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Gaming Discussion => D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder => You Break it You Buy it => Topic started by: 7h39 on February 01, 2014, 07:52:29 AM

Title: Gaining divine ranks - Illumian Bluff/Diplomancer
Post by: 7h39 on February 01, 2014, 07:52:29 AM

Hi everyone! i was just wondering about ways to cheat-gain divine ranks.

Obv i remember the Simulacrum/Ice Assassin cheese of pun pun builds:

(click to show/hide)

1- Gain Spell-Like Ability of Simulacrum/IceAssassin to avoid deity's material component and xp and cast cloning a deity, 2- Ice Assassin of a Deity invest you with 1 Divine Rank, 3- you invest a squirrel with the divine rank, 4- Repeat NI Times 5- Retrive all Divine Ranks from squirrels to gain NI Divine Ranks.

And i developed a "Non Infinite" build with Maho-tsukai/Tainted Sorcerer and Red Wizard that circumvent the Deity material component with "Blood Component" and essentialy trades XP for divine ranks.

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Boost your CL with Circle Magic until you reach CL30, then cast Simulacrum expending:
30[HD of the simulacrum=1/2 HD of the Deity]x100gp[Simulacrum Material gp Cost]x23hp/750gp[Blood Component rateo]x2[Blood from an external source]=184hp from a just gated BIG creature (a Balor?Pit Fiend?) and 30[HD of the simulacrum=1/2 HD of the Deity]x100gp[Simulacrum XP Cost]=3000xp.
Repeat until you can cast Lv7 spells: 190.000xp Lv20 - 78.000xp Lv13(expendable XP)/3000(Simulacrum XP Cost)= 37 Divine Ranks - unless you make the restoration/level loss trick: Infinite Xp=Infinite Divine Ranks

But actualy both those methods creates from "nothing" divine ranks to spam, and so i think Simulacrum/Ice Assassin could be questionated as they copy the creature but not create divine ranks.

There is no any other Divine-Sucking build to make Deities grant directly Divine Ranks? thus they are immune to mind-affecting i was thinking about a diplomancer/bluff-o-mancer build that could beat the St.Chubert 100(base Mod)+20(maximized dice)+70(Maximum SenseMotive/Bluff Modifiers)=190 Sense Motive

In this case, you can actually ask always 1(or more?) divine rank(s)/deity as the proxy ivestment, about 23 deities into the standard D&D Cosmology, and break 23-1divine ranks with a chort with same build asking the gods for the same invesment and then redirecting all on you.

Divine ranks three: To avoid nasty and cheated gods to freak out and retrieve every single divine rank, i think this could put it out:

(click to show/hide)

1-Gain a divine rank from God#1, right now he can actually retrieve it. 2-Now, as a Demigod#1 you can grant your divine rank to another being, that will become Demigod#2 (a follower); God#1 now can't retrive any divine rank 3-Don't Retrive divine rank from Demigod#2 instead let him invest you with his divine rank, right now he can retrive the rank from you, but you'll kill him as soon as he investr his divine rank. 4- Now your former "investing" god is dead and you can keep his divine rank as a last present. 5-laugh

it's like "Washing money" in breaking bad.

Impressions?Adivces?

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 01, 2014, 10:12:23 AM

Diplomacy.
Seriously, with a high enough check even Ao becomes your best buddy and you can burrow a couple of Divine Ranks.

If you want a more within-the-rules attempt, there is an epic PrC for True Dragons that grants a Divine Rank. Other than befriending/cloning/said_PrC, you can run with the lore. Enough people believe you're a deity and poof, you are. See also Greeks, Persians, etc.

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks
Post by: altpersona on February 01, 2014, 12:46:10 PM

Quote from: SorO_Lost on February 01, 2014, 10:12:23 AM

Diplomacy.
Seriously, with a high enough check even Ao becomes your best buddy and you can burrow a couple of Divine Ranks.

If you want a more within-the-rules attempt, there is an epic PrC for True Dragons that grants a Divine Rank. Other than befriending/cloning/said_PrC, you can run with the lore. Enough people believe you're a deity and poof, you are. See also Greeks, Persians, etc.

do you mean Dragon Ascendant?

has a req of bab +30, i thought bab stopped at 20 unless you got it higher (idk how) prior to ecl 20?

DA also dosnt mention 'divine rank' it says 'quasi-deity', the ability listing is Immortality. it sorta sucks, like you could just be a warforged or necrop or elemental and again its capstone ability from jump. 

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 01, 2014, 02:47:16 PM

Pun-pun used an Abomination to get DvR 0.
" ... Still, they all share a tiny spark of deific energy, which grants them the qualities described in below. (Note: deity rules are used, abominations are rank 0 deities.)  ... "
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm

2nd-ing Dragon Ascendant.  I might have been the first to point that out.  Vaguely recall it's a real DvR 1.  Maybe it is for what it gets ; or perhaps the fluff/descriptive text.  No access these days.



2nd-ing SorO's diplo tactic ... iirc the whole Nut-Pun squirrels with proxy attached, got going after LoP's Omni infinite diplo check became available.  Definitely not the same as the Epic Diplo check = mind affecting, has no effect on deities.
edit 1 --- hmm I seem to be hazy on all that, the o.p. first spoiler is way more specific, and different. 

I suppose a similar tactic could be directed at an Avatar of a Deity, and maybe get different (more interesting?) results.


edit 2
Heh, your 3rd spoiler makes the infinite DvR 0 loop, not that the next dude that gets the 1 dvr has any incentive to give up the dvr 1 to the next guy.  Assumes that DvR 1 minus DvR 1 = DvR 0 , as opposed to not deific at all.


