Min/Max Boards

Creative Corner => New Mechanics and Subsystems => Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) => Oslecamo's Improved Monster Classes => Topic started by: oslecamo on September 25, 2017, 07:51:27 AM

Title: Miniature Creature
Post by: oslecamo on September 25, 2017, 07:51:27 AM
Miniature Creature
(https://imgur.com/3yRMj6t.jpg)
Prerequisites:
-Must be a creature that runs, climbs and/or swims a LOT.
-No levels of Titanic Creature.

Special:
-If you take any levels of Miniature Creature, you cannot take any levels of Titanic Creature.

HD:d4
Level Bab Fort Ref Will Feature
1+0 +0+2+0Miniature Body, Smaller is Sweeter, +1 Dex, +1 Cha
2+1 +0+3+0Size Matters?,  Smaller is Sweeter, +1 Dex, +1 Cha
3+2 +1+3+1Size Matters?,  Smaller is Sweeter, +1 Dex, +1 Cha
4+3 +1+4+1Size Matters?,  Smaller is Sweeter, +1 Dex, +1 Cha
5+3 +1+4+1Size Matters?,  Smaller is Sweeter, +1 Dex, +1 Cha
6+4 +2+5+2Size Matters?,  Smaller is Sweeter, +1 Dex, +1 Cha
7+5 +2+5+2Size Matters?,  Smaller is Sweeter, +1 Dex, +1 Cha
8+6 +2+6+2Size Matters?,  Smaller is Sweeter, +1 Dex, +1 Cha
9+6 +3+6+3Size Matters?,  Smaller is Sweeter, +1 Dex, +1 Cha
10+7+3+7+3Size Matters?, Smaller is Sweeter, +1 Dex, +1 Cha
11+8+3+7+3Size Matters?,  Smaller is Sweeter, +1 Dex, +1 Cha
12+9+4+8+4Size Matters?,  Smaller is Sweeter, +1 Dex, +1 Cha
13+9+4+8+4Size Matters?,  Smaller is Sweeter, +1 Dex, +1 Cha
Skills:6+int modifier per level, x4 if taken at first level.
Class Skills: Appraise, Balance, Climb, Diplomacy, Jump, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Move Silently, Perform (any), Spot, Swim, Survival, Tumble.

Proficiencies:A Miniature creature gains no new Proficiencies

Features:
Miniature Body: If the Miniature creature was bigger than small, it shrinks to small size. Natural weapon damage is unchanged. If you're already smaller than small or become so due to Miniature Creature, your always have a melee reach of at least 5 feet minimum.


Smaller is Sweeter: At each level of Miniature creature, it can pick one of the following options. You can only pick each once unless noticed otherwise
(click to show/hide)

Ability Score Increase: The Miniature Creature gains +1 Dex and +1 Cha at each level, for a total of +13 Dex and +13 Cha at  13th level.

Size Matters?: Starting at 2nd, the Miniature Creature picks one of the following options at each level. Unless otherwise noticed, each can only be picked one time and used once every 1d4 rounds, as the Miniature creature recover its breath. Alternatively pick another from Smaller is Sweeter

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Minniature Creature
Post by: neriractor on September 26, 2017, 11:44:35 AM
In Loveable Presence it says the ability affects creatures smaller that yourself instead of bigger as I'm sure was intended  :)

otherwise it seems like a great counterpart to the titanic creature (Which is incidentally one of my favorite classes of your making). I think that this class would benefit from a way to make one of its main stats (Cha and Dex) into hit points, specially since it has a small hit die and the titanic creature gets Con to AC while it also governs hit points, also the titanic creature has arguably better offensive capabilities in addition to the better defenses.
Title: Re: Minniature Creature
Post by: Nanshork on September 26, 2017, 02:39:36 PM
I think it needs a way to have a minimum of 5' reach or a way to go into the space of a larger creature without provoking AoOs.

