High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom

[Raineh Daze]

Summaries would be nice. I don't even know who's who... @_@

Ah, I getcha. Sure! I'll work on one. Maybe sometimes this week in the evening/night as right now I have so many things to take care of I am almost feeling stress.
I'm working to increase my annual income with real estate investments and there's a lot of numbers to crunch and investigate while working full time. And I have deadlines before the government changes the game with new laws that are harder to take advantage of.

Umm... sorry that I didn't find a good time to mention this before?

[oslecamo]

Just to point out it's not the party's new turn yet. Mao still needed to post the swift action, and just a swift action, then I need to make the general turn update, in particular Katherine who's fast enough to catch up with the mob after Mao drew the shots.

[Anomander]

It's all right. Didn't mean to make it sound like it is a bother. I figured it couldn't take that much time after all so I just got it done right away before I give myself a chance to forget about it. I'll maybe polish it later.

Mao still needed to post the swift action, and just a swift action

Already have. Just not sure which will apply but I've set an order of priority based on what can be done. I'll roll hit/dmg if it ends up with it being an attack and update the energy meter as per the total flight distance traveled. Off t'ill tomorrow night then.

Woo, got 5 minutes;

Anyway the size changing is not an essential part of the stance. The multiplying to form a mob is and the mecha rules have no clause against multiplication. If anything the copies being tiny sized is a nerf more than anything else.

Something that just stroke me that then it becomes difficult to interpret what the maneuver really does.
It first makes you tiny, which now doesn't happen - then it makes copies of you in the new size, which never changed - You then become a mob of yourself.
The original non-copy mecha never changed size, so even if it made a bunch of tiny copies of itself, it itself isn't tiny, so it maybe cannot form a mob with itself (depends if by all of them having to be the same type you refer to the creature type). If the stance effectively turns the mecha into a mob, the resulting mob cannot be of a size bigger or smaller than the mecha itself is. If it just makes copies of the original's size and mobs them up, that makes a pretty massive amount of large mechas since the stance doesn't account for the fact that the number of copies is meant to be Tiny only.

[SorO_Lost]

Just to point out it's not the party's new turn yet. Mao still needed to post the swift action, and just a swift action, then I need to make the general turn update, in particular Katherine who's fast enough to catch up with the mob after Mao drew the shots.

Ahh, cool. I was like new round and nothing for us? Well I'm pretty sure Kuro captured some guys...

[SorO_Lost]

You know, if you're willing to skip out on Arsenal's unique properties and have the cash normal weapons are simply the way to go.

Since Weapons have no cap, they simply are designed for X creature, you can create a Colossal+++ weapon for a mech to wield. Base cost, Weight, and HP all double per Size modification so upgrading to Large, Huge, Gargantuan, Colossal, Colossal+ (mech large), Colossal++ (mech huge), & Colossal+++ (mech gargantuan) creates a x128 modifier with +7 damage upgrades (+8 if you buy your mech some strongarm bracers).

Most WSA become redundant, like adding Flaming to a Gargantuan Mech Greatsword is a +0.04% increase in damage but Splitting is very potent.  Hank's Energy Bow, works out to 8k for the +2, 100gp for the composite, 300gp for masterwork, leaving 14.2k for the unique trait. Upgrading this to a +2 Splitting Colossal+++ Energy Bow in turn produces a total cost of 77,200gp, if Size chances are respected it deals 24d6+StrMod+PowerAttack Force damage which completely bypasses Damage Reduction and you get at least six attacks per turn. @30 Str no-PA that's 564 damage (which isn't even enough to sunder it's self).

It's enough you'll outpace even my expected lv14 damage and come on par with Andomander's current. This might be an easy solution for some people who are struggling in the DPR department.

[Raineh Daze]

Wouldn't that just count as a mecha weapon of size gargantuan? Even if it doesn't, I don't recall the damage dice increasing in powers of two.

[SorO_Lost]

Wouldn't that just count as a mecha weapon of size gargantuan? Even if it doesn't, I don't recall the damage dice increasing in powers of two.

The dice advance at a "+2=x2"-like rate.

The bow deals 2d6 at Medium, 3d6 Large, 4d6 Huge, 6d6 Gargantuan, & 8d6 Colossal per RC. If you'll notice the trend there, Huge is Mediumx2, Gargantuan is Largex2, Colossal is Hugex2, etc. We even know for a fact 8d6 upgrades to 12d6 per Savage Species giving us a canonical Colossal+ figure which is again fits the model because it equals Gargantuanx2. So Colossal+++, two sizes larger than the last provable example, when following the designed pattern would be Colossal+x2 or 24d6.

I actually have no clue is Arsenal is set in stone or scaled to "Medium" Mechs, but due to it's widely odd values (9d10 damage!) even if it did change per Mech Size you need Ols to rule on how to upgrade those odd values. Likewise there is no indication you can Enchant them, etc. Lots of vague considerations in that area.