Thrallherd chains + Epic Diplomancing = actual real followers.  Get that # high enough and you at least qualify for DvR 19.



edit 3
There's the Epic Destiny Demi-God capstone ability.  That article was probably the very last 3.5 thing put out by wotc, so not much attention.  It's around here somewhere ... lemme go look.  Here's the thread, check Boz's 1st first ---> http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4570.0

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks
Post by: altpersona on February 01, 2014, 03:09:27 PM

not sure how you get switch to an abomination.

im tempted to think shapechange will do it, not sure if it grants traits or not. but you need a massive caster level, at least to use the aboms listed on d20srd. idk of any that are less than 36hd, its not a crazy number but it implys your abusing something.

wish/miracle maybe?

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 01, 2014, 03:54:10 PM

hmm ... it seems the direct reference to Abominations in the pun-pun O.P. got edited.
Post #120 has the slightest of details, that were there once-upon-a-time.
http://community.wizards.com/comment/20577821#comment-20577821
Also Turok124 came up with the level 5 build version.

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks
Post by: 7h39 on February 01, 2014, 04:04:38 PM

Here it is the Diplo/Bluffmancer build i made to make the deities collaborating. ( Updated Version 1.1)

Pantheon of refernce: Fareun (50+ Deities)
Fractional Bab/Saves needed for some qualifications

Illumian – Conquering Divinity.

Marshal 1 / Warlock 1 / Cleric 1 (Charm Domain, Mind Domain) / Monk 1 / Warchief 2 / Tattoed Monk 3 / Chameleon 4 / Dragon Devotee 1 / Exemplar 1 / Risen Martyr 5
Stats:

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STR:   6 (10 Point Buy -4 Age)
DEX:   6 (10 Point Buy -4 Age)
CON:   / (10 Point Buy -4 Age /: Risen Martyr)
INT:   16 (14 Point Buy +2 Age)
WIS:   14 (12 Point Buy, +2 Age)
CHA:   46 (18 Point Buy, +5 Level, +5(Inherent) Book, +6(Enhancement, changed to Perfection by Artificer Cohort with Item Alteration infusion) Cloak, +2Age, +2 Chamaleon, +2 Dragon Devotee, +2 Warchief +4 Risen Martyr)

Illumian

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•   Humanoid (Human)
•   Luminous Sigils
•   Glyphic Resonance
•   Power Sigils: +5
o   Vaul: +1 bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks.
o   Uur (Warchief): +1 bonus on Dexterity checks and Dexterity-based skill checks
o   Hoon (Tattoed Monk): +1 bonus on Wisdom checks, Constitution checks, and Wisdom- or Constitution-based skill checks
o   Aesh (Chamaleon): +1 bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
o   Naen (Risen Martyr): +1 bonus on Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks
•   Illumian Words
•   Final Utterance
•   +2 [Shadow] Spells
•   Superior Litteracy
•   Languages: Common, Illumian, Draconinc, Celestial

Marshall 1

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•   Hp: 1d8
•   Skills: 4+Intx4 [4/2]
•   Minor Aura: Motivate Charisma: Bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks
•   BaB +3/4
•   Saves: +2|+1/3|+2
•   Lv1 Feat
o   Persuasive: +2 bonus on all Bluff checks and Intimidate checks.
•   Marshall Bonus Feat:
o   Skill Focus: Diplomacy: +3 Diplomacy Skill Check

Warlock 1

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•   Hp: 1d6
•   Skills: 2+Int [5/2]
•   Eldritch blast 1d6, invocation (least): Beguiling Influence: +6 bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks for a period of 24 hours
•   BaB +3/4
•   Saves: +1/3|+1/3|+1/2

Cleric 1

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•   Hp: 1d8
•   Skills: 2+Int [6/3]
•   Spells 3/1+1
•   Domains:
o   Charm Domain: boost his or her Charisma by 4 points once per day
o   Mind Domain: +2 bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive checks
•   BaB +3/4
•   Saves: +1/2|+1/3|+1/2
•   Lv3 Feat
o   Endurance

Monk 1

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•   Hp: 1d8
•   Skills: 4+Int [7/3]
•   Flurry of Blows
•   Improved Unarmed Strike
•   CA Bonus: Wisdom to AC + Fixed Bonus
•   Monk Bonus Feat
o   Improved Grapple
•   BaB +3/4
•   Saves: +1/2|+1/2|+1/2

Warchief 2

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•   Hp: 1d10
•   Skills: 2+Int [9/4]
•   BaB +3/4
•   Saves: +1/2|+1/3|+1/2
•   Tribal Frenezy +2
•   Ability Boost: Cha +2
•   Lv6 Feat
o   Nimbus of Light: +2 circumstance bonus on all Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks made when interacting with good creatures.

Tatooed Monk 3

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•   Hp: 1d8
•   Skills 4+Int x3 [12/6]
•   Monk Abilities +3Lv
o   +10ft speed
o   1d8 unarmed
•   Bellflower Tattoo:
o    2/day, add his Charisma modifier as an enhancement bonus to any of his ability scores – 9 rounds
•   White Mask Tattoo:
o   immune to detect thoughts, detect lies, and any attempt to magically discern his alignment. He gains a +10 bonus on all Bluff checks
•   BaB +3/4
•   Saves: +1/2|+1/2|+1/2
•   Lv9 Feat
o   Able Learner: All skill ranks cost 1 skill point for you to purchase, even if the skill is cross-class for you

Chamaleon 4

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•   Hp: 1d8
•   Skills: 4+Int x4 [16/8]
•   Aptitude focus 1/day (+2)
•   Bonus Feat
o   Sacred Vow: +2 Perfection to Diplomacy Checks
•   Mimic Class Feature 1/day
•   Ability Boon +2
•   Lv12 Feat:
o   Skill Focus Bluff: +3 bluff Skill Check
•   BaB +1/2
•   Saves: +1/3|+1/3|+1/3

Dragon Devotee 1

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•   Hp: 1d6
•   Skills: 5+Int [19/9]
•   Ability Increase: +2Cha
•   Natural Armor: +1
•   BaB +3/4
•   Saves: +1/2|+1/3|+1/3