The latter would probably fit the class better.
Title: Re: Minniature Creature
Post by: neriractor on September 26, 2017, 04:16:27 PM
I think it needs a way to have a minimum of 5' reach or a way to go into the space of a larger creature without provoking AoOs.

The latter would probably fit the class better.

the shrink ability from the smaller is sweeter list states that melee reach is always 5 feet at minimum
Title: Re: Minniature Creature
Post by: Nanshork on September 26, 2017, 04:21:44 PM
I think it needs a way to have a minimum of 5' reach or a way to go into the space of a larger creature without provoking AoOs.

The latter would probably fit the class better.

the shrink ability from the smaller is sweeter list states that melee reach is always 5 feet at minimum

Well look at that, I missed it.  Carry on then!
Title: Re: Minniature Creature
Post by: DavidWL on September 26, 2017, 10:43:15 PM
Good to keep seeing your work!

Random thoughts...

Quote
Improved Precision-Double the range of your single-target attacks (including melee reach if you’re targeting a single creatures) and increase any of their DCs by 1 (). You can pick this multiple times, it stacks, but no more times than you picked Shrink.

In some of the below there are abilities that seem counter-intuitive, but typically they are allowing an already existing ability to function, rather than giving a new one.

Getting smaller doesn't seem to obviously increase the range of abilities...  increasing DC, making it harder to resist, ignoring immunities, making it harder to heal, etc. all seem more intuitively appealing.

Quote
Stable Step-The Miniature creature is well used to standing on others, even when the others are moving or fighting. The Miniature Creature can stand on bigger creatures as if they were normal terrain, including being moved with it

Very cool.  This would make a great class for a familiar for a wizard ...

Wizend, the Wonderful Wizzard has a pet dire wolf (tiny size) who lives in his pocket ...


Quote
Little Step-Your carrying capacities count as if you were medium sized. You can pick this option multiple times, each extra one counting as one size larger for the purpose of carrying stuff, but no more times than you picked Shrink.

Maybe call this "Ant Strength"?

Quote
Roll with it- If you’re attacked by a bigger creature or an area effect bigger than yourself, then you can move out of reach/range of the ability after it is resolved (unless you end up unable to move). You can take this a second time, in which case if you would suffer an ill effect from a bigger creature whitout save, you can attempt a normal Reflex save with DC 10+1/2 HD of the attacker +Attacker’s highest stat mod to fully resist it.

Is this an immediate action?  Does this use up your next move action?  Or is it a free action that you can do as needed? 

If you move, where are you moved?  Do you get to pick? 

Is there any limit to the kinds of effects?  Would this work on a disintegration spell?

Quote
Loveable Presence-Whenever you attack or run, creatures smaller whitin 30 feet of your path must suceed on a Will save with DC 10+1/2 HD+Cha mod or become fascinated for 1d12 rounds. If they fail the save by 5 or more they become charmed instead. If they fail the save by 10 or more they become dominated instead. They take a -1 penalty on the save for each size category they're bigger than you. If you have 13 or more HD, even creatures normally immune can be affected, but they gain a +5 bonus on their saves.

Do they have to keep rolling if you keep attacking?
 
Quote
Nibble-You can attack once whitout counting as attacking for the purpose of stealth abilities such as hiding or being invisible, breaking fascination and the like.

Cool ability.  How exactly does it work?  For example, if you take this twice, does this mean you can attack twice per round?  Or that you can attack twice between spending an action to hide again?

Quote
Latch On-As an immediate action you can grab on to a passing adjacent creature bigger than you and let yourself be carried until you let go. If somebody wants to get rid of you it takes a standard action for an opposed Str check, apply no size modifiers since you squeeze yourself flat to your ride, so the smaller you are the harder it is to get a grasp, making up for mass difference. You can take this multiple times, each extra one increases the range you can use this by 20 feet.

The first time you take this, does the creature have to be adjacent?  Or within 20 feet?