[Raineh Daze]

12 times the damage and 128 times the cost. Wow. xD

[SorO_Lost]

12 times the damage and 128 times the cost. Wow. xD

Yeah but most weapons are pretty cheap to begin with. It's probably why the Gundam Sandrock ran around with a submachine gun and two swords instead of fancy mech gear

Also I was off on Hank's Bow. Masterwork is included into the base cost meaning it' also affected by the cost modifier, the bow costs 115,400gp. Still, you can always just buy two Longswords if you need the upgrades or w/e. Even a simple run of the mill Heavy Crossbow deals 16d8 for 6,400gp which really isn't bad. You're kind of just trading out the Mech's Dex-to-Damage & a special property or two for more damage.

Given the enormous Attack bonuses Ols and Andomander is throwing around like candy. The -4 for nonproficiency is pretty laughable, throw Harpoons!

[Anomander]

Since Weapons have no cap, they simply are designed for X creature, you can create a Colossal+++ weapon for a mech to wield.

Aside from Oslecamo's homebrew stuff that specifically enlarge a creature beyond the colossal size, why do people assume there are weapon base damage increases based on size higher than those available for a given base damage die at colossal? It seems that if an ability makes you deal damage as if you were one size category bigger, it can't give you damage beyond the maximum size there is, and there is no size bigger than colossal (so such abilities would be useless to a colossal creature).

Although there is no size category larger than Colossal, the oldest epic dragons deal more damage with their attacks than other Colossal dragons, as shown on the Epic Dragon Face and Reach and Epic Dragon Attacks tables below. In addition, the breath weapon of the oldest epic dragons is a larger cone than most Colossal dragons possess. The size modifier for these dragons remains -8.

Colossal+ seems to only be a way to show that the epic dragons get more powerful than others of the same size. Even the space they occupy is the same rather than actually getting bigger.


I'm still amazed none of our super large party members wanted that Sol weapon we got from the dragon with the huge crit-range and the base medium damage of 3d6 (12d6 at colossal).

[ketaro]

Because I literally am locked into using, almost exclusively, my Yokai-Forged Blades

Didn't Rainy take a giant axe from the dragon tho for pretty much that very reason?

[SorO_Lost]

Aside from Oslecamo's homebrew stuff that specifically enlarge a creature beyond the colossal size, why do people assume there are weapon base damage increases based on size higher than those available for a given base damage die at colossal?

Because your citation is found in a entry that adds a 9th Size to the game and specifically is for True Dragons. Also, if you have an uncapped example that lists four things and specific rules saying you advance to the fifth thing it's only logical you don't stop at the fourth.

Oh, and there is this.

A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder.In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

If you wanted to design a Colossal+++ Dagger to be wielded by a Colossal Dragon as a Two-Handed weapon you can.

The only debatable part is what should you call it, Colossal+++? Mech Gargantuan? Macro Gargantuan? Col+3? And who the heck cares as long as you get what you mean across.

[Anomander]

Because your citation is found in a entry that adds a 9th Size to the game and specifically is for True Dragons. Also, if you have an uncapped example that lists four things and specific rules saying you advance to the fifth thing it's only logical you don't stop at the fourth.

Yes, and it clearly indicates that there is no size larger than colossal. It even explains that the Colossal+ entry isn't a real size category and is just meant to indicate that dragons at that size get better damage and breath range and the like. Though the space and reach doesn't change... which is odd, since technically every size has two kinds; long/tall, a bigger dragon could have gotten the better reach for also being tall, but it doesn't.
Is Colossal+ used anywhere else in the manuals as something else than something proper to epic dragons for that very and only purpose?
Anything core that refers to a size bigger than colossal?

Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

Yes. Doesn't that imply that a weapon cannot be bigger than the maximum size a creature can be?
If you make a Colossal+++ weapon, which is designed for a Colossal+++ creature, it would require that a Colossal+++ creature is possible.
But it seems to cap a Colossal.

Didn't Rainy take a giant axe from the dragon tho for pretty much that very reason?

Only the Sol blade did high base damage. Except maybe the ranged weapon. The others did pretty normal damage but the axe increased the Strength score.

[Raineh Daze]

I took the axe because it had side bonuses. Thing isn't mecha sized, though. Well, except so much as Amaterasu herself happens to be capable of headbutting your average mecha. xD

Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

Yes. Doesn't that imply that a weapon cannot be bigger than the maximum size a creature can be?
If you make a Colossal+++ weapon, which is designed for a Colossal+++ creature, it would require that a Colossal+++ creature is possible.
But it seems to cap a Colossal.

Well... we've got monster classes in here. Monster class rules explicitly extend scaling beyond Colossal. Therefore, it doesn't cap.

