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Gaming Discussion => D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder => Topic started by: Power on April 09, 2022, 05:53:32 PM

Title: The Pathfinder Ubercharger
Post by: Power on April 09, 2022, 05:53:32 PM
May as well mention these stunts now:

Take a lance (https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Lance), which does double damage while charging with a mount (3x with Spirited Charge (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Spirited%20Charge)) and make it a +1 throwing (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Throwing) lance, which lets you apply the Named Bullet (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Named%20Bullet) spell since our lance is now a thrown weapon (maybe using Ascendant Spell (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ascendant%20Spell) at high levels for the extra crit multiplier, and if you are buffing pre-combat, using Sure Casting (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Sure%20Casting) and Piercing Spell (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Piercing%20Spell) metamagic is probably a decent way to make spell resistance irrelevant), and use the Charging Hurler (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Charging%20Hurler) feat so that you can throw the lance as part of a charge. Probably a Belt of Mighty Hurling (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Belt%20of%20Mighty%20Hurling) would do good too.

Now the lance is a ranged touch attack to hit the target that is an automatic critical threat, for an easy guaranteed 9x damage (12x with Ascendant Spell (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ascendant%20Spell) on Named Bullet (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Named%20Bullet)) and a 3x damage on your named bullet damage (9x if it was a nat 20 roll).

Clearly this isn't enough for us, so we should get pounce somehow (4 levels of Weretouched (https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Shifter%20Weretouched) Shifter or 11 levels of Barbarian (https://www.aonprd.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Barbarian) with greater beast totem rage power (https://www.aonprd.com/BarbarianRagePowers.aspx?Type=Totem)), obtain Ricochet Toss (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ricochet%20Toss) (use Martial Focus (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Martial%20Focus) if not a Fighter) or use a Blinkback Belt (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Blinkback%20Belt) (2H weapons like lances do not fit in the belt), and throw the lance iteratively because the FAQ (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9p1k) only prohibits getting the lance multiplier on iterative pounce attacks on the rather reasonable basis that you are aborting your momentum while collecting iteratives with a lance attack, but that means as a thrown lance attack you are still charging towards your enemy while making iteratives so maintaining charge momentum on your follow-up attacks is not a problem. Moreover, we can use Two-Weapon Fighting (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Two-Weapon%20Fighting) to throw a lance with each limb, so if we play a Kasatha (https://www.aonprd.com/RacesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Kasatha) race character (with 4 arms) and take Multiweapon Fighting (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Multiweapon%20Fighting), we can throw 4 +1 throwing named bullet lances with a pounce for 9x damage each before we even consider what we do with our remaining iteratives, haste (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=haste), Rapid Shot (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Rapid%20Shot), etc.

Anyway, I guess an 11th level character doing this sort of thing will get 10 lance attacks, 4 of which are basically auto-crit. That's pretty good, but if we add a Cyclops Helm (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Cyclops%20Helm) we can make it 5 auto-crits, which is better. If we get multiple cyclops helms we can just put on a fresh helm after each combat, which is pretty nice too. And considering these are all ranged attacks, we don't need to target the same foe with every lance attack, so probably we can clear out an entire encounter in one charge.

Of course, once you use a Cyclops Helm (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Cyclops%20Helm) I'd be remiss to not note that you can just auto-kill enemies with a +1 heart-piercing (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Heart-Piercing) bow (or arrow, for 1/50th the price) or +1 vorpal (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Vorpal) weapon and declaring your die roll to be a 20 for a no roll instakill.
Title: Re: The Pathfinder Ubercharger
Post by: Garryl on April 09, 2022, 06:31:20 PM
Named Bullet discharges after the first attack, so you'll only get the touch attack/auto-crit/bonus damage on the first attack. Using the mythic version only extends that to two attacks. Since you're already redrawing weapons in the middle of your full attack with the Blinkback Belt, why not just carry one such throwing lance for each attack you expect to make in your iteratives, all buffed with Named Bullet, so that every attack can benefit from the buff?

(Also, holy crap, how is a Cyclops Helm only 5600 gp?)
Title: Re: The Pathfinder Ubercharger
Post by: Power on April 09, 2022, 07:05:07 PM
Mainly because each lance is 8010gp so it gets rather expensive unless you're breaking the economy or using crafting with discounts. Just about the entire WBL (https://legacy.aonprd.com/coreRulebook/gamemastering.html#placing-treasure) of an 11th level character would be going into obtaining that many lances otherwise (You'd have a little under 2k gp to spare). Also, the mythic version isn't applying to two attacks since we don't have or spend mythic power on the ascendant named bullet. All we get is the boosted crit multiplier.

Also, nevermind the blinkback belt. You can't use it with lances since they're 2h size weapons.