Quote
Problem is that usually small creatures in fantasy are just really good sneakers or simply overcome the limitations of their size, so not a lot of inspiration around. Ended up focusing more on defensive and evasive abilities. Also moeness because small is cute.

I'm open for other ideas and may add more if I get any more.

I agree ... not as much myth built around the small ...

Some thoughts:
* If you are small enough (Fine sized?) you can heal disease, poisen, etc.?  (Go inside the person ...)
* If you are even smaller (Fine+) then you can heal mental and spiritual maladies?
* You can speak with (animals, rocks, elements, etc.)
* If you are small enough, you are immune to trample, bull rush, disarm, etc.  (Too small to trample or bull rush .. perhaps you can't trample a grain of sand ....)
* You are particularly discerning (bonus to spot, listen, ...) ... perhaps even getting something like true seeing.
* There are ideas of small people being crafters (and making shoes or magical things) ... perhaps another ability you could take after taking small picture?

Just throwing things out there ... take whatever seems promising.

As always, thanks for your work!

Best
David
Title: Re: Minniature Creature
Post by: Versatility_Nut on September 27, 2017, 10:37:35 PM
Oh, look, another class that's 70% list choices, 25% ability modifiers and 5% actual static class features! Biggest thing I dislike about that design philosophy of yours, Osle. Mainly because it makes the classes horrendously inconsistent in actual play and a huge pain to generate because you have to make so many choices. You make two choices every single level of this class. Why not have which list you pick from alternate with level, and scale the abilities around that? Makes it less of a headache to make use of. Particularly with character sheet space saved by halving list choices.

Why not have some basic problem mitigation included in the baseline class? Like lowering size penalties? More important for Titanic Creature, who needs quite a bit of AC bonus over standard entities to get the same overall AC, but being smol has issues of its own, mechanically.

Edit: More constructively, Size Matters? could have some Skirmish-like abilities. Getting various bonuses if you move more than some specific fraction of the fastest move speed you've used this round, like getting Evasion/Improved Evasion, Uncanny Dodge or improved critical hit range. Something else to look into is precision damage.
Title: Re: Minniature Creature
Post by: oslecamo on September 27, 2017, 11:23:27 PM
In Loveable Presence it says the ability affects creatures smaller that yourself instead of bigger as I'm sure was intended  :)
Fixed.

otherwise it seems like a great counterpart to the titanic creature (Which is incidentally one of my favorite classes of your making). I think that this class would benefit from a way to make one of its main stats (Cha and Dex) into hit points, specially since it has a small hit die and the titanic creature gets Con to AC while it also governs hit points, also the titanic creature has arguably better offensive capabilities in addition to the better defenses.
Thing is Dex already affects a lot of important stuff. Two defenses (AC and Reflex save), Initiative, ranged combat, multiple skills-great skills like tumble and the stealth ones. Plus being tiny already makes you stealthier too, and as they say can't kill what you can't see.

Cha on the other hand is the dump stat extraordinaire so added Too Cute to Die for using Cha for HP.

Good to keep seeing your work!

Random thoughts...

Quote
Improved Precision-Double the range of your single-target attacks (including melee reach if you’re targeting a single creatures) and increase any of their DCs by 1 (). You can pick this multiple times, it stacks, but no more times than you picked Shrink.

In some of the below there are abilities that seem counter-intuitive, but typically they are allowing an already existing ability to function, rather than giving a new one.

Getting smaller doesn't seem to obviously increase the range of abilities...  increasing DC, making it harder to resist, ignoring immunities, making it harder to heal, etc. all seem more intuitively appealing.
I want to avoid a direct mirror with Titanic creature that already has Overwhelm. Added Diminutive Danger and Small Slice.

Quote
Stable Step-The Miniature creature is well used to standing on others, even when the others are moving or fighting. The Miniature Creature can stand on bigger creatures as if they were normal terrain, including being moved with it

Very cool.  This would make a great class for a familiar for a wizard ...