[Anomander]

Aye, I did say aside from Oslecamo's homebrew stuff that specifically enlarge a creature beyond the colossal size.
I'm mostly asking this since I've seen plenty of people try to optimize stuff as if there were sizes beyond colossal in the core rules and don't remember seeing any rule that supports it.

Though, unless I missed something, this is the homebrew rule you refer to for handling creatures supposed to get bigger than colossal:

I combined two monster classes with gestalt/monster hybrid and now I'm suposed to grow beyond colossal! What happens?
Your character's space and reach increase by 10 feet, height is doubled, its natural armor increases by an extra 1, its natural weapons increase one die size, gain an extra +4 on grapple/bullrush/trip and similar maneuvers that care about size.

It doesn't state that there is a bigger size category, it only determines how your stats are affected whenever you are supposed to get bigger again but you are already colossal. Whether it allows you to get a weapon designated for something larger than colossal, while logical, may need to be specified because it only increases the natural weapons.

[SorO_Lost]

Oooh look Anomander is in another rules argument with his follow players and complaining Ols's homebrew is "ambiguous" to interpret things in his way. You know, not even a few hours before that post you just tried saying your personal interpretation an expansion that added a 10th size referencing Core only has 9 Categories refuted the entire expansion as self contradiction. But that aside, you offered it as a rebuttal against me increasing weapon damage even through the Colossal+ entry increases damage beyond Colossal making it favor my point, not yours. Hell the entire Advanced entry is all about addressing the fact that Dragons have no maximum limit on Progression, just a categoric list that ends at Great Wyrm and rules that keep going which is a very good analog of the topic. And would you guess it, Ols's entry does the same thing on increasing damage beyond the Colossal category.

And oh look, you're still bitching. 

[Anomander]

Oooh look Anomander is in another rules argument with his follow players and complaining Ols's homebrew is "ambiguous" to interpret things in his way.

I asked you what made your interpretation of sizes correct, because I don't remember seeing anything that validates it. You have yet to do so.
I'm not complaining; I'm suggesting that if it is intended to create new size categories above colossal for weapons rather than only increasing the stats for that creature alone, it should perhaps clarify it because it doesn't state there is any other size category above colossal. I've never seen a monster entry Colossal+++, nor even a monster entry with Colossal+ that was an actual size increase so I'm curious where it is coming from in the core rules. Because so far it seems you are making assumptions off a creature table you've read poorly.

you just tried saying your personal interpretation

I'm just reading things as they are written. It says there are no sizes larger than colossal. If you insist on inventing new ones, then it feels like you are interpreting things to mean something else than what is written. Not me.
When you read "there is no size category larger than Colossal", what is it exactly that is subject to interpretation?

Colossal+ entry increases damage beyond Colossal making it favor my point, not yours.

Only if you misread the entry. It only increases the damage of the natural weapons of those dragons. Not the damage of the weapons they wield. You read it as an actual size category when the entry specifically explains that Colossal+ is only a indicator for colossal dragons that are better than other colossal dragon while still being colossal. Their size modifiers don't change, their space do not change. Their reach doesn't change. Nothing changes except a few specific things; natural weapon damage and breath range. It seems that one can only interpret that has an actual size category if they do not read what it is and only see it as a size category, which it isn't; it is the colossal size category with a bonus. If your assumptions are entirely based on the Colossal+ dragons getting a natural weapon damage increase, then you are trying to generalize something beyond what it is and to apply it to things it doesn't.

So, pray, what leads you to believe that there is a size category larger than colossal that is available to every creature.

[Raineh Daze]

Are we seriously having an argument over a point that I can make moot at level 16 by actually getting that size increase?

[SorO_Lost]

Are we seriously having an argument over a point that I can make moot at level 16 by actually getting that size increase?

Yes, yes he is.

And he is such an effective troll with his bait tactics. I mean look at this;

When you read "there is no size category larger than Colossal", what is it exactly that is subject to interpretation?

Here is what is actually printed.

Colossal+ Size: Although there is no size category larger than Colossal, ...

He literally misquoted the wrong entry as a strawman point in a game there expressly added more sizes ran by a DM that expressly clarified Size increases to stack indefinitely in case anyone asked. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Vecna, it got me to rejoin arguing a bit, but I suppose I am pretty easy like that.

Someone really just needs to start answering his posts with "fuck off" since apparently he won't go away on his own and I'm apparently too gullible.

[Raineh Daze]

You're the one that keeps up the ad hominem far more than needed and exacerbates things, though.

Anyway: we actually have rules in play for this, though the question is 'would a giant weapon in the hands of a mecha count as its normal size or mecha size'. Digging through sourcebooks to argue the point is a waste of time, and so is making it an argument about the character of the other players.