Author Topic: Ancient Temple-ToB for dual wielding with elegance and slicing almost everything  (Read 29289 times)

Offline oslecamo

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Ancient Temple

"The things my Youkai-Forged Blades cannot cut are next to none!"-Youmu Konpaku, Ancient Temple Master


Long ago, a noble woman raised as a ghost after her death. Whitout descendants, she declared she would keep running her lands and demanded all the conforts she enjoyed while alive. Most of her previous servants ran away in fear rather than work under an undead, but her loyal gardeners stood behind and did their best to tend the lady's gardens, serve her meals and tea, maintain the house and even patrol the property in the place of the missing guards. The lady was satisfied with being taken care off by this dedicated servants, and never ventured out from her lands. But the legend arose on how a powerful ghost now ruled the area, and many undeads started converging on it. Despite their loyalty, the gardeners were powerless against many of the undeads since their working tools couldn't hurt them, and  all would have died or worst. But the noble ghost intervened, and gifted her loyal servants with powerfull swords that could slice trough the unholy invaders. The gardeners destroyed all the undeads combining their skill honed from years of cuting plants with their new weapons, and their lady was pleased. Altough she was deeply religious and considered wrong to break the cycle of life by granting them immortality, she did greatly expand their lifespans. As for herself, she said she would one day make peace with the wordly affairs and ascend to nirvana, but that's another story. She stayed in this world, and soon her home became an Ancient Temple, with her previous gardeners as powerful and skilled servants.

The gardeners, blessed with  increased lifes, dedicated themselves to develop a martial art that perfectly blended the elegant cuting of plants with the graceful cuting of those who dared to disturb their mistress lands. Some of them did grew weary of this monotonous life as they worked from dawn to night and weren't even geting paid anymore, leaving their  home to see the world, showing their special skill trough the land. Luckily for them the ghost mistress never atempted to get them back or showed any kind of spite, altough some wonder if she simply doesn't care as long as there's at least one servant taking care of her.

Ancient Temple became well renowed, but few can atempt to learn it tough as no other pair of weapons offer the balance and sharpness of a Youkai-Forged Blades and that's essential for unleashing the maneuvers from this school. And only their ghost mistress seems to be know the secret to get new ones, making many aspiring heroes to travel to her lands. The gardeners left behind always rise their children under this school, creating young martial artists of incredible skill. The favored weapons of this discipline are the Youkai-Forged blades that take the form of one-handed slashing melee weapons. The Discipline Skill is Profession(Gardener), as in order to know how to cut flesh and soul at the same time one must first learn how to gracefully cut trees and flowers. Altough some question if this philosophy is really true, the fact that it's upholded by gardener-warriors with centuries of experience that serve an aparently mad ghost doesn't leave much room for discussion if you wish to learn it.

This school is available only to those who take the Netherworld Gardener feat.

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Youki Konpaku, fabled first master of Ancient Temple.


Maneuvers


1st level

Aceptance of Life and Death: Strike–strike fear on an oponent with one of your swords while cuting out the fear from an ally.
Moment of Eternity: Boost-Fully focus on the task at hand.
200 Hell Realm Flowers in 1 Slash:Strike-Move at extreme speed while slicing a nearby oponent.
Intolerant Avici: Counter–punish oponent that missed an attack against you.
Fasting of the Young Ghost: Stance–partially separate your soul from yourself.

2nd level
Insightful Swords: Strike–release wave of energy from your blades.
Beast Realm Brute Sword: Strike–Combine your slashes with basic combat maneuvers.
Netherworld Reflection Slash: Counter–deflect ranged attacks with your swords.
Karmic Punishment of the Idle and Unfocused : Boost–next sucessful attack on the round may slow oponent, or you hit an ally to get them to work faster.

3rd level
Flashing Slash Formation as Karma Gust: Strike–Move even faster while slicing with both your swords.
Storybook of the Ghost Realm:Stance- divide your soul even more.
Asura Realm Ascension to NirvanaStrike-Smite your target with the beauty from your attacks.
Retribution of the Ten Hungry Kings:Boost- Your blades launch energy slashes

4th level
Mortal Realm Rise from Delusion:Strike–break out from negative condition and strike with both swords.
Flashing Cherry Blossoms: Boost–glowing flower petals fall around you concealing your next move.
Disappearing Elegance: Strike–gracefully vanish out of sight, then slice from impossible angles.
Obsession with the Present World:Boost-All your attacks this turn may confuse your oponents or clear the mind of allies.