Exemplar 1

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•   Hp: 1d6
•   Skills: 9+Int [20/10]
•   Skill Artistry (Bluff):
o   Choose one skill in which the exemplar has at least 13 ranks. She gains a +4 competence bonus on all checks involving that skill
•   Skill Mastery (Diplomacy, Bluff)
o   When making a check with one of these skills, she can take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.
•   BaB +1/2
•   Saves: +1/2|+1/2|+1/3

Risen Martyr 5

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•   Type: Deathless

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o   No constituition score
o   Hit Dice: d12
o   Darkvision out to 60 feet.
o   Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
o   Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
o   Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, or ability drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution) as well as fatigue and exhaustion effects.
o   Unlike undead, the deathless are subject to energy drain. Like living creatures, deathless are harmed by negative energy and healed by positive energy.
o   Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude  save, except for energy drain attacks, effects that also work on objects, and harmless effects.
o   Cannot use the run action.
o   Uses Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
o   Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hp or less, it is immediately destroyed.
o   Deathless do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

•   Hp: 1d12
•   Skill: 3+Int x5
•   Charisma Score Increase: +4
•   Deflection Bonus (Cha)
•   Holy Purpose:
o   +2 sacred bonus on all attack rolls, damage rolls, ability checks, and skill checks.
•   Bless (Sp):
o   Three times per day, a risen martyr of at least 2nd level can use bless.
•   Magic Circle Against Evil (Su):
o   At 2nd level, a risen martyr is continually surrounded by a protective aura that functions as a magic circle against evil spell
•   Daylight (Su):
o   At will as a free action, a 3rd level risen martyr can use daylight, as the spell
•   Acid Immunity (Ex):
o   At 4th level, a risen martyr gains immunity to acid.
•   Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a risen martyr of at least 4th level can detect evil, as the spell.
•   Protective Aura (Su):
o   At 5th level, the risen martyr's magic circle against evil is replaced by an effect that duplicates the "protective aura" spell.
•   Bab: +1/2
•   Saves: +1/3|+1/3|+1/2
•   Lv15 Feat
o   Leadership: Cohort: 17th
Followers: 1st 135, 2nd 13, 3th 7, 4th 4 5th 2, 6th 2 (163).
•   Lv18 Feat
o   Negotiator: +2 Diplomacy

Leadership: Cohort: 17th ( Human Artificer17) Followers: 1st 135, 2nd 13, 3th 7, 4th 4 5th 2, 6th 2 (163).
Equipment: +5 Book of Charisma 138.000gp, +6 Cloak of Charisma 36.000gp, +30 Ring of Diplomacy 90.000gp, +30 Ring of Bluff 90.000gp, Wand of  Glibness 50 Charges 16.000gp

Total            370.000gp
Artificer builds the stuff: *0.25   92.500gp
Remaining (from 760.000gp)   665.000gp

Cohort: Human Artificer 17
Class Features:
Artificer knowledge, Trap finding, Item creation, Retain essence, Skill mastery, Metamagic spell trigger, Metamagic spell completion, Craft Reserve 2500, Infusions 4/4/4/4/3/3
Item Creation
Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft homunculus, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wand, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Forge Ring
Feats:
Human: Apprentice (Craftsman), Lv1: Death Devotion, Lv3: Extend Spell, Art4: Extraordinary Artisan, Lv6: Magical Artisan (Extraordinary Artisan), Art8: Quicken Spell, Lv12: Magical Aptitude, Art12: Legendary Artisan, Lv15: Craft Contingent Spell, Art16: Persistent Spell.

Crafting Cost Reduction (from market price):
*0.5 Base crafting *0.9 Apprentice (Craftsman) *0.75 Extraordinary Artisan *0.75 Magical Artisan = *0.25
XP Cost Reduction (from market price):
*0.04 Base crafting *0.75 Legendary Artisan *0.75 Magical Artisan = 0.02

Xp Cost Trick
1.   Lose a level, failing voluntarily Save of a Death Devotion imbued knife
2.   Level Loss set Xp Between 16th and 17th ECL, you have (136.000-120.000)/2= 8.000 Xp to craft any object. Crafting Level maintained to 17th with Orange Ioun Stone
3.   After you initialized the craft process, return to Lv17 with a Restoration effect
4.   Dedicated Wright finishes Crafting for you

Items before the trick:
•   Ioun stone, orange 30.000 > 7500gp/600xp
•   Wondrous Item of Restoration– Word Command 1/day
CL11xSL6x1800x(1/5)= 118.800gp > 29700gp / 2376xp
•   Dedicated Wright: 2,100 *0.9 Apprentice (Craftsman) *0.75 Extraordinary Artisan *0.75 Magical Artisan = 1070gp / 160 *0.75 Legendary Artisan *0.75 Magical Artisan = 90 xp

Cohort Equipment: 7500+29700+1070= 39.000gp / 3070xp
Wealth / Xp Left: 100.000gp-39.000gp-15.000(15 Daggers+1) = 46.000gp / 2500xp(Craft Reserve)+600xp(Retain Essence: 15 Daggers+1)-3070 = 30xp Left

Diplomacy/Bluff Skill Checks

Charisma Buffing:
46/+18 Base
+4 – Charm Domain 10Rounds
= 50/+20
+20 - Bellflower1 3Rounds
= 70/+30
+30 – Bellflower2 3Rounds
-20 Bellflower1
= 80/+35

Bluff
10 Dice, Skill Mastery - Exemplar
23 Ranks
+35 Cha Bonus
+5 Vaul Sigil
+35 Motivate Charisma (Circumstance)
+2 Persuasive Feat
+6 Beguiling Influence
+2 Mind Domain
+10 White Mask Tattoo
+3 Skill Focus Bluff
+2 Holy Purpose (Sacred)
+4 Skill Astistry - Exemplar
= 137
+30 Glibness Wand
+30 Ring of Bluff
+17 Moment of Prescience (Insight) (Contingent Spell by Cohort)
= 214
+163 Aid-Another – Followers
= 377

Diplomacy
10 Dice, Skill Mastery - Exemplar
23 Ranks
+35 Cha Bonus
+5 Vaul Sigil
+35 Motivate Charisma (Circumstance)
+2 Negotiator Feat
+2 Sacred Wow (Perfection)
+6 Beguiling Influence
+2 Mind Domain
+3 Skill Focus Diplomacy
+2 Holy Purpose (Sacred)
= 125
+30 Ring of Diplomacy
+17 Moment of Prescience (Insight) (Contingent Spell by Cohort)
- 10 Rushed
= 162
+163 Aid-Another – Followers
= 325
 
Ascension? Just Ask!

