Caster Level = CR

[RobbyPants]

This is a discussion started by Hicks at The Den, with an additional modification by Starmaker. The basic idea is twofold:

1) Your caster level (for all level-dependent variables) equals your Challenge Rating (for most PCs this will be your character level), and

2) The DCs of all of your spells is 10 + 1/2 your HD + your casting stat mod (or possibly base DC on CR, as well).


The effects:

• This makes multiclassing a bit easier. It's effectively an improved version of Practiced Spellcaster for free.
• The scaling DCs make it so a low level caster with lots of non-caster levels can still have relevant DCs.
• Using CR instead of HD is more to help keep monsters from becoming batshit crazy with stuff like Blasphemy.
  
• It makes picking up a single level of a casting class more attractive of a dip to get a few spells per day with good DCs. This isn't necessarily bad, but it might happen.
  
• It's still not powerful enough to justify losing any caster levels in most situations if you're going for pure optimization; it just lessens the blow.
• This is technically a boost to full casters as their DCs for their low level spells improved. The only downside is they'll technically be one point behind on odd-numbered levels.

Alternately, you could use HD instead of CR, but you'd have to rewrite a bunch of spells and take other things into consideration. CR seems like the quickest kludge.


So, what did I miss? Does this have any merit? What are your thoughts?

[sirpercival]

So a PC with CL shenanigans is a very high CR?  I dunno if my UM/ScM for AyeGill's game really qualifies as a CR 60... a real wizard that high could gank him easily.

[phaedrusxy]

So a PC with CL shenanigans is a very high CR?  I dunno if my UM/ScM for AyeGill's game really qualifies as a CR 60... a real wizard that high could gank him easily.

I'm guessing this is a joke... right? It's hard to tell for sure with no emoticon.

I think it's a good house rule. It is one I'd considered myself, but left out because I didn't want to bog down my players with yet another one (I have quite a list...).

[sirpercival]

No, not a joke.  Compare my ECL 16 UM/ScM and his CL of 60 for most spells with a straight Wiz 60.  That's 44 levels worth of hit dice, saves, stat boosts, feats, and >9th-level spell slots that he doesn't have.

[Agita]

So a PC with CL shenanigans is a very high CR?  I dunno if my UM/ScM for AyeGill's game really qualifies as a CR 60... a real wizard that high could gank him easily.

No, he said your caster level equals your CR, not your CR equals your caster level. It's a variable definition, not a mathematical equation.
It may or may not also be intended to outright hard-cap your caster level to your CR; I've seen that kind of houserule too before, and it worked fairly well.

[sirpercival]

oooooh.  OK.  I misread that, clearly.

Now the question is, what about feats, class features, items, etc. that affect your caster level?  Can they raise it above your CR?  So in my example of an ECL 16 Wiz 5/Knight of the Weave 1/Ultimate Magus 7/Shadowcraft Mage 3, what are the various CLs?

[RobbyPants]

So a PC with CL shenanigans is a very high CR?  I dunno if my UM/ScM for AyeGill's game really qualifies as a CR 60... a real wizard that high could gank him easily.

No, he said your caster level equals your CR, not your CR equals your caster level. It's a variable definition, not a mathematical equation.
It may or may not also be intended to outright hard-cap your caster level to your CR; I've seen that kind of houserule too before, and it worked fairly well.

Yes and yes. At a minimum, it would cap your CL.

oooooh.  OK.  I misread that, clearly.

Now the question is, what about feats, class features, items, etc. that affect your caster level?  Can they raise it above your CR?  So in my example of an ECL 16 Wiz 5/Knight of the Weave 1/Ultimate Magus 7/Shadowcraft Mage 3, what are the various CLs?

I suppose I could look at various things that give CL boosts, but in general, if it's kept equal to your CR (again, probably your character level for most PCs), I don't see why a full caster would need such boosts. They tend to be the sorts of things exploited in all sorts of CO tricks.