5th level
Meditation  of Life Ending Sword: Strike-Attack with both swords, oponent may die if you hit with both, or bring back the recently deceased.
Floral Nirvana: Counter-Remove yourself from reality for a moment.
Ghostly Wheel of Pain:Boost-Turn your soul into a copy from yourself, forming a circle of rebirth.
God's Flashing Slash as Karma Gust:Strike-move an impossible distance in a moment while slicing all who opose you.

6th level
Tower Watching Blade's Bullet-Cutting Third Eye:Counter-block an enemy attack by striking even harder.
Five Signs of the Dying Deva:Strike–Your blows reveal your oponent's doom, stripping them of their defenses.
Delusion of Enlightenment: Stance–Become able to shoot waves of energy with all your attacks.
Slashing a Flower Upon One's Head:Strike-Cut only what must be cut, traping an  oponent or freeing an ally.

7th level
Displeasure of the Seven Sins-Boost-Purify yourself to remove all ill effects.
Slash Clearing the Six Senses: Strike–Ignore the illusions of reality to strike at your target's true core.
Approaching Disillusion :Strike- Slash the boundaries of reality itself around you, creating dangerous rifts.

8th level

Attainment of Eternal Truth:Boost-See everything as it truly is, then close the gap with your target.
Deva Realm's God Swords: Stance–Pour your soul into your blades, greatly strenghtening them.
Slash of The Eternity: Strike- Attack oponent with both blades, attacks keeps repeating themselves untill one of you is defeated.
Secret of Life and Death:Strike-Utterly destroy your oponent, or bring back those who passed away.

9th level
Six Realms Ageless Obsession:Stance–Enter the border between life and death to attain extreme power, cannot keep it for long.
Paschal Moon-Reflecting Satellite Slash:Strike-Clear all obstacles in your path before striking with the power of the moon.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 07:56:02 PM by oslecamo »

Offline oslecamo

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Maneuvers explanations:

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« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 11:18:08 PM by oslecamo »

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Reserved for now.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 06:39:19 PM by oslecamo »

Offline oslecamo

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New feats added ("base", tactical, Youmu Yuyuko yuri Ancient Temple+Border of Life and one more because why not). Also cleaned up a bit and added new images to the base maneuvers.

Now with that out of the way, on to review Desire Drive and the Hermit, weee

Offline Anomander

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« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 06:06:08 AM by Anomander »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Feat: Mystic Dream
I think the extra offhand iteratives should stop at two weapon fighting or improved two-weapon fighting equivalence. It otherwise jumps all the way to Perfect+ TWF, which should be more expensive than that.
Since it would qualify as such, the player could then opt to get the Improved/Greater and Perfect TWF feats for better full attacks if he what he wants them.
Even without the extra iterative attacks, this feat is an amazing first step to initiating AT maneuvers with the utmost efficiency since all you need two execute them well is make those two attacks.

Because having to spend four three feats to get extra attacks at a penalty and dealing inferior damage is a good thing? :huh

You're kind of locked into using two weapons for the entirety of this school anyway, and you need Netherworld Gardener to take Mystic Dream, plus you can never get better weaponry... and you're complaining about full iterative attacks with them?

Let's say your weapons are a kukri and a longsword. That's 1d4 and 1d8 damage, or 2-12 + 2x strength mod. For the sake of argument, strength mod +5. If you don't crit and manage to hit both times at level 6, that's 4-24 + 20. 24-48.

Level 6 wizard can use Combust and Quickened Combust. That's 12d6, so 12 to 72. Oh, and it's a touch attack that bypasses all DR (and I'm fairly sure that if they've got enough Intelligence and bonus slots, Searing Spell can be added so it bypasses fire resistance). Now, the thing is, assuming an average roll, that's 42.

I am not seeing the problem, here. You seem to be advocating either that a full attack is too much or using maneuvers involving two strikes should be harder, because... you can do a nasty bit of damage if both attacks hit? :/

Offline Anomander

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Because having to spend four three feats to get extra attacks at a penalty and dealing inferior damage is a good thing? :huh
I often did it. In this case there would be no penalty and no inferior damage because Mystic Dream removes them. Makes those feats even more attractive to those who'd want them.