Buff Charisma as Described before, while your Cohort UMD a scroll of Gate creating a Gate to the chosen Deity.

(Round1) Step into the gate with your cohort and do instantly a Rushed Diplomacy –That triggers the first Moment of Prescience contingent spell, crafted by Cohort - check to influence the god’s attitude. If Bilbo can withstand the mighty Smaug, you can do it too!

By SRD with a simple 50DC check an Hostile foe becomes Helpful.

If isn’t enough PC can make also an automatic DC150 check to make the divinity Fanatic (and so his followers, if needed). It’s expressively written that Fanatic Condition is a mind-affecting effect, so nothing, just showing off and/or have an overwhelming result for an opposed (even if SRD don’t grant an opposed check for Diplomacy) Sense Motive check (Maximum Deities’ result 120 (20 Maximized Dice +100 bonus (St. Chubert))

However, helpful text: “Will take risks to help you” seems to be fine. If you want to be HARDLINE you may guess that a 50CD it’s for non-epic beings within 20HD, thus since Deities has 60HD you can multiply the DCx3 and have the same 150DC that PC can easily overcome.

(Round2) Now that the deity it’s in the mood, Ask to grant you some divine ranks, even 1 only rank it’s fine, with a well-placed (if needed) Bluff check –That triggers the second Moment of Prescience contingent spell, crafted by Cohort - justifying the honor with your difficult life and martyrization and with the large amount of people who are already your fanatic (Diplomacy 150 check) followers.

By the cicrcumstances I think that would semi-automatic success, but if you need to use rules Bluff it's the way. Deity has an opposed Sense Motive check (+ some modifiers in his favor) against PC's Bluff check of 214, not counting the effect of followers “aiding”.

Example Circumstance   Sense Motive Modifier

Instill suggestion in target   +50

Example Circumstances   Modifier
The target wants to believe you.   -5
The bluff is believable and doesn’t affect the target much.   +0
The bluff is a little hard to believe or puts the target at some risk.   +5
The bluff is hard to believe or puts the target at significant risk.   +10
The bluff is way out there, almost too incredible to consider.   +20

Instill Suggestion in Target
This is identical to the effect of the suggestion spell, except that it is nonmagical and lasts for only 10 minutes.

If playing without epic bluff suggestion rules, just the base ability make the trick: by SRD into the bluff description: "A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe. Bluff, however, is not a suggestion spell", so we can move on.

Worst case scenario:
The Highest Sense Motive modifier of a Dieity is +100 from St. Chubert (DeDp92). Even with +50 vs Suggestion modifier, +20 for and unbelievable Bluff and 20 dice result for Deities’ “Always Maximized Dice” ability, the final check would be “only” 190 against 214 check of the Character. This means a success, then:
 
(Round 3) Deity grants 1 divine ranks, enjoying the encounter with the mortal, making him a his Proxy aka: Divine Rank1 “Demigod”.
 
(Round 4) PC thanks for the honor, while the cohort opens another gate with a scroll and both return back to material plane.

Thx to the extreme oratory skill, the Character successfully invited a (and any from now on) Deity to make the PC a investing 1 “mere” divine rank in him.

(Round 5) Recycle Divine Ranks to avoid fallbacks:
Gods granting divine ranks have the ability to retrieve them in any moment, thus we need some “trading” to avoiding fallbacks
1-   Gain a divine rank from God#1 as described, right now he can actually retrieve it.
2-   As a Demigod Take “Alter Reality” as Salient Divine Ability for divine rank 1 and wish a Simulacrum of yourself.
3-    As a Demigod#1 you can grant your divine rank to another being, before the Bluff-Suggestion wears-off, grant your just earned Divine Rank to the simulacrum of yourself just created. He will become Demigod#2; God#1 now can't retrieve any divine rank because you haven’t any more.
4-   Don't Retrieve divine rank from Demigod#2 instead, order him to invest you with his divine rank. Right now he can retrieve the rank from you.
5-   Simulacrum is your former "investing" god, KILL IT WITH FIRE keep his divine rank as a last gift.
(Thx Chemus for the “no-follower has been armed in this process” Exalted Wise hint)
 
Consumable for each divine rank
Scroll of Gate x2      18.000gp
Moment of Prescience Contingent spell CL17 x2
CL17xSL8x100=13.600 x2   27.000gp

Total            45.000gp
Artificer builds the stuff: *0.25   11.250gp

Budget still Avaiable      665.000gp
Tithe from followers and Cohort
Cohort: 17th(remaining)      46.000gp
Followers
1st 135      900gpx135   121.500gp
2nd 13      2000gpx13   26.000gp
3th 7                2500gpx7   17.500gp
4th 4                3300gpx4   13.200gp
5th 2                4300gpx2   8.600gp
6th 2                5600gpx2   11.200gp
Total                            244.000gp
Tithe      1/10                             24.400gp
Final Budget for Ascension      690.000gp

Number of Divine Ranks (xDvR/11.250gp)   60

The Character Stats into the 100^10 Elite Op. Challenge (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6590.msg214292#msg214292)

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks
Post by: 7h39 on February 01, 2014, 04:18:51 PM

Quote from: awaken_D_M_golem on February 01, 2014, 02:47:16 PM

2nd-ing SorO's diplo tactic ... iirc the whole Nut-Pun squirrels with proxy attached, got going after LoP's Omni infinite diplo check became available.  Definitely not the same as the Epic Diplo check = mind affecting, has no effect on deities.
edit 1 --- hmm I seem to be hazy on all that, the o.p. first spoiler is way more specific, and different. 

