Dominion (card game)

[Bloody Initiate]

Chapel could be a good one to have if you're the only one, but it might not be that strong since you wouldn't be buying it on your first turn. Other veto cards could be nasty, like Possession or Saboteur. But you don't have a lot of control over what you get, so it's not likely to be an overpowered card. It's just a really random card with that looming potential.

Chapel just doesn't seem to hit as hard most of the time when surrounded by all the expansion cards. Other cards do similar things without being so small. Forge for example would let you trash as many cards as you like and potentially get one back that you wanted (though you might also dislike that you MUST get something back). Also with Black Market in play you have no safety from attack cards, so Chapels just don't fare as well.

Possession I would aim to kill by vetoing anything that costs a potion, as I said. Saboteur could come out, but unlike many attack cards it gives nothing to its wielder, I never saw it as overpowered so much as unpleasant. As a card it's not a game-winner, it's just remarkably unfun to see in play.

[RobbyPants]

Chapel just doesn't seem to hit as hard most of the time when surrounded by all the expansion cards. Other cards do similar things without being so small. Forge for example would let you trash as many cards as you like and potentially get one back that you wanted (though you might also dislike that you MUST get something back). Also with Black Market in play you have no safety from attack cards, so Chapels just don't fare as well.

There are other ways to trash, and some of them are almost as good as Chapel if your goal is getting rid of Coppers, or something. As for Forge, I like the card, but it doesn't really compare to Chapel. You can always have a Chapel in your first two turns. You can't get a Forge until you have $7, which means you're also passing up a Gold to get it (although, this is in an expansion that has Platinum, so it might not be such a big deal). You could probably have used your Chapel at least three times before buying a Forge. I think my favorite pseudo-Chapel is Steward. It can be used early in the game, and it has two other useful abilities to not make you hate seeing it in your hand later in the game.

On a related note, what are your experiences with Forge? It always looks so neat, but I've never had any real solid plays with it. I've used it in the past to prune out some Coppers or Curses (since they add nothing to the cost of what you get).

Saboteur could come out, but unlike many attack cards it gives nothing to its wielder, I never saw it as overpowered so much as unpleasant. As a card it's not a game-winner, it's just remarkably unfun to see in play.

It's power isn't in what you get; it's in what you take from the other person. I mean, attack cards that also give you +2 cards or +$2 are nice too, but attacks are good in that they slow the other guy down. If your actions spent on attacking slow the other guy(s) down more than what you would have been sped up by buying an action or treasure, then it's a win on your part.

But, yeah, Saboteur is just plain unpleasant; far more than any other attack card, and it really changes the experience of the game. If I were used to playing "friendly" games of Dominion, I'd get pretty pissed the first time that was pulled on me.

[Bloody Initiate]

I was mostly talking about Chapel in a game with Black Market. I didn't mean to compare it to Forge just as a card. Forge would lose on cost alone.

As for my experiences with Forge, I don't like it much. The first time I used it I didn't read the "exactly" part so I wasted it completely. I have used it to some good effect before, especially if I pay attention to the amount of buys I have. It's a good way to surprise someone I think. The trouble, in my view, is that by the time you can afford Forges you can probably afford everything you were going to use them to get. Trashing a gold and a silver to make a platinum sounds like a fair deal, but golds and silvers really aren't that bad. Forges just end up feeling like a card that takes and gives when every other card at that cost level mostly just gives. I still do buy them, but I should probably stop because I tend not to use them. I played one game where I discarded my Forges almost every time they made it into my hand.

I'm sure you can use Forges like you use Chapels, but I never bothered with the Chapel strategy either.

I understand the point of Saboteur is that it's pure attack, but since it doesn't give you anything other than that attack it tends to be a card you play only after you've built up the actions to use it. That said, when I have a choice between helping myself and hurting someone else, I tend to choose the hurting. Just because I figure my hand doesn't get any worse by hurting them, so I can still play the hand I drew, but their draws get progressively worse.

[RobbyPants]

I was mostly talking about Chapel in a game with Black Market. I didn't mean to compare it to Forge just as a card. Forge would lose on cost alone.

Oh, my bad. I took that out of context.

I still do buy them, but I should probably stop because I tend not to use them. I played one game where I discarded my Forges almost every time they made it into my hand.

That's kind of how I feel. It looks good sitting there in the supply, but it seems so often, I look at it and my remaining four cards and either don't see a good way to trash them or I see me being able to buy something better anyway, and wish it were a Gold, instead.

That said, when I have a choice between helping myself and hurting someone else, I tend to choose the hurting. Just because I figure my hand doesn't get any worse by hurting them, so I can still play the hand I drew, but their draws get progressively worse.

Yeah, this is purely anecdotal, but when I play two-player, it seems if one person attacks and the other doesn't, the aggressor almost always wins.