Author Topic: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder  (Read 288221 times)

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #200 on: June 01, 2021, 06:29:30 PM »
thx!

is the omdura played roughly an inquisitor or warpriest?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 07:45:06 PM by zook1shoe »
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Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #201 on: June 06, 2021, 09:22:33 AM »
It's clearly a martial/caster hybrid but nothing is stopping you from playing it spellcaster style, although you may want one of those tricks to flexibly expand your spells known list. The Omdura (or Omdar if the character in question is male) class has enough party buff class features that can be used as a spellcaster, and putting a Defending property on a weapon along with a raised enhancement bonus (which can be combined with a weapon that had Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon preapplied for an easy +5 bonus at higher levels) will make use of the Divine Weapon feature to get a massive AC bonus instead of playing martial.

Casting off of both the Cleric and Inquisitor lists gives it a good enough spell list to be a primary spellcaster for most intents and purposes, especially if you throw in the Blessed by a God or Dragon feat from the same book, although that one uses Wis-based spell DCs.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2021, 01:16:17 PM by Power »

Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #202 on: August 13, 2021, 03:15:39 PM »
Rogue shifted to red tier 5. Without optimization tricks the entire class is pretty bad and essentially a walking bag of skills (with optimization tricks sneak attack is still a hilariously potent source of damage) in a system where anyone can do skills with only a slight bit of investment.

Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #203 on: September 28, 2021, 06:46:36 PM »
I think Gunslinger may qualify as tier 4 past the initial levels (5/6+). Then it can minimize its faults (low reload times, misfire) and spam sheer damage (with no versatility at all).
Most of the successes of Gunslingers have no relation to the features of the Gunslinger class and everything to do with the use of items/feats/etc to address problems with firearms and turn them into ridiculous sources of ranged touch attacks. The only good thing about a Gunslinger is dex to damage with firearms, but there are plenty of ways for other classes to add flat damage to attacks (and have higher attack bonuses) even if you can't get dex to damage. The only thing that makes Gunslingers look good is that it encourages you to abuse firearms, but anyone can do that, and most of them (Fighter (esp. Trench Fighter), Paladin, Bloodrager, Savage Technologist Barbarian, Brawler, Vigilante, Ninja, Rogue, Sohei Monk with versatile design firearm, Slayer, Gun Chemist Alchemist, Vivisectionist Alchemist, Inquisitor, Warpriest, Dawnflower Dervish Bard, Eldritch Archer Magus, etc.) are better at it than the Gunslinger. There is a reason why virtually every Gunslinger class build recommends multiclassing out of Gunslinger after level 5 or 6.

Quote
Kineticist prob varies by element as much as some classes vary by archetype. Aether (Telekinesis) Kineticist is easily the strongest for versatility while having a good blast (able to select any physical damage type, so less concern about DR/resistance) and could be a weak tier 3. Fire (limited utility, very resisted element) and Wood (almost no utility talents printed for it and fewer good ones) could slip to tier 5.
While there is a lot of variance depending on your pick of element, I feel like you have to try to drop below a weak Tier 4. It means picking bad elements, bad extra elements, bad infusions, and bad wild talents. Yes, it is certainly possible to make a weak Kineticist that is a poor damage dealer and has poor utility, but if you are a reasonably competent player, even bad elements shouldn't drop you below a Tier 4, especially since at level 7 you can get a second one. If it doesn't achieve a full tier shift, I'm not inclined to make a note of it.

And on that note, I'm not really seeing how aether Kineticist moves it all the way up to low Tier 3. It does have some useful utility powers but nothing that potent or versatile afaict. It seems more like optimized play achieving a tier bump than anything, and I get the feeling aether mostly looks as good as it does because the other elements have been lowering your standards a lot.

As for the examples you mentioned, if you go with wood Kineticist, you'd have to be an idiot to double up on wood at 7 (and making really bad decisions will let everyone go down 1 or more tiers), and even wood can let you do some stuff with Greensight and Kinetic Cover and Wall infusions (as well as using wild growth to get +4 to DCs) and if you just carry wood in your Bag of Holding or whatever you can do a lot with Wood Shape too. At high levels Wood Soldiers (ie. Wooden Phalanx) is rather useful if you just equip them with magic items and use them to break action economy or just spam them for manual labor on downtime. Their immunity to magic also makes them usable in combat against spellcasters if you just have someone use Resist Energy or Protection from Energy to ward them against fire.