I suppose a similar tactic could be directed at an Avatar of a Deity, and maybe get different (more interesting?) results.

edit 2
Heh, your 3rd spoiler makes the infinite DvR 0 loop, not that the next dude that gets the 1 dvr has any incentive to give up the dvr 1 to the next guy.  Assumes that DvR 1 minus DvR 1 = DvR 0 , as opposed to not deific at all.


Thrallherd chains + Epic Diplomancing = actual real followers.  Get that # high enough and you at least qualify for DvR 19.

edit 3
There's the Epic Destiny Demi-God capstone ability.  That article was probably the very last 3.5 thing put out by wotc, so not much attention.  It's around here somewhere ... lemme go look.  Here's the thread, check Boz's 1st first ---> http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4570.0

What kind of effect on avatars?? from what i know avatars are the same of the deity only whit less divine ranks

Quote

Avatar of Bahamut: As Bahamut except divine rank 5

The just-made DvR1 follower can be persuaded easily then the former god with diplo/bluff cheks i think

There is an actual number of followers to gain Divine rank by RAW? i was guessing about Leadership chains, but it's even more cheesier then trick deities with bluff :D

i saw the epic destiny 4th edition adaption but it's 21+ lv and i was searching something to do 20th or under  :D

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 02, 2014, 02:53:38 PM

It might be a dead rabbit hole chase at this point.
I don't recall what made an Avatar slightly different.

In any case, the SDA makes Avatars and
those can hand off 1 dvr (or more) each.
I figure if you get Daddy-Deity to help, the
various Avatars-of-Deity will likely help too.

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 02, 2014, 02:56:31 PM

Oh I'm with you on not going 21st level.
Epic is by and large, unnecessary for T.O.
It's just that Demigod is a real DvR 1
without having deities play into it.
A smidge safer than relying on diplo-deity.

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 03, 2014, 07:15:21 PM

 :clap ... on the reply #6 post.

iirc - the Breaking The Core used this idea,
but it was only assumed, and not worked out. 
Since doing a Core Nanobots-esque thingy,
didn't make diplomancy deities all that tough.

But this is much more precise / detailed.
+1

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks
Post by: 7h39 on February 03, 2014, 09:36:48 PM

Quote from: awaken_D_M_golem on February 02, 2014, 02:53:38 PM

It might be a dead rabbit hole chase at this point. I don't recall what made an Avatar slightly different.

In any case, the SDA makes Avatars and those can hand off 1 dvr (or more) each. I figure if you get Daddy-Deity to help, the
various Avatars-of-Deity will likely help too.

Yes, but i think avaters are created from thin air and infused with Divine Ranks. Obv by raw It's possible that deities infuse mortals with more then 1 DvR but it's only mentionated in "methods of ascension" and isn't an actual rule.

Proxies creation however is well-described and this is why i used as a base mechanic for the ascension.

Quote from: awaken_D_M_golem on February 02, 2014, 02:56:31 PM

Oh I'm with you on not going 21st level. Epic is by and large, unnecessary for T.O. It's just that Demigod is a real DvR 1 without having deities play into it. A smidge safer than relying on diplo-deity.

You right, stepping into the gate assumes a Initiative roll and dieties are more likely to go first, and as you said a living diplomancer it's fare more effective then a death one! Btw, you can gate first Legal Good deities that are not supposed to attack on sight, accumulate divine ranks and the precious salient divine abilities/qualities to an excalation to face mort strong ones, with a little more of reliability.
In this fashon at DvR7 you can grab Salient Divine Ability: Extra Domain(Envy) and just cast Wish at CL17 "as a spell-like ability at wil" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#spellLikeAbilities) and break the game, but i prefer to play "fair"  :lol and pay for each divine rank.

Yhea, other proxies can grant DvR as well and they are so much more foolable then 10+ DvR  CR60 gods.

Quote from: awaken_D_M_golem on February 03, 2014, 07:15:21 PM

:clap ... on the reply #6 post.

iirc - the Breaking The Core used this idea, but it was only assumed, and not worked out.  Since doing a Core Nanobots-esque thingy, didn't make diplomancy deities all that tough.

But this is much more precise / detailed.
+1

Thx :D, build isn't 100% perfect and it's possible to have some more with human paragon and Zhentarim Spy, but just does the job by the numbers.

Edit: for how it's made it would by 100^10 OP Challenge legal (sure it needs some DvR and reformatting :D)

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks
Post by: Chemus on February 04, 2014, 12:43:29 AM

On the recycling of divine ranks; your build uses some exalted feats, so killing a friend, or a now fanatical foe, is likely an evil act. Just have a Shadowcraft Mage follower conjure you up an illusory, but real, creature and invest the rank in it. Then continue with your recycling.

And would you ever be a trickster deity! Still trying to think of a way to multiply your divine ranks without stealing more than one...so that you can return the one you got from the original deity. Then you'd have become a deity out of thin air. The ultimate trickster trick.

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks
Post by: 7h39 on February 04, 2014, 03:17:59 AM

Quote from: Chemus on February 04, 2014, 12:43:29 AM

On the recycling of divine ranks; your build uses some exalted feats, so killing a friend, or a now fanatical foe, is likely an evil act. Just have a Shadowcraft Mage follower conjure you up an illusory, but real, creature and invest the rank in it. Then continue with your recycling.

Thx for the correction! A simulacrum of a random human out of a scroll can do the same trick i think, btw the Character with just 1 divine rank can have Alter Reality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#alterReality) thx to high charisma and create a simulacrum on his own, and do the trick within 5 rounds. Wish cheese all over here!

Quote from: Chemus on February 04, 2014, 12:43:29 AM

And would you ever be a trickster deity! Still trying to think of a way to multiply your divine ranks without stealing more than one...so that you can return the one you got from the original deity. Then you'd have become a deity out of thin air. The ultimate trickster trick.