Wizend, the Wonderful Wizzard has a pet dire wolf (tiny size) who lives in his pocket ...


Quote
Little Step-Your carrying capacities count as if you were medium sized. You can pick this option multiple times, each extra one counting as one size larger for the purpose of carrying stuff, but no more times than you picked Shrink.

Maybe call this "Ant Strength"?

Done.
Quote
Roll with it- If you’re attacked by a bigger creature or an area effect bigger than yourself, then you can move out of reach/range of the ability after it is resolved (unless you end up unable to move). You can take this a second time, in which case if you would suffer an ill effect from a bigger creature whitout save, you can attempt a normal Reflex save with DC 10+1/2 HD of the attacker +Attacker’s highest stat mod to fully resist it.

Is this an immediate action?  Does this use up your next move action?  Or is it a free action that you can do as needed? 

If you move, where are you moved?  Do you get to pick? 

Is there any limit to the kinds of effects?  Would this work on a disintegration spell?
-No action, can do as needed (basic concept is that you just "surf" along the effect).
-Your choice as long as you end right outside of the range/area, clarified.
-Anything goes as long as the attacker was bigger or was a bigger area effect.

Quote
Loveable Presence-Whenever you attack or run, creatures smaller whitin 30 feet of your path must suceed on a Will save with DC 10+1/2 HD+Cha mod or become fascinated for 1d12 rounds. If they fail the save by 5 or more they become charmed instead. If they fail the save by 10 or more they become dominated instead. They take a -1 penalty on the save for each size category they're bigger than you. If you have 13 or more HD, even creatures normally immune can be affected, but they gain a +5 bonus on their saves.

Do they have to keep rolling if you keep attacking?
Good point, added 1-minute "immunity". Also to the Titanic Creature's fearsome presence.



Quote
Nibble-You can attack once whitout counting as attacking for the purpose of stealth abilities such as hiding or being invisible, breaking fascination and the like.

Cool ability.  How exactly does it work?  For example, if you take this twice, does this mean you can attack twice per round?  Or that you can attack twice between spending an action to hide again?
Can only be picked once unless otherwise noticed.


Quote
Latch On-As an immediate action you can grab on to a passing adjacent creature bigger than you and let yourself be carried until you let go. If somebody wants to get rid of you it takes a standard action for an opposed Str check, apply no size modifiers since you squeeze yourself flat to your ride, so the smaller you are the harder it is to get a grasp, making up for mass difference. You can take this multiple times, each extra one increases the range you can use this by 20 feet.

The first time you take this, does the creature have to be adjacent?  Or within 20 feet?
Adjacent.

Quote
Problem is that usually small creatures in fantasy are just really good sneakers or simply overcome the limitations of their size, so not a lot of inspiration around. Ended up focusing more on defensive and evasive abilities. Also moeness because small is cute.

I'm open for other ideas and may add more if I get any more.

I agree ... not as much myth built around the small ...

Some thoughts:
* If you are small enough (Fine sized?) you can heal disease, poisen, etc.?  (Go inside the person ...)
* If you are even smaller (Fine+) then you can heal mental and spiritual maladies?
* You can speak with (animals, rocks, elements, etc.)
* If you are small enough, you are immune to trample, bull rush, disarm, etc.  (Too small to trample or bull rush .. perhaps you can't trample a grain of sand ....)
* You are particularly discerning (bonus to spot, listen, ...) ... perhaps even getting something like true seeing.
* There are ideas of small people being crafters (and making shoes or magical things) ... perhaps another ability you could take after taking small picture?

Just throwing things out there ... take whatever seems promising.

As always, thanks for your work!

Best
David
Nice ideas, added Micro Medic, Fine View and Fine Craft!

