[3.P] Retraining class levels

[ImperatorK]

When you level up, you can replace one level of a class that you have for a level of another class (most probably the class you take the new level in).
For example: Fighter 3 levels up. He wants to either become a Wizard completely or he wants to become a gish and he doesn't need that 3rd Fighter level (he gains nothing of worth from it). He takes Wizard as the 4th level and changes 3rd level of Fighter into a Wizard level. Now he is Fighter 2/Wizard 2. The next level he will be Fighter 1/Wizard 4. And then Wizard 6 (or he will take some gish PrC). You still have to meet the requirements for PrCs with levels other then the PrCs (although other PrCs count).
If the class level has lower HD, you deduct the difference between the averages of the two HDs. for example Fighters d10 is 5.5. You swap it with a Wizards level, d6, 3.5. The difference is 2, so you subtract that from your characters hp. If the new HD is higher, you add. The same with skillpoints.

What do you think?

[archangel.arcanis]

what are the limitations? If you can always change out all class levels then it becomes an odd choice of "what do I want to be this level?" with no consistency in the character. what else are they allowed to change on retraining? If they can't change feats they are likely screwed, if they can they always have the best options.

It works fine for a quick and dirty solution as long as you don't have people trying to abuse it. Outside of that it is likely too simplistic and will be abused.

[ImperatorK]

Um... There is already retraining of feats in PHB2. This would be an additional option for it.
The limitation is stated - one level per level up.
How could you abuse it?

[SneeR]

Um... There is already retraining of feats in PHB2. This would be an additional option for it.
The limitation is stated - one level per level up.
How could you abuse it?

Turn fighter 10 into Wizard 20 with no penalties before epic?

[RobbyPants]

The idea is interesting, but it seems like a pain to actually handle in practice. I suppose if you don't roll for HP, it's easy to figure out what you lose when you swap out a level, but if you rolled, you literally need to track what you rolled each level. It'll also be a bitch to track skill points. Gaining them piece by piece and purchasing class skills is one thing; buying them back is even worse!

You'll also have to make sure you don't violate any prereqs each time. Not too hard, but something to keep an eye out for. Other than that, I'm assuming you could use bootstrapping to make a PrC meet it's own requirements, huh? It wouldn't work for every PrC, but if you have one that says you need BAB +5 and 8 ranks in a skill, you could keep retraining out other levels so long as your BAB never dipped below +5 and that you didn't trade back any skill ranks.

Depending on how you handle dropping skill points, you could run into class skill/cross-class skill shenanigans where you buy and sell them at different rates to net an increase in points. I'm not sure how to police all of this without spreadsheets!

[archangel.arcanis]

Um... There is already retraining of feats in PHB2. This would be an additional option for it.
The limitation is stated - one level per level up.
How could you abuse it?

I read it before your edit included the 1/level. I thought this was intended to supplant the current retraining rules rather than expand on them, i'm not terribly familiar with them so I figured they had a retraining of class option already. Robby already laid out some of my thoughts on how it could be abused so I won't repeat them.

[ImperatorK]

The 1/level was there from the start. I only added the "(most probably the class you take the new level in)" and "The next level he will be Fighter 1/Wizard 4. And then Wizard 6 (or he will take some gish PrC)", IIRC. And even if not, the example is quite clear what was meant.

Turn fighter 10 into Wizard 20 with no penalties before epic?

I don't know how did you come to that conclusion.

@ Robby
Easy solution. Play 3.P, like me.
Hm. Better add to the title that it's mainly for 3.P...

[archangel.arcanis]

The 1/level was there from the start. I only added the "(most probably the class you take the new level in)", IIRC. And even if not, the example is quite clear what was meant.

Turn fighter 10 into Wizard 20 with no penalties before epic?

I don't know how did you come to that conclusion.

Then I obviously missed it because your post was half that size when I read it. And your example wasn't that clear. Either way not a big deal. You addressed my perceived concerns.

[SneeR]

Turn fighter 10 into Wizard 20 with no penalties before epic?

I don't know how did you come to that conclusion.

From what I understand, Fighter 10 could level to become Fighter 9/Wizard 2, right? So, then it goes Fighter 8/Wizard 4 (gaining a wizard level, then converting another fighter level), Fighter 7/Wizard 6, Fighter 6/Wizard 8, Fighter 5/Wizard 10, etc. until you have a 20th level pure Wizard.

It doesn't say anywhere that you have to change your most recent level, only that what you leveled up in most recently is what you would probably convert a previous level into.

So, yes. Fighter 10->Wizard 20.

EDIT: I don't know how you would adjudicate gaining spells in this way, probably just base it on your growing Wizard level. Either way, you can just spend money to get scrolls.

EDIT, the 2nd: I actually like that. Melee characters start to lose their pizzazz at mid-levels. Magic is really the only way to survive an intense campaign. So, abandoning martial prowess in favor of true power is flavorfully appropriate.
Just pointing out that this variant virtually replaces the improved casting rate that Ur-Priest gets, since you can just go full wizard before epic if you turn back before level 11.

[ImperatorK]

Yeah, you're right. I misunderstood you.
Yes, that is possible. But you can restrict it like you want. It's just an idea. I'm sure to take fluff and RPing into account before I'll allow my players to abuse the houserules that I made to make their fun greater.

[RobbyPants]

@ Robby
Easy solution. Play 3.P, like me.
Hm. Better add to the title that it's mainly for 3.P...

I don't know enough about PF to know what this means. Is it that you gain average HP instead of rolling?

I don't know if it matters or not, but at level 10, you could simply have all 10 levels of a PrC and no base class levels. Is that your intent? From what I'd see, assuming your base class is full BAB and your PrC has a prereq of BAB+5, it'd work like this:

Level 5:
Base 5

Level 6:
Base 4/PrC 2

Level 7:
Base 3/PrC 4

Level 8:
Base 2/PrC 6

Level 9:
Base 1/PrC 8

Level 10:
PrC 10


Is that what you were thinking? It obviously wouldn't work for PrCs that piggybacked on an existing mechanic, like a spellcasting PrC or something.

[SneeR]

Oh, that's sneaky!

[ImperatorK]

I suppose if you don't roll for HP, it's easy to figure out what you lose when you swap out a level, but if you rolled, you literally need to track what you rolled each level.

You could do it like that: If the class level has lower HD, you deduct the difference between the averages of the two HDs. for example Fighters d10 is 5.5. You swap it with a Wizards level, d6, 3.5. The difference is 2, so you subtract that from your characters hp. If the new HD is higher, you add. That should be simple enough. you could do the same with skillpoints. If the new level has less, you subtract the difference, if more, you add.

Depending on how you handle dropping skill points, you could run into class skill/cross-class skill shenanigans where you buy and sell them at different rates to net an increase in points. I'm not sure how to police all of this without spreadsheets!

Official Retraining option from PHB2 already deals with skillpoints and it can be abused.

I don't know if it matters or not, but at level 10, you could simply have all 10 levels of a PrC and no base class levels. Is that your intent?

No, you would still need to meet the PrC requirements.

[RobbyPants]

Official Retraining option from PHB2 already deals with skillpoints and it can be abused.

I knew that, but I wanted to make sure you were cool with it.

No, you would still need to meet the PrC requirements.

You mean you have to meet them with levels other than itself?

[ImperatorK]

Yes. Is there a problem with that?