Fire Kineticist meanwhile is generally lacking in utility but does manage to reach T4 in terms of damage dealing capability, especially if it's a blue flame Kineticist, until spell resistance (which should probably warrant a Greater Spell Penetration feat and Expanded Metakinesis for Piercing Spell as well as perhaps a Numerology Cylinder or Pipes of Dissolution), fire resistance (which is surmountable through Penetrating Infusion if it's not too big), and fire immunity (either you have an Evocation school Wizard in the party to convert your fire damage into something else, you have Star Cinder necklaces and Elemental Grip to hit those immune to the necklace, or you can accept your uselessness and switch to using items to contribute to the party) interrupt you anyway. But hardcore fire blaster Kineticists still tend to get aether as their third school at level 15 at least, if for no other reason than to add Aetheric Boost to their composite blasts, so at those high levels where you frequently deal with strong defenses you do pick up utility on the side. It's still a low T4 I think. "Capable of doing one thing quite well but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise" sums up the fire Kineticist really.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2023, 06:29:51 PM by Power »

Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #204 on: June 22, 2022, 02:52:45 PM »
Added Torag-worshiping Paladin to T3. All it does is give the Paladin two spells at 3rd level: Major Creation and Fabricate. And that's enough. Make some buildings, walls, traps (being able to Fabricate traps opens up a lot of options...), pillbox to fire out of, advantageous combat terrain, alchemical remedies, herbs, weapons, alchemical weapons/tools, armor (including animal barding and unusually sized armor), vehicles (Fabricate your own airship, why not), any mundane tools you can think of, cages, disguises, food, bridges, mobile hospital, etc. You can also Fabricate your way into creating secret hideouts or use Major Creation to create objects to hide behind or inside (you may want a Wand of Magic Aura to make it detect as nonmagical, however). As long as you can make the skill checks, those two spells do a ridiculous amount of work, even with the Paladin being restrained by his code of conduct from things like unlawful activity, dishonorable activity, and making poisons in particular. And even without the skillchecks, you can still make these spells do a lot, but you should really amp those skillchecks. Take a Voices of Solid Things region trait or Unsanctioned Knowledge or wands for Tears to Wine, Beloved of the Forge, Heroism, etc, spread a smattering of skill points around to make your favorite crafts all trained, maybe take Spirit Ridden, do some untrained skill optimization, whatever. There are plenty of ways to get decent Craft modifiers, even on a Paladin, if you care to. You can usually take 10 on these Craft checks anyway. Of course, this only makes it T3 once you actually have the spells, so from level 10 onwards.

Hunter moved down to red T3 for now, since he's still played like a martial and suffers from being a spontaneous caster wielding spell lists where situational spell access rules. The fact is that a Hunter has a much harder time casting spells like Wood Shape, Stone Shape, Speak to Stone, Speak to Animals, a spell to obtain Survival bonus, etc. than a Druid or Ranger will. Contemplating Medium's T4 status, because his spell list is very good for a 4th level caster, basically keeping up with 6th level casters, but his amount of spell slots sucks. Moved it to blue T4 for now. Spiritualist is another weirdo. I am contemplating removing it from low T3, but I'm unsure. His spell selection is not bad and his phantom is a bit silly (but rather strong once you stop trying to attack and ask yourself what other kinds of stunts you can do with an intelligent companion whose feats, skills, and magic equipment you dictate, like a Kindness phantom on an Aid Another optimization build, giving your phantom a Ring of Spell Storing or two, UMD build, etc.), but he's limited by spells known too (and a Mnemonic Vestment will probably demand psychic scrolls, so good luck getting those) and he's stuck with his phantom's build, plus he's vulnerable to Intimidate checks (not to mention the dreaded Antagonize feat), although you can gear your way past that. Ultimately it seems like the phantom can also be your party face if you want it, with that scaling charisma bonus. Basically both these classes have me wondering whether they are or aren't red T3. Both of these classes would've been far better off as prepared casters, or having some kind of power to get an extra spell known in a pinch, considering how much of their magic is situational. Spiritualist has it worst in that respect because unless the GM lets you use arcane and divine scrolls or makes psychic scrolls readily available, you're going to have a bad time filling out that Mnemonic Vestment (and even then, scrolls of Raise Dead, etc. aren't cheap).
« Last Edit: December 11, 2022, 05:06:15 PM by Power »

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #205 on: September 08, 2022, 11:48:10 AM »
just curious, any way to get this thread pinned like the 3.x Tier List is?
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Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #206 on: September 09, 2022, 08:16:50 PM »
Ask a mod. I don't really mind either way.