Oh, look, another class that's 70% list choices, 25% ability modifiers and 5% actual static class features! Biggest thing I dislike about that design philosophy of yours, Osle. Mainly because it makes the classes horrendously inconsistent in actual play and a huge pain to generate because you have to make so many choices. You make two choices every single level of this class. Why not have which list you pick from alternate with level, and scale the abilities around that? Makes it less of a headache to make use of. Particularly with character sheet space saved by halving list choices.
Guilty. :blush

But well as pointed out this is supposed to be a counterpart to the Titanic creature, and most people here appreciated the way that one was designed, and I just like to make big lists of choices now and then. In particular after making a no-choice class like the Steelwing.

Why not have some basic problem mitigation included in the baseline class? Like lowering size penalties? More important for Titanic Creature, who needs quite a bit of AC bonus over standard entities to get the same overall AC, but being smol has issues of its own, mechanically.

Edit: More constructively, Size Matters? could have some Skirmish-like abilities. Getting various bonuses if you move more than some specific fraction of the fastest move speed you've used this round, like getting Evasion/Improved Evasion, Uncanny Dodge or improved critical hit range. Something else to look into is precision damage.
Those sound interesting, gonna see about implementing something along those lines once I have more time (you replied just as I was about to make my own post to the previous replies).
Title: Re: Miniature Creature
Post by: oslecamo on November 15, 2017, 08:00:18 PM
Added couple new Size Matters? abilities based on Versatility Nut's suggestions.
Title: Re: Miniature Creature
Post by: VennDygrem on December 13, 2017, 03:38:13 PM
Does Improved Precision specifically allow a tiny or smaller creature with 0 melee reach to have an effective melee reach of 5-ft, as for small/medium creatures? Because doubling zero is still zero. I assume this is the case, as the ability does mention melee attacks, but it might be a good idea to elaborate on. Otherwise, looks good!
Title: Re: Miniature Creature
Post by: oslecamo on December 14, 2017, 12:55:18 AM
Shrink had a clause that you always retain a melee reach of at least 5 feet, moved it to Miniature body so it also applies for creatures that start smaller than small.
Title: Re: Miniature Creature
Post by: Yasahiro on December 17, 2017, 02:16:27 AM
Ugly scratch feels a bit too strong. I mean, it's size categories times cha mod. So even if your damage would be less than 20, if you are fine and your opponent is medium, then all you need is +5 cha mod and you deal 20 on each hit, without having to power attack and immense attack roll. Why not number of size categories plus cha mod?
Title: Re: Miniature Creature
Post by: oslecamo on December 17, 2017, 04:02:37 AM
Ok, in what conditions is that hypothetical build happening?

Because for example a 1st level barbarian is easily dealing 2d6+8 with no power attack either.

You'll need to spend resources becoming diminutive, miniature creature is only average Bab, and then you also need to invest in Cha which doesn't help you with anything else in combat by default.

More in particular, Ugly Scratch specifically doesn't allow you to benefit from any other damage buffs. Got sneak attack or fancy feats/maneuvers or the party's mage magicking you up? Still dealing 20 damage.
Title: Re: Miniature Creature
Post by: Versatility_Nut on December 17, 2017, 04:18:54 AM
Ok, in what conditions is that hypothetical build happening?

Because for example a 1st level barbarian is easily dealing 2d6+8 with no power attack either.

You'll need to spend resources becoming diminutive, miniature creature is only average Bab, and then you also need to invest in Cha which doesn't help you with anything else in combat by default.

More in particular, Ugly Scratch specifically doesn't allow you to benefit from any other damage buffs. Got sneak attack or fancy feats/maneuvers or the party's mage magicking you up? Still dealing 20 damage.

A bit of a problem arises from the fact that Large and up start becoming common past level 7. Once you're past level 6, most occasions of "fight one strong thing" are going to be Large creatures, with higher levels getting even bigger things. And targeting a hostile with Enlarge Person and the Miniature person with Shrink Person adds two more instances of Charisma modifier whenever relevant.