It would be awesome, but i can't figure out nothing too (leaving simulacrum/Ice Assassin tricks outside due them don't copy divine ranks [premise of the topic]) -

exeption: with 6 divine ranks you can take "avatar" salient divine ability : create 5 avatar(takes 1year each :shakefist ) of you with divine rank 3, defuse your 6 divine rank among followers until DvR0, gain divine rank from avatars, defuse avatar's divine ranks until avatars and you are DvR0, reclaim all divine ranks, rinse and repeat > Infinite DvR

Build Edited on post #6 v1.1 60ranks

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks - Illumian Bluff/Diplomancer
Post by: Chemus on February 04, 2014, 03:47:47 AM

If you can get to Divine Rank 16, you could get Divine Creation, and make the Avatars on a Fast Trait Genesis-Created Plane, rather than in your 'realm' (Avatar states that if you have the Divine Creation ability, you can make the Avatars anywhere). The 1yr could be 1yr == 1rd in the rest of the cosmos. Then you could give the deities that you 'borrowed' the ranks from their ranks back in about 1 minute, and they'd not have reason to hate you.

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks - Illumian Bluff/Diplomancer
Post by: Amechra on February 04, 2014, 04:24:43 AM

How are you getting all those sigils? I thought you only get 2 in all?

I mean, not that it's important to the overall build, I'm just curious.

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks - Illumian Bluff/Diplomancer
Post by: ketaro on February 04, 2014, 04:31:51 AM

Quote from: Amechra on February 04, 2014, 04:24:43 AM

How are you getting all those sigils? I thought you only get 2 in all?

I mean, not that it's important to the overall build, I'm just curious.

Illumians gain a new sigil every time they hit the 2nd level in a class. But only once per class taken (so not every 2 levels, but only at the 2nd level of the class, again).

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks - Illumian Bluff/Diplomancer
Post by: Amechra on February 04, 2014, 06:35:07 AM

Huh...

I'd been misreading that all this time.

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks - Illumian Bluff/Diplomancer
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 04, 2014, 04:21:40 PM

Oh interesting.
The classic X 2 / Y 2 / Z 2 combat build has more goodies with this.

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks - Illumian Bluff/Diplomancer
Post by: 7h39 on February 05, 2014, 07:48:21 AM

Btw, i tried to do the trick in "core only" (+ Deities and Demigods for gods' ruling obv), and it's even simplier.. just you need to plan who to contact first.

Note: i used only "written" items, no +30 Competence rings ;D - Most raw proof.

Core-Only (+Deities And Demigods)

Sense Motive Deities Modifiers – All checks are +20 (Maximized Dice) +20 (Impossible Bluff - no +50 instill suggestion)
1.   Ehlonna +45
2.   Heroneous +45
3.   Dennari +49
4.   Morandin +51
5.   Kord +54
6.   Obad Hai +51
7.   Pelor +55
8.   Yondalla +56
9.   Fharlanghn +57
10.   Boccob +59
11.   Corellon Larethian +65
12.   Elishar +68
13.   Taiia +68
14.   Garl Glittergold +70
15.   Wee Jas +77
16.   Bahmuth: +79
17.   St. Chthbert +100
18.   Erythnul (Evil): +38
19.   Kurtulmak (Evil) +40
20.   Loth (Evil) +40
21.   Hextor (Evil) +45
22.   Vecna (Evil) +51
23.   Gruumsh (Evil) +52
24.   Olidammara (Chaotic) +66
25.   Toldoth (Evil) +68
26.   Tiamat (Evil) +69
27.   Nerull (Evil) +90

Hermes: Half-Elf Bard20

Racial Features:
Medium Size; Speed: 30 feet. Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects. Low-Light Vision. +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.

Class Features
Bardic music, bardic knowledge, countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +4, Inspire competence, Suggestion, Inspire greatness, Song of freedom, Inspire heroics, Mass suggestion, Spells 4/4+4/4+3/4+3/4+3/4+3/4+2

Stats:
Str: 6/-2 (10 -4age) Dex: 6/-2 (10 -4age) Con: 6/-2 (10 -4age) Int: 16/+3 (14 +2 Age) Wis: 14/+2 (12+2age) Cha: 36/+13 (18 +2 Age +5inherent Book (140.000gp)+5 Increases +6 Cloak(36.000gp))

Feats: lv1 Persuasive, lv3 Skill Focus Bluff, lv6 Skill Focus Diplomacy, lv9 Negotiator, lv12 Leadership (Lv17 Generalist Wizard Cohort) , lv15 Free ,Lv18 Free.

Wealth 760.000gp – 140.000 Cha Book – 36.000 Cha Cloacl – 4.500 Circlet of Persuasion – 1.500 Contingency Focus = 578.500gp

Bluff:
23 Ranks
+13 Charisma
+30 Glibness - Autocasted
+2 Persuasive
+3 Skill Focus: Bluff
+2 Aid Another - Cohort
+20 (Insight) Moment of Prescience scroll CL20
   Contingency – Cast by Cohort
+3 (Competence) Circlet of Persuasion
   Contingency – Cast by Cohort
+4 (Morale) Heroism Greater – Autocasted
= +101

Dipomacy
23 Ranks
+13 Charisma
+2 Half Elf
+2 (Circumstance) Olive Branch [ Diplomacy Tool, Masterwork]
+2 (Sinergy) Bluff
+2 Negotiator
+3 Skill Focus: Diplomacy
+2 Aid Another – Cohort
+20 (Insight) Moment of Prescience scroll CL20
   Contingency – Cast by Cohort
+3 (Competence) Circlet of Persuasion
+4 (Morale) Heroism Greater – Autocasted
-10 Rushed
=+66

Use Magic Device
23 Ranks
13 Charisma
+2 Sinergy – Spellcraft
+2 Sinergy – Decipher Script
= 40 (DC for CL20 Scrolls)

Consumables for each Divine Rank
x4  Moment of Prescience (2 Standard+2Backup) CL20 Scroll: 4.000gp x4=16.000gp
x1 Candle of Invocation 9.000gp
Overall: 25.000gp