You're kind of locked into using two weapons for the entirety of this school anyway
No really a problem. Most classes offer at least one other discipline and you can bring a backup weapon for those when you're not doing AT tricks.

and you need Netherworld Gardener to take Mystic Dream
Netherworld Gardener is a great feat by itself. Free indestructible ghost touch weapons that count as light, can use power attack with them even if they are light and it is already the excuse to make the entire school more powerful than the norm. Two feats to get the equivalence of TWF and Improved TWF with a bunch of additional goodies and the possibility to qualify for greater TWF and Perfect TWF seems far from a bad trade, even if its only for the two weapons you'd only use anyway.

Plus you can never get better weaponry... and you're complaining about full iterative attacks with them?
You can still enchant the weapons and customize them for your needs. I'm not complaining, just giving suggestions.

(click to show/hide)

I am not seeing the problem, here. You seem to be advocating either that a full attack is too much or using maneuvers involving two strikes should be harder, because... you can do a nasty bit of damage if both attacks hit? :/
I have no idea how you came to that second conclusion.
I am saying that the feat accomplishes its main selling point without a guaranteed double set of attacks (notice I didn't say all the iterative attacks should be remove, just some of them), which is being better at Ancient Temple maneuvers. Ancient Temple isn't about making fullattack actions, its making two strong attacks connect. That feat accomplishes that and is a decent prerequisite feat for the incredibly powerful tactical feat that follows it.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 01:40:29 PM by Anomander »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Uh... at the first and third points? GTWF and PTWF don't do anything extra (GTWF gives a third attack and PTWF specifies as many attacks as your main hand), so saying that it's good to take them afterwards makes no sense. They do nothing. Nada. Take up space unless you want to ignore the entire school over here. Well, the third point, the first one appears to be 'someone that wants to use two weapons would take feats all about using two weapons, and something that doesn't take up four feats to do so would be attractive.' Now, maybe you would take those feats if you wanted the benefits outside of an Ancient Temple stance... but to do that you need ITWF as well, which is a grand total of five feats, BAB 11+, and 25 Dexterity.

Quote
They feel like natural extensions of your body, allowing you to treat them both as light weapons whenever it would be benefical for you, while still being able to power attack with them. Altough they cannot be enchanted, they're indestructible, benefit from a permanent ghost touch effect, and count as magic for bypassing DR.

Okay, you have Ghost Touch. Congratulations. There's also the ability to bypass DR/Magic. Also congratulations. Adamantine armour. DR /Magic and X. DR /Silver. DR /Cold Iron. This will cease to be an amazing benefit after the early levels, when everyone can get the stuff. I don't know... they seem nice, but not absolutely amazing, and you're going to lose a lot of abilities you've invested in if you change weapons (plus Mystic Dream, which this is about, is no use).

Level of investment for the Combust scenario: Quicken Spell is admittedly waaaaay too high up (and I will admit part of that is me remembering the level adjustment wrong), but I'm not doubting that there's a way to get it ridiculously low like that. You also need to remember there that investing in a metamagic feat doesn't give you precisely one trick. Mystic Dream only makes you better at hitting things. So... resource investment is really screwy for that one. Basically: I screwed up on the maths, but TWF improvement for a feat as opposed to the wider benefits of metamagic... umm... yeah, and that's only focusing on direct damage (and if you want to rearrange things so that's not an issue: Ocular Spell. Two ranged touch attacks in one round. And you can apply Searing Spell to that. Don't even need to be by the enemy!)

... I still don't get it. You're saying you should spend four feats, one requiring extremely high dexterity, to have the option of dealing as much damage as a guy wielding a greatsword (the difference is 0.5x your strength mod, which is going to be considerably lower as a side effect of the dexterity requirement), because the discipline rarely uses full attacks? :huh

The TWF tree always looks too long to me. Four feats, you have to invest more in weaponry, and you have a constant attack penalty. :/
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 02:05:01 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline Anomander

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The idea was that it would still work as Improved TWF, giving a second attack, so GTWF and PTWF would grant the third and fourth+ attacks for the offhand. I don't see how you read it for it to make no sense.

To make the feats mechanically easier to get in and for how they behave with other weapons, a good mechanic would be to simply have it behave like TWF for requirements and make it grant one extra attack with the two blades at BAB 6 with either weapon (since it doesn't really matter which hand wears which weapon).
This way you get an extra attack and get even more if you invest in the rest of the TWF tree, which would work with all weapons.

Aye, they cannot get enhancements normally. Ghost touch and magic type aren't meant to be a highlight. The real use of the feat is making the entire school stronger, which is well worth the investment.