Edit: Attack spam can also end up an issue, with some builds, though they end up online past the point the game starts falling apart. A big thing is that you do still benefit from a party Mage, who can improve you chance of hitting and make you Charisma bigger. As well as inflate size disparities.
Title: Re: Miniature Creature
Post by: oslecamo on December 17, 2017, 05:23:06 AM
Enlarge Person only works on humanoids and even if it worked on anything, it still is Fort negates, meaning you're better off throwing a save-or-lose than a minor debuff if you're bothering getting so close to the enemy.

Shrink person is too low duration to keep on all the time and can't take you below fine anyway, only the Shrink feature from Miniature creature can do so.

Past level 7 is when uber chargers and whatnot really start coming online. Any attack buffs you can apply to the miniature creature would work for them too and probably be more effective since the uber chargers and sneak attack machines will be easily hitting for more than 20 average damage per hit by then. Cha buffs that work on others are fairly rare.
Title: Re: Miniature Creature
Post by: Yasahiro on December 17, 2017, 06:32:28 AM
I don't know about that. Getting a cloak of charisma +4 is already two more times you add size category to damage there, and it does get crazy with many attacks.
Also it is also problem in my opinion because Ugly Scratch? Just completely bypasses Titanic's Just a Scratch, which was a size based damage reducer, no?
Title: Re: Miniature Creature
Post by: oslecamo on December 17, 2017, 06:51:05 AM
Just a cratch also adds fast healing.

But again, I ask you to present a specific build in a specific level and then compare it with a barbarian or rogue or other classic melee with the same resources, to check if there's truly that much of a difference.
Title: Re: Miniature Creature
Post by: Yasahiro on December 17, 2017, 08:47:38 AM
I mean, any such builds damage is affected by titanic creature's Just a Scratch. Meanwhile Ugly Scratch not only bypasses it, it also hurts such creatures further.

Why not have one just negate the other, and lack the additional punish?

I mean, Miniature creature can technically completely defeat all Titanic creature abilities. By virtue of high dex and small size and the dodge bonus, they are hard to hit for the titanic who would have size penalty to hit too. They can as immediate action misdirect the attack. All the attacks titanic creature has that benefit from size? AoEs that allow saves. Granted, they are fortitude too in some cases but miniature has that ability to move away from damage.

Titanic Creature of same level as Miniature is going to lose if they took the opposite abilities, it might be intended but just saying... and with all miniature levels, Miniature creature gets a free +5 higher cha mod. Even if they had it at +2, that's +7 now. If the titanic creature is at least large, usually bigger as that's the whole point of build? 35 damage per hit. No roll or anything. That's above sneak attack average at level 20.
Title: Re: Miniature Creature
Post by: ketaro on December 17, 2017, 09:35:31 AM
A Titanic Creature with 10 levels in that versus a Miniature Creature of also 10 levels. Plus at least 1 level for base creature the templates are being applied to.

Right off the bat the Titanic creature has like triple the HP of the Miniature one.
(Except in the case of Mini being able to pick up Cha to HP but that should definitely be rethought about being allowed because oh my gosh thats like giving wizards more toys to play with in regards to Cha already can be applied to literally everything ever forever it is the one single Ability Score that does not need help. Charisma is the Wizard of Stats. Give 'em a d6 to offset that if we could kick it off the list -_-')

Going over both right now, if we ignore equipment in the supposed builds.....
The Mini catches up on damage with Ugly Scratch being about on par with the damage output of the Giant.
The Mini would usually have higher AC, but in a negligible amount of only 1-2 points on average.
All the Save bonuses from either are countered evenly by the Save penalties from the other.
But, as currently written, Just a Scratch technically isn't DR as DnD defines DR so Ugly Scratch doesn't counter it so this particular Mini creature example is only doing 50% damage or so per hit.

None of this counts active abilities from the Size Matters lists of both classes.
Title: Re: Miniature Creature
Post by: oslecamo on December 17, 2017, 09:39:41 AM
I mean, any such builds damage is affected by titanic creature's Just a Scratch. Meanwhile Ugly Scratch not only bypasses it, it also hurts such creatures further.