Again, a lot of this was to help a bit with multiclassing, but even still, I think you'll likely fall behind multiclassed compared to a straight caster. That being said, can you think of any abuses for this? The closest I can come up with is dipping one or three levels into a caster class to get a good 1st or 2nd level spell available with level-appropriate DCs and CL, but that still isn't that shocking to me. Sure, a fighter with some Sorcerer levels can cast Glitterdust with a solid DC four times a day or so at the cost of some HP and +2 BAB, but is that even a big deal?

[phaedrusxy]

oooooh.  OK.  I misread that, clearly.

Now the question is, what about feats, class features, items, etc. that affect your caster level?  Can they raise it above your CR?  So in my example of an ECL 16 Wiz 5/Knight of the Weave 1/Ultimate Magus 7/Shadowcraft Mage 3, what are the various CLs?

It would be 16. For everything. The same as a fighter 15/wizard 1 using those rules.

[oslecamo]

Sure, a fighter with some Sorcerer levels can cast Glitterdust with a solid DC four times a day or so at the cost of some HP and +2 BAB, but is that even a big deal?

Not even that actually, since unless the Fighter invested heavily in Int, the DC still won't be that hot. May be good to pick some self buffs and utility tough.

Overall this is a pretty solid fix. I would say its weak point it's precisely that it's too solid, and many people would complain they can't pimp their CL anymore.

[sirpercival]

One word: Ardent.

[oslecamo]

I believe we're talking about CL here, not ML. Everybody knows that unrestricted magic-psionic transparecy is a can of dire worms.

[RobbyPants]

Overall this is a pretty solid fix. I would say its weak point it's precisely that it's too solid, and many people would complain they can't pimp their CL anymore.

Yeah. My hope is that CL = your CR should probably be good enough to do anything the game expects you to do.

One word: Ardent.

I believe we're talking about CL here, not ML. Everybody knows that unrestricted magic-psionic transparecy is a can of dire worms.

The way 3.5 psionics work, it'd be really hard to handle without a lot of retooling, given how PP work with augments, ML, and stuff like Overchannel.

I haven't worried about psionics, yet. Personally, if I were handling psionics, I'd probably rewrite the psion class to have a chassis very similar to the beguiler/dread necro/war mage, and have it specialize in stuff like telekineses, telepathy, and a few other thematic things, have it use spell slots and normal magic rules, and call it a day.

[oslecamo]

Overall this is a pretty solid fix. I would say its weak point it's precisely that it's too solid, and many people would complain they can't pimp their CL anymore.

Yeah. My hope is that CL = your CR should probably be good enough to do anything the game expects you to do.

If it's applying to the monsters as well, why wouldn't it? You just evened up the playing field.

One problem  that may come up is players that take LA races. And then perform LA buyoff. What would be their CR exactly?

[dman11235]

I like this.  My only concerns: LA creatures, DCs (I say base the DC off of CR as well), multiclass, and CL increasing things.

The LA should be obvious, as are the DC and CL increasing things, but for multiclass: After level 17 (18 sorc), you gain no new spell levels, only spells per day.  Those aren't too bad a loss, but the CL is.  The two problems with multi-classing as a caster are the CL and the spell levels.  This gets rid of one of them.  Personally, I don't think it's much of a problem.

Question on psionics: why would it be a problem?  If your ML equals your CR, then you're manifesting at the appropriate level.  hmm, this actually helps LA races because they lose out on CL/ML usually.  That's a HUGE hit, even compared to the spell levels being delayed.  So with psionics, multiclassing is better, because some low level powers actually scale, unlike their spell counterparts.  Particularly the damage based ones, they scale with no cap.

[oslecamo]

Question on psionics: why would it be a problem?  If your ML equals your CR, then you're manifesting at the appropriate level.  hmm, this actually helps LA races because they lose out on CL/ML usually.  That's a HUGE hit, even compared to the spell levels being delayed.  So with psionics, multiclassing is better, because some low level powers actually scale, unlike their spell counterparts.  Particularly the damage based ones, they scale with no cap.