Mystic Dream makes you better at hitting things and a bit more damage, but connecting those two hits is what makes the maneuvers stronger. Its not just about making better hits. And again, it also gives you access to the greater tactical feat.
Its kind of a much better version of Weapon Focus (Youkai-Forged blades).

The way to get quicken that low for a wizard is quite expensive and not all that appealing (for Combust anyway).
I know the uses of metamagics, and it does not compare well with TFW feats because the metas affect the potency of spellcasting, a class ability. Don't compare them with the feats on their own, looking only at a few basic attacks without any class abilities, items and any synergy whatsoever.

I'm not here to explain how TFW can own the battlefield outside of the AT school or teach my combos. I'm not saying that because the discipline rarely uses full attacks you should invest in those feats either. It just could be an option for those who want big full attacks between maneuver uses.

You're also counting those as four feats, which would include Netherworld Gardener and Mystic Dream and GTWF & PTWF, the first two doing more than just being substitutes for TWF and ITWF. The alternative I suggested above alleviates the issue either way.

He can keep it as is or not, I really don't care. It's just a suggestion. I'm not raising a crusade over it and have nothing else to say on that matter.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 07:33:16 PM by Anomander »

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Geez, I stay away for a work week and suddenly a bunch of comments on my hombrew pile up. :p


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« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 03:54:38 AM by Anomander »

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« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 04:11:03 AM by Anomander »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Also, you didn't leave me the impression that when you DM you'd be going easy and avoid those kind of tricks against the PCs. Why should any other do?

Because not every group would be able to handle those sorts of things? Because after the first time it gets really, really dull. And honestly, if they aren't avoiding those tricks, why let the Wizard be the only one that can handle them?

Offline Anomander

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Glad to see we are in agreement.

Offline oslecamo

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Offline Raineh Daze

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Tower Watching Blade's Bullet-Cutting Third Eye
...Not sure you follow. You called the soul thing "Separated Soul".
It is always with you. The maneuver says: "You may initiate this counter whenever an opponent would harm you or any ally whitin sight. If it was an ally, you can move up to twice your movement speed (including trough the air even if you cannot normaly fly) in their direction."
Since the soul thing that is always with you would count as an ally, if you are attacked by an AoE the soul thingie would of course be affected too, which means that can always double move to the enemy to make attacks, getting a fullround's worth of action to waste the action of an opponent despite the clause meant to have it only activate when real allies are being harmed, as in, your party members.

Is this an argument based upon declaring part of yourself your own ally? That's easily avoided. :/

Quote
Either way, it doesn't address the critical issue with this stance, which is infinite maneuvers. Everything else it grants is more than what should have been sufficient. That thing shouldn't exist in any form, even if the daze was prolonged by an additional round for each time the Mishap got rolled (which would serve as a more proper cooldown between uses, by the way).

Maximum number of maneuvers useable in three rounds, barring factors that grant extra actions from other sources: nine, with the boosts and counters this allows. Only three of them are going to be taking actions, so that's three attacks, plus six boosts or counters.

Isn't it possible to get that many spells in a single round?

Offline Anomander

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As soon as it also counts as an unseen servant, it kinda is but I see your point.

Maximum number of maneuvers useable in three rounds, barring factors that grant extra actions from other sources: nine, with the boosts and counters this allows. Only three of them are going to be taking actions, so that's three attacks, plus six boosts or counters.
Isn't it possible to get that many spells in a single round?

Without depending on feats and barring factors that grant extra actions from other sources than spells? I do not know, I do not recall ever seeing a spell that makes it possible to use a bunch of non-depleting spells in a single round.
This one is also designed to be repeatable again and again while a spellcaster that manages to spend the resources to pull a similar result is still limited by its spells per day.
What is really broken in it is that it makes it easy to use the same maneuvers over and over again without recovery. These maneuvers only barely pass as not utter broken in that they aren't being used in succession and that there is a little gap between uses that allows some form of vulnerability and some kind of variety in the attack patterns.
If it granted free boosts and counters that are still limited by your number of readied maneuvers, it wouldn't such an issue.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Arcane Spellsurge, Twin Spell, Repeat Spell, Quicken Spell, and Rapid Metamagic (for a sorcerer). Chuck on a bunch of stuff to bring the level costs down. High Charisma. Using four spells, you can get something like a dozen things out in two rounds. @_@


Oh, and Arcane Fusion. Nearly forgot that.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 03:35:42 PM by Raineh Daze »