Why not have one just negate the other, and lack the additional punish?
Because still fast healing and Just a Scratch should be quite more useful against non-miniature creatures while Ugly Scratch doesn't help the detail of having a puny d4 HD.

I mean, Miniature creature can technically completely defeat all Titanic creature abilities. By virtue of high dex and small size and the dodge bonus, they are hard to hit for the titanic who would have size penalty to hit too. They can as immediate action misdirect the attack. All the attacks titanic creature has that benefit from size? AoEs that allow saves. Granted, they are fortitude too in some cases but miniature has that ability to move away from damage.
At the top of my head, Looks edible negates pretty much all of those problems since this is 1x1 final destination no items fox only and thus there's nobody else to misdirect the attack, neither will it be a second attack for Tiny Trickery, and a Dex/Cha build will still lose grapples to a Str build even if you're ignoring the size penalties. Once you're grappled can't roll with it.

Or since the titanic creature can become much faster with giant step, kiting's also an option.

Titanic Creature of same level as Miniature is going to lose if they took the opposite abilities, it might be intended but just saying... and with all miniature levels, Miniature creature gets a free +5 higher cha mod. Even if they had it at +2, that's +7 now. If the titanic creature is at least large, usually bigger as that's the whole point of build? 35 damage per hit. No roll or anything. That's above sneak attack average at level 20.
Sneak attack alone. But there's also weapon damage and stat damage and magic enhancment and bardic music and maneuvers and whatnot.
Title: Re: Miniature Creature
Post by: Yasahiro on December 17, 2017, 12:56:13 PM
A Titanic Creature with 10 levels in that versus a Miniature Creature of also 10 levels. Plus at least 1 level for base creature the templates are being applied to.

Right off the bat the Titanic creature has like triple the HP of the Miniature one.
(Except in the case of Mini being able to pick up Cha to HP but that should definitely be rethought about being allowed because oh my gosh thats like giving wizards more toys to play with in regards to Cha already can be applied to literally everything ever forever it is the one single Ability Score that does not need help. Charisma is the Wizard of Stats. Give 'em a d6 to offset that if we could kick it off the list -_-')

Going over both right now, if we ignore equipment in the supposed builds.....
The Mini catches up on damage with Ugly Scratch being about on par with the damage output of the Giant.
The Mini would usually have higher AC, but in a negligible amount of only 1-2 points on average.
All the Save bonuses from either are countered evenly by the Save penalties from the other.
But, as currently written, Just a Scratch technically isn't DR as DnD defines DR so Ugly Scratch doesn't counter it so this particular Mini creature example is only doing 50% damage or so per hit.

None of this counts active abilities from the Size Matters lists of both classes.

Yes but Ugly Scratch does say miniature creature always does at least minimum of X damage. Is it X damage before or after Just a Scratch reduction?
Title: Re: Miniature Creature
Post by: ketaro on December 17, 2017, 05:43:45 PM
And Fireball always does Xd6.

So what's actually the question here?

Ugly Scratch specifies the three things it overcomes. Just A Scratch isn't any of those things based on its current wording (regardless of actual intent for otherwise)

In its current incarnation, Just A Scratch is more akin to the ability of Swarms to reduce weapon damage based on how small the individual creatures in the Swarm are.

Ugly Scratch doesn't bypass that ability of Swarms either.
Title: Re: Miniature Creature
Post by: oslecamo on December 17, 2017, 06:50:16 PM
Correct, Ugly Scratch only bypasses DR/hardness/regen.
Title: Re: Miniature Creature
Post by: Yasahiro on December 17, 2017, 09:11:59 PM
Nevermind everything I said then
Title: Re: Miniature Creature
Post by: oslecamo on March 04, 2018, 10:50:04 PM
Updated Ant Strength to allow to wield weapons of the same size.