#1:  Ehlonna Sense Motive:+45 / Vs Bluff: 85, Diplomacy: 65
PC DvR: - Bluff: 102 Diplomacy: 67
> 1° Divine Rank, Salient Divine Ability: Divine Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Wealth Remaining 553.000gp

#2 Heroneous Sense Motive:+45 / Vs Bluff: 85, Diplomacy: 65
PC DvR: 1 Bluff: 103 Diplomacy: 79
> 2° Divine Rank, Salient Divine Ability: Divine Skill Focus (Bluff), Wealth Remaining 527.000gp

#3 Dennari Sense Motive:+49 / Vs Bluff: 89, Diplomacy: 69
PC DvR: 2 Bluff: 116 Diplomacy: 82
> 3° Divine Rank, Salient Divine Ability: Alter Reality (Cha30 without the cloak) Wealth Remaining 501.000gp

#4 Morandin Sense Motive:+51 / Vs Bluff: 91, Diplomacy: 71
PC DvR: 3 Bluff: 118 Diplomacy: 84
> 4° Divine Rank, Scroll cost for addressing a Deity is eliminated by Alter Reality wish-like SDA

#5-17 St. Chubert Sense Motive:+100 / Vs Bluff: 140, Diplomacy: 122
PC DvR: 16 (Gains Always Maximize Roll) Bluff: 163 Diplomacy: 126
> 17° Divine Rank – Now has enough power to address even evil gods. – Final Divine Rank: 27 (=Number of gods into the pantheon).

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks
Post by: nijineko on February 05, 2014, 11:12:13 AM

Quote from: altpersona on February 01, 2014, 12:46:10 PM

Quote from: SorO_Lost on February 01, 2014, 10:12:23 AM

Diplomacy.
Seriously, with a high enough check even Ao becomes your best buddy and you can burrow a couple of Divine Ranks.

If you want a more within-the-rules attempt, there is an epic PrC for True Dragons that grants a Divine Rank. Other than befriending/cloning/said_PrC, you can run with the lore. Enough people believe you're a deity and poof, you are. See also Greeks, Persians, etc.

do you mean Dragon Ascendant?

has a req of bab +30, i thought bab stopped at 20 unless you got it higher (idk how) prior to ecl 20?

DA also dosnt mention 'divine rank' it says 'quasi-deity', the ability listing is Immortality. it sorta sucks, like you could just be a warforged or necrop or elemental and again its capstone ability from jump.

dragons, among other creatures, are not limited to a 20 BAB.

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks - Illumian Bluff/Diplomancer
Post by: sirpercival on February 05, 2014, 02:41:50 PM

Dragon Ascendant: Kensai BAB donation.

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks - Illumian Bluff/Diplomancer
Post by: 7h39 on February 05, 2014, 03:39:08 PM

(click to show/hide)

Immortality (Ex): A 12th-level dragon ascendant is actually a quasi-deity, and can no longer die from natural causes. It does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe. It can still be slain in physical or magical combat, and it is still subject to death from massive damage.

(click to show/hide)

Rank 0
Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores that are far above the norm for their species. They may have some worshipers. Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank altogether.

Ok DivineRank 0 give the character divine-ranking (lol) but nothing in fact of divine abilities (maximized hit dice, i guess), underpowered but al least 100% rawish.

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks - Illumian Bluff/Diplomancer
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 05, 2014, 04:39:23 PM

Clearly I mis-remembered that.  Sorry.
I was close with a DvR but not the right number.
DvR 0 , not DvR 1.
DvR 0 , is not the same as No DvR at all.
_{silly kitty avatar}

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks - Illumian Bluff/Diplomancer
Post by: 7h39 on February 11, 2014, 12:47:23 AM

Re-view on diplomacy: it's a opposed check diplomacy against diplomacy as the bluff against sense motive one, but not benefits from the sense motive vs bluff modifiers. maybe something should be changed in previous builds.

Btw, enjoy your 27 DvR Character by ECL 10

Early Divinity

Venerable Magic-Blooded Unseelie Fey Lesser Aasimar
Marshal 1 / Warlock 1 / Cleric 1 (Charm Domain, Mind Domain) / Monk 1 / Warchief 2 / Tattoed Monk 3 / Dragon Devotee 1

Ability Scores
For   8/-1 (16Pb   -6Age -2 Unseelie Fey)
Dex   6/-2 (10Pb -6Age +2 Unseelie Fey)
Cos   6/-2 (14Pb  -6Age -2 Unseelie Fey)
Int   9/-1 (6Pb +3Age)
Wis   9/-1 (8Pb +3Age -2Magic Blooded)
cha   40/+15 (18Pb +3Age +2Aasimar +2Magic Blooded +2Unseelie Fey +2Lv4Lv8 +6 Cloak of Charisma (Enhancement, Changed to Luck by Artificer Cohort Item Alteration infusion) +1 Tome of Charisma (Inherent) +2 Warchief2 +2 Dragon Devotee1)

Feats: Lv1:Skill Focus: Bluff, Marshall1: Skill Focus: Diplomacy, Lv3: OPEN SLOT, Lv6: Leadership (Artificer Cohort Lv8) Lv9: OPEN SLOT

WBL 49.000mo: Manual of Charisma: 28000 + Cloak of Charisma (crafted by Artificer Cohort) 18000 Circlet of Persuasion (crafted by Artificer Cohort) 2000  = 48000gp

Wealth from followers: Leadership Score: 10+15=25: Tithe 20%: 45.000gp
8th Cohort         27.000gp
1st 135      900gpx135   121.500gp
2nd 13      2000gpx13   26.000gp
3th 7      2500gpx7   17.500gp
4th 4      3300gpx4   13.200gp
5th 2      4300gpx2   8.600gp
6th 2      5600gpx2   11.200gp
Total:             225.000gp