And yes, Cyclops Helm is crazy. Not as crazy as Cyclopean Seer (https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Oracle%20Cyclopean%20Seer) Oracle (esp. with a Abundant Revelations (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Abundant%20Revelations) feat) though, since that Cyclops (https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Cyclops) flash of insight applies to any roll. Druids can also just use Summon Nature's Ally V (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Summon%20Nature%27s%20Ally%205) and hand a Cyclops a loaded crossbow with a +1 heartpiercing bolt in it for autokills. There's a whole thread on this flash of insight subject here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=19447.0).
Title: Re: The Pathfinder Ubercharger
Post by: dman on April 09, 2022, 10:30:18 PM
Super cool!
Title: Re: The Pathfinder Ubercharger
Post by: zook1shoe on April 10, 2022, 05:49:59 PM
not sure if it helps, but the Sohei Monk gets mounted combat feats as monk feats, bypassing the prereqs. you can get Mounted Skirmisher w just 1 monk level
Title: Re: The Pathfinder Ubercharger
Post by: Power on April 10, 2022, 08:20:32 PM
It invokes a rules debate on whether or not you count as charging when you use Mounted Skirmisher atop a charging mount and the PF mounted combat rules have always been messy. If you're not charging, it's pretty useless. You can just use a normal bow and arrow with a bunch of Named Bullet castings on arrows if all you're after is multiple Named Bullet x3 crits using ranged touch attacks, without resorting to Mounted Skirmisher.
Title: Re: The Pathfinder Ubercharger
Post by: zook1shoe on April 10, 2022, 10:04:25 PM
Just checking
Title: Re: The Pathfinder Ubercharger
Post by: Endarire on April 15, 2022, 01:59:37 PM
Thankee for this input!  Alleluia!
Title: Re: The Pathfinder Ubercharger
Post by: Power on August 10, 2022, 09:23:56 AM
Hm, looks like under PF damage multiplication rules, critical hits stack additively (so x3 = +200% damage) with multipliers, which means a spirited charge lance crit should only do 5x damage (100% + 200% + 200%). Not sure any GMs really run it this way as it makes spirited charge lance attacks deliver arbitrarily poor crits. I can understand stacking damage multipliers additively instead of multiplicatively, but I feel like crits ought to be a special exception here since making damage multipliers inherently devalue crits just feels wrong. It means a single, simple "doubling" of damage (charging with a lance or a Spirited Charge (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Spirited%20Charge) without lance) delivers less than that on average.

Well, there's another stunt for high-damage charging as a Paladin: Cast Saddle Surge (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Saddle%20Surge) and charge from max range for your CL and use Community-Minded (https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Community-Minded) region trait to make the morale bonuses last 3 rounds + Magical Knack (https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Magical%20Knack) magic trait to improve the Paladin's caster level. Gets better if your mount can pounce, such as a Sacred Servant (https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Paladin%20Sacred%20Servant) with the Animal (https://www.aonprd.com/DomainDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Animal) domain and a Boon Companion (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Boon%20Companion) feat (getting a Tiger (https://www.aonprd.com/DruidCompanions.aspx?ItemName=Cat,%20Big%20(Lion,%20Tiger)) or similar) or using Monstrous Mount (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Monstrous%20Mount) to get a Griffon (https://www.aonprd.com/DruidCompanions.aspx?ItemName=Griffon).
Title: Re: The Pathfinder Ubercharger
Post by: Power on October 20, 2022, 03:31:37 PM
So, I think I found something to make the ubercharger much better. There's a Sharding (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Sharding) weapon property that allows you to keep the original weapon in the hand because every time you go through the motion of throwing it it makes a short-lived duplicate that splits off towards your target instead (and you keep the original weapon in hand). And unlike the Dagger of Doubling (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dagger%20of%20Doubling), it provides no restriction that you don't get to duplicate spell effects. So if you get a +1 throwing sharding lance, it seems you can use Named Bullet on the original lance and it keeps throwing out copies with Named Bullet on it.

The more standard use of this Sharding property cloning magic effects is with things like a Paladin (https://www.aonprd.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Paladin)'s divine bond enhancement, a Greater Magic Weapon (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Magic%20Weapon%2C%20Greater) spell, Flame Arrow (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Flame%20Arrow), etc. but if that gets to work, then a Named Bullet (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Named%20Bullet) casting should work too.

By the way, another stunt for endless named bullets (which does not work with the lance) is Abundant Ammunition (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Abundant%20Ammunition) + Named Bullet (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Named%20Bullet) to get an endless container of Named Bullet projectiles.
Title: Re: The Pathfinder Ubercharger
Post by: Power on December 18, 2023, 03:34:19 AM
I'd missed the Winged Sword (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Winged%20Sword) spell which for 10 minutes/lvl lets you treat the targeted melee weapon as if it has the Throwing (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Throwing) property. That means you no longer need +1 throwing lances when you can just get a Wand of Winged Sword or have someone cast it.