a time. Practical optimization leads me to the impression that epic spells are not worth the trouble.
So you claim Epic Spells don't suck if you can't use them? >.>
Anyway, I can aim for a more practical usage of Epic Spells, but first you need to understand them. The time/XP costs are scaled off the gold cost and that is scaled off the Spellcraft DC. So a DC of 0 means 0 gold, 0 days, 0 XP to research and learn. Secondly, Epic Spells are not 10th level Slots and you cannot Metamagic a lower level Spell into it, so if you're comparing your Epic Spell to a 9th or a Persisted 5th level Spell you're doing it wrong.
So let's throw out two examples, +10 minutes to the Armor Seed gives six points to mess around with which can equal a +7 Armor Bonus to AC and you can also use the effect to provide a +1 Circumstantial or Dodge Bonus to AC as two different Spells providing stacking bonuses. So is a Feat Slot worth a stacking +2 to AC?
How about you imagine you're at Helms Deep with a massive army of Orcs but dammit those walls suck. So you duck into a storage drain and ask the Cleric what's a 1st level Slot worth to him. He looks at you and smiles as you create twenty cubic feet of solid freaking adamantine in the shape of a wire stair case over the wall and it probably stretches over 1/3 of the wall's length. +10 minutes & 1st level Slot equals -21 to the DC meaning the base effect choices of the Conjure Seed are free. You basically traded a Feat Slot for the ability to buff another's 1st level Slot beyond the powers of the 5th level Fabricate's limitations.
And you get both those, and more, off a single Feat Slot. The practical optimization is your one Feat slot can be used to gain a 2/day ability that can perform hundreds of different effects. It's impossible not to think of how theoretically that could be used to solve adventuring problems even if you gain little to no direct combat benefit. But practically, there isn't a more versatile Feat out there you could take and really no bonus based Feat could ever be worth more. It's like handing someone Nolzur's Marvelous Pigments and a hat of +15 to Craft(painting) and then saying eh, that'll suck you should sell it and pick up a +1 dagger or something.
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I mean, 9th level spells get plenty silly
This. I have yet to see a reason for 9ths to exist in a balanced game. 8th can already do the job. Taking 9th out does nothing but help balance: a la my released homebrew in my metacompendium.