Also, moved Sylvan Trickster Rogue to T4. Witch hexes do a lot. Honestly, has the potential to get quite silly if you make an dex & int-based Rogue out of it (Elf, Tiefling, Keen Kitsune, Sylph, whatever) with at least 18 in both dex and int, since that opens up Slumber and Ice Tomb which is not hard to land when you have Misfortune Cackle and maybe Evil Eye on top of that while simultaneously leaving your Rogue with at least 12 skill ranks per level and decent attack and AC. If you actually make an 18 int Rogue out of it, this is probably a high T4 at least. Honestly though, this is still not a good Rogue, as it does very little to enhance a Rogue's strengths, other than the DR/Cold Iron. It's mostly just playing at being a Witch without spellcasting (or a familiar) and a Rogue without trapfinding. But hey, hexes are useful. Eh, maybe I should take it off the list, seeing as while it's definitely higher tier than the Rogue, this archetype isn't really a good approach to anything.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2022, 09:50:24 AM by Power »

Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #207 on: November 16, 2022, 02:32:22 PM »
Reworked mundane tiers a bit. Fighter raised to red T4, since Dueling Gloves and Advanced Weapon Training further strengthen the fighter's martial abilities and the bucket of feats approach does mean that Fighters can push their martial prowess pretty far for the combat methodology of their choosing, whether it's a TWF whip build for massive reach, a TWF throwing build, an archer build, or a reach weapon build, topped off with things like Lunge. Tbh T5 Fighters tend to be melee fighters without reach which I'm going to grant is a bad Fighter build decent players shouldn't be doing, even if the sword & shield build is a classic (whip & shield, esp. with Improved Whip Mastery and Lunge, works though). Vigilante moved to blue T5 as a large bucket of feats is a bit more powerful than I'd previously given it credit for. I'm operating under the assumption you aren't playing a Stalker Vigilante, which is pretty lousy barring special stunts.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2023, 02:50:11 PM by Power »

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #208 on: November 17, 2022, 01:21:42 PM »
one thing i wish the Vigilante had would have been a version of the feat Extra Rogue Talent
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Offline Nanashi

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #209 on: November 17, 2022, 04:42:58 PM »
IIRC they deliberately excluded that because many talents outright give two feats and it would be even more of a no brainer than other Extra X feats.

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #210 on: November 17, 2022, 04:44:21 PM »
makes sense
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Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #211 on: November 17, 2022, 06:19:41 PM »
Archetypes that damn near bolt a second class onto the Vigilante aside though, the Vigilante is really not that good. They're like a Fighter minus or Rogue minus for the most part. The Avenger (Fighter) build at least feels like a Fighter with better skills, if worse combat capabilities. Their social talents are largely bland as well, although the Skill Familiarity talent at 9th level has some potential by giving a bonus and allowing the Vigilante to always take 10 on any 4 skills of his choosing, such as UMD, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, Bluff, Sleight of Hand, Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Climb, Swim, Fly, Ride, and Handle Animal. The first two are pretty much must-haves (although the Wiscrani Ear social trait already lets you take 10 on Perception). If you use a social talent to gain Orator, Linguistics is also an option. UMD with the Always Prepared talent (which gives an upgraded Brilliant Planner feat) and Pragmatic Activator magic trait is not bad either, as you can just take 1 minute to retrieve any scroll or wand you want. May as well add the Kalistocrat's Acumen social talent (which I generally regard as a joke, as at higher levels you can just Teleport, Shadow Walk, or Plane Shift to a proper shopping destination) just to upgrade Brilliant Planner further. Actually if you do this WBLmancer path with the ability to pull items of your choosing out of your hat, you are probably T3 or higher, but I generally consider that sort of thing to be more WBLmancy than a class build and WBLmancy is really a high optimization stunt (which raises tiers anyway). But, turns out with the right social talents you can make a pretty solid WBLmancer as a Vigilante. Hmm...