And that's the problem with psionics right there. They can cheat by having lower level powers replicate much higher level effects. Psionic dominate (5th level) would keep scaling until it can replicate Dominate Monster (9th level), while Astral construct scales all the way to 9th level power. Everybody would just dip psionic classes, never magic classes.

[RobbyPants]

One problem  that may come up is players that take LA races. And then perform LA buyoff. What would be their CR exactly?

Well, a creature with an LA also has a CR entry, which is often several levels lower than the LA. So, buying off the LA technically does nothing to the CR, other than that your advancement is being slowed down because you're spending XP to do so.

Question on psionics: why would it be a problem?  If your ML equals your CR, then you're manifesting at the appropriate level.  hmm, this actually helps LA races because they lose out on CL/ML usually.  That's a HUGE hit, even compared to the spell levels being delayed.  So with psionics, multiclassing is better, because some low level powers actually scale, unlike their spell counterparts.  Particularly the damage based ones, they scale with no cap.

It's more of how augments and point costs work. That, and some powers work quite well at minimum cost, while others need to be augmented to the maximum amount to be level-appropriate.

Point-based stuff can already be a pain to balance, and the unevenly applied augmenting rules only make things worse.

[oslecamo]

One problem  that may come up is players that take LA races. And then perform LA buyoff. What would be their CR exactly?

Well, a creature with an LA also has a CR entry, which is often several levels lower than the LA. So, buying off the LA technically does nothing to the CR, other than that your advancement is being slowed down because you're spending XP to do so.

Let me give you a simple example, the drow.
It's CR+1 and LA+2.
So he starts behing normal CL, but eventually at late game, he would completely get rid of her her LA, while still counting as CR+1, thus pulling ahead in CL to other party members once exponential exp catches up.

[RobbyPants]

Let me give you a simple example, the drow.
It's CR+1 and LA+2.
So he starts behing normal CL, but eventually at late game, he would completely get rid of her her LA, while still counting as CR+1, thus pulling ahead in CL to other party members once exponential exp catches up.

Lets make sure I'm understanding what you're saying, the LA buy-off rules, and my own rules. For now, we'll assume LA works exactly as-is (which is, dubious at best, of course ).

ECL 3
Everyone in the group has a 3rd level PC. You roll up a level 1 drow wizard. Your CL is 2 because your CR is 2, despite being ECL 3. This is technically a boost to the current system, but not much of one, really.

ECL 8
Everyone is level 8. You now have 6 class levels, so you can buy-off one of level of LA for some XP. You're now ECL 7, but still 6th level, still CR 7, and still have a CL of 7. At this point, all of your numbers match up, but you're a level behind the party. You start earning XP faster until you catch up to the rest of the group.

ECL 10
Everyone is level 10. You've caught up and you're ECL 10, presumably, and you have 9 class levels, allowing you to buy off the rest of your LA. So you do, you're now level 9, ECL 9, but still CR 10, and thus CL 10. So, at this point, you're casting like the rest of the group, but you're an actual level behind. Again, you start gaining XP faster than everyone else.

Within a few levels, you will be the same level as the group, but your CR will be higher, and you'll be a better caster.


So, did I understand this all right? That being said, I think it highlights the existing problems of the LA system and the buy-off "fix" pretty well, and it exaggerates them both a bit.

Personally, I guess I'd rather just avoid LA all together, and come up with some way to either re-write LA 0 versions of various races, or figure out ways to tweak it with new RHD, or something.


Good catch!

[oslecamo]

Yeah, that was what I meant, and yes, it's indeed more of an issue with the whole LA thing than your fix.

Now that I think about it, in my monster classes project I've been doing lots of abilities (including SLA CL) tied to full HD for quite some time now. Geting rid of LA is the way to go.

[dman11235]

Slight necromancy here, but what about instead of CR you go with ECL?  Well, as far as players go.  For hostile NPCs, you'll do CR?  Or still ECL?

Otherwise, maybe have it be casting classes grant full CL (not necessarily spells known or per day), and non-casting classes grant 1/2?  Make it more like martial adepts?