Candle Of Invocation: 9000gp x 5: 45.000gp

Charisma Buffing
40 (base) +4 Charm Domain Power: 44/+17
44 +17 Bellflower tatto1 (Enhancement) [Cohort uses Item Alteration on Cloak of Charisma]: 61/+25
61 +25 Bellflower Tatto2 (Enhancement) -17 Bellflower Tatto1 (Enhancement): 69/+29

Diplomacy/Bluff
1 (minimum) Dice
13 Ranks
+29 Cha
+29 Marshall Aura (Circumstance)
+6 Beguiling Influence
+2 Mind Domain
+3 Circlet of Persuasion (Competence)
+2 Masterwork Diplomacy/Bluff Item
= 85
Bluff
+10 Withe Eagle Tattoo
+3 Skill focus: Bluff
= 98
Diplomacy
+3 Skill Focus Diplomacy
-10 Rushed
= 78

Day1 – Round 0: Cohort burns Candle1 to gate Obad-Hai
Obad-Hai Sense Motive:+51, Diplomacy:+47 > Sense Motive: 91, Diplomacy: 67 vs. PC Bluff: 98 Diplomacy: 78
Round 1: Pc Step in and do a Full-round Diplomacy Check (Auto Win)
Round 2: Pc do a Bluff check to induce Deitiy to grant 1 Divine Rank (Auto Win)
> 1° Divine Rank, Salient Divine Ability: Divine Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
Round 3: PC recycles divine rank
Round 4: Cohort burns Candle2 to return to Material Plane

Day2 – Round 0: Cohort burns Candle3 to gate Morandin
Morandin Sense Motive:+51, Diplomacy:+32 > Sense Motive: 91, Diplomacy: 51 vs. PC Bluff: 99 Diplomacy: 90
Round 1: Pc Step in and do a Full-round Diplomacy Check (Auto Win)
Round 2: Pc do a Bluff check to induce Deitiy to grant 1 Divine Rank (Auto Win)
> 2° Divine Rank, Salient Divine Ability: Divine Skill Focus (Bluff)
Round 3: PC recycles divine rank
Round 4: Cohort burns Candle2 to return to Material Plane

Day3 – Round 0: Cohort burns Candle3 to gate Ehlonna
Ehlonna Sense Motive:+42, Diplomacy:+56 > Sense Motive: 82, Diplomacy: 76 vs. PC Bluff:112, Diplomacy: 92
Round 1: Pc Step in and do a Full-round Diplomacy Check (Auto Win)
Round 2: Pc do a Bluff check to induce Deitiy to grant 1 Divine Rank (Auto Win)
> 3° Divine Rank, Salient Divine Ability: Alter Reality (Cha34 without the cloak)
Round 3: PC recicles divine rank
Round 4: PC uses Alter Reality SDA to mimic a gate spell to material Plane

PC uses Alter Reality to reach +5 Inherent Bonus (+4) to CHA

Charisma Buffing
44 (base) +4 Charm: 48/+19
48 +19 Bellflower tatto1 (Enhancement) [Cohort uses Item Alteration on Cloak of Charisma]: 67/+28
61 +28 Bellflower Tatto2 (Enhancement) -17 Bellflower Tatto1 (Enhancement): 76/+33

Diplomacy/Bluff
1 (minimum) Dice
13 Ranks
+33 Cha
+33 Marshall Aura (Circumstance)
+6 Beguiling Influence
+2 Mind Domain
+3 Circlet of Persuasion (Competence)
+2 Masterwork Diplomacy/Bluff Item
= 93
Bluff
+10 WithEagle Tattoo
+3 Skill focus: Bluff
+10 Divine Skill focus
+2N NDivine Rank (Divine spell focus + Divine Bonus)
= 116 +2n
Diplomacy
+3 Skill Focus Diplomacy
-10 Rushed
+10 Divine Skill focus
+2N NDivine Rank (Divine spell focus + Divine Bonus)
= 96 +2n

PC equivalent skill bonuses: Bluff +76 +2n (116 -20 Deity Dice -20 Difficult Bluff), Diplomacy +76 +2n (96 -20 Deitiy Dice)
Actual Divine Rank:3

Remaining Gods to contact: (Neutral or Good, then Evil): Name / Sense Motive skill bonus/ Diplomacy skill bonus
1.   Dennari +49/+60
2.   Kord +54/+29
3.   Pelor +55/+57
4.   Yondalla +56/+68
5.   Corellon Larethian +65/+63
6.   Taiia +68/+68
-------------------------------------------------- PC equivalent skill bonus: 94 (76+18 9DivineRanks)
1.   Wee Jas +77/+43
2.   Elishar +68/+75
3.   Bahmuth: +79/+75
4.   Garl Glittergold +70/+80
5.   Fharlanghn +57/+84
6.   Boccob +59/+85
7.   Heroneous +45/+91
-------------------------------------------------- PC equivalent skill bonus: 108 (76+32 16DivineRanks)
PC has already higher Diplomacy and Bluff skill checks then deities, so he can ask every deity to grant a divine rank and has enough power to address even evil gods.
1.   St. Chthbert +100/+48
2.   Erythnul (Evil): +38/+28
3.   Kurtulmak (Evil) +40/+29
4.   Loth (Evil) +40/+54
5.   Hextor (Evil) +45/+75
6.   Vecna (Evil) +51/+64
7.   Gruumsh (Evil) +52/+31
8.   Olidammara (Chaotic) +66/+48
9.   Toldoth (Evil) +68/+59
10.   Tiamat (Evil) +69/+71
11.   Nerull (Evil) +90/+58
Final Divine Rank: 27 (=Number of gods into the pantheon).

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks - Illumian Bluff/Diplomancer
Post by: nijineko on February 11, 2014, 02:16:52 PM

hmmm, i think you missed the part about divine rank 21. iirc, they can't raise someone above their own level, nor can you exceed divine rank 20 without the consent of an overdeity....

Title: Re: Gaining divine ranks - Illumian Bluff/Diplomancer
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 23, 2014, 03:12:27 PM

 :plot ... so the Breaking The Core build,
might or might not, have to have a pow-wow,
with either or both of the Lady Of Pain and/or AO.