Ironically the Barbarian, which I have as T4, is a flat-out T6 the moment he runs out of rage. The only reason he's in T4 despite his limited rage rounds courtesy of PF is because PF is rocket tag edition and in level 1 (possibly also 2) you will be one-shotting most enemies even without rage and the rage rounds situation improves quickly in a few levels, not to mention that there is the Berserker of the Society combat trait and the +1 extra rage round favored class bonus for dwarves, half-orcs, orcs, and strix even before getting into stuff like Drunken Rager archetype or a potion/casting of Rage or Barbarian Chew, so it's not hard to get a head start on the rage rounds issue, which even if you don't do anything typically solves itself around level 7 anyway. If you do a lot of combats per day though, the PF Barbarian will fall off in tiers without investment into more rage, but PF seems to enforce the limited encounters per day model more tightly due to the sheer amount of class features that will run out of gas (not just spellcasting) if you do that and the plethora of options that exist to let the party rest just about anywhere in any state instead of needing to set up camp and sleep for 8 unimpeded hours.

Honestly though, the rounds/day mechanic added to PF Barbarians was a mistake, and one that immediately shot all those rage powers that give skill bonuses in the foot. The entire Barbarian class runs off of its rage class feature and is blatantly intended to never be fighting without it, so presenting rage as a limited resource with limited rounds is just stupid. It really just strongly encourages rocket tag and limited encounters per day playstyles further, makes the game mechanics even more combat-focused than they already are, and it is frankly absurd that a level 5 Barbarian, if he has a whopping 16 constitution, is only capable of raging for one and a half minutes in an entire day unless a Wizard or Bard decides to cast Rage on him and concentrates for a whole day. Bards also had the rounds/day accounting shift made and it was a bad mechanic for them too. Not only did Lingering Performance become a necessary feat tax for all Bards, but it also just killed the ability of Bards to use non-combat performances, like Inspire Competence, Fascinate, or even using Inspire Courage to inspire battlefields, defenders in a siege, etc. unless the Bard uses a Tuned Bowstring and never stops shooting so he can drag out his performance endlessly. Both of these classes also saw that there was no longer any resource cost for ending and restarting a new performance each round (what is referred to as "cycling"). As such, Barbarians are now in the habit of rage-cycling every round (sometimes multiple times in a single round) in order to keep using once per rage rage powers and Bards will cycle Inspire Greatness on the party for fresh temporary HD each round. Probably the class to suffer the worst from rounds per day resource pools is the Stalwart Defender. It has no way of obtaining extra defensive stance rounds (short of obtaining more levels through another prestige class) and it's a class which is obviously supposed to be used for defensive playstyles (which drag out combats) except it runs out of defensive stance rounds with a quickness if you actually take the slow and sure route by playing defense instead of going full rocket tag.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2023, 02:52:17 PM by Power »

Offline Power

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Updated tiers a bit
« Reply #212 on: February 03, 2023, 04:39:00 PM »
Moved Cavalier and Samurai to red T4. I'd underrated the challenge ability and order boons. Also, with Chain Challenge and/or Monstrous Mount the class becomes more potent (the same goes for Unconquerable Resolve for Samurais). Honestly, with a 1 level Sohei Monk dip for Mounted Skirmisher as a Monk bonus feat (which ignores all prereqs), the class is pretty strong.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2023, 01:53:25 PM by Power »

Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #213 on: June 11, 2023, 08:46:01 AM »
Hm, still feel a bit weird about Slayer vs Fighter, as the Slayer largely simply feels like a better Fighter, getting a ton of bonus feats (and can skip feat prereqs for Ranger Combat Style, in case you want to do a 20 str dualwielding build, for instance), same HD, same starting wealth, and same BAB, but better saves (reflex and fort), much better skill ranks (6+int instead of 2+int), and can be the party trapfinder. It doesn't get weapon training (or Gloves of Dueling), but it does get studied target, sneak attack, and quarry, and it doesn't get armor training either.

I guess the Fighter tops in damage if he uses Weapon Spirit and Gloves of Dueling, maybe even Abundant Tactics (Barroom Brawler) for Dedicated Adversary on command, although a sneak attacking Slayer (and it doesn't need to land SA, tbh) hits hard too.

I dunno, thoughts? Fighter has a high damage ceiling but Slayer seems to have the better overall package while largely matching the Fighter for feats.

EDIT: Eh, reckon they're both fine where they are. This seems to be more like "not all low T4s are the same."
« Last Edit: June 11, 2023, 04:27:29 PM by Power »